maybe he did, but he is selfishly trying to convince people to take a step backwards just so he can continue to use xclock or whatever the fuck application he uses that STILL needs the x protocol....
yeah, I agree, I'm pretty sure somebody is working out how to make wayland network transparent, somebody must be, the writing is on the wall and somebody somewhere is thinking:
"dammit! in a year, my xclock will stop working, I have to make wayland network transparent!!"
we're repairing the damage your favourite idiots created by building the world you love with such a ridiculous, outdated mentality, no wonder the desktop never arrived on linux with people like you around...
my knowledge might go a little deeper than yours because I had an interest in computer graphics many years ago. Although I've not got a perfect understanding, I'm probably more right than wrong (or somebody here will tell me otherwise and we can both learn a thing or two).
but ultimately, the way that people write high performance graphics stacks now favours compositing and graphics cards require to do a lot of direct accesses in order to make that happen as fast as possible, you have a region of memory and it's mapped to a location somewhere in the gpu memory and you just blast it with data, you can't have too many processes in the middle here, so thats why we need a DRM (direct rendering manager) to basically give x a direct path to the graphics hardware without having to go through the cpu or the kernel etc, as little as possible anyway.
Anytime you have to context switch, you lose time, which hits performance hard, so everything is like cleared out the way and the software and hardware almost talk directly to each other, which doesn't really happen with any other software, writing files, accessing network, computing data, almost always goes through the cpu and the kernel and for graphics applications which render megabytes of data per second, this is just awful and dramatically kills the performance. The retina display on an ipad is 2560 x 1600, so at 24/32 bit colour, each complete frame is 11-15MB, imagine 60 of those? Easily 600 - 900 MB per second. All of that data is being transferred from the system to the gpu every second the display is on, so it's a huge amount of data. Of course, you can reduce this by using gpu memory buffers and "damages" to know which surfaces need to be re-rendered (i.e. rendered and transferred again cause the display information inside them changed)
However, this kind of "direct, get out of my way, let me speak to the manager" way of thinking doesn't really fit with the linux way of doing things, everything is integrated, the x protocol isn't really to blame, but the only reason for people wanting to keep x alive is because of the protocol, it is basically a way to draw pixels, lines, primatives, AND their favourite, abstract everything across a network so software can be anywhere and X will solve how to display it. EXCEPT IT DOESNT SOLVE IT!! Even when you want to network x, you have to manually setup a bunch of configuration on both machines to get it to work, it doesn't work by magic, or autoconfiguration, cause nobody cares enough to do it, evidently, cause even now you have to manually do this, 20 years later.....what a bullshit system....
Of course, then you get to the lower levels and a whole bunch of compromises come into effect, nobody agreed on even the most basic things, fonts, oh lets make a font server, which will never work properly because of all the compromises made for that and it'll only work in certain circumstances....
It really is the most bullshit, fucking stupid system ever created and people seem to be so stubbornly ignorant and stupid they refuse to kill it, cause I dunno, it's really hard to understand, you see some of the hatred for wayland from these people are you are just so flabbergasted by it, you can't even start to reason, why would you keep x alive? it's almost like it's their child, they wouldn't care if it had three arms, ate other babies and urinated acid and used it as a weapon, they STILL wouldn't kill it....or even contain it...cause it's their baby....Thats the kind of logic you're going up against if you talk to these idiots...
But it's such an ugly, nasty, knarly mess of bullshit and compromises that NO DESKTOP UI TOOLKIT USES IT, Qt, Gtk and Wx for example, pretty much just request a drawing rectangle and then do everything themselves, completely sidestepping x, but if you looked at the x protocol and especially a "unix haters" entry on the subject and know something about computers and/or programming, you'd understand why people want to kill it so badly.
Here is a true story, you might not like it, but it's true nonetheless.
You and your friends are a tiny fraction of the overall number of X users. You are insignificant in the face of our needs.
Right now, you number probably in the hundreds or even thousands, compared to the millions of users who use X because they have no other choice.
Please, by all means, continue to use X, but realise and understand that there are orders of magnitude more people who are NOT in your category and you are a drop in the ocean and we need to solve the ridiculous problems X has FIRST and then afterwards, we can always think about how to solve your problems afterwards.
OR, perhaps you can suggest ways to extend wayland to make it work with your usage scenario. But I realise that not everybody can do this because it's hugely complex, but it might be enough that you suggest ways to emulate the behaviour your need, or promote people to solve the problem on your behalf.
Personally, I hate the "if you don't like it, code it" answer, which seems to be the main "open source get out clause #1", but I really can't suggest we "do the opposite", thats the most ridiculous comment I've ever heard on the topic....
It's selfish of you to inflict your view of the world on the vast majority of people who really don't care about the features you so desperately require, that barely anybody else needs that you're perfectly content to screw over all those people to stay in your comfort bubble.
And please, don't reply with "show me the stats of how many people, blah blah blah" cause we all know it's true, so lets not play that game, ok?
even if you don't agree 100% with the design, you can perhaps help to make it more modular so you can do your own thing inside a common framework, but please, stop supporting that old rust bucket.
if all the people who worked on this ploughed their time into wayland, or other alternatives, we'd be done already...
x is dead, it's not even a challenger in the next game, the only reason it's alive is because nobody has a viable alternative they can use today.....
you're obviously not a fan of high performance desktop graphics then, keep your shitty x protocol, nobody really wants it anyway, it was a waste of 20 years....you guys are one of the primary reasons linux never made it to the desktop
somebody else has finally got it! the future of linux is not ubuntu or mint, it's android.
android is what linux should have been, it does everything and more than linux does because it uses and hides away all the bullshit that linux forces you to take care of.
and now android is eating the linux desktop market and is a major player.
sure, I can agree with that, but surely when the contract was up for grabs, nobody thought twice to repeal that specific rule as it's obviously not a good rule to have?
so whilst the fault will always lie with bush, the responsibility for it's continuation will lie with the person who is sitting in the chair and not changing anything
well this is tricky, whether to believe an anonymous coward who says he was a technician and probably knew dozens of machines and maybe the technical aspects better, or a non-coward user who claims the opposite but was just an owner of the machines and therefore has probably limited experience with the hardware apart from those he personally owner....
I wonder if there is a side by side evaluation online somewhere....tape recorder deathmatch anybody?
oh I wasn't commenting on the message of the original poster, I was more pointing out something abstract.
I think it's up to you whether you divulge information or not, but if you claim openness whilst hiding your own identity, then it's surely hypocritical.
I agree that keeping the DNA sequence under wraps is a good idea for now, it'll offset the time until somebody can potentially do something stupid, even if it means 6 months, well, thats 6 months more than you'd have if you published today. Since it's deadly, I don't think having 6 months over 0 months is a bad thing. Quite the opposite.
it doesn't matter whether anybody cares about him/her/the person, what matters is the message, which was, that the anonymous coward was withholding his personal information because it was the "right move" to protect the coward from outside intrusion therefore it was a hypocritical statement.
you on the other hand, are just an asshole, I care more about somebody pointing out hypocrisy because they are useful in society, assholes however, aren't really very useful for anything....apart from shitting on things....
the current situation already sucks ass, I'm glad they are moving in a direction to address it, even if it's not completely fixed, it's better than it was...
No, I do understand what POSIX compliance means and largely, it has it's uses, but it's not a selling point, it's not a reason to buy, nobody cares if it says it on the back of the cardboard box, it's not a reason to shout from the top of a building about how great a product is. The OP's reasoning was that the android was inferior because it Meego provides a POSIX environment, well....sorry, but androids API's are quite nice and more concrete than your typical linux distribution, so it's actually a more superior development environment because it provides a standard environment which all must support and nothing less will do.
Lots of API's are built without POSIX compliance, look at windows. So it's not a reason to buy and you can do without it, just that programmers are so focused on their things they forget what people want, which is something that works and works well and POSIX doesn't enter that equation.
The problem with libreoffice is not just the way it looks, but also the fact that it's not very well organised and some of the functionality doesn't work very fluidly. it's basically a poor mans microsoft office and it will always be that until somebody starts to care about the presentation.
Because of course.....presenting documents is what a word processor should be good at, if it's not very good at presenting a document and making it easy to do your work, then it's not doing it's job properly. A word processor isn't just about how good the code quality is, thats how a programmer thinks and probably the reason why a lot of open source programs aren't very successful. Code quality is not all, it matters the packaging too.
they'll use it to hack/break into servers, steal all the cool info they find and tell people afterwards "oh, looks like your server is vulnerable to hacking"
jesus humping stupid christ, listen POSIX fanbois.....here is something important for you to listen to:
nobody in the real world cares whether your phones operating system is POSIX compliant, apart from some developers, nobody else....my mother doesn't care, neither do I and I am a developer.
what I want is a system that works, I couldnt care less whether it's POSIX compliant or not, I just want it to be usable and useful. If I got that from a system which was not POSIX compliant, I would still be happy because my goal is not to be POSIX compliant, my goal is to make a cool app and maybe sell it.
POSIX compliance doesn't guarantee that and doesn't actually help me reach that goal any better than not being POSIX compliant....
so can you please don't rambling on about shit practically nobody cares about....
android is practically smashing down the front door as the default linux environment on the planet and it eschews the linux system for an application layer on top of the system, so much for POSIX compliance being a winning strategy, linux is what, 5% total consumer market share?
yeah, keep holding onto those old fashioned values....they are working out GREAT!!!
oh and btw, you're full of shit, a full blown office suite on a mobile phone is an awful idea and wouldn't have sold anymore phones, having angry birds preloaded however would have easily doubled the sales....also, libreoffice? the office application that still looks like office 97? yeah....errrrr.....you're a fucking fruitcake if you think that's going to impress anybody...
Cause I know some guys who used to own a mercedez benz with one of those who got "hacked" a few years ago.....I don't think thats the kind of hacked I would like to be when somebody steals my phone AND my fingers....
to be honest, I think most of the internet tried to apply it twice, got bored and just stopped half way.....cause a lot of what I read is unintelligible gibberish....although sometimes that proves an effective encryption layer....
Slashdot Mirror
bingo.....exactly!!
I'm fairly sure nobody using a mac has ever thought to themselves, not even once
"you know, the main technical drawback to mac osx, is the lack of x...."
I'm fairly sure, everybody using a mac, has always thought, wow, this is cool, I get to do my work and it's so easy and simple to use
maybe he did, but he is selfishly trying to convince people to take a step backwards just so he can continue to use xclock or whatever the fuck application he uses that STILL needs the x protocol....
oops, you're/your, maybe mine are broken too :)
yeah, I agree, I'm pretty sure somebody is working out how to make wayland network transparent, somebody must be, the writing is on the wall and somebody somewhere is thinking:
"dammit! in a year, my xclock will stop working, I have to make wayland network transparent!!"
then you're using slow equipment, or you're eyes are broken in some way
you number in the hundreds, maybe thousands if you want to be kind, there are millions of people using X, you are a drop in the ocean.
if you want to continue to use X, feel free, but don't drag us down with you....
we're repairing the damage your favourite idiots created by building the world you love with such a ridiculous, outdated mentality, no wonder the desktop never arrived on linux with people like you around...
my knowledge might go a little deeper than yours because I had an interest in computer graphics many years ago. Although I've not got a perfect understanding, I'm probably more right than wrong (or somebody here will tell me otherwise and we can both learn a thing or two).
but ultimately, the way that people write high performance graphics stacks now favours compositing and graphics cards require to do a lot of direct accesses in order to make that happen as fast as possible, you have a region of memory and it's mapped to a location somewhere in the gpu memory and you just blast it with data, you can't have too many processes in the middle here, so thats why we need a DRM (direct rendering manager) to basically give x a direct path to the graphics hardware without having to go through the cpu or the kernel etc, as little as possible anyway.
Anytime you have to context switch, you lose time, which hits performance hard, so everything is like cleared out the way and the software and hardware almost talk directly to each other, which doesn't really happen with any other software, writing files, accessing network, computing data, almost always goes through the cpu and the kernel and for graphics applications which render megabytes of data per second, this is just awful and dramatically kills the performance. The retina display on an ipad is 2560 x 1600, so at 24/32 bit colour, each complete frame is 11-15MB, imagine 60 of those? Easily 600 - 900 MB per second. All of that data is being transferred from the system to the gpu every second the display is on, so it's a huge amount of data. Of course, you can reduce this by using gpu memory buffers and "damages" to know which surfaces need to be re-rendered (i.e. rendered and transferred again cause the display information inside them changed)
However, this kind of "direct, get out of my way, let me speak to the manager" way of thinking doesn't really fit with the linux way of doing things, everything is integrated, the x protocol isn't really to blame, but the only reason for people wanting to keep x alive is because of the protocol, it is basically a way to draw pixels, lines, primatives, AND their favourite, abstract everything across a network so software can be anywhere and X will solve how to display it. EXCEPT IT DOESNT SOLVE IT!! Even when you want to network x, you have to manually setup a bunch of configuration on both machines to get it to work, it doesn't work by magic, or autoconfiguration, cause nobody cares enough to do it, evidently, cause even now you have to manually do this, 20 years later.....what a bullshit system....
Of course, then you get to the lower levels and a whole bunch of compromises come into effect, nobody agreed on even the most basic things, fonts, oh lets make a font server, which will never work properly because of all the compromises made for that and it'll only work in certain circumstances....
It really is the most bullshit, fucking stupid system ever created and people seem to be so stubbornly ignorant and stupid they refuse to kill it, cause I dunno, it's really hard to understand, you see some of the hatred for wayland from these people are you are just so flabbergasted by it, you can't even start to reason, why would you keep x alive? it's almost like it's their child, they wouldn't care if it had three arms, ate other babies and urinated acid and used it as a weapon, they STILL wouldn't kill it....or even contain it...cause it's their baby....Thats the kind of logic you're going up against if you talk to these idiots...
But it's such an ugly, nasty, knarly mess of bullshit and compromises that NO DESKTOP UI TOOLKIT USES IT, Qt, Gtk and Wx for example, pretty much just request a drawing rectangle and then do everything themselves, completely sidestepping x, but if you looked at the x protocol and especially a "unix haters" entry on the subject and know something about computers and/or programming, you'd understand why people want to kill it so badly.
Take a look at this and then try eval
Here is a true story, you might not like it, but it's true nonetheless.
You and your friends are a tiny fraction of the overall number of X users. You are insignificant in the face of our needs.
Right now, you number probably in the hundreds or even thousands, compared to the millions of users who use X because they have no other choice.
Please, by all means, continue to use X, but realise and understand that there are orders of magnitude more people who are NOT in your category and you are a drop in the ocean and we need to solve the ridiculous problems X has FIRST and then afterwards, we can always think about how to solve your problems afterwards.
OR, perhaps you can suggest ways to extend wayland to make it work with your usage scenario. But I realise that not everybody can do this because it's hugely complex, but it might be enough that you suggest ways to emulate the behaviour your need, or promote people to solve the problem on your behalf.
Personally, I hate the "if you don't like it, code it" answer, which seems to be the main "open source get out clause #1", but I really can't suggest we "do the opposite", thats the most ridiculous comment I've ever heard on the topic....
It's selfish of you to inflict your view of the world on the vast majority of people who really don't care about the features you so desperately require, that barely anybody else needs that you're perfectly content to screw over all those people to stay in your comfort bubble.
And please, don't reply with "show me the stats of how many people, blah blah blah" cause we all know it's true, so lets not play that game, ok?
even if you don't agree 100% with the design, you can perhaps help to make it more modular so you can do your own thing inside a common framework, but please, stop supporting that old rust bucket.
if all the people who worked on this ploughed their time into wayland, or other alternatives, we'd be done already...
x is dead, it's not even a challenger in the next game, the only reason it's alive is because nobody has a viable alternative they can use today.....
you're obviously not a fan of high performance desktop graphics then, keep your shitty x protocol, nobody really wants it anyway, it was a waste of 20 years....you guys are one of the primary reasons linux never made it to the desktop
ignorant cunt
THANKYOU!
somebody else has finally got it! the future of linux is not ubuntu or mint, it's android.
android is what linux should have been, it does everything and more than linux does because it uses and hides away all the bullshit that linux forces you to take care of.
and now android is eating the linux desktop market and is a major player.
sure, I can agree with that, but surely when the contract was up for grabs, nobody thought twice to repeal that specific rule as it's obviously not a good rule to have?
so whilst the fault will always lie with bush, the responsibility for it's continuation will lie with the person who is sitting in the chair and not changing anything
well this is tricky, whether to believe an anonymous coward who says he was a technician and probably knew dozens of machines and maybe the technical aspects better, or a non-coward user who claims the opposite but was just an owner of the machines and therefore has probably limited experience with the hardware apart from those he personally owner....
I wonder if there is a side by side evaluation online somewhere....tape recorder deathmatch anybody?
oh I wasn't commenting on the message of the original poster, I was more pointing out something abstract.
I think it's up to you whether you divulge information or not, but if you claim openness whilst hiding your own identity, then it's surely hypocritical.
I agree that keeping the DNA sequence under wraps is a good idea for now, it'll offset the time until somebody can potentially do something stupid, even if it means 6 months, well, thats 6 months more than you'd have if you published today. Since it's deadly, I don't think having 6 months over 0 months is a bad thing. Quite the opposite.
it doesn't matter whether anybody cares about him/her/the person, what matters is the message, which was, that the anonymous coward was withholding his personal information because it was the "right move" to protect the coward from outside intrusion therefore it was a hypocritical statement.
you on the other hand, are just an asshole, I care more about somebody pointing out hypocrisy because they are useful in society, assholes however, aren't really very useful for anything....apart from shitting on things....
the current situation already sucks ass, I'm glad they are moving in a direction to address it, even if it's not completely fixed, it's better than it was...
yeah....good point...I'd forgotten about that specific story...
No, I do understand what POSIX compliance means and largely, it has it's uses, but it's not a selling point, it's not a reason to buy, nobody cares if it says it on the back of the cardboard box, it's not a reason to shout from the top of a building about how great a product is. The OP's reasoning was that the android was inferior because it Meego provides a POSIX environment, well....sorry, but androids API's are quite nice and more concrete than your typical linux distribution, so it's actually a more superior development environment because it provides a standard environment which all must support and nothing less will do.
Lots of API's are built without POSIX compliance, look at windows. So it's not a reason to buy and you can do without it, just that programmers are so focused on their things they forget what people want, which is something that works and works well and POSIX doesn't enter that equation.
The problem with libreoffice is not just the way it looks, but also the fact that it's not very well organised and some of the functionality doesn't work very fluidly. it's basically a poor mans microsoft office and it will always be that until somebody starts to care about the presentation.
Because of course.....presenting documents is what a word processor should be good at, if it's not very good at presenting a document and making it easy to do your work, then it's not doing it's job properly. A word processor isn't just about how good the code quality is, thats how a programmer thinks and probably the reason why a lot of open source programs aren't very successful. Code quality is not all, it matters the packaging too.
they'll use it to hack/break into servers, steal all the cool info they find and tell people afterwards "oh, looks like your server is vulnerable to hacking"
jesus humping stupid christ, listen POSIX fanbois.....here is something important for you to listen to:
nobody in the real world cares whether your phones operating system is POSIX compliant, apart from some developers, nobody else....my mother doesn't care, neither do I and I am a developer.
what I want is a system that works, I couldnt care less whether it's POSIX compliant or not, I just want it to be usable and useful. If I got that from a system which was not POSIX compliant, I would still be happy because my goal is not to be POSIX compliant, my goal is to make a cool app and maybe sell it.
POSIX compliance doesn't guarantee that and doesn't actually help me reach that goal any better than not being POSIX compliant....
so can you please don't rambling on about shit practically nobody cares about....
android is practically smashing down the front door as the default linux environment on the planet and it eschews the linux system for an application layer on top of the system, so much for POSIX compliance being a winning strategy, linux is what, 5% total consumer market share?
yeah, keep holding onto those old fashioned values....they are working out GREAT!!!
oh and btw, you're full of shit, a full blown office suite on a mobile phone is an awful idea and wouldn't have sold anymore phones, having angry birds preloaded however would have easily doubled the sales....also, libreoffice? the office application that still looks like office 97? yeah....errrrr.....you're a fucking fruitcake if you think that's going to impress anybody...
Cause I know some guys who used to own a mercedez benz with one of those who got "hacked" a few years ago.....I don't think thats the kind of hacked I would like to be when somebody steals my phone AND my fingers....
to be honest, I think most of the internet tried to apply it twice, got bored and just stopped half way.....cause a lot of what I read is unintelligible gibberish....although sometimes that proves an effective encryption layer....