...and never really had any problems with them. One has 40 MB RAM and is running Mac OS 8.6, the other has 24 and is running 7.6.1. The 5300 only has a 100 MHz PowerPC 603e and a 33.3 MHz bus, and is no speed demon, but runs MS Office 98 well, plays my MP3s, and even handles CodeWarrior fine in a pinch. I've heard horror stores about the power connector breaking off or the plastics falling apart... I don't baby my laptops, but I do use common sense, never really had any problems.
I'll probably strip one down and trade it in on a PB G3/400, can't pass up that great deal. Plus I'll finally be able to run Final Cut Pro on the road.
As far as maintenance and actual use, it would really be hard to find something similar than an Origin 3000. Even at 512 processors with a cross-section bandwidth of over 700 GB/sec, it's still JUST ONE MACHINE. And it runs IRIX. BRU, INST, TAR, etc... it's a monster of a beast that's as easy to maintain as a workstation.
Those are the actual bandwidth rates. The Origin/Onyx 3000 series is not SMP nor does it have a "Bus". It's a hypercube NUMA setup with a thick mesh of interconnects. This -is- the "Cray" of today. Read up on ccNUMA and hypercube architecture on SGI's website, they have several good technical documents available.
why folks complain so much about the mouse. It's not that bad. When I'm forced to use one, I generally rest my palm on the mousepad and move the mouse with my fingers, I don't grab the whole thing in my hand with a white-knuckle grip and move my entire arm around (which I what I belive most folks think it's like). I actually find it a bit more ergonomic than some of cheap ergonomic-wanna-be mice. Besides, just go out and buy any USB mouse, I know dozens of folks (myself included) that have replaced their stock PC mice with the new Microsoft Intellimouse. What's the big deal? And if there aren't custom MacOS drivers for your new third-party mouse, use USB Overdive, it's better anyway.
Now the keyboard... that's a whole new story, I personally can't stand it. It's too small and has that "mush" feeling (much like OEM "QuietKey" keyboards on cheap PC bundles). Never understood why Apple's desktop keyboards are now worse than their PowerBook keyboards!! I'm currently using a Sun Microsystems Type 6 USB keyboard (from a SunRay1 terminal spare) on my G3. A buddy of mine uses the $49 iKey full-size keyboard. A bit more expensive than a $5 junk PS/2 keyboard, but certainly built and feels better.
Bottom line, most folks replace the keyboards and mice on their PCs anyway.
Many Apple Power Macintosh computers and clones use a processor card. The first of which was the Power Mac 9500 (mid 1995). Apple offered a dual-processor card for awhile and Daystar Digital even had a 9500 clone with a quad processor card (a great BeOS demo box back in the day). Beige and Blue-And-White Power Mac G3s use a -tiny- processor card (containing the PowerPC 750 "G3" processor, L2 cache, and a small fan-less heatsink) that connects to the mother board via a ZIF connector. Early Power Mac G4s uses this as well, though the current models (those with AGP) use a funky new type of connector.
An ARM processor may indeed use 1/2 the power of a PowerPC processor... but PPC still takes up about 1/4 to 1/3 of what a Pentium III, PIII Xeon, or Athlon guzzles. PPC has a -much- lower transistor count and has a cleaner design (Arstechnica had some good explanations of this a few months ago). Perhaps you're confusing Alpha with PowerPC?
It does not use the firmware of the 320 with the unified memory architecture and PROM if that's what you mean. It uses a high end OEM PC mother board with AGP 4x support and a BIOS, SGI has done some work with the manufacturer improving the quality & reliability of the mobo.
Interesting, probably will help profits and keep SGI focused on the graphics. I do hope they bring back the goodies of the 320 for future systems, very impressive systems.
First of all, a good PC costs more than you'd think, especially after buying a model with enough CPU, adding a good graphics card, a NIC, a real drive, more RAM... get my point? On the other hand, for the price SGI is asking for these new systems, I sure hope they perform... in many different ways.
As a user of SGI's traditional MIPS processor- and IRIX OS-based Unix workstations, this latest crop of Visual Workstations has me thinking, "hmmmm". As far as pure specs, even the low end model blows my MIPS R10000-based SGI Indigo2 Maximum Impact right out of the water.It's the software, however, that has me a bit concerned. IRIX may look a bit old fashioned and might not have a list of specs as long as that of a typical modern linux distribution, but it is very well designed, supports its hardware quite nicely, and does the job. I have been spoiled with the Insight online manual viewer, swmgr and inst package managers, and other IRIX tools. I work well and am quite efficient with my SGI. The MIPSPro compilers, ProDev Workshop, Inventor, and Performer weren't cheap but they work well and are very well supported with patches and IRIX 6.5.X overlay updates. I have heard the occasional horror story, but problems are rare. SGI is going to have to do a lot of work bringing their linux distribution on par with their current version of IRIX. APIs such as Performer and Inventor will have to be synced up with their IRIX counterparts if they hope to make cross platform development a reality.
I'm happy to see SGI embrace linux, open source, and lower cost hardware, however I hope the transition is smooth and the high-end market still kept on the radar. There are dozens of low-cost 3D packages for PCs and Macs. No longer does one need an SGI to even consider 3D. It's the sheer scalability of their systems that gives SGI their edge. An application can be developed and tested on a (relatively) low-end O2 or the mid-range Octane before being deployed and presented on the high end Onyx2. All without recompiling. The shared architecture and OS makes SGI's lineup like no other. Currently, it appears SGI's top linux system can only be expanded to 2 processors, 2 GB of RAM, and perhaps a future graphics card. Whereas the current Onyx2 supports up to 128 processors, 256 GB RAM, 16 graphics pipes with 4 GB texture RAM total (with InfiniteReality 3 graphics). Not to mention the sheer memory and inter-processor bandwidth as well as the strong, proven hardware support in the OS. All running on the same version of IRIX as that little O2.
There will always be a low end and a high end. There will always be new and old systems about. I'm happy to see SGI moving ahead with new models, faster processors, and updated graphics for their existing machines. From what I understand, the Octane is due for an update soon and the Onyx2 yet again early next year. SGI's future looks bright, I just hope they make the right marketing and public relations decisions. Going after educational and other growing, expanding markets would be a good move, especially if software discounts are offered in certain situations. I welcome SGI to the world of linux, but caution that they have a lot of work to do on both their software and hardware if they are to provide a full solution or even one that will nicely coexist.
C'mon SGI, you can do it. (And please dump that silly new logo on your high-end machines).
As far as I know, the entry-level O2 is a good deal more expensive than $6000. The old entry R5K system was $5902 for awhile, though I belive the RM5200 system is a few thousand more for the base configuration. Maybe someone can correct me?
Compare the prices, and at least they're shipping
on
SGI's New Linux Boxes
·
· Score: 1
The cheapest SGI to date was the R5000pc-based O2 from about a year ago. With 64 MB of RAM it listed for $5902 with 17" monitor.
Better question about these new workstations is the leadtime to delivery. It's not uncommon for an "available now" system to take two weeks to get from SGI's warehouses to FedEx.
I was never too wild about the cases of the Visual Workstations, but then again, they are more PC-like. I personally love the Octane... nice size, great cooling, awesome expansion, and two disk trays that couldn't be easier to use. Plus it looks quite impressive.
It's a darn shame they've gotten rid of the "cube" logo on those systems and have replaced it with "silicon graphics octane" spelled out in an ugly font.
...SGI push and promote these linux systems to universities and design/simulation houses with limited budgets. "Enter the world of real computing at a reduced cost!" Provided they sync up the linux and IRIX versions of Performer and other multimedia APIs, it shouldn't be too hard to do cross platform work. The question that keeps going around in my head right now is "upgrade to a high-end O2, maybe a used octane... or take the plunge and go to SGI linux?". I would really like to be able to easily scale up, be able to run my software on the big iron Onyx2 in our HPCC center.
Does SGI have any plans to have a uniform set of desktop and media tools (4dwm, Indigo Magic, toolchest, fm, media convert, etc) between their linux and IRIX distributions in the future? What sorts of cross-platform tools and documentation have they been hinting about? I've been spoiled with IRIX 6.5.X and its well made documenation and simple, yet professional appearance. I hope Insight and other IRIX apps make their way to SGI linux, perhaps to be supported and extended on both ends. Slightly-modified KDE or GNOME won't impress me.
It's nice to see SGI going ahead with linux solutions, especially if the performance turns out to be what they claim. However, I would like to see some more scalable linux-based systems. I currently develop software on SGI O2s and Octanes. If needed, I could run my exact same software on a 128-processor Onyx2 with 16 Infinite Reality 3 pipes, all without recompiling. Looks like their current best linux system only has two processors and one graphics subsystem. Hopefully that will change with time as SGI's greatest asset right now is actual, true scalability.
On a side note, is it just me or are their Intel-based systems shipping in rather ugly cases? I've always loved the Indigo, Indigo2, Indy, O2, Octane, and Onyx2/Origin2000 cases... but these new Visual Workstations don't look like anything special. I also like the old "granite" monitors and accessories, never cared much for these new black ones. Ni Modo.
With Mac OS X and more and faster Power Mac G4s in the wings, I really hope ATI looks forward when developing Mac drivers. The Rage II, RagePro, and Rage128 drivers for the MacOS in the past have left a bad taste in my mouth and at this point I wouldn't be too heartbroken if they were to develop their next set of drivers for G4/Altivec and Mac OS X only. Perhaps they outta consult with some Linux and NEXTSTEP/OpenStep/MacOS X experts for help with their non-Windows drivers. Omni has done miracles with NEXTSTEP and OpenGL in the past for Carmack and id, perhaps someone outta give them a call.
Rant, Rant, Rant
reminds me of ATi's MacOS drivers
on
ATI Radeon 256
·
· Score: 2
Purchase new Power Mac with bundled ATi card.
Moan and groan about OpenGL performance and compliance.
Dig up driver updates from Apple and ATi, install.
Note performance boosts in one area, slow downs elsewhere, few bugs, few bug fixes.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
Christmas '98, G3s, et al
on
ATI Radeon 256
·
· Score: 2
I belive the Rage128 was announced around Dec98/Jan99, as Apple announced and began shipping the blue & white G3 in Jan '99 with a bundled Rage 128. Performance and drivers were another story. In typical ATI fashion, it took several revisions of drivers downloaded from ATI and Apple before performance and OpenGL compliance were up to speed. The very first Rage 128s were also clocked pretty slow, but that's a different issue.
I wonder if ATI's software engineering team is up to par with their hardware people yet. The RagePro and Rage128 were decent setups in their day but hampered for months by substandard drivers. The Radeon looks great, but it's only going to be as good as its drivers and OpenGL & Direct3D implementations.
When I first saw this yesterday on ArsTechnica I thought, "gee, cheaper better faster--*yawn*". Looks nifty and I suppose there are 6.022x10^23 things a fella could do with one. And I'll bet it'll be the talk around the techhie lunch table in 4th period lunch tomorrow. As for me, I think I'll just spend my money on patching up my tent, getting a new pair of hiking boots, and maybe replace the "small" 8GB drive in my PowerBook with something larger. Kinda nice to unhook at times.
Aside from trying to get money out of GIF, what do they do all day? The days of the Remington-Rand/Sperry-Rand UNIVAC are long gone, and their PCs are just HPs. Do they even deal with UNIX anymore? I looked around www.unisys.com and all I can figure is they sell piles of hype to big business. Am I close?
For DV, you're going to need A LOT of FAST disk space, and keep in mind that DV *is* 7**x4** resolution (forget the exact numbers) and you HAVE to capture at that res. at the DV frame rate.
720x480@~30FPS, with compression that's 3.5 MB/sec or as much as 16-18 GB per hour (including overhead). IDE ATA/33 can handle this, but you may want the sheer speed of the fastest drive and best seek times come time to edit and add special effects.
The Aurora Igniter is an -amazing- capture card, very higly regarded and certified to work with Final Cut Pro. Nice component option for those with the highest quality sources.
Apple, Matrox, and Pinnacle are going to make a big annoucement today at the National Broadcasters Convention today in Las Vegas, so expect something pretty big from that group as well.
Slashdot Mirror
...and never really had any problems with them. One has 40 MB RAM and is running Mac OS 8.6, the other has 24 and is running 7.6.1. The 5300 only has a 100 MHz PowerPC 603e and a 33.3 MHz bus, and is no speed demon, but runs MS Office 98 well, plays my MP3s, and even handles CodeWarrior fine in a pinch. I've heard horror stores about the power connector breaking off or the plastics falling apart... I don't baby my laptops, but I do use common sense, never really had any problems.
I'll probably strip one down and trade it in on a PB G3/400, can't pass up that great deal. Plus I'll finally be able to run Final Cut Pro on the road.
716 GB/sec is correct.
11.2 GB/sec is the cross-section bandwidth of an Origin 3200 w/ 8 CPUs.
44.8 GB/sec... Origin 3400 w/ 32 CPUs.
716 GB/sec... Origin 3800 w/ 512 CPUs.
11.2 / 8 = 1.4
716 / 512 = 1.4
It's also on several SGI datasheets and whitepapers.
Point blank, this machine can scale like crazy without kinking off the data.
In SPECfp2000, an Origin 2000 with one CPU -enabled- beats a 1 GHz Pentium III.
http://www.spec.org
http://reality.sgi.com/sgiquake
Sure!
http://reality.sgi.com/sgiquake
As far as maintenance and actual use, it would really be hard to find something similar than an Origin 3000. Even at 512 processors with a cross-section bandwidth of over 700 GB/sec, it's still JUST ONE MACHINE. And it runs IRIX. BRU, INST, TAR, etc... it's a monster of a beast that's as easy to maintain as a workstation.
Those are the actual bandwidth rates. The Origin/Onyx 3000 series is not SMP nor does it have a "Bus". It's a hypercube NUMA setup with a thick mesh of interconnects. This -is- the "Cray" of today. Read up on ccNUMA and hypercube architecture on SGI's website, they have several good technical documents available.
why folks complain so much about the mouse. It's not that bad. When I'm forced to use one, I generally rest my palm on the mousepad and move the mouse with my fingers, I don't grab the whole thing in my hand with a white-knuckle grip and move my entire arm around (which I what I belive most folks think it's like). I actually find it a bit more ergonomic than some of cheap ergonomic-wanna-be mice. Besides, just go out and buy any USB mouse, I know dozens of folks (myself included) that have replaced their stock PC mice with the new Microsoft Intellimouse. What's the big deal? And if there aren't custom MacOS drivers for your new third-party mouse, use USB Overdive, it's better anyway.
Now the keyboard... that's a whole new story, I personally can't stand it. It's too small and has that "mush" feeling (much like OEM "QuietKey" keyboards on cheap PC bundles). Never understood why Apple's desktop keyboards are now worse than their PowerBook keyboards!! I'm currently using a Sun Microsystems Type 6 USB keyboard (from a SunRay1 terminal spare) on my G3. A buddy of mine uses the $49 iKey full-size keyboard. A bit more expensive than a $5 junk PS/2 keyboard, but certainly built and feels better.
Bottom line, most folks replace the keyboards and mice on their PCs anyway.
Many Apple Power Macintosh computers and clones use a processor card. The first of which was the Power Mac 9500 (mid 1995). Apple offered a dual-processor card for awhile and Daystar Digital even had a 9500 clone with a quad processor card (a great BeOS demo box back in the day). Beige and Blue-And-White Power Mac G3s use a -tiny- processor card (containing the PowerPC 750 "G3" processor, L2 cache, and a small fan-less heatsink) that connects to the mother board via a ZIF connector. Early Power Mac G4s uses this as well, though the current models (those with AGP) use a funky new type of connector.
An ARM processor may indeed use 1/2 the power of a PowerPC processor... but PPC still takes up about 1/4 to 1/3 of what a Pentium III, PIII Xeon, or Athlon guzzles. PPC has a -much- lower transistor count and has a cleaner design (Arstechnica had some good explanations of this a few months ago). Perhaps you're confusing Alpha with PowerPC?
It does not use the firmware of the 320 with the unified memory architecture and PROM if that's what you mean. It uses a high end OEM PC mother board with AGP 4x support and a BIOS, SGI has done some work with the manufacturer improving the quality & reliability of the mobo.
Interesting, probably will help profits and keep SGI focused on the graphics. I do hope they bring back the goodies of the 320 for future systems, very impressive systems.
First of all, a good PC costs more than you'd think, especially after buying a model with enough CPU, adding a good graphics card, a NIC, a real drive, more RAM... get my point? On the other hand, for the price SGI is asking for these new systems, I sure hope they perform... in many different ways.
As a user of SGI's traditional MIPS processor- and IRIX OS-based Unix workstations, this latest crop of Visual Workstations has me thinking, "hmmmm". As far as pure specs, even the low end model blows my MIPS R10000-based SGI Indigo2 Maximum Impact right out of the water.It's the software, however, that has me a bit concerned. IRIX may look a bit old fashioned and might not have a list of specs as long as that of a typical modern linux distribution, but it is very well designed, supports its hardware quite nicely, and does the job. I have been spoiled with the Insight online manual viewer, swmgr and inst package managers, and other IRIX tools. I work well and am quite efficient with my SGI. The MIPSPro compilers, ProDev Workshop, Inventor, and Performer weren't cheap but they work well and are very well supported with patches and IRIX 6.5.X overlay updates. I have heard the occasional horror story, but problems are rare. SGI is going to have to do a lot of work bringing their linux distribution on par with their current version of IRIX. APIs such as Performer and Inventor will have to be synced up with their IRIX counterparts if they hope to make cross platform development a reality.
I'm happy to see SGI embrace linux, open source, and lower cost hardware, however I hope the transition is smooth and the high-end market still kept on the radar. There are dozens of low-cost 3D packages for PCs and Macs. No longer does one need an SGI to even consider 3D. It's the sheer scalability of their systems that gives SGI their edge. An application can be developed and tested on a (relatively) low-end O2 or the mid-range Octane before being deployed and presented on the high end Onyx2. All without recompiling. The shared architecture and OS makes SGI's lineup like no other. Currently, it appears SGI's top linux system can only be expanded to 2 processors, 2 GB of RAM, and perhaps a future graphics card. Whereas the current Onyx2 supports up to 128 processors, 256 GB RAM, 16 graphics pipes with 4 GB texture RAM total (with InfiniteReality 3 graphics). Not to mention the sheer memory and inter-processor bandwidth as well as the strong, proven hardware support in the OS. All running on the same version of IRIX as that little O2.
There will always be a low end and a high end. There will always be new and old systems about. I'm happy to see SGI moving ahead with new models, faster processors, and updated graphics for their existing machines. From what I understand, the Octane is due for an update soon and the Onyx2 yet again early next year. SGI's future looks bright, I just hope they make the right marketing and public relations decisions. Going after educational and other growing, expanding markets would be a good move, especially if software discounts are offered in certain situations. I welcome SGI to the world of linux, but caution that they have a lot of work to do on both their software and hardware if they are to provide a full solution or even one that will nicely coexist.
C'mon SGI, you can do it. (And please dump that silly new logo on your high-end machines).
canderso@ttacs.ttu.edu
As far as I know, the entry-level O2 is a good deal more expensive than $6000. The old entry R5K system was $5902 for awhile, though I belive the RM5200 system is a few thousand more for the base configuration. Maybe someone can correct me?
The cheapest SGI to date was the R5000pc-based O2 from about a year ago. With 64 MB of RAM it listed for $5902 with 17" monitor.
Better question about these new workstations is the leadtime to delivery. It's not uncommon for an "available now" system to take two weeks to get from SGI's warehouses to FedEx.
I was never too wild about the cases of the Visual Workstations, but then again, they are more PC-like. I personally love the Octane... nice size, great cooling, awesome expansion, and two disk trays that couldn't be easier to use. Plus it looks quite impressive.
It's a darn shame they've gotten rid of the "cube" logo on those systems and have replaced it with "silicon graphics octane" spelled out in an ugly font.
...SGI push and promote these linux systems to universities and design/simulation houses with limited budgets. "Enter the world of real computing at a reduced cost!" Provided they sync up the linux and IRIX versions of Performer and other multimedia APIs, it shouldn't be too hard to do cross platform work. The question that keeps going around in my head right now is "upgrade to a high-end O2, maybe a used octane... or take the plunge and go to SGI linux?". I would really like to be able to easily scale up, be able to run my software on the big iron Onyx2 in our HPCC center.
Does SGI have any plans to have a uniform set of desktop and media tools (4dwm, Indigo Magic, toolchest, fm, media convert, etc) between their linux and IRIX distributions in the future? What sorts of cross-platform tools and documentation have they been hinting about? I've been spoiled with IRIX 6.5.X and its well made documenation and simple, yet professional appearance. I hope Insight and other IRIX apps make their way to SGI linux, perhaps to be supported and extended on both ends. Slightly-modified KDE or GNOME won't impress me.
Welcome to a brave new world, SGI. Make us proud.
canderso@ttacs.ttu.edu
It's nice to see SGI going ahead with linux solutions, especially if the performance turns out to be what they claim. However, I would like to see some more scalable linux-based systems. I currently develop software on SGI O2s and Octanes. If needed, I could run my exact same software on a 128-processor Onyx2 with 16 Infinite Reality 3 pipes, all without recompiling. Looks like their current best linux system only has two processors and one graphics subsystem. Hopefully that will change with time as SGI's greatest asset right now is actual, true scalability.
On a side note, is it just me or are their Intel-based systems shipping in rather ugly cases? I've always loved the Indigo, Indigo2, Indy, O2, Octane, and Onyx2/Origin2000 cases... but these new Visual Workstations don't look like anything special. I also like the old "granite" monitors and accessories, never cared much for these new black ones. Ni Modo.
With Mac OS X and more and faster Power Mac G4s in the wings, I really hope ATI looks forward when developing Mac drivers. The Rage II, RagePro, and Rage128 drivers for the MacOS in the past have left a bad taste in my mouth and at this point I wouldn't be too heartbroken if they were to develop their next set of drivers for G4/Altivec and Mac OS X only. Perhaps they outta consult with some Linux and NEXTSTEP/OpenStep/MacOS X experts for help with their non-Windows drivers. Omni has done miracles with NEXTSTEP and OpenGL in the past for Carmack and id, perhaps someone outta give them a call.
Rant, Rant, Rant
Purchase new Power Mac with bundled ATi card.
Moan and groan about OpenGL performance and compliance.
Dig up driver updates from Apple and ATi, install.
Note performance boosts in one area, slow downs elsewhere, few bugs, few bug fixes.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
I belive the Rage128 was announced around Dec98/Jan99, as Apple announced and began shipping the blue & white G3 in Jan '99 with a bundled Rage 128. Performance and drivers were another story. In typical ATI fashion, it took several revisions of drivers downloaded from ATI and Apple before performance and OpenGL compliance were up to speed. The very first Rage 128s were also clocked pretty slow, but that's a different issue.
I wonder if ATI's software engineering team is up to par with their hardware people yet. The RagePro and Rage128 were decent setups in their day but hampered for months by substandard drivers. The Radeon looks great, but it's only going to be as good as its drivers and OpenGL & Direct3D implementations.
When I first saw this yesterday on ArsTechnica I thought, "gee, cheaper better faster--*yawn*". Looks nifty and I suppose there are 6.022x10^23 things a fella could do with one. And I'll bet it'll be the talk around the techhie lunch table in 4th period lunch tomorrow. As for me, I think I'll just spend my money on patching up my tent, getting a new pair of hiking boots, and maybe replace the "small" 8GB drive in my PowerBook with something larger. Kinda nice to unhook at times.
Aside from trying to get money out of GIF, what do they do all day? The days of the Remington-Rand/Sperry-Rand UNIVAC are long gone, and their PCs are just HPs. Do they even deal with UNIX anymore? I looked around www.unisys.com and all I can figure is they sell piles of hype to big business. Am I close?
For DV, you're going to need A LOT of FAST disk space, and keep in mind that DV *is* 7**x4** resolution (forget the exact numbers) and you HAVE to capture at that res. at the DV frame rate.
720x480@~30FPS, with compression that's 3.5 MB/sec or as much as 16-18 GB per hour (including overhead). IDE ATA/33 can handle this, but you may want the sheer speed of the fastest drive and best seek times come time to edit and add special effects.
Along the Mac OS front:
The Aurora Igniter is an -amazing- capture card, very higly regarded and certified to work with Final Cut Pro. Nice component option for those with the highest quality sources.
Apple, Matrox, and Pinnacle are going to make a big annoucement today at the National Broadcasters Convention today in Las Vegas, so expect something pretty big from that group as well.