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In UK Study, Girls Best Boys At Making Computer Games

New submitter Esteanil writes Researchers in the University of Sussex's Informatics department asked pupils at a secondary school to design and program their own computer game using a new visual programming language. The young people, aged 12-13, spent eight weeks developing their own 3D role-playing games. The girls in the classroom wrote more complex programs in their games than the boys and also learnt more about coding. The girls used seven different triggers – almost twice as many as the boys – and were much more successful at creating complex scripts with two or more parts and conditional clauses. Boys nearly always chose to trigger their scripts on when a character says something, which is the first and easiest trigger to learn.

312 comments

  1. Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 3, Funny

    ... Oh wait.

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    1. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 2

      I'm kind of wondering if this story might not necessarily even be applicable to game making. From TFA:

      “Given that girls’ attainment in literacy is higher than boys across all stages of the primary and secondary school curriculum, it may be that explicitly tying programming to an activity that they tend to do well in leads to a commensurate gain in their programming skills," said Dr Good.

      “In other words, if girls’ stories are typically more complex and well developed, then when creating stories in games, their stories will also require more sophisticated programs in order for their games to work.”

      I actually remember that from grade school, the girls were usually more literate and more patient for reading/story time than the boys were. The boys were more looking forward to recess/mischief/etc at those times. Especially the mischief part for me.

    2. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, girlish males, to be fair.

    3. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by jones_supa · · Score: 1

      Which is why girls dominate game making... Oh wait.

      Well, gaming is now 50:50, I'm sure game development will follow.

    4. Re: Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have only come across three in technical positions, one who under-rates herself and so doesn't really try but is a delightful person, one who was about average but impossible to get on with and a shocking racist and one who was impossible to get on with, wouldn't take criticism and took the most hackish option every time.

      Three is too small a subset to make a judgement but if there are few women in the industry all the reports in the world won't count for shit.

    5. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, this is why 12 year old girls write the games. Oh wait...

    6. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by JanneM · · Score: 1

      Also, when you look at more interesting and original, less copy-pasty games, female developers and designers seem to be more common than in the industry overall.

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    7. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Only if you count the mobile time-wasters and facebook type games. Games like Angry Birds may be fun but aren't exactly very complex as games and in terms of those that do game programming take much less complex effort. What some call 'Hardcore' or 'Core' Games are vastly dominated by males

    8. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In my experience, girls were still better at the mischief thing. At that age they tend to be socially smarter than boys, so they know better how to hurt someone's feelings.

    9. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "What very few annoying boys call 'Hardcore' or 'Core' Games are vastly dominated by males"

      FTFY

    10. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      This gap is only present temporarily. Boys catch up quickly in this area.

      Do we really want to do Male authors VS Female authors match up? Men are at least as good as women at writing. Note... MEN and WOMEN. Girls are probably better then boys. But it doesn't last.

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    11. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Temporary yes, but this is school we're talking about, where these differences get amplified and compounded consistently by the girl-oriented teaching methods.

      Kids at my son's school constantly lose out on recess for all sorts of reasons (everyone loses recess because one kid said something mean and wouldn't apologize, everyone loses recess because it's cold, everyone loses recess because there aren't enough supervisors this week), which sends teachers running to the school councilors to try and set up ritalinization appointments for the "unruly, over-excited" children (mostly boys). The kids do very little hands-on, ball sports and running in the yard are both prohibited outside of gym-class, and gym's usually what gets overwritten by some guest speaker, "special event", and so on and so forth.

      The longer they're penned up without an outlet, the worse it gets for any kid, but because that stress builds up faster in boys, they fall behind more quickly than the girls.

    12. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 2

      citation? The only female writers in games I can name off the top of my head... were the writers of the games: King's Quest and the Longest Journey.

      King's quest first off was not well written. It was fun but the stories were predictable and very derivative.

      The Longest Journey was good but you have to remember it was competing in the Adventure Game category which are very much about their stories.

      Now... now is the longest journey the BEST adventure game ever? It is all a matter of opinion, but I'd point at the Lucas Arts games first. And unless I'm mistaken that is 100 percent dick.

      Don't get me wrong, I want women to do these things and I think they're just as able as the guys. THAT SAID, we've been bombarded by a bunch of stupid studies and propoganda lately saying women are oppressed or would be suprerior in this or that.

      And never mind that the real issue is that women DO NOT WANT to be in game design. It isn't their career aspiration. How many boys when asked what they want to do will tell you "make games"... so many. How many girls? Practically none. And before you give me some presto intellectual argument about how they're just conditioned to not want to do these things... Wrong. Women and men gravitate to certain career paths. Women choose NOT to sit for hours in front of computers learning to code.

      Game design is not an especially rewarding career from a financial perspective. Women tend to do things that are fun for them or make them a lot of money. This holds true for men as well. The difference is that what is fun for men is not what is fun for women.

      Lots of guys can sit and code for hours all by themselves and have a great time doing it. They can walk away from it exhausted with a smile on their faces feeling like they accomplished something. Very few women have that reaction. I'm not saying that holds true for all women or that it should be that way... I am saying that for most women that is how it is.

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    13. Re: Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Tell me they're better when they actually make the games.

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    14. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um take away "casual" games...aka NON-twitch games....and that 50:50 split vanishes and is long gone...

      And then there's console gamers but we don't really count them as "real" gamers.

    15. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only female writers in games I can name off the top of my head... were the writers of the games: King's Quest and the Longest Journey.

      King's quest first off was not well written. It was fun but the stories were predictable and very derivative.

      Don't be misled by Sarah Hamilton's talented performance or April Ryan's believably female perspective. Ragnar Tørnquist wrote The Longest Journey, and he's definitely a man. King's Quest which you say is "not well written" was written by Roberta Williams, a genuinely female woman.

    16. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Women and men gravitate to certain career paths. Women choose NOT to sit for hours in front of computers learning to code

      Not true. Society pushes BOTH men and women toward certain career paths. For instance, a man who wants to be flight assistant or nurse is seen as a failure by society. Likewise, a woman who wants a career in engineering is seen as wrong by society (and most engineers, btw). That's why role models are important (for women AND men), so they can see their career preference with normality. When the environment in which those careers develop are strongly misogynistic, it's only normal that women gravitate away from them, the same way men gravitate away from careers considered as "women's careers". It's not because they don't like them, because if you look back through history you'll see most "women's careers" were "manly men's careers" at some point. It's because society push men and women in different directions, and that's sooooo wrong...

    17. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Notabadguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In 180ish comments, I didn't see anyone chuckle at "the girls...learnt more about coding."

      So to summarize:

      -30 kiddies make up the sample set.
      -No controls on the experiment.
      -No prevention on collusion.
      -12 year old girls in the sample set develop more complex games than 12 year old boys in the sample set.
      -Arbitrary measure of complexity for measure.
      -12 year old literacy in the summary.

      Yep, this is a scientific study that I'll be referencing.

    18. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Your.Master · · Score: 1

      Why wouldn't you count them? I don't think this UK study had 13 year olds making AAA blockbuster games.

    19. Re: Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Last year I was part of a ncwit(national center for women in technology) conference where the girls who were in high school competed to win state or even national recognition. One of the girls achieved the national recognition. These girls were insanely smart. The thing is that there are scholarships just sitting for girls to take them. Some of them don't get taken and sit there because of the strong, intimidating mainly male presence in the industry.

    20. Re: Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The video game industry coined those terms you agenda pushing twit. Mostly to promto brand loyalty and preorders.

      Much like how Sony uses the phrase "for the players".

      The more you know...
      Maybe it will reduce the amount of lies you tell... I can dream can't I?

    21. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure what your point is.

      The fact is, women were quickly pushed out of games the minute the FPS (First Person Shooter) became a thing. Everyone wants to pewpewpew, **** the story.

      As women are getting back into game development, games start being more than just "murder simulators" , but some males have a problem with this. Look up the comments on youtube for any game produced after voice acting became a thing (Around Kings Quest 5) , with some of the early CD-ROM games like Final Fantasy 7, and how much people decry having to listen/watch the same clips over and over again. This was the deathknell for Adventure games, and unlike Japan, adventure games just plain disappeared or were transformed into RPG games.

      In Japan, there's always been a market for the "ADV", but in order to sell them, they all pretty much have to have fanservice and sex scenes, which also means you don't see them in actual stores. The Japanese ADV spawned the "Visual Novel" subcategory, which are typically written by both men and women, but the types of games Japanese males and Japanese females write can be all over the place. These are the easiest games to write because the logic for ADV/VN's without RPG elements is little more than some decision/stat-keeping.

      But out West here, the "Visual Novel" doesn't exist, because artists here think the only comics that sell are superhero based. So there's no art support for the VN style. If you look on Steam, the only VN's seen are Localized Japanese VN's that had the adult content cut from them, or "Western" attempts using Ren'py that aren't terribly great.

      The odd thing is, the best game programmer/developers are actually transgender people. Transgender types intrinsically know what appeals to both genders, and thus know where games balance can be improved. However they tend to look at inwards experiences, so what tends to come out of that is negative experiences, so the writing style of someone transgendered is often that of the "path of inexperience", and it shows up in games and webcomics as "ooh poor me."

      We're reaching a point in games where it needs to break into two or three classifications. Instead of just "gameplay" categories, the actual concept of a game should split into "gameplay-oriented", "story-oriented" and "environment-oriented". "Gameplay" oriented games are your Tetris and Mario games that require practice to "perfect." Environment-oriented games are those that we traditionally would call an adventure game, but also covers (MMO)RPG and FPS games that involve transforming the environment (eg crafting) and/or the player character. The "Story-oriented" game is where the game plays more like an interactive film/tv show, and may be produced as episodic content. The difference between the environment-oriented and story-oriented, is that the story-oriented game is prefabricated by the author, while the environment-oriented game relies on emergent gameplay to craft a story.

      I actually wish at times that the Japanese Doujin community was as enthusiastic as the English "open source" gaming community. The problem really is that Western attitudes are individualistic, where as Japanese work together. So there's a lot of half-baked "game parts" out there in the English community, and rarely does a game get completed. In Japan, there is ComiKet which is the ultimate goal for anyone. All these Doujin circles produce so much content and damn near none of it is ever heard of again without sifting through piracy sites in the Western world.

      But in the end, Men and Women are only marginally different. They aren't developing games using what's between their legs. Both can develop an equal game given the same starting conditions and opportunity.

    22. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Kvathe · · Score: 2

      The sample set was 55 kids, but nowhere in the study does it support the statement that girls learned more about coding. The improvement between the pre- and post-tests was roughly equal for boys and girls.

    23. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      It isn't actually unless you want to count facebook games which is the only way you're going to get numbers like that.

      And as to girls being developers... sure... just like they're 50 percent of programmers, right?... Oh wait.

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    24. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Girls have developed faster then boys at that age since always. It is a well known trait.

      However, the boys catch up and then the advantage vanishes.

      Games are not programmed or developed by 12 year olds. They're mostly developed by people between the ages of 25 and 45. An age bracket which is well beyond the critical age range you're talking about.

      What is more, you can see in the colleges that even with women out numbering men in the colleges... the programming, mathematics, etc courses are mostly men. And amongst the hard programming and math courses... 99.999999 percent men.

      Now am I saying women can't do this work? No. I am rather saying they don't want to do it. They sit down in the programming classes, notice it is not fun for them, and leave.

      It is a choice.

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    25. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Well that was all I had... I thought the LJ was written by a women but I was wrong.

      So... does anyone have a game written by a woman that was actually well written?

      I'm not saying they can't write a good script for a game. I'm just saying I can't think of one.

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    26. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Wrong, this has been established in many studies on small children as young as toddlers... there are distinct tendencies between the sexes.

      You cannot tell me a toddler has be socialized to desire given things based on sex. And yet in those studies, such children were shown to prefer given toys largely on sexual grounds.

      I grant that the nurture component is very strong. However, what you are saying is that nature doesn't exist at all. Which is unsupportable.

      We are a sexually dimorphic species. This has been proven to be so both in our external traits and in our neurology.

      Do you want to bet a neurologist can't tell a male brain from a female brain? Obviously they could. And how? The structure is different.

      I thought everyone knew this? Aren't we being told all the time about how "girls are better at this" or "women are better at this"... well, assuming they are, that means male and female brains are different. Which means unless you're going with a female supremacist platform... that women are probably not as good at some things men do.

      The logic is fucking inescapable. It isn't politically correct... but then I'm a human being and not a fucking computer. So I don't especially care what the PC fucktards deem doubleplusungood.

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    27. Re: Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I work in a software group where women are well-represented: 2 in development and 3 in SQA. The reason is pretty simple, the VP of Software is a woman. Until there are more women in tech management there will be fewer women entering the field.

      And just to head off the troll comments: I've just gotten a bonus for the 3rd straight year because the company is well-run and profitable. Also I have never heard of a harassment incident here, unlike previous places I've worked.

    28. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Do we really want to do Male authors VS Female authors match up?

      No.

    29. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Oligonicella · · Score: 2

      "The fact is," Followed by a bunch of opinions.

    30. Re: Which is why girls dominate game making... by Oligonicella · · Score: 0

      "Until there are more women in tech management there will be fewer women entering the field." Except, of course, studies show women much preferring male to female managers.

    31. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by ranton · · Score: 1

      You cannot tell me a toddler has be socialized to desire given things based on sex. And yet in those studies, such children were shown to prefer given toys largely on sexual grounds.

      Of course toddlers are socialized to desire given things based on sex. It starts within days of birth. Girls are in the pink clothes, boys are in the blue clothes. Girls are more commonly told "you are so pretty" and boys are more commonly told "you are so smart." Girls get a princess castle, boys get a truck. The very fact that Babies R Us even has a boys and girls section for infants and toddlers shows the socialization starts that young.

      I'm not saying socialization is the only reason boys and girls are different, but saying toddlers are immune to this socialization is dishonest.

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    32. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by q4Fry · · Score: 1

      Portal?

    33. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      according to wikipedia:
      ""
      Developer(s) Valve Corporation

      Publisher(s)
      Valve Corporation
      Microsoft Game Studios (XBLA)4

      Distributor(s)
      Electronic Arts (retail)
      Steam (online)

      Writer(s)
      Erik Wolpaw
      Chet Faliszek

      Composer(s)
      Kelly Bailey
      Mike Morasky
      ""
      same with portal 2... only there are some extra dudes on that one.

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    34. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      If you're saying a male toddler prefers to chew on toy trucks while a female toddler prefers to chew on dollies because of socialization... then you've created an orthodoxy that cannot be falsified.

      This is officially your belief system. And that's fine. I won't challenge your belief system so long as you acknowledge it as such. By all means, have little meetings with your buddies at your local temple or whatever and take off a few random days of the year to observe... whatever. But your claims on science if you start pulling this crap are nil.

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    35. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by narcc · · Score: 3, Informative

      Wrong. Women and men gravitate to certain career paths. Women choose NOT to sit for hours in front of computers learning to code.

      Anecdote: When I introduced RPG Maker in an after-school program at the urging of one boy, more girls than boys asked if they could also participate. The girls also stuck with it longer than every boy, save the original. (The girls averaged about three weeks vs the boys four days, not counting the first boy, who spent 4 months on his creation.)

      Children, regardless of gender, enjoy creative activities. Moving on...

      The only female writers in games I can name off the top of my head

      You'd be amazed at how many games were written and designed by women, even in the old days. Sticking with just well-known titles: River Raid (Carol Shaw), Centipede (Dona Bailey, later driven from the industry by male co-workers), Archon (Anne Westfall), [bunch of Sierra games] (Jane Jensen), Laser Surgeon [okay, not as well known, but the name you'll recognize] (Brenda Laurel), Plundered Hearts, Zork Zero (Amy Briggs), I could go on all day, it seems.

      That doesn't even begin to touch on the countless influential women in game design, who bring talents aside from programming to the table like Lucy Bradshaw, Robin Hunicke (who you dismissed without naming earlier), Brenda Brathwaite, Alyssa Finley, Linda Currie ... like the earlier list, this just doesn't end.

      The point of all this? That you're not aware of many famous women in games does not mean that there aren't many famous women in games.

      Do you know what keeps women out of game development? Attitudes like yours, as illustrated by the aforementioned Dona Bailey.

      And before you give me some presto intellectual argument about how they're just conditioned to not want to do these things... Wrong. Women and men gravitate to certain career paths. Women choose NOT to sit for hours in front of computers learning to code.

      Back in the early 80's something like 40% of CS graduates were women. Why do you think they seem to have collectively chosen to avoid it and related fields? It clearly wasn't a problem earlier, after all.

      I think that you know why. You just don't like the answer.

    36. Re: Which is why girls dominate game making... by narcc · · Score: 2

      Women have been making video games since the beginning! As I noted earlier, River Raid (of the the top games on the 2600) was written by Carol Shaw, a women. I also mentioned Dona Bailey, who co-developed the hit arcade classic Centipede.

      But let's let your limited knowledge and experience dictate reality. That way, we don't have to let those icky girls in to our clubhouse.

    37. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Girls have developed faster then boys at that age since always. It is a well known trait.

      It's a popular myth.

    38. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good enough study for Anita Sarkeesian. The game patriarchy is clearly holding girls down. The industry must change and produce only Gone Home-style games.

    39. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      So to summarize:

      -30 kiddies make up the sample set.
      -No controls on the experiment.
      -No prevention on collusion.
      -12 year old girls in the sample set develop more complex games than 12 year old boys in the sample set.
      -Arbitrary measure of complexity for measure.
      -12 year old literacy in the summary.

      You forgot:

      - Had the "study" somehow concluded that boys were better it would have never seen the light of day, rendering all such studies meaningless due to selection bias.

    40. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by ultranova · · Score: 1

      If you're saying a male toddler prefers to chew on toy trucks while a female toddler prefers to chew on dollies because of socialization... then you've created an orthodoxy that cannot be falsified.

      And if you're saying that male toddlers prefer trucks over dolls without socialization, you're either saying that male toddlers prefer hard toys over squishy ones - which is easily tested for with truck plushies - or that human genome includes genes that encode trucks, which is... pretty weird.

      So maybe you should make less condescending noise about other people being crazy cultists, when your own stated beliefs are either irrelevant to the subject or only make sense if one assumes humans are orks from WH40K.

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    41. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're good. We DO all know this. John Money's failures and eventual conclusions proved what you're saying in the 1970's. The science is not taught at all in Biology in schools. A LOT of research has shown these basic things: and yet the SJW's continue to bleat on that Testosterone and Estrogen ONLY account for breasts and body strength.

    42. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, gaming is now 50:50, I'm sure game development will follow.

      Usage of toilets is now 50:50, I'm sure plumbers will follow.

    43. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'm afraid it's not, girls reach puberty a couple years before boys, and that's just one of the most obvious differences. If you want to know more, ask parents who had both, girls and boys.

    44. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Pubstar · · Score: 1

      If you look at any of those studies, they always involve mobile gaming, FB games, and Pop Cap games. Hardly the "core gamer" section that makes majority of the money.

    45. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by jones_supa · · Score: 1

      It's still nice that even in casual gaming a parity has been reached.

    46. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now am I saying women can't do this work? No. I am rather saying they don't want to do it. They sit down in the programming classes, notice it is not fun for them, and leave.

      It is a choice.

      You are correct, it is a choice. But your unstated premise - that it is an independent choice - is false. It isn't the work they walk away from, it is the social judgment of the people who do that work. Both the culture around the work being unfriendly to them and society's default belief that it is not a job for women.

      Look at India for example, where as a whole women have much less opportunity, the proportion of female programmers is 50% greater than in the US. That is a very strong indicator that the issue is one of nurture, not nature. And if it isn't nature, then it is something we can change if you don't retreat into denialism.

    47. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      pretty much exactly. They've so over saturated the market with these stupid articles that they've come out of solution. It is just piling up on the bottom of the beaker now.

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    48. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Whether or a myth or not, it doesn't matter because the advantage is very temporary.

      The boys catch up rapidly.

      How can people think men are inferior when we have this enormous history of men doing brilliant things? Seriously... people that take that posture need to read a book or go to a museum.

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    49. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      It speaks to their desperation to scour the bottom for anything.

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    50. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Wrong.

      Women were not pushed out of gaming.

      There are lots of games that are not about pew pew. You clearly don't play games or know much about them.

      And why can't women make pew pew games? They're fun.

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    51. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Citation on Dona Bailey being driven out.

      You're referencing some games without any writing in them in response to a study about women being better story tellers. Just saying.

      You know what, you convinced me... only reason women are not being represented in a meritorious industry with a very low bar to entry is a shadowy cabal of bigoted men.

      Oh wait, no... that's idiotic.

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    52. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by russotto · · Score: 2

      How can people think men are inferior when we have this enormous history of men doing brilliant things? Seriously... people that take that posture need to read a book or go to a museum.

      Didn't you know? We men have been using our superior size, strength, and proficiency at unarmed combat (along with a whole lot of rape) to keep women down for millenia. If it weren't for that, women would be running everything and would be recognized as the great superiors in all categories.

    53. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Is it really a choice or is it just genetic programming. Those brain chemical triggers are based upon what you have been programmed with and will get you to do what ever you have been programmed with and reinforced over time, to keep those tasty brain chemicals flowing and the yeach ones at bay. Your body seriously enjoys those tasty brain chemicals because with the, 'feast or famine', release of stored energy and trace elements that your body manages, happy brain means releasing a feast rather than conserving due to harsh times. So how much of that is a hunter versus a gatherer response, keeping in mind carrying child evolves a gatherer response over a hunter response. Hmm, I wonder whether female computer programmers would actually design a better computer programming language than male computer programmers even when males are using it?

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    54. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Friend, will you claim that women develop social skills earlier and to a greater extent then their male counter parts?

      Will you claim that they have certain advantages over males at given portions of their education?

      The instant you say yes and this is something feminists will say very freely... including in this article... "WOMEN ARE BETTER"...

      Well, allow me to use the kryptonite of all sophists... Facts and logic.

      IF women are superior at anything they are also DIFFERENT. Difference is required for superiority. It is in fact a further qualifier on difference.

      Aspect is different in the direction of superiority.

      No?

      Which means this very article you are defending is contradicting you. If women are different from men then men are different from women. The logic is inescapable.

      The only way you can hold your position is by denouncing this article as flawed.

      Defend it and you defend differences and I win.

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    55. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      It hasn't though. Women play casual games and men play more involved and complicated video games.

      You only get parity by combining the two.

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    56. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      No one is stopping them from doing it. How many men have built companies out of their garages with approval from no one?

      If the girls aren't doing it, they have no one to blame but themselves.

      They've run out of people to point fingers at. There is a higher percentage of female scientists in Iran then in the US.

      Which of our two countries is more sexist. If sexism is the problem then Iranian women would be less likely to be scientists.

      At some point, the women are going to have to take responsibility for choosing not to do some things. And having made that choice, leave the men alone that are willing to do it.

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    57. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      You'll also notice that there are more women in the sciences in Iran then in the US.

      Which means by your augment, Iran is a less sexist country then the US.

      Or there is something else going on.

      Such as "economic opportunity?"... in very poor countries women know that the science jobs will put food on the table. So they do them. In the US, they know they can put food on the table in other ways so they drop out and do something else.

      It isn't social pressure. It is economic pressure. Or I should say the lack of economic pressure in the US. And that means what they're really doing is choosing what THEY want to actually do.

      Now if we trash the US economy hard enough then you'll get your wish. Women will compete harder in those fields because they'll be more reliable wage providers then what they'd otherwise like to do.

      One of the reasons women stay out of gaming is that it is not a profitable profession. You work very hard, work very long hours, suffer social isolation, and at the end of it you can get paid very poorly.

      Women stay away from jobs like if they do not enjoy the job. Just as men stay away from jobs women tend to do is the money isn't right.

      Pay men enough though, and they'll do anything women tend to dominate even if they don't enjoy themselves.

      You can't simply say "if women don't do this then misogyny!"

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    58. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Oh wait, no... that's idiotic.

      It would be if that's what he said. However your description fits the bill for your interpretation of what he said perfectly.

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    59. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      The entire implication of this idiotic propoganda push is that women are being intentionally and forcibly excluded from given industries for no reason besides having to use different bathrooms.

      I'm beyond tired of people dancing around the issue and implying stupid bullshit but never actually directly defending anything.

      It is this endless war of nudging and nodding and winks. Fuck that.

      If women are better then they're different. Which means there are differences.

      If women are being excluded from an industry where anyone can pick up a coding book and make a mobile game in their bathrobe... then men must be so fucking all powerful that there's no point even arguing about this issue. Just bow down before our godlike powers.

      The reality is that women have chosen NOT to be in this field... statistically. And as to why they have chosen not to do that... sexism is the least credible answer.

      The people that keep bringing this shit up need to have their rights to cite statistics revoked. They don't know how statistics work or how to read them. They don't know what methodology is and they don't know what correlation is and they certainly do not know what causation is either.

      So can we stop with the stupid statistics promoted by halfwits?

      Thanks.

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    60. Re: Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      I played those games and river run especially was good fun.

      That said, those games were not about writing and this article was about how women are better writers.

      Do you have examples pertinent to the study?

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    61. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck. Shit. Piss.

    62. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Girls begin developing earlier than boys.

    63. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Which is why girls dominate the game industry.... oh wait, it turns out your point is irrelevant because what you're talking about is a temporary advantage girls have over boys that is quickly over and then boys have some of their own advantages that push them.

      We are dimorphic. It is a complex relationship beyond the ken of the simplistic.

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    64. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by kevingolding2001 · · Score: 1

      Now am I saying women can't do this work? No. I am rather saying they don't want to do it. They sit down in the programming classes, notice it is not fun for them, and leave.

      It is a choice.

      Mods, please mod this up.

      Everyone else, please read and understand this.

      This has been exactly my experience since I my university days more than 25 years ago. Women 'can' do IT, they just don't like it, and leave.

    65. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And as to girls being developers... sure... just like they're 50 percent of programmers, right?... Oh wait.

      There used to be more women in programming. In fact, at one point 100% of programmers were women.

    66. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by narcc · · Score: 1

      The reality is that women have chosen NOT to be in this field... statistically. And as to why they have chosen not to do that... sexism is the least credible answer.

      This should be fun.

      Why do you believe sexism to be the least credible answer? Please include relevant citations.

      Do you have an alternative explanation, which also explains the demographic shift we've seen since the early 1980's? Again, show your work.

    67. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      When I was in college, it was more like 75% men in the hard math and programming classes. If the percentages have changed that much then it is not some innate gender bias that causes this, it's clearly sociological.

    68. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      The reality is that women have chosen NOT to be in this field... statistically. And as to why they have chosen not to do that... sexism is the least credible answer.

      This should be fun.

      Why do you believe sexism to be the least credible answer? Please include relevant citations.

      Do you have an alternative explanation, which also explains the demographic shift we've seen since the early 1980's? Again, show your work.

      The god-of-the-gaps argument doesn't hold for creationism and it doesn't hold for your argument either - just because the result is the way it is does not in any way imply sexism. In fact, in countries with institutionalised sexism there are more female scientists: you know, where females have *fewer* choices they choose maths and science. When they have more choices they choose other things. You need to show, at the very least, some sort of correlation between sexist countries and female participation.

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    69. Re: Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Transgender people are pretty rare, something like 1 in 500. I doubt there are enough of them doing game development to form the basis for any statistically significant conclusions about how good they are.

      So, interesting hypothesis (not really), but stop presenting it as fact, particularly as a fact you know the explanation for.

    70. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by narcc · · Score: 1

      There's a serious flaw in your reasoning: I never claimed that sexism was the most credible answer. That was an inference on the part of the parent. I made no claim, and thus have no obligation to defend one.

      The parent, on the other hand, did make a claim. I merely asked him to defend it.

      Now go and sin no more.

    71. Re: Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What does their preference have to do with creating the right kind of workplace and enforcing rules?

    72. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by russotto · · Score: 2

      Centipede (Dona Bailey, later driven from the industry by male co-workers)

      Really? That's not what she said. She specifically said she was NOT intimidated out of the industry.

      BTW, why didn't you mention one of the most well-known women in gaming: Roberta Williams?

      Back in the early 80's something like 40% of CS graduates were women. Why do you think they seem to have collectively chosen to avoid it and related fields? It clearly wasn't a problem earlier, after all.

      You're looking at it backwards. In the late 70's and early 80's, female participation in CS shot up much faster than female participation in other traditionally-male STEM subjects, and fell back down just as fast. Why did it shoot up so fast in the 80's? Something was different in CS, and the "computer geeks are more misogynistic than any other group" hypothesis fails to explain it.

    73. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Back in the early 80's CS was a whole different ball of wax than it is today, so the implied argument that men in our infinite oaf-dom drove women for the field of CS doesn't really hold, at least through the argument that we where the only variable.

    74. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And amongst the hard programming and math courses... 99.999999 percent men.

      Math really isn't your forte, is it?

    75. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by narcc · · Score: 1

      BTW, why didn't you mention one of the most well-known women in gaming: Roberta Williams?

      Because the parent already mentioned her.

    76. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      I have a quid pro quo policy on offering citations. I've met too many people on the internet that merely ask for those to burn out the opposition. So I don't play.

      As to sexism being a non-credible answer... because it doesn't make any sense. Logically.

      You'd need pressure at every level of society holding women down. What is more, especially in programming and game development a lot of people are self taught meaning that they did it all by themselves. And the barrier to entry into indy games etc is extremely low. What is more, if anything our society ENCOURAGES women to join these fields because idiots look at statistics and get upset when everything isn't equaled out.

      The sexism argument is about as silly as the stupid conspiracy theories you hear from people off their meds. It doesn't wash.

      Systematic sexism did exist once and it was a part of the law. However, it was retired decades ago and the society has been socialized to accept women in all positions with the possible exception of front line combat troops.

      As to what I find to be a more likely cause of the statistical gap...

      Two things.

      1. Statistical neurological differences.
      1a. For one thing women tend to have more generalized talents. A women with a talent for math is probably good at a lot of other things. In men, we tend to have more specialized talents where in if we are good at one thing we might not be nearly as good outside that generalized field.
      1b. For another you have a different distribution of IQ in men then in women. Women statistically cluster around the "average" portion of the bell curve with very few outright idiots and very few outright geniuses. Men in contrast have more outliers. Statistically most men are in the middle of that bell curve however we have more outright idiots and more outright geniuses. As regards STEM fields especially those on the bleeding edge, the geniuses are required to really move the ball forward. Those geniuses are statistically prone to be men in the general population.

      2. Choice.
      2a. Given point "1a" women have more choices then men in mental fields. Men are prone to have specialized mentalities that are applicable in certain tasks and subjects. Where as women are more prone to have more options. A genius woman that is gifted in mathematics is as likely to be gifted in literature as well. Given the choices they opt out of the solitary often thankless jobs in the STEM fields. Men in STEM fields by contrast would have to accept far lower paying jobs with far less status if they left their area of specialization. What is more, men are less inclined mind social isolation then are women.

      Here you'll ask for citations. I'll need a quid pro quo on your part to bother. I must have you work as hard to validate your position as I must work to validate mine. This is not traditional rules. However, this is the internet, and I find this shuts down trolls that simply ask for citations to burn me out. I am not saying you are a troll. I am saying that I will not make an effort to find citations unless I know you will be putting in equal effort.

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    77. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Yes, when they were associated with typists. They were seen as secretaries with extra qualifications.

      Do you want to go back to that or do you want to walk that line of ignorance back a step?

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    78. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which means by your augment, Iran is a less sexist country then the US.

      That is a false characterization of what I am saying (you'll note I referenced India's problem with sexism too). But what it does say is that in the field of sciences Iran is less sexist than in other fields. Or in the reverse - in the US the sciences are more sexist than in other fields.

      One of the reasons women stay out of gaming is that it is not a profitable profession. You work very hard, work very long hours, suffer social isolation, and at the end of it you can get paid very poorly.

      That does not pass the laugh test. It is just circular reasoning, women stay out of jobs that suck because they are women. Men take jobs that suck because they are men. All you are doing is stating the premise as the conclusion.

      And your example of game programming being low paying is just cherry-picking, I don't even know if it is true for that narrow of a field. But one thing is for certain, the average programming job pays 12% more than the average HR job. That's economic opportunity for you.

      Nurture, figure it out.

    79. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      No it isn't a false characterization. It is a logical evaluation of a fallacious argument.

      If sexism is the only reason for any gap in these statistics, then the US is more sexist then Iran or India as regards women in those fields.

      Is that the argument you want to make? Because it is quite clearly an unsupportable position. If you wish to hold it, that is fine... instantly losing is a choice.

      The US is not without its flaws but being more sexist then Iran is not one of them.

      As to the laugh test, how many female stamp collectors are there?

      How many female fly fishers are there?

      How many female model train enthusiasts are there?

      I could go through a lot of things women do alone that men do not, but you get my point.

      You can't say women don't fly fish because of sexism. It is a largely solitary pursuit. The same can be said of model train enthusiasts. Are you seriously going to say that men receive permission to sit in basements collecting trains and women do not? It is on its face moronic. You want to talk about the laugh test? Please show why men do such things and women do not?

      Clearly there are differences between male and female interests. This is obvious to human beings that live on planet earth.

      The only people that do not know this are either aliens from other worlds or people that have jammed their heads so far up their own asses that they've ripped a hole in reality and climbed stinking into another dimension accessible only through their own asses.

      To which you reply "laugh test"... you have got to be mother fucking kidding me.

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    80. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by romons · · Score: 1

      Now am I saying women can't do this work? No. I am rather saying they don't want to do it. They sit down in the programming classes, notice it is not fun for them, and leave.

      What a stupid thing to say. Karmashock, probably indian. My daughter is in her third year in engineering, and encounters your attitude ALL the time, I really don't know what is up with indians. All the indians I've known have treated me (a man) with respect. However, at her school, the indian TAs won't help her, and the indian students are either rude or sexually suggestive. So, what does she do? She kicks their asses by actually studying instead of cheating, by finishing group projects on her own that they are too stupid or lazy to do, and cries in her dorm room every night because their stupid attitude has infected her. She has a 4.0 GPA, and now wants to quit engineering with only a year to go. I guess it wasn't 'fun for her'.

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    81. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      As to indians, I am not an indian nor was I talking about india.

      As to a specific person going through the system, we are talking about statistics and averages.

      What is more, your point about India having a problem with sexism actually helps my point. I was saying that the issue in the US is not sexism and India actually has more women in STEM fields then the US does.

      If India is more sexist and it probably is then the US has fewer women in STEM fields DESPITE having LESS sexism.

      And what is left at that point to blame it on? Choice.

      In the US, women have more economic opportunities then in India so they choose not to be in STEM fields because they don't need to be in them to make a good living.

      As to the attempt to guilt trip me, I am hyper rational, sir. Your attempt at pathos offends me. Make a rational argument based on logic and reason or do not attempt to move me. We are not children and I am not a member of your family. Between adults that do not know each other, you must make an argument... not attempt to sway me with pathos.

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    82. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by romons · · Score: 1

      You claim to be hyper rational, but I see what sexism does to women first hand. In fact, your supposedly hyper rational view is provably pathetic nonsense. Women are discriminated against in STEM fields. Your argument is a typical horns of a dilemma, "if not this, then clearly that". You can't see any other reasons than 'choice'? Either you are knowingly posting a misleading argument, or you have shit for brains. Those seem to be the only choices.

      Try searching for 'discrimination against women in STEM' for more information. In case you can't figure out how to use google, here is one.

      With everyone from the federal government to corporate America working to encourage more women to pursue careers in science, technology, engineering and math fields, you would think the doors would be wide open to women of all backgrounds. A new study shows that this could not be further from the truth and that gender bias among hiring managers in STEM fields is extraordinarily prevalent.

      Here is another one:

      Despite efforts to recruit and retain more women, a stark gender disparity persists within academic science. Abundant research has demonstrated gender bias in many demographic groups, but has yet to experimentally investigate whether science faculty exhibit a bias against female students that could contribute to the gender disparity in academic science. In a randomized double-blind study (n = 127), science faculty from research-intensive universities rated the application materials of a student—who was randomly assigned either a male or female name—for a laboratory manager position. Faculty participants rated the male applicant as significantly more competent and hireable than the (identical) female applicant. These participants also selected a higher starting salary and offered more career mentoring to the male applicant. The gender of the faculty participants did not affect responses, such that female and male faculty were equally likely to exhibit bias against the female student. Mediation analyses indicated that the female student was less likely to be hired because she was viewed as less competent. We also assessed faculty participants’ preexisting subtle bias against women using a standard instrument and found that preexisting subtle bias against women played a moderating role, such that subtle bias against women was associated with less support for the female student, but was unrelated to reactions to the male student. These results suggest that interventions addressing faculty gender bias might advance the goal of increasing the participation of women in science.

      Concerning indians, here is another reference.

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    83. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by narcc · · Score: 1

      Here you'll ask for citations. I'll need a quid pro quo on your part to bother.

      If you can't support your claims, just say so.

    84. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      I won't be baited into wasting my time providing evidence simply so you can touch yourself every time I invest a lot of time and you do nothing.

      If we were having a formal debate that was recorded and recognized, then I'd provide the citations simply to prove you wrong and so that everyone else knew you were wrong.

      But if you lose here what will that mean? Nothing. What we have here is a disagreement between two people on the internet. I don't know you. You could be a troll. I'm not going to invest a lot of time proving something when you can turn around at any time say "ha ha, you wasted hours of your time proving something! SUCKER!!!" and you run away.

      Quid pro quo or go fuck yourself sideways with a chainsaw. ;-)

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    85. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      As to hyper rationality and your first hand knowledge... how does the latter refute the former?

      As to choice being the only option... there are other options. Sexism simply isn't one of them. That was logically ruled out rather clearly.

      I thought choice was a good alternative hypothesis that has a basis in economic data and neurology. But if you have a superior argument, I am open to it. You can even attempt to argue sexism but you're going to have to deal with the logic and evidence against that argument or I'm going to just assume you're a robot repeating the same garbage over and over.

      As to your first study, then why are so many women in STEM fields in India and Iran but not in the US? What you are ultimately arguing is that Americans are more sexist then Iranians. This is despite the US going through the Sexual Revolution, and now three waves of feminism.

      What you are ultimately arguing is that the work of feminism has made Americans MORE sexist instead of less. This is despite us passing many laws protecting and promoting women's rights.

      We are in this eternal damned if we do and damned if we don't situation. You say women should be equal but if you want equality that means equality of opportunity. When you demand equality of out come that is not equality at all. You are asking for special treatment. You are asking for things to be handed to be people unearned. And that won't make women equal. They'll be jokes. No one will trust a female professional if everyone knows that many women get the position simply for being women. It is the same problem that same mistake some activists for racial minorities make. They demand to have certain people admitted to things despite not passing tests and then get upset when no one respects them.

      I'm sorry. But if you want the respect it has to be earned.

      We can make every female a doctor at birth. Just hand the infant a diploma. We can make it a law that everyone calls them doctor etc. But no one is going to trust them to do an operation.

      If you want the respect then you have to earn it. And that means stop complaining about OUTCOME statistics and instead focus on OPPORTUNITY statistics. Women can take these courses in college. And should they pass, the jobs that require those degrees are open to them.

      Will they take those courses? Will they pass them? Will they do well in the job once they get hired?

      That is on them.

      If women want the respect men have then they need to start taking responsibility for themselves like men. I am not asking the to act in all ways like men. Merely take responsibility for yourself. Stop crying for the big strong men to take care of you if you want to be taken seriously.

      And that is all these stupid campaigns are about. The whole thing is a big long scree about how some women want to be taken more seriously but don't want to actually earn any of it. They just want to be handed the respect... and then they magically want that respect to mean something when everyone knows it wasn't earned.

      It will NEVER happen.

      Women can either earn these titles and make gains in these industries on their own merits... and many women do... or they can accept their failures the same way everyone else accepts their failures... with dignity.

      Here you'll attempt to label me some flavor of bigot for not goosestepping into your interpretation of the world.

      I don't have to think like you to be a good person. I don't have to agree with you about everything to be a good person. I can think you're a fucking retard AND be a good person at the same time. I don't need your approval or your permission to have my own opinions. And I damn well don't give a fuck what you think if you're going to start saying that any statistical difference between the careers men and women choose is entirely due to sexism. That is complete fucking horseshit.

      Good day, sir.

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    86. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Really? That's not what she said. She specifically said she was NOT intimidated out of the industry.

      What do you expect from a guy that continues to misquote Djikstra when he's had it pointed out to him that Djikstra himself said he never actually said what he's quoted in his quote?

      narcc isn't exactly known for sticking to the facts. He's proven many a time he'll happily lie and rewrite history to push his agenda.

    87. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by romons · · Score: 1

      Saying that women are opting out of STEM due to choice is not a useful statement. Of course they are choosing to opt out. The question is why is this happening? I can assert that the moronic drivel you call your opinion has been posted because you choose to do it. Now, as to why you choose to post, the assertion that you chose does not have any power to explain, Choosing is an act, not a reason for the act. It is the reason behind the act that we should consider.

      Now, I never said sexism was the only cause, just that it is well established by the literature, I've seen it occur myself, and there are lots of firsthand accounts of sexism in science and engineering. So, you are free to speculate on alternate causes for the 'choice' made by women who are choosing to leave STEM. Just saying, "well, they had the choice to stay, and they left, so fuck them" doesn't really cut it as a rational viewpoint, in my opinion. Blacks 'chose' not to vote for 100 years because they were being beaten up and hung when they tried to do it. I guess your view would be that they just "chose" not to vote, so fuck them?

      As to your supposed hyper-rationality, you are using rhetoric rather than reason, claiming a straw man proposal (that I believe that sexism is the only cause of women leaving STEM), which can be easily defeated. There are clearly other causes, but the one I see, the one that affects MY DAUGHTER, and other women trying for engineering degrees, is sexism, probably originating from twisted little mama's boys like you. Try arguing like a man, and using your 'hyper-reason' instead of cheesy, transparent rhetoric :)

      So, in summary, go fuck yourself, you ignorant little shit. You have no idea what you are talking about. Your 'hyper-rationality' doesn't seem to be cutting it today. Maybe you should go read ' harry potter and the methods of rationality' again.

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    88. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Karmashock · · Score: 0

      As to why they are choosing, if they choose to not take a college course then to claim sexism would require sexism in college... not the companies.

      Therefore you can address your fucking retarded sexism charges to the professors at the universities. Have fun with that, retard.

      Good day, sir.

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    89. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I seriously hate sexist people like this. Men and women are equals. One is not better than the other. While men excel in things women do not and vice-versa, things are like that so that we balance each other out. In other words, we are equals because we are different. This way no one sex can rule the other. And I must admit, women such as myself have been put down for far to long just because we aren't as "strong" as men. Those that think that men are superior need to get a clue 'cause GOD created us as EQUALS.

    90. Re:Which is why girls dominate game making... by strikethree · · Score: 1

      Back in the early 80's something like 40% of CS graduates were women. Why do you think they seem to have collectively chosen to avoid it and related fields?

      Because of the oppressive white male autocracy of course. There is nothing else that it could be.

      After all, females are not being subconsciously and subtly programmed and manipulated to be actually unable to socialize with males.

      Someone (probably white males (no sarcasm that time but gender and race are truly irrelevant here)) is poisoning the well so to speak concerning relationships between males and females. I can not stand being around American females anymore. Their world view has become incredibly distorted. It is to the point that I suspect that many of them have a very precarious hold on reality. European women in general seem to be mostly real. Women from the Netherlands seem to be the best to interact with as they do not assume that every interaction with a male is all about the male trying to get into their panties.

      Why is this programming occurring? Who does it benefit? I have no idea, but it is a terrible terrible thing. Men and women just want to get along but someone clearly has a vested interest in not letting that happen.

      But yeah, let's just blame men in general disrespecting women in general and carry on with the pre-manufactured conflicts that we are intended to participate in.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
  2. Well, maybe they should do the job then by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    instead of getting MBAs or children. How can convince girls to sit in front of a computer screen all day...

  3. Just a thought... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just a thought, but there's a slim chance that the boys may have been focusing on simplicity. Now, if the assignment had strict requirements about what must be done, that'd be a better way to measure who is "better" at coding computer games.

    1. Re:Just a thought... by qwijibo · · Score: 2

      Strict requirements? That's a silly thing to throw into some feel-good study.

      It's not like anyone who grows up to work with computers will ever get more than "this is broke, fix it" or "just make it happen" as their direction or "requirements".

    2. Re:Just a thought... by firex726 · · Score: 1

      Yea, if someone asked me to code a program, I'd just go with "Hello World". It's simple and get's the job done.

  4. What kind of a "study" is this? by popo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Complex stories"? "Two or more parts or conditional clauses"? Two???

    "Trigger their scripts on when a character says something?"

    I am a game developer. I have no idea what they are talking about.

    More fundamentally: is "complexity" good?

    --
    ------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
    1. Re: What kind of a "study" is this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I can't understand your post at all and I'm a physics student creating software for a bank and am quite fluent when it comes to problems of simulation and such, even though I've never created more complex games.

      Have you tried reading the study? No one said complexity is better, just that girls are able to create more complex games at that age.

    2. Re: What kind of a "study" is this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I know right.

      It says it was a "visual programming language" though. This shouldn't even count as programming.

      This would be like using a bunch of pre-supplied drop down menus to write a story and the girls chose better selections and "wrote" a better story. Has nothing to do with programming/writing. :/

    3. Re:What kind of a "study" is this? by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 3, Informative

      I'm guessing they had things like...

      Trigger
      Character says "Xxxxx".
      Character attacks.
      Character is damaged.
      Character places objects on table.
      Character gives objects to NPC.
      Character is hungry.
      Character is wielding X when close to a spot.

      For some reason, the boys only used the 1st trigger and the result was a stereotypical "prompt/respond" roleplaying game.

      Using the other triggers would provide a less stereotypical experience.

      Not sure why all the girls did well and all the boys did badly. That seems off.

      Perhaps there was a particular girl who "got it" and showed the other girls how to use the other triggers or shared code and made it easier for them to figure it out. Perhaps the teacher prompted the girls in some way.

      In any case, the girls did better in this case-- perhaps some will turn out to be major names and the experience has to bolster their confidence.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    4. Re: What kind of a "study" is this? by Trepidity · · Score: 5, Informative

      Varies by engine, but a lot of game logic these days is specified via visual programming languages, especially at big "AAA" game companies. The engine itself and the graphics/rendering parts, along with some computationally sensitive AI bits, will be written in C++, but a lot of the actual gameplay-relevant logic and events are scripted using something like Kismet (UDK3) or Blueprints (UDK4). Partly this is because in big companies, game logic has moved more and more towards becoming the responsibility of the level and character designers, while the "programmers" have become more specialized engine/graphics coders who don't actually program anything to do with gameplay.

    5. Re: What kind of a "study" is this? by jones_supa · · Score: 1

      You have to start somewhere. For 12-13 year olds, crunching through real programming languages and rendering pipelines would be too daunting.

      I see the problem though. If they later want to become real game devs, they have learn the proper attention span and grit to excel in the complex programming projects which games are these days.

    6. Re:What kind of a "study" is this? by AHuxley · · Score: 1
      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    7. Re: What kind of a "study" is this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      For 12-13 year olds, crunching through real programming languages and rendering pipelines would be too daunting.

      Is it? At that age, I was writing BASIC programs to set the hardware registers which enabled and moved sprites. I also did the math to create the binary bitmap data for the sprites. And I read up on the peculiar color encoding and on banked memory, and shortly thereafter I learned to write assembly code, because BASIC on a 1MHz 8 bit machine really doesn't cut it if you want to do bitmap graphics. And I didn't have the internet with all the tools and every bit of information I needed a Google search away. The assembler I used was published in a magazine as pages of hexadecimal numbers, which you had to type into a small basic program to recreate the executable file. Thank god for checksums. I think you're underestimating 12-13 year olds' drive to learn by a long shot.

    8. Re:What kind of a "study" is this? by x0ra · · Score: 1

      Just reminded me of this... http://www.tickld.com/x/proof-...

    9. Re: What kind of a "study" is this? by itzly · · Score: 1

      I think you're underestimating the level of distraction that the current 12-13 year olds have to deal with. No way is any of them going to be interested in something similar as looking up hex tables, when they can update their facebook page instead.

    10. Re: What kind of a "study" is this? by popo · · Score: 1

      > "Just that girls are able to create more complex games"

      Actually, that's nice that you added your own personal take-away, but that's not what the study showed. You are turning preference into capacity.

      It's also not how the study is described here on Slashdot:

      "I'm a UK Study, Girls Best Boys at Making Computer Games"

      That is very different from "just" saying anything about complexity.

      And why is performance at a particular age relevant anyway? Is this a study of childhood developmental capacity? Because it sure looks like they're stretching to draw references to gender dynamics within the gaming industry.

      --
      ------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
    11. Re: What kind of a "study" is this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're changing the entire point of the article to suit your rebuttal? Nobody was "just' making a point about games being complex. The point being made here was far more reaching than that.

    12. Re: What kind of a "study" is this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe, but the word "daunting" was used, not "boring".

    13. Re: What kind of a "study" is this? by x0ra · · Score: 1

      At 13, I started programming in Basic, at 14, I moved to C, and at 16, I wrote a Java SMTP implementation and an MUA, mostly due to the toolchains/environment availability on Windows. Unfortunately, I spent a year offline after that, where I mostly played with LaTeX [and myself... all along the way].

    14. Re: What kind of a "study" is this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How many consoles, tablets, and phones with specifically-designed-to-be-addicting games did you have as distractions when you were 13, 14, 15, and 16? All I had was Doom 2, Wacky Wheels, Lemmings, morning cartoons, and TGIF. No 24x7 kid channels or movie stations either.

    15. Re:What kind of a "study" is this? by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      > Not sure why all the girls did well and all the boys did badly. That seems off.
      If the girls study more, on average, then when the matter of study is a videogame, they will emerge with a better one.

      Now, for stuff who requires actual genius like 2d arcade style gameplay (it requires genius because most kind of dynamics have already been explored and the play experience has no guidelines, while in 3d one can use realism as a primary guideline) then both genders would have probably failed and we would have needed a huge sample size to make meaningful conclusions.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    16. Re:What kind of a "study" is this? by towermac · · Score: 2

      Yeah I was wondering if the kids were allowed to share and over what timespan the project ran. If there was downtime between sessions, the girls are more likely to collaborate and text and share good stuff. The boys are more likely to guard a good secret, because they want to 'win'.

      A group of girls is always going to be less competitive with each other than a group of boys, unless, of course, they are competing for boys...

    17. Re:What kind of a "study" is this? by towermac · · Score: 2

      You know, something else just occurred to me. This was an already existing computer class, that I bet is an elective course.

      In that case, girls that choose to enter a more advanced computer class are more likely to be hotshots than the more common boys. Skewed sample?

    18. Re:What kind of a "study" is this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or if there's simply are boys in the room.
      Or there are no boys in the room.
      Or none of them are interested in boys in the first place yet. It doesn't matter.

      Really, everyone competes, it's just that boys do it more openly with each-other. It's the difference between "No George! MY pokemon are definitely going to win!" and "you didn't hear this from me, but apparently katie in accounting's been giving blowjobs to customers to get her sales up when you're not here to supervise... Now I'm not saying her son has some kind of "Cee-Oh-Cee-Ay-Eye-ENN-EEE" problem that she's helping him pay for but you'll proooobably want to fire her BEFORE she tells you that she's pregnant so it won't be discrimination."

    19. Re:What kind of a "study" is this? by Kvathe · · Score: 1

      Here are the triggers that were used by girls in the study:

      When the player arrives in area
      When someone says a line
      When someone gets and item
      When someone is killed
      When something walks into trigger
      When something walks out of trigger
      Every six seconds

      Boys did not use the last three triggers. These results are a little misleading though, as the last two triggers were used by girls exactly once, and the third to last was used only three times. It seems likely that there was just one girl more imaginative than the rest of the bunch who used some different triggers and made headlines because of it.

      Girls did score better on average on the computational thinking test before and after the course, but boys had a much larger range. (The top score and bottom scores were both boys).

    20. Re: What kind of a "study" is this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is if you start from scratch. They only have so much time to teach them (I can't imagine them having more than a few hours a week), and it would be much harder to interest most of them in a more complex programming languages.

    21. Re: What kind of a "study" is this? by Kvathe · · Score: 2

      I actually was able to read the study through my university. The story claims that girls are better at making games because they use more triggers than boys--except the other 95% of the time when they use the same triggers, at close to the same frequency as the boys. Of the 108 scripts produced by girls, five of them used triggers that boys did not use, with one extra trigger used three times and the other two used once each. The majority of girls also used the 'when someone says a line' trigger, not just boys.

      The girls did on average score higher in computational thinking and produce more complex scripts.

    22. Re: What kind of a "study" is this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ISPs in the UK censor dozens of websites but schools don't block social networks?

    23. Re: What kind of a "study" is this? by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1
      There was no BASIC (Or even FORTRAN) when I was 13, and transistors had not left the lab, so I stuck to wiring up valves (and believe me, debugging BCD counters made with valves at the age of 13 is not to be sneezed at - touching 200V HT lines when you sneeze is painful :-}.

      I think it is very likely the same percentage of the population that was writing BASIC when you were 13 is doing strange things with js and CSS today, and probably hacking into the router for fun.

      However, its not a very big percentage of the population compared to boys playing FPS and girls into My Little Pony, regardless of politixcal correctness.

      Was Pokemon written by girls? Were Hanna and Barbera girls? Is Pooh Bear secretly a transexual? Soemtimes people ask too many damn questions!

      Don't mention the lawn!

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    24. Re: What kind of a "study" is this? by westlake · · Score: 1

      a lot of game logic these days is specified via visual programming languages... The engine itself and the graphics/rendering parts, along with some computationally sensitive AI bits, will be written in C++, but a lot of the actual gameplay-relevant logic and events are scripted.... Partly this is because in big companies, game logic has moved more and more towards becoming the responsibility of the level and character designers.

      To me, this approach looks a lot like Microsoft's Project Spark. Project Spark tutorials

    25. Re:What kind of a "study" is this? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      This was a UK school so chances are the class was mandatory. Children don't get to choose what they study until the last two years of school in most cases.

      More over, girls do better than boys in general at school. These results are not that surprising.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    26. Re:What kind of a "study" is this? by s.petry · · Score: 1

      As GP stated, "better" is a relative term and without context I can't provide an opinion on who's game I would like better. Complexity on it's own is not a measure. I have a few points of disagreement with your statements.

      For some reason, the boys only used the 1st trigger and the result was a stereotypical "prompt/respond" roleplaying game.

      Stereotypical RPG isn't bad on it's own. What experience did the kids have with RPGs and were they told to design like their favorite?

      Using the other triggers would provide a less stereotypical experience.

      It could also make for a boring game. Context is critical, because puzzles are not the same as nagging dialogue (and we have all seen both).

      Not sure why all the girls did well and all the boys did badly. That seems off.

      The whole article reads like a pro-feminism bias article, not an unbiased piece. Look at some of the other claims in the article, such as women playing more video games than men based on cell phone downloads. And even a mention of Gamergate and a victims name, with the slant that claims it's only misogyny.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    27. Re: What kind of a "study" is this? by Pablew+Nopl · · Score: 1

      I think you're underestimating 12-13 year olds' drive to learn by a long shot.

      Or maybe you're the exception to the rule. Most people are just incompetent or mediocre.

    28. Re:What kind of a "study" is this? by Pablew+Nopl · · Score: 1

      In any case, the girls did better in this case

      In what sense? Whether X is better than Y is subjective. Complexity is subjective. Those requirements are arbitrary.

      How can people take such subjective studies seriously (at least assuming it's anything like the Slashdot title and summary say).

    29. Re:What kind of a "study" is this? by ultranova · · Score: 1

      "Complex stories"? "Two or more parts or conditional clauses"? Two???

      "Trigger their scripts on when a character says something?"

      I am a game developer. I have no idea what they are talking about.

      Ah. So how's Ubisoft treating you?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    30. Re:What kind of a "study" is this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Boys aren't engaged in schooling that is more oriented towards feminine thinking and behaviors. News at eleven. If they had made this programming assignment into a competition, with some sort of prize for winning, I expect there would be a different result. That's assuming that the boys aren't completely checked-out already, due to the school's tendency to punish any expression of masculinity.

    31. Re: What kind of a "study" is this? by x0ra · · Score: 1

      2, an original game-boy and a s-nes. Pretty much the same amount my great-cousin currently have. I was just not a gamer-type guy.

    32. Re:What kind of a "study" is this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When coding complexity is as far from "good" as you can get. Complexity is the silent killer of the codebase.

      This study just concluded that girls respond to social cues and are generally more socially aware...at least that's what I'm seeing in it. I'm not sure that makes them better at making games per se - at least not for a primarily male audience. A better line of thinking here would be "look, we asked girls to make games and they made them like this" which might indicate "this is why girls don't like current games". A complicated game isn't necessarily a better game. Chess is complicated but I don't see hordes of school kids running home to play chess on their PlayStations.

      This study was rigged from the start to find something the girls did differently, measure that singular feature, then conclude that it is somehow objectively better. Really, it could have come down to their choice of color for the game sprite which was somehow a "superior shade of blue". Can we just accept the difference without constantly trying to measure which one is better than the other?

    33. Re:What kind of a "study" is this? by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      What I meant was... why did 100% of the girls do better than 100% of the boys?

      I would have expected overlap between the two populations.

      In similar studies, the average of the females was higher than the average of the males but the extremes of the males were lower and higher than the extremes of the females.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    34. Re:What kind of a "study" is this? by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      I can't see how you come to the conclusion that a richer experience would be a more boring game. Your statement here seems biased to me. You might want to reconsider it.

      I agree with your comments on the article. Someone posted just above here that the actual results were more what I would have expected to see from past experience.

      * Worst was a boy.
      * Average of girls was better than the average of boys.
      * Best was a boy.

      ---

      They also posted the actual triggers above too.

      When the player arrives in area
      When someone says a line
      When someone gets and item
      When someone is killed
      When something walks into trigger
      When something walks out of trigger
      Every six seconds

      I think several of them would make for a more interesting game. In the scenarios I write, I use...

      When a player is in an area, when someone gets an item, when someone is killed, when someone walks into a trigger, When someone walks out of a trigger, and every X seconds. My X varies from 8 seconds to 90 seconds. I don't use "when someone says a line" because minecraft isn't amenable to that or I haven't learned how to do that yet if there is a way.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    35. Re:What kind of a "study" is this? by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Using every tool in the tool box seems objectively better than only using one tool in the tool box.

      If someone wrote a C++ or Java program only using "if then" statements with no objects and ignored objects, case statements, while statements, for loops with conditional exits, etc., I would judge their code to be worse and their mastery of the language to be lower on an objective basis.

      If someone writes an adventure with a tool kit that has 7 tools and they only use the one tool over and over, I objectively judge their mastery to be lower. I agree that whether the adventure they create is fun or not is subjective.

      A wider use of tools is more likely to result in a better scenario however. I say that from experience writing adventure scenarios for decades.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    36. Re:What kind of a "study" is this? by s.petry · · Score: 1

      You are somehow conflating more triggers with a "richer experience". More triggers has no meaning, because it is the implementation that counts. Take the Tomb Raider games as examples of each (simple, nagging, poor, or overly complex). Some of those games were good and others were extremely frustrating and poorly received.

      The results I don't disagree with, it's the measure that I question for TFA's claim of "girls are better programmers".

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  5. Interesting. Could be several causes by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

    Interesting result.

    It will be interesting to see if any of the girls in the class go on to be the next Caitlin Colgrove, Adele Goldberg or Barbara Liskov.

    However, I'd expect more of a bell curve in both genders with the average for girls being better than the average for boys. If the girls uniformly did better and the boys uniformly did worse, that sounds strange.

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  6. Just like young girls dominate other subjects... by Squapper · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...while the boys are focused on learning how to be seen and how to claim territory and space. Are we really surprised when the tables are turned later?

  7. obvious since forever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Girls are adept at imposing conditions while boys just want to stab things.

  8. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now they can move on to the kitchen. Where they all belong.

    And you can go to the toilet to read your copy of the local tabloid while you ponder why you are still single....

  9. best boys by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

    How about key grips & focus pullers?

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  10. Sample size by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I can't get to the study but it seems like the sample size was one secondary school class. That's routhly 30 children. How is this considered a scientific study?

    1. Re:Sample size by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sussex university is not even Ivy league type university over there in the UK. God knows if it has a good ranking locally or globally. So low grade research to be expected. More like tabloid newspaper.

    2. Re:Sample size by tlhIngan · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I can't get to the study but it seems like the sample size was one secondary school class. That's routhly 30 children. How is this considered a scientific study?

      What, you have to do a complete double-blind study with thousands of people just to see if a hypothesis MIGHT be true? Or just to see what happens?

      Here's how the real world works. You have a hypothesis. You design a test to try to test it (this is hard and you may inadvertently introduce an unknown that you're actually measuring). Next comes the expensive bit - data gathering.

      But if your hypothesis isn't cut and dry and your experiment isn't necessarily well controlled (common most of the time because you're not testing stuff like "is the sky blue?" but more open-ended ones like "can girls write nicer than boys?"), you're not going to run a test on thousands because it costs too much. And you may find a flaw in your test that invalidates the whole result.

      So you run a small scale test, and do your data gathering and analysis. Like say, you do it on a class. It won't be well controlled nor a population sample, but it will reveal several things. First, it will tell you if you're blowing smoke up your ass by having a hypothesis that's invalid. Second, it can help reveal issues with your data gathering. Third, it helps you do data analysis quickly - far easier to ensure your results are accurate when you're only analyzing 30 people versus 3000. The former is small enough that you can double-check your analysis programs with manual hand calculations.

      Plenty of research fails because the expected hypothesis was wrong to begin with. Better to have done it and wasted a few thousand dollars than tens of thousands or more. If you're trying to present something to a grant committee, it's far easier to have small scale results that show promise than hand-waving "we thinks".

      And yes, it's possible a larger scale study proves no significant difference. Which isn't a failure - it means you forgot to control a variable. Which means it's still a result and you analyze why you got the results you did that you didn't get int he later study.

      And, a small scale test may even reveal more questions to ask so when you enlarge the dataset, you can do more analysis and maybe if your original hypothesis is invalid, you can still salvage something. Plenty of science was done by doing a study and "hey, that's kinda interesting..."

      30 people may not be population representative, but it certainly produces a result worth studying further, no? You can even do secondary studies like what's the gender population at this level, and compare it a few years later. We always ask why there aren't more females in IT, and inevitably people say "why should we care?" If the population isn't as skewed in the early years, longer term studies can be performed that see why it gets skewed later on. Is it a structural problem, a societal problem, or is it even a problem with IT workers purposely discouraging females from joining? The first we can't do much about (in which case the "why should we bother" crowd is correct), the second we can look at, and the third points the blame solely at IT workers as the main problem (where perhaps it's "IT workers are a bunch of immature boy cliques that treat females as having the cooties").

    3. Re:Sample size by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're unnecessarily snarky. He is perfectly right to question the science; the conclusion IS far too strong for the evidence and methodology.

      This article shouldn't even be on /.. It should only be here if a proper study is done.

    4. Re:Sample size by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He doesn't talk about p-values or confidence intervals, he just "believes" 30 people are very few for a scientific study (which they aren't, by the way). He also takes for granted there were only 30 kids in the study (which is wrong, more like 55 actually) and then he begins to spit bile about how bad the science is when, not only he didn't read the study, he obviously doesn't understand science at all.

      FYI, here's some actual science from the actual paper:
        5.1.4. Pre-test/post-test results by gender

      We then looked at gender differences with respect to the pre/post-test measures reported above. In terms of overall measures of computational skill, for boys the mean pre-test score was 10.46 (SD = 3.48) while the mean post-test score was 12.54 (SD = 3.15), a difference which was highly significant (n = 26, Z = Ã'2.61, p < 0.01). For girls, the mean pre-test score was 12.37 (SD = 3.20) while the mean post-test score was 13.93 (SD = 2.16), a difference which was significant (n = 27, Z = Ã'2.02, p < 0.05).

      [...]

      Given that the girls' scores were higher overall on both the pre- and post-test, we also calculated learning change for both genders, as described in Section 5.1.1. As the girls' scores were significantly higher than the boys' on the pre-test (n = 54, t = Ã'2.10, p < 0.05) there was less room for potential improvement, so taking into account the maximum possible gain or loss given the pre-test score was particularly important here. Learning change for both genders was positive (i.e. both genders exhibited learning gain): the mean learning gain for boys was 31.30%, while for girls it was 35.30%. This difference was not significant.

      You can discuss this if you want, instead of fighting imaginary dragons in your head.

    5. Re:Sample size by tylikcat · · Score: 1

      The paper is about the use of the flip graphical language and their experiences with it as a teaching tool. The gender findings are just mentioned by the by, and have been seized upon by the popular press. (For obvious reasons. Certainly no made less obvious by the super defensive "But that certainly must not be true!" response from so many people here. Oh, /.)

      Mind you, the primary issue isn't one of sample size (though yeah, ideally more would be a plan) but selection, and it appears that the difference between the two groups is pretty large in that class. The problem is that it is a class, which makes it a seriously non-random population. Not a big thing when the point of the paper is "We built this cool teaching tool, and this is our experience using our teaching tool," but if you wanted to make a more general statement about learning, you would want a differently chosen population.

      Or a number of different classes, which doesn't sidestep all of the problems, but is a lot easier to implement.

    6. Re:Sample size by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Girls 'better than boys at making computer games"

      Did the study measure *everything* to do with developing computer games? Documenting, Testing, Graphics Design etc..etc..?

      And of course the sample size/selection matters - if I measure the height of 30 basketball players, and then make a generalisation on the height of the entire human race, is that correct?

    7. Re:Sample size by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I never said it wasn't worth studying, more the case that saying every girl in the entire world is better at making computer games (regardless of age, where they live, their upbringing etc.. etc..) based on a sample set of a single classroom is a pretty bold claim.

    8. Re:Sample size by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It depends on the variability of the trait you want to measure. That's why you'll get different p-values depending on the sample size and the variability. You can get significant results with as few as 10-11 people. But of course, you have to know your statistics and you obviously have no idea about statistics nor science.

      Btw, if I were you, I'd start by reading the article. Then, read the scientific paper. Then, discuss the topic. Right know you keep fighting without arguments against an imaginary scientific result.

    9. Re:Sample size by russotto · · Score: 1

      But what is definitely outside of the range of a statistical fluke is the resulting level of "fem-bashing" on Slashdot. It appears like the majority of postings addressing problems with the study as such combine this criticism with a load of prejudicial bile. That does not point towards "this would call for a larger sample size" or "it would be good to exclude some systematic errors" but rather "we don't want such studies performed".

      Not sure what you mean by "fem-bashing". If you mean bashing women, no. If you mean bashing feminists (particularly a certain sort who advocates not equality but female superiority), yes.

      It appears the reason this study was performed was not to contribute to the sum total of human knowledge, but to produce a pre-determined result (because of the systemic errors included) in order to bash men. We really don't need that sort of study at all.

  11. Girls more developed at 12-13 years by houghi · · Score: 5, Insightful

    News at 11.

    --
    Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    1. Re:Girls more developed at 12-13 years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I've been 12. From experience, no, girls are not more developed at that age. That's the age where girls and boys take off in different directions. Girls imitate more, which makes them look more developed (and more well behaved), because doing your own stuff isn't quite as impressive when you can hardly do anything yet. They're just different, not further along the development axis.

    2. Re:Girls more developed at 12-13 years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, they take different directions really early. Girls start to 'play' house at a very young age and they just continue 'playing'. They seem more mature because they can 'keep' house. (Taking care of younger siblings, cooking food, do some laundry and so on.) They have just trained something that start to get useful at that age in our society.

      Boys on the other hand play more violent and dangerous games that would start to be useful at that age, but isn't in our society. Boys shooting squirrels and birds with BB guns/slingshots/bow and arrow isn't seen as mature here. In other regions (and times) they would hunt small game to bring back to the family.

    3. Re:Girls more developed at 12-13 years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes they are. Females are both physically and mentally more developed than males in that age range. Studies have been showing this for decades. Don't you read Scientific American or Nature? Nope, you have never even picked one up, so you're probably a pathetic social inadequate.

    4. Re:Girls more developed at 12-13 years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unlike you, who have now shown everyone the peak of your mental prowess.

    5. Re:Girls more developed at 12-13 years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let me give you an analogy: The multiplication tables are easy to memorize. It takes little time and even less understanding, and as a result you can quickly do multiplication in your head. Learning how to multiply two numbers without having the result memorized takes longer, requires deeper understanding and doesn't allow you to quickly do multiplication in your head, not even for the relatively small numbers which are covered by the multiplication tables. I observe that girls are more likely to imitate (learn the multiplication tables) and boys are more likely to fend for themselves (don't rely on given results and learn to calculate them instead). If you test for the ability which results from learning the tables, you'll consider girls to be further along the development axis. On the other hand, if you test for the ability which results from learning the underlying math, you won't necessarily consider boys to be more developed, because when the girls are done memorizing, the boys aren't done understanding. That doesn't mean that the boys are idling though. They've just taken a path where their advancement is difficult to see. This conclusion is supported by the observation that girls' results are more consistent and boys' results are spread both lower and higher.

  12. A nice foil to the previous story. by SeaFox · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I like how it's been less than 10 days and already the editors did not think to link to the Barbie: Computer Engineer story, where she only thinks up a design and then has to go to the boys to get the coding done.

    Ironic the fictional land of Barbie, with a supposedly positive message for girls about careers in tech, is more misogynistic than the reality it seeks to change.

    1. Re:A nice foil to the previous story. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +1 Funny

    2. Re:A nice foil to the previous story. by TheReaperD · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Ironic the fictional land of Barbie, with a supposedly positive message for girls about careers in tech, is more misogynistic than the reality it seeks to change.

      I'm pessimistic enough to believe that it didn't seek to change anything. I'm male so I'm not really an expert on Barbie but, everything I have ever seen and heard about "her" indicates that she's an unrealistic rich girl (or gold digger) that is obsessed about her body and possessing things and that the only thing she really encourages young girls to be is trophy wives with maybe an interesting side job for fun. I've never heard of anything that indicates that Mattel has ever truly marketed Barbie as a positive role model for girls to be body positive and self-determining of their own futures. They just give in when popular news pays a little more attention to what Barbie really sells than they are comfortable with because too much focus might actually bring about change.

      Since I stuck my neck into this issue I just want to state, for the record, that women and men should have the same opportunities to become whatever they want to be, whether that be house(wife|husband), coder, combat infantry, CEO or President or anything else.

      --
      "Be particularly skeptical when presented with evidence confirming what you already believe." -
    3. Re:A nice foil to the previous story. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      The book was part of a series. They are trying to change her image, and failing.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    4. Re:A nice foil to the previous story. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't be a dick. Or a cunt.
      "Mansplainers" don't qualify their own beliefs by first acknowledging their limitations.
      It isn't like barbies have some sort of internal life that only kids who are way deep into barbie culture are aware of.

    5. Re:A nice foil to the previous story. by TheReaperD · · Score: 1

      Thank you!

      Besides, this is all about the public perception of Barbie. That means what men "know" about her as well as women.

      Using the term "mansplaining" instantly lost Theaetetus any form of credibility.

      --
      "Be particularly skeptical when presented with evidence confirming what you already believe." -
  13. If I can't... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    shoot it or drive it, it's not better.

    1. Re:If I can't... by x0ra · · Score: 1

      You'll enjoy Depression Quest !

    2. Re:If I can't... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That game is garbage. Aptly named tho.

    3. Re:If I can't... by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      The game doesn't only totally suck - it's misleading to the point of possibly being a health hazard.

      this is an amalgamation of the experiences of the developers and several people close to them.

      In depression quest you can go to talk to a therapist. The therapist will eventually bring up the possibility of medication, and if you say ok, writes you a prescription.

      However, that's not the way it works. Psychiatrists can write prescriptions - neither psychologists nor therapists can.

      In the game, after getting on antidepressants, you get into the habit of socially drinking with people as you become less depressed.

      Mixing antidepressants with booze is a dumb idea.

      Alcohol use while taking antidepressants is discouraged by all manufacturers of the drugs. In addition, alcohol is known to cause or worsen depression and should generally be avoided while on antidepressants. The recurrent use of even small amounts of alcohol (e.g. one drink per day) has been shown to reduce the potential for full benefits of antidepressants. If you choose to drink alcohol while taking antidepressants, you should use extreme caution.

      Even SSRIs, which have the least interaction with alcohol, come with a warning label that says "Do not drink alcoholic beverages."

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  14. I'm not angry, I'm disappointed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I didn't like the title of the original story that was linked to as well as the title of this post. The words "better" and "best" are used to describe the games made by the girls compared to the boys when in reality, the correct words would have been "more complex" and "different".

    I'm all for encouraging more girls to follow their passion and see if they're interested in making games. It's very important that we do it in order to have better diversity of opinions and ideas. But I'm frustrated that they chose to take a study that seems to have interesting results in terms of showing the differences at that age between girls and boys and twisting it to say that the games made by the girls, because of having more triggers for events, made them better.

    It's just very disappointing that this could have been an interesting discussion to talk about the various development of the minds of kids and how it can be observed from making simple games with a visual programming language. Instead, it got ruined by an article that makes incorrect conclusions about the study mentioned and then shoehorns Gamergate in at the end, as if they need to make it any clearer that they had no interest in the study and just wanted something to raise the "Girl power!' flag.

    As for the actually relevant part, the study, I think that the results line up with what we know about girl's performance in schools and how they can pick up concepts very quickly compared to boys. I'd be interested in the visual programming language being used to help process what goes through the minds of boys and girls at that age, especially with how important that age can be in regards to learning.

  15. KILL FEMINISTS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    Maybe because raping unmarried female children to marry them is illegal in WOMENS CUNTRIES?
    (It is Legal in the Old Testament: Deuteronomy 22 28-29 hebrew)

    You feminists need to be killed. You NEED to be killed.
    This woman's world needs to be destroyed or removed.

    Females should NOT have choice.
    Men SHOULD.

    It's the opposite right now.

    Hans Reiser did nothing wrong.

    1. Re:KILL FEMINISTS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hans Reiser did nothing wrong.

      Damn right! Filesystem design is not a crime.

    2. Re:KILL FEMINISTS by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Unless we're talking about NTFS.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    3. Re:KILL FEMINISTS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless we're talking about NTFS.

      Says the 12-year-old who never had the misfortune of using FAT16. Scandisk after every crash? Norton Disk Doctor once-a-week just in case? Yeah, didn't think so. But old wounds leave scars you know, I still run Chkdsk religiously after every crash or power failure, and what does it find? Nothing. No problems, every time. Because NTFS is a mature modern journaling filesystem. Get off my lawn, kid.

    4. Re:KILL FEMINISTS by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      NTFS has a few other nice properties. The OS team kept changing their minds about requirements right up until the first version shipped, so the FS team ended up just creating an efficient store for key-value pairs with large and small values. Everything else is layered on top, by defining special key namespaces. This is why Microsoft has been able to constantly add features to NTFS over its lifespan - very little is set in stone.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    5. Re:KILL FEMINISTS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And then he testified that he's smarter than the jury! which was factually true.

    6. Re:KILL FEMINISTS by x0ra · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Actually, the more I see the behavior of women in western countries, the more I find that Islamic (and religious culture) probably have a point segregating women... Not that I agree with them, to the contrary, but western women are just the worst righteous / egoist / egocentric / presumptuous people there is.

    7. Re:KILL FEMINISTS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love a good B+tree, which is a structure ReiserFS and NTFS have in common. Linked lists are for losers.

    8. Re:KILL FEMINISTS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      If you've read any of the in-depth stories on this, from people following the trial and interviewing Reiser, the all perceive him as a straight out sociopath, narcissist and manipulator. And there had previously been reports of him being physically abusive to his wife.
      .

      I'm not saying I know the full story, but that is exactly my point: If this is true, it is very easy to understand why she sought someone else and wanted away, with the kids. And if you are not familiar with how people in abusive situations and relationships behave and view their options, you might rationalize that she could have gone about it differently.

      But anyway; what I'm saying is that you might be cheering for a monster her. Which is the problem with vigilante justice.

    9. Re:KILL FEMINISTS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      all perceive him as a straight out sociopath, narcissist and manipulator

      Stupid people frequently "feel manipulated" in the presence of brilliant minds, even when no deception is occurring, simply because they are incapable of comprehending the situation.

    10. Re:KILL FEMINISTS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Losers are fine with women sleeping around on them, fucking other guys, being feminist bitches, etc.

      Reiser wasn't fine with that. When confronted with the situation he had a conversation with himself in his head and then choked the bitch out till she was dead. It was nothing to him.

      Capatchata: remiss
      There was none, None needed.

      Like a Stone.

    11. Re:KILL FEMINISTS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Losers are fine with women sleeping around on them, fucking other guys, being feminist bitches, etc.

      We call it cross-linking and it's a common problem with FatFeminist filesystems. ResierFS doesn't tolerate that kind of corrupt behavior from its files.

    12. Re:KILL FEMINISTS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I bet he tells his cell mate that he's smarter than him just before he gets his nighty ass raping.

    13. Re:KILL FEMINISTS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Old Testament is not law.

    14. Re:KILL FEMINISTS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      B* blows the doors off a B+. Knuth knows it. I know it. Now you know it.

      Always balanced.

      And you can do even better! But you first have to know!

    15. Re:KILL FEMINISTS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      all perceive him as a straight out sociopath, narcissist and manipulator

      Stupid people frequently "feel manipulated" in the presence of brilliant minds, even when no deception is occurring, simply because they are incapable of comprehending the situation.

      Well, Reiser can't have been that brilliant, as the stories and defense he tried to spin during the trial constantly got revealed as lies by the lesser people around him. The last journalist to interview him before his confession said "The strangest thing about this murderer is how he never gets away with anything. Nobody ever believes him but he keeps lying anyway."

    16. Re:KILL FEMINISTS by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Structures that require a lot of rebalancing on operations are not always a good idea for disks, as they can require a lot of block writes to occur in the correct sequence to preserve filesystem integrity.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    17. Re:KILL FEMINISTS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      B* blows the doors off a B+.

      Maybe in theory but not in practice. Apple has traditionally used sloppy HFS drivers that negate the benefits of the data structure. The always-balanced nature of a B*-tree imposes additional overhead and Apple sacrificed correctness for speed, making frequent repairs with Disk First Aid an absolute necessity to avoid catastrophic data loss.

    18. Re:KILL FEMINISTS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The Old Testament is not law.

      Maybe not where you come from ...

    19. Re:KILL FEMINISTS by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      No, it was a supposition because he didn't know them.

    20. Re:KILL FEMINISTS by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      Do ... not ... project.

  16. Sussex University? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is it even a Russell Group university? No it's not! So bullshit studies whose result time well with GamerGate. Can females stop leaguing with so-called female victims of GG? It's so unbecoming. It started with the news media, whereby every anti-GG article were written by women or SJW and the likes. When questioned they all admitted to going for harassment angle rather than doing a fair exposé of both sides.

    1. Re:Sussex University? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Article by By Rhiannon Williams (fem).
      Research by Dr Kate Howland (fem) and Dr Judith Good (fem)!

      Can you smell the biasness and bullcrap from where you are? I rest my case. We will need a new study.

    2. Re:Sussex University? by Hognoxious · · Score: 0

      Introducing a new logical fallacy - argumentum ad feminam.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    3. Re:Sussex University? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just like a coin, issues have two sides or are you too stupid to get that in your thick brain?

  17. Well, girls are better at programming... by Mirar · · Score: 1

    My experience is that girls are more commonly better programmers than boys (I've worked with programming for 30+ years). The solutions are more thorough and well-thought in general, and they tend to be better at teamwork, and better at seeking help when they are stuck (instead of being stuck for four weeks until someone pokes them about it).

    I've always been sad there are so few girls in programming, since they would do an excellent job.

    And, for that matter, engineering in general.

    That said, not sure what this study was about and if it gives any conclusion on the matter other than what we already knew - girls and boys have similar brains that can solve complex, abstract problems, and gender difference is overlapped by individual difference...?

    Anyway, girls, if you want to become a programmer, please become a programmer.

    1. Re:Well, girls are better at programming... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My experience from university is that many girls/women are more thorough and dedicated and inventive and collaborative than the average boy, but they're outnumbered by that annoying bunch of Barbies who aren't really interested in learning, and who think they can get boys to do their homework for them with just a smile. The depressing thing is that they can. So actually if girl programmers have a bad reputation, boys are to blame.

    2. Re:Well, girls are better at programming... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Girls should be child brides. That's what they're for. That's why they're cute and get along and listen. They were made to be a nice servant to a man who he could screw too.

      (Read Old Testament)
      We need to take back our planet.

      You state we need to take back this planet while using technology that commands the entire planet as an audience to convey that message.

      I'd say "we" have come pretty damn far. Perhaps you should go speak to the remaining portion of the planet who hasn't escaped a stone-age mentality with this religious crap. They're the morons holding mankind back and usually deferring society into warfare instead of progress.

      Of course, warfare is considered progress when it grows the right bank accounts, hence the problem...

    3. Re:Well, girls are better at programming... by Mirar · · Score: 1

      I'm male. Interesting attack.

      I guess I'm lucky, I haven't been in environments where "cheating" were a possibility - I assume you mean copying stuff and modifying it. The last years I've been doing embedded programming (ECU software, etc), which the few girls I worked with are really good at.

      You seem to have had really bad experiences, if you drop the swearing for a bit it would be interesting to hear the stories and in which environments those people are.

    4. Re:Well, girls are better at programming... by Mirar · · Score: 1

      Exactly this. See the Barbie spectactle recently...

    5. Re:Well, girls are better at programming... by Oligonicella · · Score: 2

      Same amount of experience and I've found that there are a few good ones in both sexes and the rest are dreck. Ratios about the same.

    6. Re:Well, girls are better at programming... by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      So, you're blaming the john and not the pimp?

  18. Doesn't surprise me but... by GuB-42 · · Score: 1

    That girls end up better at game design won't surprise me. They typically have a better understanding of human psychology and I believe that as tools become better, it will become more important than technical skills. 1
    But this study say nothing about what will happen when these kids reach adulthood, or even high school. Girls start puberty about 1 year earlier than boys, with all the associated physical and mental changes. At 12-13, the difference in maturity between boys and girls is huge. Boys start to catch up only at about 16 or so.

    1. Re:Doesn't surprise me but... by x0ra · · Score: 3, Funny

      Boys' games are easy: If someone/something attack, shoot; if someone/something doesn't attack, still shoot. If you encounter a difficulty, blow it up. Boys are more keen to lean toward Scott Adams quote "There are very few personal problems that cannot be solved through a suitable application of high explosives".

    2. Re:Doesn't surprise me but... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I started puberty earlier than my schoolmates but I still didn't develop socially as rapidly as the girls, probably because boys don't have to deal with creepers following them home from school asking them inappropriate questions as often and so on. I don't think it has as much to do with the hormones as with the way they're treated.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  19. This is blatantly sexist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why did the editors let this crap through?

    1. Re:This is blatantly sexist by Smallpond · · Score: 1

      Why did the editors let this crap through?

      YMBNH

  20. No one seems to have any problems.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...with saying that girls (on average) show different skill-sets to boys ("..are better at...").

    But try saying the same thing with people of different colour, nationality or religion...

    1. Re:No one seems to have any problems.... by x0ra · · Score: 1

      Saying what is stated in the article is actually the same as saying that girls are better at literacy because they tends to be more interested by complex novel, rather than comics. By comparison, reading Emile Zola is so much of a boring pain. I hated it. However, reading Tolkien or even Jack London is so enjoyable...

    2. Re: No one seems to have any problems.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everyone is fine with rooting for the "underdog".

  21. Re:Good by x0ra · · Score: 2

    From experience, you have much better likelihood of getting girls while being a bad boy, than a nice guy. My sexual life skyrocketed when I stopped being one.

  22. What does this mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is "The Circle of the Elders of Game Development" now going to consider accepting women into "The Castle f the Chosen 300"? Now that the female has proven herself, she must get the chance to demonstrate her worthiness through a battle to the death! Because THAT is the reason, that so few women are employed in game development. It is not the good old market forces giving the job to the best person, it is because the ancient prophecy demands it!

    No, seriously, what's the deal with all that "women can do x better than men!"? Okay, great. I always prefer a better product to a inferior one, given the same price. What chromosomes the person has who built it, is of no concern to me, or anybody else. I guarantee it. Even the greatest misogynist prefers a 10 dollar steak made by a woman over a 20 dollar shit-sandwich made by a man.

  23. Re:Interesting. Could be several causes by JanneM · · Score: 1

    I can't get to the paper, but it doesn't actually say anywhere that the girls were uniformly better. All subjects improved their understanding of computation, but the girls as a group did significantly better.

    --
    Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
  24. Re: Men's games are rejected (Debian etc) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This just in MikeUSA, no one gives half a shit about your "game", and that's with or without the sexist easter egg you included.

    #NotYourArmy

  25. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'll have you know the best chefs are men. Women are the best housekeepers, though. By far. As long as an infant is in the home. No infant, then the woman is probably down with the plumber, getting her plumbing fixed. Or the landscaper getting her bush trimmed. Or with the neighbor's kid, giving lessons on how to header.

  26. Genetics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The girls used seven different triggers"

    Girls have 7 erogenous zones, boys just 1, at the tip of their cock.

    1. Re:Genetics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, where's the trigger warning?

  27. Re:Men's games are rejected (Debian etc) by x0ra · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Girls *do* write computer games... Zoe Quinn wrote a thrilling game, it is so enjoyable the first page features a link to a suicide hotline !

    No, seriously, I have no idea on which kind of utterly bad trip she was when she wrote that... "thing". Even more calling it a "game". And worth, she tried to market that thing by literally fucking around... She might have mixed shroom, CNS depressant, and a whole cocktail of other drugs to get there...

  28. Re:Men's games are rejected (Debian etc) by x0ra · · Score: 1

    Btw, Randi Harper (aka "freebsdgirl") is writting game too. The principle is actually super duper easy, try to have a rational debate with her, and get flagged as an harasser. The more social media profile you get banned from, the more points you win. Currently, my best score is 2, but working on getting a 3rd point.

  29. Sexist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But if you claim boys are better at other (most) types of programming, it is sexist. Because boys cannot be better than girls at something, but girl

  30. There are frequent stories like that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Girls do better in programming", "girls do better in math".

    Being good at entering new territory does not account for much in the real world unless you are able to secure it. As long as girls find themselves unable to mark territory in GamerGate style and would rather leave, they'll be made to leave. Toxicity (like death caps growing in symbiosis with slow-growing hardwood trees that are better off without bark-gnawing deers) is rarely a freak accident in nature.

    Deficiencies can be compensated with suitable defenses. Males utilize their low sensibilities to create toxic atmospheres in which they are able to prosper without gender competition. Why should females stay in fields they are good at when there is no reasonable emotional return of investment for them in it?

    "What do you mean, you don't think you like your job? This is work, you are not supposed to like it!" is a father-to-son statement. It only makes sense in a male world.

  31. Re:Men's games are rejected (Debian etc) by 91degrees · · Score: 1

    So don't try and have a rational debate with her then. She's clearly not interested and if you make it into a game then you're just being a childish troll.

  32. well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My favorite games have beend made by: Leonard Boyarsky, Jason Anderson, Timothy Cain, Warren Spector, Ken Rolston, Ken Levine, Thomas Biskup, Tarn Adams, with honorary mention of Vince Desiderio and Oscar Jilsén. Well, I'd like to include some girls on this list, but for some reason I always try out the game before checking out who the lead designer is, not otherwise around.

    Oh, and I couldn't care less, how many different triggers have been used in the game.

  33. Re:Men's games are rejected (Debian etc) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Some games are difficult.
    See: Nethack.

  34. And racial breakdown? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh noes, eugenics! Lets just stick to making males look silly, that's acceptable.

  35. Re:Men's games are rejected (Debian etc) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh no... Not the f***ing gamergate again! It's spreading!

    Look, kid, why don't you go watch your porn and masturbate while the adults discuss about interesting stuff that actually happened?

  36. Re: Men's games are rejected (Debian etc) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sup cunt.

    Capacha: cavity

  37. Sussex University? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's only ONE side to all that gamergate bullshit: misogynist children who are incapable of relating to women and since women won't allow them into their world, they won't allow women inside of what they consider their world (videogames). Guess what: you're full of shit and everybody see right through your bullshit. Grow up or get out.

  38. More Information by Kvathe · · Score: 5, Informative

    Fortunately my university provides me with access to the original study, so for those who are interested:

    The study was performed on three elementary school classes with a total of 55 students (29 girls, 26 boys). Despite the small sample size, they did perform a statistical analysis and found the results to be significant (p < 0.001), the results being that girls on average scored higher on a computational thinking test before and after the course. The differences in improvement between genders was not significant and it is worth noting that despite having lower average scores before and after the course, the range of scores for boys in post-testing extended higher and lower than those of girls. I wish I could link the boxplot for the data but I'm not sure that's legal.

    It is also important to note that the study was not performed in order to measure the difference between boys and girls in programming, but to measure the benefits of using their special programming software over an eight-week course. The software itself is indeed very visual, and the 'programming' is done by dragging around boxes with partial statements and filling in the blanks with object boxes. The software then constructs a text interpretation of the code in a lower box, which is what the computational thinking problems related to.

    1. Re:More Information by Kvathe · · Score: 5, Informative

      Additionally: the focus on girls using more triggers than boys is misleading, the three extra triggers not used by boys were used by girls a combined total of five times, with two only being used once. Hardly the huge creative gap that it's made out to be.

    2. Re:More Information by Mirar · · Score: 1

      Thanks. This needs to be upmodded.

    3. Re:More Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      But note: " the range of scores for boys in post-testing extended higher and lower than those of girls"
      If I understand correctly the top boys were better than girls, but there were also a lot of boys that were the poorest performers.

      Fairly typical for academics, girls are generally better boys, but the top performers are boys. Not the politically correct answer the title implies....

    4. Re:More Information by Mikawo · · Score: 1

      I also have a problem with that as a metric. I'm not convinced that the amount of triggers used actually mean anything. It all depends on what a "role-playing game" meant to these kids and what goals were actually being attempted. If all you wanted, perhaps as a first step, was a character that talked to other characters, why would you use any other trigger?

    5. Re:More Information by earthminion · · Score: 1

      Another problem with the study is it would only take one or two people already interested in games design or even just programming, to considerably bias this study, especially if they also helped a few of their friends in the class, which is entirely possible.

  39. Female supremacy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://politicalrift.com/female-supremacy-the-endless-quest-2

  40. Big news! by skovnymfe · · Score: 2

    School forces children to do an activity. Boys cheapskate the task, girls dive into it. What's new here? That's how it was when I went to school.

    1. Re:Big news! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Boys cheapskate the task with a computer, girls dive into it with a computer. See, it's completely different now. For next month they will innovate the experiment by doing it in The Cloud.

  41. I found it very demotivating in high school by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I remember that in high school we were constantly told by the teachers that girls were better at everything. They may have done so with the best of intentions, but a lot of the boys, including me, felt like there was no point in even trying. The only reason I got through it with reasonable grades was because my parents would give me a beating when they were disappointed with my marks. Some of my friends weren't so lucky.

    1. Re:I found it very demotivating in high school by x0ra · · Score: 1

      School has become emasculation factories, because everything about being a boy is considered bad in the progressive morality.

  42. Sample size by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So like with many studies, this poses questions of sample size and, in consequence, of notoriety bias (where statistical flukes challenging the perceived status quo might get more exposure).

    Sure.

    But what is definitely outside of the range of a statistical fluke is the resulting level of "fem-bashing" on Slashdot. It appears like the majority of postings addressing problems with the study as such combine this criticism with a load of prejudicial bile. That does not point towards "this would call for a larger sample size" or "it would be good to exclude some systematic errors" but rather "we don't want such studies performed".

    I find that kind of obsessive expulsionary behavior troubling. It's not like having a testeron-hazed brain is an inherent accomplishment. It's an operating condition that works better for some things and worse for others. But it is not a virtue and hardly a reason for pride or spite.

    The resulting Slashdot discussions from anything touching gender questions are so undignified. They make me want to identify as a transsexual lesbian (even though I am only interested in women regarding my sex life, I am not actively considering a change in my male genitalia and other appearance). Because I really can't identify with "proud" "straight" "males". They are, by and large, embarrassing.

  43. to be fair... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the boys were too busy drooling over the girls and the fact that there were actually girls in the class in the first place.

    1. Re:to be fair... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Girls (female children) are often cute and pretty. That's why feminist women banned them for marraige as the first thing on their list (1800s).

      Men who try to marry girls are sent to prison to be raped by homosexuals today, this makes women happy. It's like the taxi medallion situation.

    2. Re: to be fair... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pede detected!

    3. Re: to be fair... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Deuteronomy 22 28-29 in hebrew says it's fine.

  44. In a related story... by Scepticle · · Score: 0

    ... researchers found that girls totally outshine boys in basketball and football while using more complex and diverse plays. They also learned more because they're smarter. The NBA and NFL have, so far, withheld comment.

  45. You know it's the UK by koan · · Score: 1

    When it's "learnt" and not "learned".

    --
    "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
    1. Re:You know it's the UK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know it's the UK when words are spelt correctly.

      There, fixed that for you.

      Thank you for not breeding.

  46. Couple of thoughts by Alien1024 · · Score: 1

    - Calling Flip a "programming language" is quite a stretch. It is not. That's the whole point in it, in fact.

    - The metric to determine how good a game is is not how "complex" it is, but how much fun it is.

  47. More Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Notice that the average for girls was not as significant as the average for boys (p<0.05). It was significant, though.

  48. DICE SHALL BAN TIMOTHY LORD! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

    Timmyboy is only known for his village idiocy of spreading FUD. This article is nothing else.

  49. Re:KILL FEMINISTS (no, don't) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not balanced then you are not looking at any sort of tree but rather now at a linked list: insert already-sorted data and if you aren't balanced, you have a linked list. Find or insert into, or delete, from that! You want slow? You got slow!

    Some popular implementations work like that; they delay balance until a reindex. It's terrible. Absolutely terrible. And already-or-nearly-so-sorted input is not uncommon. B* is ALWAYS balanced. B+ is not. This is really, really, old stuff.

  50. Of Course they are by wisnoskij · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Girls excel at everything in school. Since the feminisation of the school system their is not a single subject that boys do not lag behind in. It is impossible to compete when the entire system is against you.

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    1. Re:Of Course they are by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously the feminisation prevented you from learning the difference between "their" and "there".

    2. Re:Of Course they are by Theaetetus · · Score: 2

      Girls excel at everything in school. Since the feminisation of the school system their is not a single subject that boys do not lag behind in.

      Leik speeling or grammatical?

    3. Re:Of Course they are by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Posting anon to agree. It's a damned shame, but it is absolutely true.

      And if the boys don't act enough like the girls, drug them until they do.

    4. Re:Of Course they are by Etherwalk · · Score: 2

      Girls excel at everything in school. Since the feminisation of the school system their is not a single subject that boys do not lag behind in. It is impossible to compete when the entire system is against you.

      Try making the critique in a way which doesn't put half of everybody down. What specifically would have been a better system for you and why?

      The system isn't "against you." It just evolved not understanding you. So make it better.

  51. Sounds more like Arts & Crafts by tomhath · · Score: 2

    Maybe this is the future of programming; drag blocks and symbols around the screen so they snap together into a working program. It doesn't surprise me though, visual WYSIWYG editors like Dreamweaver aren't really programming anyway.

    1. Re:Sounds more like Arts & Crafts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't this what Ubisoft used to make the latest Assassin's Creed game?

    2. Re:Sounds more like Arts & Crafts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No it isn't. It's been tried at least once: LabVIEW. It's terrible for any serious projects.

  52. Re:Men's games are rejected (Debian etc) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    YES! It's is spreading and it is REAL. Do some research before commenting bullshit. You can start here.

  53. Re:Men's games are rejected (Debian etc) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And worth,

    Ba, nok da gaim awl u lyke, butt yer speling id event worth.

  54. Re:Men's games are rejected (Debian etc) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's spreading? Bad grammar? Your ass cheeks?

  55. Re:Men's games are rejected (Debian etc) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1/10 I am not even mad but I did reply. Keep up the good work.

  56. 12 to 25 vs. 18 to 25 by tepples · · Score: 1

    Games are not programmed or developed by 12 year olds.

    Commercial console games aren't. But a 25 year old who has been making computer games since 12 is going to have an advantage over someone who didn't write a line of code until university.

    1. Re:12 to 25 vs. 18 to 25 by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      And when girls start programming at 12 in any numbers you'll have a point.

      As of now... nope.

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
  57. Re: Men's games are rejected (Debian etc) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I see you're still suffering from TPS, Tiny Penis Syndrome.

    They have surgery for that now though, so there is hope. Although I don't think any amount of medical treatment will cure your disease.

  58. Subtle Misandry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The last paragraph of the article makes it clear that it's a spin.

    However, the industry has been blighted with accusations of misogyny and harassment after female game developer Zoe Quinn became the target of abuse when her former boyfriend accused her of cheating on him with a games journalist, under the social media hashtag Gamergate

    Yeah, because Gamergate was only about misogyny. Ignore the original issue of journalists fucking developers, developers fucking people for advancement (literally and figuratively), and so called game journalists all publishing similar articles telling consumers of games to die after people started questioning their practices and behavior.

  59. sure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    girls develop earlier than boys and even get better notes by being more organized. Later boys develop at it's full and then things turn the other way around. We have learn't nothing new but another incorrectly done experiment trying to explain how women are being discriminated in society when we in return die more of labour accidents and have overall lower life expentacy. Go grow and cure your hate against male we don't like male hater women nor we need them. And use your skills or your work to get higger payment instead of trying to explain payment gap by discrimination or use the fact you are a woman to get higher pay. We men are the ones discriminated as we don't have maternity leave and that is why we are more valuble for the industry. Tell that to feminist groups that want to discriminate us more.

    1. Re:sure by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      We men are the ones discriminated as we don't have maternity leave and that is why we are more valuble for the industry

      Preferential treatment based on being male? And you claim that men are being discriminated against?

      BTW, here parental leave is split between the parents. They're free to split the time off as they see ft.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  60. Re:Men's games are rejected (Debian etc) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Offtopic? Really? She "wrote" Depression Quest using something called Twine. From the Twine homepage:

    You don't need to write any code to create a simple story with Twine, but you can extend your stories with variables, conditional logic, images, CSS, and JavaScript when you're ready.

    Twine publishes directly to HTML, so you can post your work nearly anywhere.

    So basically it is the web version of Flip (what the kids used in TFA).

    And about Quinn herself:

    she made her first forays into video game programming. Her first game was the result of a six-week course on video-game creation that she attended after seeing an advertisement in a newspaper.

    So here is the real life version of the Barbi video game developer book we saw a few weeks ago.

  61. They finally found a way... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    to distinguish the "men" from the "women" in the UK!

  62. Re:Men's games are rejected (Debian etc) by dugancent · · Score: 1

    Gamergate is a crock of shit.

    --
    SJWs are the new boogeyman. -Me
  63. comic strips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, you CRETIN, reading a comic strip is the same as reading a novel. I mean in both cases you look at words and perceive their meaning to follow a narrative.

    Gaming is MASSIVELY male dominated- and the difficult (and expensive to create) AAA games rely 99%+ on a male customer base. Females mostly 'play' the gaming equivalent to a COMIC STRIP. This is no more 'gaming' in the significant sense than reading the Sunday 'Funnies' is 'reading'.

    Any AAA publisher that tries to be 'politically correct' will see their business tank. Interesting this has happened, indirectly, already- when many traditional AAA publishers attempted to jump on the 'Facebook casual game' trend for the very reason that it attracted a previously untapped customer base, including MANY females. Experiments in casual gaming were HORRIBLE financial disasters for the big boys. But this is good- casual games SHOULD be bottom-up, cheaply produced and often independently published.

    Remember folks- there is NOTHING stopping girly programmers competing in the creation of casual games- costs are rock bottom, and one's identity as a creator is whatever you choose it to be. So clearly, current casual games have a 50% female developer base. Hahahahahahaha! Hohohohohohoho! No problem- just invent another raft of excuses as to why this isn't so.

  64. INIGO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You must be one CRAP coder for the technical PROPAGANDA of this piece to fly over your head- Tell me, do you work on character AI on Elder Scroll games down at Bethesda?

    PS for you Skyrim fans, please, please, PLEASE check out 'INIGO'. A young Scottish bloke who understands WHY you want events triggered in more sophisticated ways has created a companion Bethesda (and the hopeless 'popo') could never conceive in their wildest dreams. "IS COMPLEXITY GOOD?"- the cry of EVERY crap coder.

    This article is BS. Teacher laid down the template of teacher-pleasing work, and the girls simply obeyed more closely, as they are wont (if able) at such an age. Mind you, I will grant that just on the cusp of puberty- the 'best' girls in my experience showed similar aptitude to the better boys. That said, I had taught my brother to be fluent in assembler at 11- UK schools are rubbish at stretching the minds of males before 14 years old.

  65. NO- the teacher showed them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At uni, the worst creeps amongst the lecturers LOVED to give 'special' attention to female students- and I mean the age old tactic designed to get 'in their pants'. But as part of the process, they would help do their 'homework' for them.

    The difference at 12 is the 'good girls' will be more likely to listen carefully to teacher, and teacher will be more likely to GUIDE the little girls in the right direction. The boys get the hint, 'strong' enough to go off on their own, and work things out for themselves. Thus the 'smarter' girls turn in TEACHER'S solution- which is then presented in this propaganda piece as their own.

    It's a lot like some of those reality TV shows where some contestants LISTEN to the expert advice, and some do not. But FOLLOWING INSTRUCTIONS is NOT the same thing as being fundamentally skilled yourself (even if the ability to accurately follow instructions is a USEFUL skillset in itself).

    The problem with programming is that following instructions only gets you so far- and that is NOT very far at all. Most would be programmers fail because their ability to move to the next step is missing.

    To summarise, this Blairite propaganda peice relied on the old psychological trick called PROJECTION. The teacher imprinted on the girls but not the boys. Since teacher's skill made the difference, the group less susceptible to projection 'failed'. The real world of coding does not work this way.

  66. We must exterminate all the males by gelfling · · Score: 1

    Everywhere. Kill them all. But wait, what will women complain about then?

    1. Re:We must exterminate all the males by x0ra · · Score: 1
  67. Smell my vagina! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All the world smell my vagina!

  68. Re:Men's games are rejected (Debian etc) by x0ra · · Score: 1

    At the beginning, I thought she was a reasonable person...

  69. Re:Men's games are rejected (Debian etc) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why is complaining about corruption in games media a crock of shit?

  70. Bullshit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have taken graduate level math classes in 'hard' subjects, and the ratio of females to males was about 2:5. Math is around 40% female by major in the states. So please look up some numbers before you spout nonsense regarding gender ratios. http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/14/percentage-of-bachelors-degrees-conferred-to-women-by-major-1970-2012/

  71. Girls are more focused early on by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My experience is that girls are more commonly better programmers than boys (I've worked with programming for 30+ years). The solutions are more thorough and well-thought in general, and they tend to be better at teamwork, and better at seeking help when they are stuck (instead of being stuck for four weeks until someone pokes them about it).

    I've always been sad there are so few girls in programming, since they would do an excellent job.

    And, for that matter, engineering in general.

    That said, not sure what this study was about and if it gives any conclusion on the matter other than what we already knew - girls and boys have similar brains that can solve complex, abstract problems, and gender difference is overlapped by individual difference...?

    Anyway, girls, if you want to become a programmer, please become a programmer.

    The first company I worked - 90% young hires with only highschool training. Equal ratio of male and female. Females were better because they were less distracted as programming was a job and not an interest as such. I met a few girls (perhaps 3 I knew well) when I went back and did my uni degree in a very male dominated field. As time's gone on that lack of hobby interest has become a real problem - very few women stick with coding for long enough to get really good - they see it as a stepping stone. Whereas a lot of the male programmers I work with still have a passion for it in their 40s and beyond.

    My conclusion is it's not that women can't code well, it's that they're not interested. That lack of interest gives them focus on the job at hand early on but down the track there are fewer who stick with it as they move into management and other roles. Any woman who's interested shouldn't be discouraged and a woman shouldn't be pre-judged based on what genitals she sports. There are exceptions to every rule and there is no need to throw away talented people based on idiotic gender bias. At the same time I don't feel we need affirmative action to even the numbers.

  72. Games are boring by plopez · · Score: 1

    Nothing more than the same rehashed formulas over and over. Nothing much has changed, the same old tired FPS. Or adventure quests which are FPS with elves. No creativity or imagination. Sort of like fast food or the mega beer brewers or the soda manufacturers. The same old formula.

    --
    putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
    1. Re:Games are boring by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Adventure games are no more FPS with elves then are books all about ANYTHING.

      Adventure games can be about anything. If you were a gamer, and you're clearly completely ignorant of the medium, then you'd know adventure games can be about literally anything.

      Are there some very tired AAA franchises? Same thing with super hero movies. It does not mean that all movies are about comic books. The only people that would say that are people that know nothing about movies.

      You know NOTHING about games.

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
  73. Give me a break by cfalcon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If the study found the opposite:

    1)- Would it make slashdot?
    2)- Would there be some social reason given?

    So seriously, why? Choosing 12 years old for the study- instead of 9, say, when boys and girls are basically the same thing- is a very odd choice, given the later development of boys. Choosing 15 would also give very different results. Generalizing the one point of human development when girls are ahead of boys is very odd, but why doesn't the article spend a million words saying that we need to help the boys get on the same level as the girls?

    Almost every sex article- and CERTAINLY every gender one- is so political it's fucking insane.

    There was an anecdote in a recentish book (sorry, blanking on the book) where a teacher noticed that the girls were doing better in language, and the boys in math. This bothered her- after all, boys shouldn't do better in math. Bothered her a lot, because, after all, she "knew" that boys and girls have similar math skills. Her solution was to segregate the boys and the girls math studies, based on the assumption that the girls were being intimidated by the boys, who held up their hands faster, etc. Eventually after doing this, the scores evened out or something, and she was happy that the world was exactly as she thought it was (after a lot of manipulation on her part). But, of course...
    1)- Were the classes taught the same? If you care enough to teach math twice because the girls being behind enrages you, you are unlikely to be the most impartial teacher, right?
    2)- If the girls being ahead in language and the boys being ahead in math enrages you because the boys are ahead, what happened when they split the language classes? They didn't do this part, of course- it was fine that the boys were behind in language. Not even the author relaying the ancedote seemed to consider this point.
    3)- If there really is a better way to teach girls, then it stands to reason that there's a better way to teach boys. There's some gender zealots searching for the first, but shouldn't we be all about the second?

    Anyway, back on topic, the program in question has nothing to do with anything, or real games. This study was likely designed from the start to show this, or spun that way for attention, and the metric for what "better" is seems entirely related to the "types of triggers" used. But I'm sure the rest of slashdot will poke holes in that obvious attention grab metric, and likely point out some more details with the NWN engine.

    What would be interesting would be to take the scripted things and have them rated blindly by another group of 12-13 year olds.

    Anyway, gender politics are so fucking all over the internet, and every side so zealous, that it's ludicrous to see slashdot dip their toe in it. I come here to read about tech, not read about some loopy gender warrior finding a way to spin their point of view (which is one of: sex A is worse at X, and that's society's fault, OR, sex A is worse at X, and that's because gender B is shining and perfect and obviously superior at X).

    1. Re:Give me a break by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > I come here to read about tech, not read about some loopy gender warrior finding a way to spin their point of view

      Well said.

    2. Re:Give me a break by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quite frankly it made it to slashdot because Google amongst other IT companies have been pushing computer science to girls quite heavily.

      There is nothing wrong with that!

      The problem, however, is that they are creating a rift between the genders amongst other side effects. There are better ways to grab the attention of girls for computer science, here is a freebie: Have girl only computer courses. I would utmost highly recommend more evenly balanced courses whereby there would be an equal amount of girls/boys in the computer course. Marketing can promote the computer courses to girls more aggresively to create an equal atmosphere. However, if numbers cannot be matched then there is a severe disinterest by the girls to do these types of course and nothing but time would change that.

      I don't particularly like the whole "girls vs boys" thing. They all see is as some sort of competition when in actuality most IT fields are about seeking a solution to a problem and you're not going to find a solution if you're creating a BS tug-of-war.

  74. Sexist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    White people have created 93 percent of all patented inventions. Why not write an article extolling their mental prowess?

  75. The age of the subjects skewed the results by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The study picked an age where this would be bound to happen. It would be more interesting to see the same study where the subjects where 17 or older.

  76. Re: Men's games are rejected (Debian etc) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The disease of wanting a nice pretty cute young girl? I could see how a woman would think that is a disease: as clearly she is none of that.

    Put out any new games recently, cunt, or ever?
    Do you put out at all?

  77. Needs Explosions by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    "Role playing" is more social. Boys tend to be more physical. Make it more physics- and action-based and you may see a flip, especially if you add explosions.

  78. Re:Men's games are rejected (Debian etc) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Some might say that an incredibly short HTML choose-your-own-adventure book with one ending doesn't qualify as a video game. But to tell the truth, choose-your-own-adventure books do a better job of offering an interactive plot than most "AAA" video games that claim to do so (see: Mass Effect 3). Bringing that kind of format to the game industry is a legitimately good idea - although I would have probably brought the multiple endings

    The problem with Depression Quest is that it doesn't really help anyone. Which wouldn't be a problem, except that the stated purpose of the game was to help people with depression. As I recall, the game's only ending roughly goes "You quit acting like such an asshole, and because of that, you start to feel better." I am, admittedly, not a neuroscientist, a psychologist or even a 10-cent psychiatrist, but I don't think that's how it works. Moreover, the fact that it's the only ending you can get - despite the suicide hotline on the front page - presents a mixed message that a depressed mind is unlikely to accept well.

    One almost gets the impression that it was the work of a privileged white woman who mistook her own experiences with minor emotional instability for clinical depression... or something.

  79. So what by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't care about plot, character development, etc. Whose games had the most explosions?

  80. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Completely agree. It may not "feel good" and it may not jive with PC ideology, but damned if it doesn't work.

  81. Re:Men's games are rejected (Debian etc) by 91degrees · · Score: 1

    Maybe she is, maybe she isn't. But clearly she doesn't want to have this debate separately with hundreds of different people.

    Geez! Go to a public forum and discuss it there. You'll find people who are willing to talk about it, I'm sure.

  82. M/F ability distribution curves are not the same. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Females are clustered around normal whereas males have more exceptionally dumb and brilliant members, the curve is lower and wider. This may come back to chromosomal differences and the greater risks and benefits males face with x-linked variations. This is for genes that are involved in brain development and function, obviously.

    In a nut shell, you can't simplistically compare males and females without being misleading and any reported study results that are simplistic should be clarified, or ignored.

  83. I've not seen this... by troll · · Score: 1

    Most of the posters either denigrated the study or made the assertion that we catch up later in life.
    This defensive response validates the study and shows the insecurity of the male mindset.
    Female minds integrate facts faster and better than the male mind and females multitask better than males.
    I believe that the female mind is more adapted to the psychology of game-making than the male mind. The programming technology for game development allows this difference to manifest.
    Programming is the means to an end. Remove the technological hurdle and the innate abilities show themselves.
    Males are better at learning programming; it's a cognitive task that we are good at. Females want to "get to it" without having to learn the language.

    Girl-invented games would be more relational than sequential, have more intricate plots and provide more variety of response to a (perceived) threat.

    So there.

    --
    Official Pi Ambassador -- inquire for details!
  84. Re:Men's games are rejected (Debian etc) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But to tell the truth, choose-your-own-adventure books do a better job of offering an interactive plot than most "AAA" video games that claim to do so (see: Mass Effect 3).

    As I recall, the game's only ending roughly goes "You quit acting like such an asshole, and because of that, you start to feel better."

    ironically, if you say just that to explain all her 'gamergate problems' you get branded a misogynist. She behaved like an asshole it's no wonder her game is shit and she should feel like shit for it.

  85. Women's brain is horizontally wired by NewYork · · Score: 1

    Women's brain is horizontally wired and good at multitasking.
    Women's brains are designed for social skills and memory while men's are for perception and coordination.
    http://m.timesofindia.com/home...

  86. So basically by nhat11 · · Score: 1

    Boys are dumb and girls are smart, we get it lol

  87. Re:Just like young girls dominate other subjects.. by strikethree · · Score: 1

    Girls were dominant in general when I was in grade school but I dominated them in all classes. Teachers made pets out of the smart girls and tended to ignore me but I did not care. I had as many stars as the top girls did in the lower grades and got as many E's and then A's on tests as the smartest girls as well.

    In the third grade, we had a math face-off competition. All the smart girls ended up on one team and one by one, my team kept falling into the smart girls team until I was the only one left in my team. It was me against the smartest girl. I beat her. The bell rang to end the class but I knew that I had won the entire contest. Once I had the smartest girl on my team, the other smart girls would "fail" to her on purpose and to me because I was smarter. At that point, it was over.

    In summary, girls may dominate subjects in general during grade school but it is not always true.

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    "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen