Thanks for the links... that commercial one is definitely worth considering at only $29. The free one sounds sketchy though... not being actively developed any more.
The drive I'll be storing this data on is external though. So part of me wants to use a native Windows file system so it can be more portable. I'll have to mull over that one.
My problem is that I already have around 120 gigs of data sitting on an NTFS partition, and I really don't want to risk an NTFS->FAT32 conversion on it...
What sort of risks? I have about 120GB on an NTFS drive also. I was planning on formatting the new drive as FAT32 (VFAT) and then just copying one drive to the other. I assumed the Operating System would handle the conversion? Just like if I were copying from EXT2 to NTFS via Samba over a network share.
I have a new 200GB hard-drive on the way that will be here any day now. I plan on using this new drive as a storage drive for music, digital camera images, documents, bookmarks, settings, game save data, e-mail messages, backup data, and so on. If WinXP or Linux irreparably crashes on me, this storage drive (and it's mirrored backup) will contain all the data I care about.
I have two different physical drives in this machine now and I dual boot between them. Linux (for just about everything I do) and then WinXP (for things that absolutely require Windows.)
The new drive I'm getting will be hooked up to my machine externally via Firewire. (I don't need help with the external setup. I already have another drive hooked up this way and it works just fine.)
Now my question is - what is the best file system to use for compatibility between Windows XP and Linux. I require full read/write access to this drive whether I'm in Linux or WinXP. I know NTFS is out. (Even with the 2.6 kernel, write support from Linux to an NTFS partition is limited [can't create new files or directories] and Linux NTFS writing is not considered completely safe.)
I'm guessing VFAT is my only option but I thought I would ask around first.
I do have another machine laying around but I don't want to set it up as an NFS/Samba server for a few different reasons. #1. I don't want to leave the machine on 24/7. #2. I don't want to tie up that machine. I like experimenting with new things so if I turned that machine into a full time server, I wouldn't have a test bed machine any more. #3. I don't like NFS.
I have also thought about one of those Network Area Storage systems. Maybe someday, but at this point in time that idea is out too.
Does anyone have any experience with this? What solutions have you come up with?
eally? You must be looking at a different set of benchmarks to me, because as I see it
So much for the "human readable" aspect of these benchmarks. Everyone seems to be walking away with a different idea of what the results are supposed to be showing.
Since there was no legend explaining what the colors meant, I couldn't figure out anything from looking at them. Is the high number good? As in did the most work? Or is the high number bad? As in took the longest amount of time to do something?
I agree with your hardware and software complaints here.
Well I didn't mean to sound like I was complaining. I was just stating my own issues with the Desktop. I like Linux. I like it a lot. I have been using it fairly regularly since 97/98 as a server for ftp and/or secure ftp via ssh, e-mail, dns, apache, samba, secure shell login, and have even tinkered around with writing some Python cgi apps.
In all these years, I have revisited the idea of bringing Linux over to my main Desktop about once or twice a year. I have seen improvements but for me, it's still not an option. I guess the main thing for me is that I look at Desktop computing as being vastly different from server computing. With my Desktop, I just want stuff to work with minimal tinkering. Whereas with my server, I'm far more willing to spend hours tinkering with the details.
But I wanted to respond to one thing you said in the beginning, that you're an "end user" and not a professional programmer. I think that this viewpoint is part of the main difference between Linux (and pretty much all of the open source world) and Microsoft.
Yeah I think that's pretty accurate. But I think a lot of Linux users surround themselves with other computer enthusiasts and as a result they'll often have unrealistic expectations of what should be expected from "Joe User".
But I just wanted to insinuate that the real power of Linux is seen when you think like a programmer, and learn a little about shell scripting or Perl, Python, Tcl, or whatever. In Linux, a little knowledge goes a long way.
Most definitely. But keep in mind that most end users couldn't care less about Operating Systems, Open Source vs. proprietary, and so on. To them the computer is just a device that lets them check e-mail and download mp3's. They don't care any more about their computer than they do their Microwave. Knowledge about any given thing will always help a person. I recently took my Jeep in because my Check Engine light was coming on. I didn't know what the problem was and frankly I didn't really care. I'm not a gear head. I have no desire to learn how automobiles work. And even if I did want to know I would be pretty screwed because I don't have time to learn. There are a finite number of hours in a day. No one can know everything. I chose my career path and it didn't involve learning how to work on cars. And I have a wife I want to spend time with, a house that needs taken care of, and other things. So my point is, I fully understand that most people don't know or care about the details of computers because it isn't their chosen career or their hobby. But unlike so many of the Zealots you see on Slashdot, I don't think less of people just because I am more interested in computers than they are. Seems hypocritical to me. Because wouldn't that mean that my Doctor or a car mechanic should think I was less of a human because I didn't learn as much about medicine or mechanics as they did? (As a side note, I have encountered Doctors with a God complex. They talk down to you. They are condescending. They think they know everything. And their knowledge and skill is impressive. But it's relative, as is computer knowledge.)
...Microsoft has this, and has abused it to what I see as their unfair advantage...
I agree with everything you said. Competition is a great thing. Intel vs. AMD, NVidia vs. ATI, all the motherboard manufacturers, chipset makers, and so on. I do hope that Linux will become a genuine success on the Desktop. But in order for that to happen, things are going to have to be easy enough for "grandma" or "Joe Walmart" to use. And if GNU/Zealots don't like it, because it infringes on their leet, redneck, rebel-without-a-clue attitude, then they'll have to find some other soap box to get on.
Actually I was genuinely curious. I'm not out to dehumanize people who are stuck with Windows. I just feel sorry for you, that's all.:)
Why feel sorry for me? What I do with Windows works for me. If I were to use Linux as a replacement for my main Desktop as opposed to just using it on my secondary machine, then I would be severly limited. And then you could rightfully feel sorry for me.
Your mention of a M$ Flight Simulator is an excellent example that I hadn't considered...
M$? Does it make you feel more "leet" to use a $ in place of the S? Sorry, I don't mean to be confrontational but saying M$ or Microshaft or Winblows seems about as childish as Mac users who call PC's Pee Cee's.
Hmm... I wouldn't buy an iPod myself, I've got an MP3 CD player that works just fine and is infinitely expandable. (And well-supported by Linux!) You didn't get the VW Beetle with that iPod, did you? (In which case I will debunk everything you say and dehumanize you.)
No, I don't have a VW Beetle. I drive a Jeep. I spent days researching MP3 players before I finally chose the iPod. At the time, it was the only one that met my criteria of a small physical size, long battery life, a decent warranty, and large storage capacity. And even then I wasn't going to buy it except I ran into a deal that I decided I couldn't pass up. A double discount from Dell.com which in effect was a $100 instant off coupon. There is a new MP3 player out now by creative labs called the Nomad Zen NX that I would seriously consider buying now though if I were buying now instead of several months ago.
Okay, this one I agree wholeheartedly with. Print/Scan/Fax in Linux varies between great and absolute shit. I've never gotten a scanner to work in Linux. (I tried a couple, but gave up.) HP DeskJet printing tends to waste ink. (Black text should be black ink only, damnit!) It's not quite a show-stopper for me, though.
It's not really a show stopper for me either but it is just one more thing that reinforces why I still can't personally make that jump over to Linux for my *main* Desktop.
[(The list goes on - but since I doubt you'll read this anyway I'm not going to waste my time with anything more.)]
You were wrong.:)
Indeed.
To an extent, I agree with your sentiment... but I guess the main thing is our divergent interests. I can say that Linux has worked well for me, but I've been conscious of what kind of hardware I should buy and what kind of software I actually need for years.
To some extent I do take Linux into consideration when considering a new hardware purchase. And when it comes to software, I'm always on the lookout for Open Source or just really good free-beer programs. I think more often than not that free or Free software works just as well, and sometimes better. This is a good site for Open Source Windows programs.
Right now, I can say that my machine runs well, and Linux supports all the hardware I currently use. I guess I got the better mileage.
Uhh.. ok? My machine does what I need it to do just fine.
But, I do accept the fact that some people need these things and are better off with Windows for the time being.
Felt the need to comment on that line as well. I wish more people like you would speak out more often and more loudly. I think the Linux community (or at least the average person's opinion of that community [myself included]) is as responsible for driving people away from Linux as the O/S itself. (If not more so. [More so in my case.])
The Linux Zealots are always the loudest and most outspoken and that's a real shame. They act as if people should have an innate ability to understand source code compilation, security implications, command line switches, data packets, and on and on. I think it's highly hypocritical to expect such a thing when they themselves don't know or care how to [insert thing here]. No one can know everything. But Zealots don't think twice about what they don't know.
Just wanted to note that I am adding you to my friends list since you are one of the rare Windows users who doesn't disparage Linux as sucking outright.
Zealots are Zealots no matter what platform they use. Windows Zealotism is just as wrong. Sometimes I find the hatred coming out of the unsilent minority Linux camp so overwhelming though that I almost feel sorry for the Windows people. Huh? Am I nuts? No, I don't think so. Take this following bit for example. (It's a copy/paste I wrote in another thread a month or so ago regarding a new user's first experience with Linux that I see all too often.)
First, the Linux Zealot (we'll call him LZ for short) convinces his friend to dump that crappy "Money$haft Winblows" Operating System and install Linux. Two days later LZ is riding his friend's behind as to why he is using that "sell out" RedCrap distro. So LZ convinces his friend to install Debian or Slackware. A month later the friend finally gets Debian installed (it takes him a month because every time he asks LZ for help, LZ just replys "RTFM!"). LZ shows up again after his friend - who is beaming with pride - calls LZ over to show him he just finished setting up his Debian install all by himself. The LZ starts hounding his friend about the pussified Gnome or KDE Desktop he's running. "That's for cowards. We elitists use BlackBox!", the LZ says. So LZ's humilated friend installs BlackBox (or whatever). A few days later LZ comes back over and sees his friend running an XChat IRC client. LZ totally loses it. "What are you doing???? A GUI IRC client??? Have you lost your mind????" In his anger, the LZ fdisks his friend's machine and storms out.
A month later the friend gets so sick of LZ's condescending attitude that he drops his PC in a river and goes out and buys a Mac. Then he (rightfully so) starts posting messages on Slashdot about how much he hates Linux.
Would you mind naming these software and hardware?
Sure. You readily admit to using RedHat 9 and KDE/Gnome so I guess it's safe to assume you're not a Linux elitist who will just debunk everything I say and dehumanize me.
Software (no particular order).
First, Waste. And before you say "the source code is available moron, so RTFM and just compile it yourself stupid." or "there is a Linux client you braindead idiot"; you should know I tried compiling it myself to no avail. I know very little about programming so at the first sign of problems with the compilation, I'm pretty much done. Computer programming isn't my career and I think it's unreasonable to expect an end user to have to become a computer programmer just to use a piece of software. Secondly, the Linux client that was made available by some guy who did know enough about programming to get it to compile is pretty useless. It still requires you to go into Windows to generate your keys and to get the waste config files in the format they need to be in - thereby defeating the "get me off of Windows" idea, and the client is completely stripped down. It can't do anything except serve files for download by remote users. You can't send files to anyone from your client, and no one can send files to you. So on that note, if you know of some other secure, private, P2P software like Waste that will actually run on Linux, I would certainly check it out. Has to be a Windows version also though. As shocking as this may be to Linux users, there are actually some people who just don't care about Operating Systems. So they tend to go with whatever O/S came installed on their system.
Next, Flight Simulator 2004. I've used X-Plane. It's alright, but I think Flight Simulator is better. I don't think X-Plane sucks by any means though.
A couple of friends and I recently started using Skype. There's no Linux version as far as I know. I would happily try some other VoIP program on Linux as long as there was a Windows version as well. There's no chance of me getting my mom on Linux.:)
[Insert name of game here] and there's probably an 80% or greater chance it won't run in Linux.
There are many more programs but I don't have all day to write and you probably won't even get this anyway. So I'll move on to hardware.
First thing that comes to mind is my iPod. The Linux support I've seen for the iPod has been pretty scarry.
My webcam. After 3 1/2 years of not working at all, Linux can finally interact with it. But the driver quality is really bad compared to the Windows driver.
No idea if my flight pedals and flight yoke would work in Linux even if there was a Linux version of Flight Simulator.
My all-in-one Fax/Scanner/Copier/Printer becomes an none-but-one device in Linux. The printer works, the rest don't. Although in my latest tinkerings with XSane, I was finally able to scan an image. But again, the driver quality is so lack luster that there's no way I can use it. I'm willing to "sacrifice" some ease of use for the greater good of Open Source, but there's a fine line between a little sacrifice and cruel and unusual punishment.
The list goes on - but since I doubt you'll read this anyway I'm not going to waste my time with anything more.
Please write to the hardware manufacturers. Tell them you want Linux support and drivers.
Normally I would because I think it helps to show the hardware manufacturers that someone wants Linux support. If enough of us do it, then hopefully they will give in. But my webcam was a unique situation. It is a 3Com HomeConnect webcam (not the crappy lite version). The cam is actually manufactured by ViCAM who - based on what I've read on their web site - are very Linux savvy people. Unfortunately ViCAM sold the rights to the cam to 3Com so according to the guy who responded to the e-mail I sent, they no longer have the right to release drivers for the product. And it gets worse. 3Com dropped support for the cam. They no longer make it. It *really* sucks that this happened because this cam is far and above the absolute BEST webcam I have ever used. And I have tried several. Intel, Logitech, even the ultra expensive Axis netcam (which has Linux firmware by the way). None of the other cams I've tried, including my $1,000+ Sony DV cam can compete with the image quality I get from my 3Com cam in normal lighting. My Sony DV cam does great as long as I can flood the room with an unrealistic amount of light. But the 3Com cam works perfectly with typical poor indoor lighting.
P.s. Are you SURE you're a long time Linux user? You don't seem to fit the profile of a long time Linux user:
Yes - I'm very sure. And I think what you mean is that I don't fit the profile of a Linux Zealot. And you're right. And I'm glad I don't. You guys are the bane of the Linux community.
My observation with the linux progress is that the unsupported hardware is typically the latest and greatest hardware.
That's probably true a lot of the time, or even most of the time. But in the case of my webcam, for example, there was no working driver for it for years after it came out. And now that there is a working driver for it, as I said in my original post, it's very poorly done. My HP OfficeJet G85 is another example of a spotty/lousily supported piece of hardware. And I recently bought a Matrox Parhelia tripple head video card. At this point I haven't even bothered looking to see if there's a Linux driver for it. I'm almost afraid of what I might run into.:)
These are real world Desktop devices. I don't suspect too many people are going to be willing to have 2nd rate support for some piece of hardware they bought.
(I hope I don't sound confrontational like so many others on/.)
You better have said: I do not use Linux because i do not get it. I do not understand its power and capabilities.
Being a (relatively) long time Linux user, I can tell you this comment is just Zealotism (Linux elitisism). And that type of attitude is what drives people away from Linux in the first place. It's really getting old and if you would like to see Linux improve, you need to come down off your high horse and realize that not everyone is as interested in the details of the Operating System as you are. A lot of people just want the O/S to work. And the funny thing is, so do all the Linux Zealots. Every time something new and grand happens with the Linux kernel, all the Zealots come flying out of the woodwork to praise how mighty and wonderful Linux is. Funny how that when Windows or Mac OS brought in that same feature 4 or 5 years ago that all those same people laughed about how dumb and needless it was. The hypocracy with you Linux Zealots is truly pathetic.
I'm still using Win2K but I have left OE and IE behind, at least... feels good.
I'm in that same boat. I use XP Pro for the O/S but try to use Open Source alternatives wherever else I can. Open Office and Mozilla Firebird the most noteworthy I guess.
Why not just use RedHat or something? Well, it's not like I haven't tried. I have been tinkering with running Linux on the Desktop since about 1997 or 1998. It has definietly come along way, but like you read in so many articles on this top, it's just "not there yet."
I do have RH9 installed on another machine but it always comes back to the same thing. Some program I need/want doesn't exist for Linux or some hardware that I use won't work, or at best works very poorly.:(
Seriously, I use Windows and OOo, and there isn't anything I can't do with them as far as I know.
Same here. I actually find Open Office more usable than MS Office. Open a document in MS Word, leave it open and untouched for 15 minutes, then try to close it out. It warns you that your changes have not been saved? Uhh... ok? I find that very annoying. It makes me feel like Word corrupted my document just by being open.
That fact aside, what do *most people* really need with MS Office that they can't get from some free alternative? Granted *most people* probably just pirated their copy of MS Office anyway so they don't care about the $300-$500 pricetag, but with software gaining online intelligence, those days are going to come to an end soon enough. So many programs check for automatic updates when you start them now. Now that people are good and use to that idea, the next phase is to have said software application verify that it was paid for.
I actually e-mailed my mom and asked her because I was so curious. The "green" phones that we had - which were the earliest ones I could remember - were actually leased from the phone company. I was never aware of it. Learn something new all the time, eh?
Relative to pretty much anything that matters, yep.
Considering the time scale, I wouldn't say 30 years was recent when dealing with phones which have only existed for little more than a hundred years. (Invented in 1876 but not popularized until years later.) 30 years is almost a quarter of that time. That's not exactly recent. *Relative* to my own life, I don't consider the things that happened when I was 20 (a quarter of my life past - I'm 27 now), "recent" events in my life.
No, but up until relatively recently you couldn't get your own phone at all
Uhh... how recent are you talking? I'm 27 years old and I as far back as I can remember (at least 20 years), my parents had their own store bought phone.
See, the thing is, most of the Linux community is this way. Unfortunately, there is a verbal minority that keeps getting the limelight and the media jumps on that. It's the whole "squeaky wheel gets the grease" syndrome.
You're right. I have just been inundated by the squeaky wheels to the point that I couldn't take it any more. Many (not all) in the Linux crowd want to be more l33t than thou. Their life isn't complete if they aren't running their own home brew distro, or a Linux from scratch install.
Those types of guys are like this.
First, the Linux Zealot (we'll call him LZ for short) convinces his friend to dump that crappy "Money$haft Winblows" Operating System and install Linux. Two days later LZ is riding his friend's behind as to why he is using that "sell out" RedCrap distro. So LZ convinces his friend to install Debian or Slackware. A month later the friend finally gets Debian installed (it takes him a month because every time he asks LZ for help, LZ just replys "RTFM!"). LZ shows up again after his friend calls him over to show him he just finished setting up his Debian install all by himself. The LZ starts hounding his friend about the pussified Gnome or KDE Desktop he's running. "That's for cowards. We elitists use BlackBox!", the LZ says. So LZ's humilated friend installs BlackBox (or whatever). A few days later LZ comes back over and sees his friend running an XChat IRC client. LZ totally loses it. "What are you doing???? A GUI IRC client??? Have you lost your mind????" In his anger, the LZ fdisks his friend's machine and storms out.
A month later the friend gets so sick of LZ's condescending attitude that he drops his PC in a river and goes out and buys a Mac. Then (rightfully so) starts posting messages on Slashdot about how much he lates Linux Zealots.
Slashdot Mirror
Thanks for the links... that commercial one is definitely worth considering at only $29. The free one sounds sketchy though... not being actively developed any more.
The drive I'll be storing this data on is external though. So part of me wants to use a native Windows file system so it can be more portable. I'll have to mull over that one.
My problem is that I already have around 120 gigs of data sitting on an NTFS partition, and I really don't want to risk an NTFS->FAT32 conversion on it...
What sort of risks? I have about 120GB on an NTFS drive also. I was planning on formatting the new drive as FAT32 (VFAT) and then just copying one drive to the other. I assumed the Operating System would handle the conversion? Just like if I were copying from EXT2 to NTFS via Samba over a network share.
I have a new 200GB hard-drive on the way that will be here any day now. I plan on using this new drive as a storage drive for music, digital camera images, documents, bookmarks, settings, game save data, e-mail messages, backup data, and so on. If WinXP or Linux irreparably crashes on me, this storage drive (and it's mirrored backup) will contain all the data I care about.
I have two different physical drives in this machine now and I dual boot between them. Linux (for just about everything I do) and then WinXP (for things that absolutely require Windows.)
The new drive I'm getting will be hooked up to my machine externally via Firewire. (I don't need help with the external setup. I already have another drive hooked up this way and it works just fine.)
Now my question is - what is the best file system to use for compatibility between Windows XP and Linux. I require full read/write access to this drive whether I'm in Linux or WinXP. I know NTFS is out. (Even with the 2.6 kernel, write support from Linux to an NTFS partition is limited [can't create new files or directories] and Linux NTFS writing is not considered completely safe.)
I'm guessing VFAT is my only option but I thought I would ask around first.
I do have another machine laying around but I don't want to set it up as an NFS/Samba server for a few different reasons. #1. I don't want to leave the machine on 24/7. #2. I don't want to tie up that machine. I like experimenting with new things so if I turned that machine into a full time server, I wouldn't have a test bed machine any more. #3. I don't like NFS.
I have also thought about one of those Network Area Storage systems. Maybe someday, but at this point in time that idea is out too.
Does anyone have any experience with this? What solutions have you come up with?
eally? You must be looking at a different set of benchmarks to me, because as I see it
So much for the "human readable" aspect of these benchmarks. Everyone seems to be walking away with a different idea of what the results are supposed to be showing.
Since there was no legend explaining what the colors meant, I couldn't figure out anything from looking at them. Is the high number good? As in did the most work? Or is the high number bad? As in took the longest amount of time to do something?
I agree with your hardware and software complaints here.
Well I didn't mean to sound like I was complaining. I was just stating my own issues with the Desktop. I like Linux. I like it a lot. I have been using it fairly regularly since 97/98 as a server for ftp and/or secure ftp via ssh, e-mail, dns, apache, samba, secure shell login, and have even tinkered around with writing some Python cgi apps.
In all these years, I have revisited the idea of bringing Linux over to my main Desktop about once or twice a year. I have seen improvements but for me, it's still not an option. I guess the main thing for me is that I look at Desktop computing as being vastly different from server computing. With my Desktop, I just want stuff to work with minimal tinkering. Whereas with my server, I'm far more willing to spend hours tinkering with the details.
But I wanted to respond to one thing you said in the beginning, that you're an "end user" and not a professional programmer. I think that this viewpoint is part of the main difference between Linux (and pretty much all of the open source world) and Microsoft.
Yeah I think that's pretty accurate. But I think a lot of Linux users surround themselves with other computer enthusiasts and as a result they'll often have unrealistic expectations of what should be expected from "Joe User".
But I just wanted to insinuate that the real power of Linux is seen when you think like a programmer, and learn a little about shell scripting or Perl, Python, Tcl, or whatever. In Linux, a little knowledge goes a long way.
Most definitely. But keep in mind that most end users couldn't care less about Operating Systems, Open Source vs. proprietary, and so on. To them the computer is just a device that lets them check e-mail and download mp3's. They don't care any more about their computer than they do their Microwave. Knowledge about any given thing will always help a person. I recently took my Jeep in because my Check Engine light was coming on. I didn't know what the problem was and frankly I didn't really care. I'm not a gear head. I have no desire to learn how automobiles work. And even if I did want to know I would be pretty screwed because I don't have time to learn. There are a finite number of hours in a day. No one can know everything. I chose my career path and it didn't involve learning how to work on cars. And I have a wife I want to spend time with, a house that needs taken care of, and other things. So my point is, I fully understand that most people don't know or care about the details of computers because it isn't their chosen career or their hobby. But unlike so many of the Zealots you see on Slashdot, I don't think less of people just because I am more interested in computers than they are. Seems hypocritical to me. Because wouldn't that mean that my Doctor or a car mechanic should think I was less of a human because I didn't learn as much about medicine or mechanics as they did? (As a side note, I have encountered Doctors with a God complex. They talk down to you. They are condescending. They think they know everything. And their knowledge and skill is impressive. But it's relative, as is computer knowledge.)
...Microsoft has this, and has abused it to what I see as their unfair advantage...
I agree with everything you said. Competition is a great thing. Intel vs. AMD, NVidia vs. ATI, all the motherboard manufacturers, chipset makers, and so on. I do hope that Linux will become a genuine success on the Desktop. But in order for that to happen, things are going to have to be easy enough for "grandma" or "Joe Walmart" to use. And if GNU/Zealots don't like it, because it infringes on their leet, redneck, rebel-without-a-clue attitude, then they'll have to find some other soap box to get on.
Actually I was genuinely curious. I'm not out to dehumanize people who are stuck with Windows. I just feel sorry for you, that's all. :)
:)
Why feel sorry for me? What I do with Windows works for me. If I were to use Linux as a replacement for my main Desktop as opposed to just using it on my secondary machine, then I would be severly limited. And then you could rightfully feel sorry for me.
Your mention of a M$ Flight Simulator is an excellent example that I hadn't considered...
M$? Does it make you feel more "leet" to use a $ in place of the S? Sorry, I don't mean to be confrontational but saying M$ or Microshaft or Winblows seems about as childish as Mac users who call PC's Pee Cee's.
Hmm... I wouldn't buy an iPod myself, I've got an MP3 CD player that works just fine and is infinitely expandable. (And well-supported by Linux!) You didn't get the VW Beetle with that iPod, did you? (In which case I will debunk everything you say and dehumanize you.)
No, I don't have a VW Beetle. I drive a Jeep. I spent days researching MP3 players before I finally chose the iPod. At the time, it was the only one that met my criteria of a small physical size, long battery life, a decent warranty, and large storage capacity. And even then I wasn't going to buy it except I ran into a deal that I decided I couldn't pass up. A double discount from Dell.com which in effect was a $100 instant off coupon. There is a new MP3 player out now by creative labs called the Nomad Zen NX that I would seriously consider buying now though if I were buying now instead of several months ago.
Okay, this one I agree wholeheartedly with. Print/Scan/Fax in Linux varies between great and absolute shit. I've never gotten a scanner to work in Linux. (I tried a couple, but gave up.) HP DeskJet printing tends to waste ink. (Black text should be black ink only, damnit!) It's not quite a show-stopper for me, though.
It's not really a show stopper for me either but it is just one more thing that reinforces why I still can't personally make that jump over to Linux for my *main* Desktop.
[(The list goes on - but since I doubt you'll read this anyway I'm not going to waste my time with anything more.)]
You were wrong.
Indeed.
To an extent, I agree with your sentiment... but I guess the main thing is our divergent interests. I can say that Linux has worked well for me, but I've been conscious of what kind of hardware I should buy and what kind of software I actually need for years.
To some extent I do take Linux into consideration when considering a new hardware purchase. And when it comes to software, I'm always on the lookout for Open Source or just really good free-beer programs. I think more often than not that free or Free software works just as well, and sometimes better. This is a good site for Open Source Windows programs.
Right now, I can say that my machine runs well, and Linux supports all the hardware I currently use. I guess I got the better mileage.
Uhh.. ok? My machine does what I need it to do just fine.
But, I do accept the fact that some people need these things and are better off with Windows for the time being.
Felt the need to comment on that line as well. I wish more people like you would speak out more often and more loudly. I think the Linux community (or at least the average person's opinion of that community [myself included]) is as responsible for driving people away from Linux as the O/S itself. (If not more so. [More so in my case.])
The Linux Zealots are always the loudest and most outspoken and that's a real shame. They act as if people should have an innate ability to understand source code compilation, security implications, command line switches, data packets, and on and on. I think it's highly hypocritical to expect such a thing when they themselves don't know or care how to [insert thing here]. No one can know everything. But Zealots don't think twice about what they don't know.
Just wanted to note that I am adding you to my friends list since you are one of the rare Windows users who doesn't disparage Linux as sucking outright.
Zealots are Zealots no matter what platform they use. Windows Zealotism is just as wrong. Sometimes I find the hatred coming out of the unsilent minority Linux camp so overwhelming though that I almost feel sorry for the Windows people. Huh? Am I nuts? No, I don't think so. Take this following bit for example. (It's a copy/paste I wrote in another thread a month or so ago regarding a new user's first experience with Linux that I see all too often.)
First, the Linux Zealot (we'll call him LZ for short) convinces his friend to dump that crappy "Money$haft Winblows" Operating System and install Linux. Two days later LZ is riding his friend's behind as to why he is using that "sell out" RedCrap distro. So LZ convinces his friend to install Debian or Slackware. A month later the friend finally gets Debian installed (it takes him a month because every time he asks LZ for help, LZ just replys "RTFM!"). LZ shows up again after his friend - who is beaming with pride - calls LZ over to show him he just finished setting up his Debian install all by himself. The LZ starts hounding his friend about the pussified Gnome or KDE Desktop he's running. "That's for cowards. We elitists use BlackBox!", the LZ says. So LZ's humilated friend installs BlackBox (or whatever). A few days later LZ comes back over and sees his friend running an XChat IRC client. LZ totally loses it. "What are you doing???? A GUI IRC client??? Have you lost your mind????" In his anger, the LZ fdisks his friend's machine and storms out.
A month later the friend gets so sick of LZ's condescending attitude that he drops his PC in a river and goes out and buys a Mac. Then he (rightfully so) starts posting messages on Slashdot about how much he hates Linux.
Would you mind naming these software and hardware?
:)
Sure. You readily admit to using RedHat 9 and KDE/Gnome so I guess it's safe to assume you're not a Linux elitist who will just debunk everything I say and dehumanize me.
Software (no particular order).
First, Waste. And before you say "the source code is available moron, so RTFM and just compile it yourself stupid." or "there is a Linux client you braindead idiot"; you should know I tried compiling it myself to no avail. I know very little about programming so at the first sign of problems with the compilation, I'm pretty much done. Computer programming isn't my career and I think it's unreasonable to expect an end user to have to become a computer programmer just to use a piece of software. Secondly, the Linux client that was made available by some guy who did know enough about programming to get it to compile is pretty useless. It still requires you to go into Windows to generate your keys and to get the waste config files in the format they need to be in - thereby defeating the "get me off of Windows" idea, and the client is completely stripped down. It can't do anything except serve files for download by remote users. You can't send files to anyone from your client, and no one can send files to you. So on that note, if you know of some other secure, private, P2P software like Waste that will actually run on Linux, I would certainly check it out. Has to be a Windows version also though. As shocking as this may be to Linux users, there are actually some people who just don't care about Operating Systems. So they tend to go with whatever O/S came installed on their system.
Next, Flight Simulator 2004. I've used X-Plane. It's alright, but I think Flight Simulator is better. I don't think X-Plane sucks by any means though.
A couple of friends and I recently started using Skype. There's no Linux version as far as I know. I would happily try some other VoIP program on Linux as long as there was a Windows version as well. There's no chance of me getting my mom on Linux.
[Insert name of game here] and there's probably an 80% or greater chance it won't run in Linux.
There are many more programs but I don't have all day to write and you probably won't even get this anyway. So I'll move on to hardware.
First thing that comes to mind is my iPod. The Linux support I've seen for the iPod has been pretty scarry.
My webcam. After 3 1/2 years of not working at all, Linux can finally interact with it. But the driver quality is really bad compared to the Windows driver.
No idea if my flight pedals and flight yoke would work in Linux even if there was a Linux version of Flight Simulator.
My all-in-one Fax/Scanner/Copier/Printer becomes an none-but-one device in Linux. The printer works, the rest don't. Although in my latest tinkerings with XSane, I was finally able to scan an image. But again, the driver quality is so lack luster that there's no way I can use it. I'm willing to "sacrifice" some ease of use for the greater good of Open Source, but there's a fine line between a little sacrifice and cruel and unusual punishment.
The list goes on - but since I doubt you'll read this anyway I'm not going to waste my time with anything more.
Please write to the hardware manufacturers. Tell them you want Linux support and drivers.
Normally I would because I think it helps to show the hardware manufacturers that someone wants Linux support. If enough of us do it, then hopefully they will give in. But my webcam was a unique situation. It is a 3Com HomeConnect webcam (not the crappy lite version). The cam is actually manufactured by ViCAM who - based on what I've read on their web site - are very Linux savvy people. Unfortunately ViCAM sold the rights to the cam to 3Com so according to the guy who responded to the e-mail I sent, they no longer have the right to release drivers for the product. And it gets worse. 3Com dropped support for the cam. They no longer make it. It *really* sucks that this happened because this cam is far and above the absolute BEST webcam I have ever used. And I have tried several. Intel, Logitech, even the ultra expensive Axis netcam (which has Linux firmware by the way). None of the other cams I've tried, including my $1,000+ Sony DV cam can compete with the image quality I get from my 3Com cam in normal lighting. My Sony DV cam does great as long as I can flood the room with an unrealistic amount of light. But the 3Com cam works perfectly with typical poor indoor lighting.
P.s. Are you SURE you're a long
time Linux user? You don't seem to fit
the profile of a long time Linux user:
Yes - I'm very sure. And I think what you mean is that I don't fit the profile of a Linux Zealot. And you're right. And I'm glad I don't. You guys are the bane of the Linux community.
My observation with the linux progress is that the unsupported hardware is typically the latest and greatest hardware.
:)
/.)
That's probably true a lot of the time, or even most of the time. But in the case of my webcam, for example, there was no working driver for it for years after it came out. And now that there is a working driver for it, as I said in my original post, it's very poorly done. My HP OfficeJet G85 is another example of a spotty/lousily supported piece of hardware. And I recently bought a Matrox Parhelia tripple head video card. At this point I haven't even bothered looking to see if there's a Linux driver for it. I'm almost afraid of what I might run into.
These are real world Desktop devices. I don't suspect too many people are going to be willing to have 2nd rate support for some piece of hardware they bought.
(I hope I don't sound confrontational like so many others on
You better have said: I do not use Linux because
i do not get it. I do not understand its power and capabilities.
Being a (relatively) long time Linux user, I can tell you this comment is just Zealotism (Linux elitisism). And that type of attitude is what drives people away from Linux in the first place. It's really getting old and if you would like to see Linux improve, you need to come down off your high horse and realize that not everyone is as interested in the details of the Operating System as you are. A lot of people just want the O/S to work. And the funny thing is, so do all the Linux Zealots. Every time something new and grand happens with the Linux kernel, all the Zealots come flying out of the woodwork to praise how mighty and wonderful Linux is. Funny how that when Windows or Mac OS brought in that same feature 4 or 5 years ago that all those same people laughed about how dumb and needless it was. The hypocracy with you Linux Zealots is truly pathetic.
I'm still using Win2K but I have left OE and IE behind, at least... feels good.
:(
I'm in that same boat. I use XP Pro for the O/S but try to use Open Source alternatives wherever else I can. Open Office and Mozilla Firebird the most noteworthy I guess.
Why not just use RedHat or something? Well, it's not like I haven't tried. I have been tinkering with running Linux on the Desktop since about 1997 or 1998. It has definietly come along way, but like you read in so many articles on this top, it's just "not there yet."
I do have RH9 installed on another machine but it always comes back to the same thing. Some program I need/want doesn't exist for Linux or some hardware that I use won't work, or at best works very poorly.
Seriously, I use Windows and OOo, and there isn't anything I can't do with them as far as I know.
Same here. I actually find Open Office more usable than MS Office. Open a document in MS Word, leave it open and untouched for 15 minutes, then try to close it out. It warns you that your changes have not been saved? Uhh... ok? I find that very annoying. It makes me feel like Word corrupted my document just by being open.
That fact aside, what do *most people* really need with MS Office that they can't get from some free alternative? Granted *most people* probably just pirated their copy of MS Office anyway so they don't care about the $300-$500 pricetag, but with software gaining online intelligence, those days are going to come to an end soon enough. So many programs check for automatic updates when you start them now. Now that people are good and use to that idea, the next phase is to have said software application verify that it was paid for.
Did you patch your system today? (TM)
haha... I don't get in on the MS bashing thing but that's pretty funny.
Ever wonder how much a cloud weighs?
Not until I read this headline. Now I must know.
Indepdence Day
Independence
Yes, I made a typo. Save the comments.
I store my e-mail and digital camera photos by date. For me, the same system works well for both. (Granted it's not ideal.)
Example:
[+]1999
[+]2000
[+]2001
[-]2002
[-]January
[ ] New Years Day PICS
[ ] Birthday Party
[-]February
[ ] Valentines Day
[+]March
[+]April
[+]May
[+]June
[-]July
[ ] Indepdence Day
[+]August
[+]September
[+]October
[+]November
[-]December
[ ] Christmas
[+]2003
im 23 and i can remember phone rentals /shrug
I actually e-mailed my mom and asked her because I was so curious. The "green" phones that we had - which were the earliest ones I could remember - were actually leased from the phone company. I was never aware of it. Learn something new all the time, eh?
Relative to pretty much anything that matters, yep.
Considering the time scale, I wouldn't say 30 years was recent when dealing with phones which have only existed for little more than a hundred years. (Invented in 1876 but not popularized until years later.) 30 years is almost a quarter of that time. That's not exactly recent. *Relative* to my own life, I don't consider the things that happened when I was 20 (a quarter of my life past - I'm 27 now), "recent" events in my life.
No, but up until relatively recently you couldn't get your own phone at all
Uhh... how recent are you talking? I'm 27 years old and I as far back as I can remember (at least 20 years), my parents had their own store bought phone.
Then I have this used copy of Windows ME
What were you doing using Windows ME? You must be a Lindows user.
See, the thing is, most of the Linux community is this way. Unfortunately, there is a verbal minority that keeps getting the limelight and the media jumps on that. It's the whole "squeaky wheel gets the grease" syndrome.
You're right. I have just been inundated by the squeaky wheels to the point that I couldn't take it any more. Many (not all) in the Linux crowd want to be more l33t than thou. Their life isn't complete if they aren't running their own home brew distro, or a Linux from scratch install.
Those types of guys are like this.
First, the Linux Zealot (we'll call him LZ for short) convinces his friend to dump that crappy "Money$haft Winblows" Operating System and install Linux. Two days later LZ is riding his friend's behind as to why he is using that "sell out" RedCrap distro. So LZ convinces his friend to install Debian or Slackware. A month later the friend finally gets Debian installed (it takes him a month because every time he asks LZ for help, LZ just replys "RTFM!"). LZ shows up again after his friend calls him over to show him he just finished setting up his Debian install all by himself. The LZ starts hounding his friend about the pussified Gnome or KDE Desktop he's running. "That's for cowards. We elitists use BlackBox!", the LZ says. So LZ's humilated friend installs BlackBox (or whatever). A few days later LZ comes back over and sees his friend running an XChat IRC client. LZ totally loses it. "What are you doing???? A GUI IRC client??? Have you lost your mind????" In his anger, the LZ fdisks his friend's machine and storms out.
A month later the friend gets so sick of LZ's condescending attitude that he drops his PC in a river and goes out and buys a Mac. Then (rightfully so) starts posting messages on Slashdot about how much he lates Linux Zealots.