Don't think that's a troll. We were actually discussing this very thing in a thread later on. I suggested that since we are not used to controlling objects with our brains that it's necessary to "prime the cognitive pump" by using hand gestures. I also wonder if it would be possible to train to do this independently. If so, it might be possible to train someone that's in a vegetative state, for example.
I hope you're not right about that. I know within my field there is always a huge push to find the next greatest thing for UI interaction. So we now have touch screens, tabletops, virtual displays, etc. - there were some pretty amazing advancements @ CHI this year in that area. It seems like the trend is definitely going towards "embedded" interactions, certainly. I'm not sure how we can continue in that direction without embracing something along these lines. So, get ready to put on your VR contact lenses and charge up that embedded microprocessor in your cortex.
That's spot on. Something I keep coming back to but haven't really been able to formulate is the use of a device like this for patients who are "comatose". There was recently an article online (ref?) about someone who had come out of a supposed coma after several decades. He stated that he was frustrated to the point of despair because he was unable to communicate while "trapped" in his body (IIRC - there was some controversy on that). Could we use this to technology to communicate with such people? I imagine the EEGs would have to differentiate between an actual coma and these cases. But if they could be identified, perhaps someone incapable of physically moving at all could be taught to use this technology to communicate to the outside world.
Thanks Metamechanical - I skipped the last couple of paragraphs of the interview. As a UI designer, I still think folks are getting a little tunnel visioned on this. To me, it's almost like saying the mouse can only be used for menu opening or something. I think there are a lot of possibilities here that we will soon discover.
I don't think you were paying very close attention to the video, really. You can see that he is keeping his head pretty still during some of the moves. I believe the gyroscope is just providing locational information to the system.
I'm a bit surprised (or maybe not) that the focus of the discussions has been on the gaming aspect of the device. I know it's not perfect, there are a lot of bugs to work out, and it's been around for a while, but I can see tremendous application and potential for this technology. This could provide quadriplegics with access to software, allow another interaction pathway for those with their hands occupied on critical tasks (pilots, surgeons, police).
I wonder how much the hand gestures were required to move the objects? I'm sure it's a way to "cognitively prime the pump" at this point, but could it be done without the gestures? Or could someone learn to do it without them?
It was also interesting to cognitive scientists that he could acquire spatial memories as well. For example, he had obtained spatial knowledge about the new house he had moved to after the operation, and good memory of the spatial layout of the house. This brought us a long way in our understanding of the mechanisms behind the different types of memory, since we had pretty precise knowledge of what was removed.
The Wiki article has a pretty good paragraph on this. The main worry is introducing brackish water into the environment. FT(W)A: "Marine and river environments have obvious differences in water quality, namely salinity. Each species of aquatic plant and animal is adapted to survive in either marine, brackish, or freshwater environments. There are species that can tolerate both, but these species usually thrive best in a specific water environment."
An interesting aspect mentioned in TFA is the fact that you need two water sources, i.e., a river of fresh water that empties into a salt sea. So it would seem that they are just doing preemptively what nature would have done anyway. It actually seems like a pretty non-destructive method to me.
ORLY?? So tell me what technology they're going to use out of all EEG reading options out there?
I'm certainly not discounting the research. I think the real contribution is that they found an interesting real world application for these patterns. But really, it's not as groundbreaking as the article lets on. I was studying the patterns of evoked potentials way back in '89, my friend.
Just one minor nitnoid: the title of this article should be "Tagging Images With Your Brain", not Mind. Electrical impulses are used - using the word mind implies that some conscious effort is involved. This is strictly identifying patterns using machine algorithms independent of the user's thought process.
Actually, the variance isn't the problem. That comes out statistically in the wash - you can see that with a large enough N, patterns emerge across the different stimuli types, which allows them to do the tagging. The real problem is interpreting the complex interactions between the different regions of the brain. However, that doesn't really matter for an experiment like this, as the patterns don't actually need to be interpreted, just recognized by the algorithm. It's a similar concept to the way the MMPI psychological test was developed, in some ways.
It's funny, the MS team doesn't seem to even recognize this. FTA: "and scientists’ currently weak ability to interpret what brain scans mean.
This is typical of MS -thinking that something like this would be easy for the average user. FTA: "However, the mind reading approach has the advantage that it does not require any work at all from the user."
So, in order to use this sytem, we should all strap on EEG caps while we're surfing the web. Sounds real practical to me - I used to work in an EEG lab, and I can tell you that those caps are pretty uncomfortable to wear. After they put them on, you stick these little needles into the leads and squirt conductive goop on your scalp. It takes a few cycles to rinse that stuff out too.
Way to go MS for making productivity so much easier.
Slashdot Mirror
Don't think that's a troll. We were actually discussing this very thing in a thread later on. I suggested that since we are not used to controlling objects with our brains that it's necessary to "prime the cognitive pump" by using hand gestures. I also wonder if it would be possible to train to do this independently. If so, it might be possible to train someone that's in a vegetative state, for example.
I hope you're not right about that. I know within my field there is always a huge push to find the next greatest thing for UI interaction. So we now have touch screens, tabletops, virtual displays, etc. - there were some pretty amazing advancements @ CHI this year in that area. It seems like the trend is definitely going towards "embedded" interactions, certainly. I'm not sure how we can continue in that direction without embracing something along these lines. So, get ready to put on your VR contact lenses and charge up that embedded microprocessor in your cortex.
That's spot on. Something I keep coming back to but haven't really been able to formulate is the use of a device like this for patients who are "comatose". There was recently an article online (ref?) about someone who had come out of a supposed coma after several decades. He stated that he was frustrated to the point of despair because he was unable to communicate while "trapped" in his body (IIRC - there was some controversy on that). Could we use this to technology to communicate with such people? I imagine the EEGs would have to differentiate between an actual coma and these cases. But if they could be identified, perhaps someone incapable of physically moving at all could be taught to use this technology to communicate to the outside world.
Thanks Metamechanical - I skipped the last couple of paragraphs of the interview. As a UI designer, I still think folks are getting a little tunnel visioned on this. To me, it's almost like saying the mouse can only be used for menu opening or something. I think there are a lot of possibilities here that we will soon discover.
I don't think you were paying very close attention to the video, really. You can see that he is keeping his head pretty still during some of the moves. I believe the gyroscope is just providing locational information to the system.
I'm a bit surprised (or maybe not) that the focus of the discussions has been on the gaming aspect of the device. I know it's not perfect, there are a lot of bugs to work out, and it's been around for a while, but I can see tremendous application and potential for this technology. This could provide quadriplegics with access to software, allow another interaction pathway for those with their hands occupied on critical tasks (pilots, surgeons, police).
I wonder how much the hand gestures were required to move the objects? I'm sure it's a way to "cognitively prime the pump" at this point, but could it be done without the gestures? Or could someone learn to do it without them?
It was also interesting to cognitive scientists that he could acquire spatial memories as well. For example, he had obtained spatial knowledge about the new house he had moved to after the operation, and good memory of the spatial layout of the house. This brought us a long way in our understanding of the mechanisms behind the different types of memory, since we had pretty precise knowledge of what was removed.
David Koresh fucked a bunch of teenagers. That also happened to be legal, though.
Scuse me - the "legal age" in Texas at that time was 14 for marriage with consent. He was with children as young as 10 years old.
There should be an app for getting rejected apps. But then it would be rejected, and I'd have to use the app to get it. Wait...my head hurts.
For those playing along at home...
Dude, is there an app for that?
It's funny how this particular thread is attracting all the Anonymous Cowards
Jerry Springer for the interwebs
Rats - somebody beat me to it :^\
The Wiki article has a pretty good paragraph on this. The main worry is introducing brackish water into the environment. FT(W)A: "Marine and river environments have obvious differences in water quality, namely salinity. Each species of aquatic plant and animal is adapted to survive in either marine, brackish, or freshwater environments. There are species that can tolerate both, but these species usually thrive best in a specific water environment."
An interesting aspect mentioned in TFA is the fact that you need two water sources, i.e., a river of fresh water that empties into a salt sea. So it would seem that they are just doing preemptively what nature would have done anyway. It actually seems like a pretty non-destructive method to me.
You coward !
Ha ha!! That's pretty funny coming from a guy named "Anonymous Coward".
ORLY?? So tell me what technology they're going to use out of all EEG reading options out there?
I'm certainly not discounting the research. I think the real contribution is that they found an interesting real world application for these patterns. But really, it's not as groundbreaking as the article lets on. I was studying the patterns of evoked potentials way back in '89, my friend.
Just one minor nitnoid: the title of this article should be "Tagging Images With Your Brain", not Mind. Electrical impulses are used - using the word mind implies that some conscious effort is involved. This is strictly identifying patterns using machine algorithms independent of the user's thought process.
Also, what about the person that uploaded the video? They would seem to be the main culprit to me, not Google.
Actually, the variance isn't the problem. That comes out statistically in the wash - you can see that with a large enough N, patterns emerge across the different stimuli types, which allows them to do the tagging. The real problem is interpreting the complex interactions between the different regions of the brain. However, that doesn't really matter for an experiment like this, as the patterns don't actually need to be interpreted, just recognized by the algorithm. It's a similar concept to the way the MMPI psychological test was developed, in some ways.
It's funny, the MS team doesn't seem to even recognize this. FTA: "and scientists’ currently weak ability to interpret what brain scans mean.
This is typical of MS -thinking that something like this would be easy for the average user. FTA: "However, the mind reading approach has the advantage that it does not require any work at all from the user."
So, in order to use this sytem, we should all strap on EEG caps while we're surfing the web. Sounds real practical to me - I used to work in an EEG lab, and I can tell you that those caps are pretty uncomfortable to wear. After they put them on, you stick these little needles into the leads and squirt conductive goop on your scalp. It takes a few cycles to rinse that stuff out too.
Way to go MS for making productivity so much easier.
They're not gettin' their mind probes through my freakin tin foil barrier
Remind me not to get on your bad side. If I had any mod points, I'd give them to you, my friend. In fact, I'd give you all of them...really.
So, where did you emigrate to? I want to know of this utopia where all the politics are clean and free of sub-intellectual pundits and morons.
So, you're suggesting just avoiding voting? It's easy to criticize - how about you offer an alternative.