Those are just the kind of lusers that I'm on about. The ones who don't want to learn or contribute or put any effort into it. That is just what OSS does *not* need.
Because their is far more to it than the defualt install. They audit every line of code in the base install looking for bugs long before anyone is aware of them and long before there is anybody talking about sploits.
The OpenSSH in OpenBSD has been audited and has meet the core teams standards. The reason for the portable version is that they can't audit those versions deployed on other OSes.
The Apache that they deploy is really a fork. It is that much modified because it has been audited and that many fixes have been implemented that the main Apache tree won't take back.
The same goes for the default Sendmail and *every* other app in the core system. And because they are not busy fixing bugs that have known exploits they are free to find and fix bugs before they have exploits.
The kernel is audited to a degree that Linux can only dream about.
Now having said that all this comes at a cost and the goal of Linus and his team is *not* to be secure by default. Neither should it be. The goal of OpenBSD *is* to be secure by defualt. So it really does go far beyond packaging.
"and you've only confirmed my suspicions - that you're an elitist, arrogant, socially ignorant individual."
And proud of it. Here is the problem you are making the assumption that I want to live in or have anything to do with your world. I simply don't. I know you won't understand or accept this cause you really can't imagine that anybody would reject what you call normal but I do. Now I don't enter your world and tell you you are wrong and that you need to change to fit my worldview. For some reason though you and others like you think that they can/should tell us how to run our world. I just do *not* get that.
Now since you seem to have missed one of my earlier posts and seem rather fixated on typos I'll offer a quote from a core developer.
"The discussion drifted to comparing Linux adoption with OpenBSD adoption. "Linux has business mindshare," Dale said, "Linux has done a better job of selling itself to businesses." In contrast, he continued, "we don't sell ourselves to customers. We're happy if they use our code, but we don't court them. And sometimes when they dangle money in front of us we say no."
Dale continued explaining, "we like to feel like we're in control. If they are giving you money, they're in control and can tell you what to do. Most of the developers are doing this all in their spare time, and are not getting paid for it. We want to play, we don't want to have to work."
So you see the core team members *really* don't care if anyone uses the system.
No, the anger is mostly because of people who don't grok my culture and my tribe trying to tell us that we are wrong and that we should cater to them.
Sure. Cut me a check and I'll be *more* than happy to just make stuff work for you. Here's the thing you are getting high quality code for free and you have people, most of whom do this stuff for a living, willing to help you. All they ask is that you abide by a few simple rules and show that you are willing to put some effort into it.
If you were to read though you would see that this is a 180 from every other interview that he has done. He has *never* given an opinion on Linux before. This is the thing that so many folks at undeadly find odd about this.
The only thing he has said on a long thread on misc is "If the Linux people actually cared about Quality, as we do, they would not have had as many localhost kernel security holes in the last year. How many is it... 20 so far?"
Which is interesting and does indicate that some of us who thought it was out of context might be wrong. Alhtough it is odd that he would reverse himself like this. Thus much of the confusion.
Oh and a quote from one of the core team on just that subject.
The discussion drifted to comparing Linux adoption with OpenBSD adoption. "Linux has business mindshare," Dale said, "Linux has done a better job of selling itself to businesses." In contrast, he continued, "we don't sell ourselves to customers. We're happy if they use our code, but we don't court them. And sometimes when they dangle money in front of us we say no."
Dale continued explaining, "we like to feel like we're in control. If they are giving you money, they're in control and can tell you what to do. Most of the developers are doing this all in their spare time, and are not getting paid for it. We want to play, we don't want to have to work."
None. I just like the OpenBSD approach better. For me, on that front, it's a matter of going with the best of two very good choices. And a large part of that "best" is that it meets *my* needs and wants. YMMV
I do. Have domain. It's new since that one though and since I now pay for bandwidth I'm not going to point/. at it.
Read again what I said. There are Linux Users and then there are people who know and understand computing with proper OSes and understand the culture and how things are done in our worle. I admit that it is a non-standard use of the phrase which is why I went to great effort to explain it.
I *love* the *nix UI but then again I'm the type of person it was built by and for. As far as I care those who don't like it can use something else. I for one would hate to see it dumbed down to attract users.
And you have no idea of all the places I try to communicate this knowledge. The number one thing though that has made me throw my hands up in the air and walk away is that it seems as if we have crossed a tipping point where the majority of people asking questions get upset when told to rtfm and are given a pointer to the manual. I for one *always* do both and most people I see out there do also.
You want to play in our world, with our toys, and have us help you do it.
At the same time you want us to play by your rules of "civility" and do your reading for you.
No it is not required reading and neither should it be. But it should be required reading for *anyone* who is going to ask anybody giving of their time and knowledge to produce something good for them before they ask for help.
In your world we are forced to play by your rules. In our world you should play by our rules. The Linux community is more and more starting to try and play by your rules. I'm going someplace where I can play by my rules. And I am *so* glad you won't be there to muck up the water.
Haven't you figure out yet. That the OpenBSD team and a vast majority of the people who use do *not* want you. If not take this as a wake up call. I, for one, see no value in a userbase of the kind that Linux is attracting these days. So I'm *happy* to have put you off.
I know that he will be at least a recurring character. Not sure how often he'll be around. If you can, get the last Confidential where they talk about why they have Jack around. Very interesting stuff.
Rose is *brliiant*. Best. Sidekick. Ever. Mostly because she is not a sidekick.
And it looks like Jack will also be staying on which is great news. Having said that I know of a few geek girls who would *kill* to have a uncut version of the last episode, if you know what I mean.
And did you go RTFM? It's not that you must have knowledge but you *must* be willing to put in the effort to gain that knowledge.
We are talking about OpenBSD and you have just proven that you make comments without doing the basic reading to understand things. There is far more to "secure by default" than you imply.
No I *love* BSD users. But then again I am and always have been an elitist asshole. Also see my post about what a Linux user is and what I don't like about them. You are 180 degrees off the mark.
Nope. Two problems. The first one is a defination. You are defining "Linux user" as "people who use Linux". I'm not. I'm defining it as all the people who think that Linux is Windows and want it to be just like that and those who refuse to teach and/or learn the last 30+ years of *nix inherited wisdom. And as with all things in engineering this requires telling people in no uncertain terms that they are full of shit when they are full of shit. Anything else just wastes resources. I see these quickly becoming the majority and have decided that I no longer care to use the same OS as they do.
The other is the idea that we should welcome people who don't want to put in the minimum level of effort required to become good members of the community. Good defined by me and others like me. Why? Becuase simply put we know this stuff better than the great unwashed masses of lusers. It should be them that change and conform to a long proud tradition not us who should be throwing out everything we have learned over the last 30 years.
I've been reading misc for a *lot* longer than 3 days I've *never* once seen someone flamed for being a newbie. I have seen people told in no uncertain terms that they need to learn how to ask smart questions. And it sounds like you do also.
This is just what I was talking about and what I like about the OpenBSD community and loathe about Linux users.
So while we will never agree you have just made my point.
Slashdot Mirror
Those are just the kind of lusers that I'm on about. The ones who don't want to learn or contribute or put any effort into it. That is just what OSS does *not* need.
Because their is far more to it than the defualt install. They audit every line of code in the base install looking for bugs long before anyone is aware of them and long before there is anybody talking about sploits.
The OpenSSH in OpenBSD has been audited and has meet the core teams standards. The reason for the portable version is that they can't audit those versions deployed on other OSes.
The Apache that they deploy is really a fork. It is that much modified because it has been audited and that many fixes have been implemented that the main Apache tree won't take back.
The same goes for the default Sendmail and *every* other app in the core system. And because they are not busy fixing bugs that have known exploits they are free to find and fix bugs before they have exploits.
The kernel is audited to a degree that Linux can only dream about.
Now having said that all this comes at a cost and the goal of Linus and his team is *not* to be secure by default. Neither should it be. The goal of OpenBSD *is* to be secure by defualt. So it really does go far beyond packaging.
"and you've only confirmed my suspicions - that you're an elitist, arrogant, socially ignorant individual."
And proud of it. Here is the problem you are making the assumption that I want to live in or have anything to do with your world. I simply don't. I know you won't understand or accept this cause you really can't imagine that anybody would reject what you call normal but I do. Now I don't enter your world and tell you you are wrong and that you need to change to fit my worldview. For some reason though you and others like you think that they can/should tell us how to run our world. I just do *not* get that.
Now since you seem to have missed one of my earlier posts and seem rather fixated on typos I'll offer a quote from a core developer.
"The discussion drifted to comparing Linux adoption with OpenBSD adoption. "Linux has business mindshare," Dale said, "Linux has done a better job of selling itself to businesses." In contrast, he continued, "we don't sell ourselves to customers. We're happy if they use our code, but we don't court them. And sometimes when they dangle money in front of us we say no."
Dale continued explaining, "we like to feel like we're in control. If they are giving you money, they're in control and can tell you what to do. Most of the developers are doing this all in their spare time, and are not getting paid for it. We want to play, we don't want to have to work."
So you see the core team members *really* don't care if anyone uses the system.
No, the anger is mostly because of people who don't grok my culture and my tribe trying to tell us that we are wrong and that we should cater to them.
No. It's pretty clear that the Doctor likes girls. But of course that just makes Jack seducing him all the better.
12
Where did I say Linux sucks?
Sure. Cut me a check and I'll be *more* than happy to just make stuff work for you. Here's the thing you are getting high quality code for free and you have people, most of whom do this stuff for a living, willing to help you. All they ask is that you abide by a few simple rules and show that you are willing to put some effort into it.
This is too much for you?
Ask for your money back.
Hehe. I am *so* going to steal that.
Testify brother.
Which I think is a *good* thing.
If you were to read though you would see that this is a 180 from every other interview that he has done. He has *never* given an opinion on Linux before. This is the thing that so many folks at undeadly find odd about this.
The only thing he has said on a long thread on misc is "If the Linux people actually cared about Quality, as we do, they would not have had as many localhost kernel security holes in the last year.
How many is it... 20 so far?"
Which is interesting and does indicate that some of us who thought it was out of context might be wrong. Alhtough it is odd that he would reverse himself like this. Thus much of the confusion.
Yes and yes.
Oh and a quote from one of the core team on just that subject.
The discussion drifted to comparing Linux adoption with OpenBSD adoption. "Linux has business mindshare," Dale said, "Linux has done a better job of selling itself to businesses." In contrast, he continued, "we don't sell ourselves to customers. We're happy if they use our code, but we don't court them. And sometimes when they dangle money in front of us we say no."
Dale continued explaining, "we like to feel like we're in control. If they are giving you money, they're in control and can tell you what to do. Most of the developers are doing this all in their spare time, and are not getting paid for it. We want to play, we don't want to have to work."
God I love those guys.
Odd that you don't seem able to read. Since I *never* used the word 'all'.
He's just not the type of most of the geek guys I know who go that way. But I am glad for you. :)
And what, specifically, makes me a mindless jerk?
None. I just like the OpenBSD approach better. For me, on that front, it's a matter of going with the best of two very good choices. And a large part of that "best" is that it meets *my* needs and wants. YMMV
I do. Have domain. It's new since that one though and since I now pay for bandwidth I'm not going to point /. at it.
Read again what I said. There are Linux Users and then there are people who know and understand computing with proper OSes and understand the culture and how things are done in our worle. I admit that it is a non-standard use of the phrase which is why I went to great effort to explain it.
I *love* the *nix UI but then again I'm the type of person it was built by and for. As far as I care those who don't like it can use something else. I for one would hate to see it dumbed down to attract users.
And you have no idea of all the places I try to communicate this knowledge. The number one thing though that has made me throw my hands up in the air and walk away is that it seems as if we have crossed a tipping point where the majority of people asking questions get upset when told to rtfm and are given a pointer to the manual. I for one *always* do both and most people I see out there do also.
So let me get this straight.
You want to play in our world, with our toys, and have us help you do it.
At the same time you want us to play by your rules of "civility" and do your reading for you.
No it is not required reading and neither should it be. But it should be required reading for *anyone* who is going to ask anybody giving of their time and knowledge to produce something good for them before they ask for help.
In your world we are forced to play by your rules. In our world you should play by our rules. The Linux community is more and more starting to try and play by your rules. I'm going someplace where I can play by my rules. And I am *so* glad you won't be there to muck up the water.
Haven't you figure out yet. That the OpenBSD team and a vast majority of the people who use do *not* want you. If not take this as a wake up call. I, for one, see no value in a userbase of the kind that Linux is attracting these days. So I'm *happy* to have put you off.
I know that he will be at least a recurring character. Not sure how often he'll be around. If you can, get the last Confidential where they talk about why they have Jack around. Very interesting stuff.
Yes. The new guy has a lot to live up to.
Rose is *brliiant*. Best. Sidekick. Ever. Mostly because she is not a sidekick.
And it looks like Jack will also be staying on which is great news. Having said that I know of a few geek girls who would *kill* to have a uncut version of the last episode, if you know what I mean.
And did you go RTFM? It's not that you must have knowledge but you *must* be willing to put in the effort to gain that knowledge.
We are talking about OpenBSD and you have just proven that you make comments without doing the basic reading to understand things. There is far more to "secure by default" than you imply.
Again thanks for making my point.
No I *love* BSD users. But then again I am and always have been an elitist asshole. Also see my post about what a Linux user is and what I don't like about them. You are 180 degrees off the mark.
Nope. Two problems. The first one is a defination. You are defining "Linux user" as "people who use Linux". I'm not. I'm defining it as all the people who think that Linux is Windows and want it to be just like that and those who refuse to teach and/or learn the last 30+ years of *nix inherited wisdom. And as with all things in engineering this requires telling people in no uncertain terms that they are full of shit when they are full of shit. Anything else just wastes resources. I see these quickly becoming the majority and have decided that I no longer care to use the same OS as they do.
The other is the idea that we should welcome people who don't want to put in the minimum level of effort required to become good members of the community. Good defined by me and others like me. Why? Becuase simply put we know this stuff better than the great unwashed masses of lusers. It should be them that change and conform to a long proud tradition not us who should be throwing out everything we have learned over the last 30 years.
I've been reading misc for a *lot* longer than 3 days I've *never* once seen someone flamed for being a newbie. I have seen people told in no uncertain terms that they need to learn how to ask smart questions. And it sounds like you do also.
This is just what I was talking about and what I like about the OpenBSD community and loathe about Linux users.
So while we will never agree you have just made my point.
Not the same reasons OpenBSD is. The model goes *far* beyone not having ports open which is the low hanging fruit.