A bit of history. The 5th Amendment arose from the Virginia Constitution which prohibited the inquisitorial trial system that had been brought back by John Murray, 4th Earl of Dunmore the last colonial governor of Virginia. The references were to the original Star Chamber and its banning under Cromwell. The language was understood at the time to ban secret courts. The House of Burgesses of Virginia (which became the Virginia legislature during the war) specifically attacked. So the idea of the 5th in context is to ban "Star Chamber" like systems.This understanding was upheld in 1942 when Roosevelt argued he could imprison people based on evidence before secret courts.
Additionally the 6th Amendment, prohibits courts since obviously a secret court like FISA can't hear evidence from both sides.
IANAL so I'm not sure I can argue this much more deeply than I have above. But that's my understanding of the constitutionality.
Google "Obama Harvard" there are tons of images including from television appearances. There is an interview in 1991 with Frontline which is one of the most prestigious news / documentary programs in the United States.
The president of the United States during his campaign for president campaigned on objections to Bush's mass data collection. Obama expanded that data collection. When NSA officials were asked about it they lied to congress. I didn't know they were lying. This is a democracy.
If we are going to have mass data collection we have a broad public debate on the topic, congress issues a specific mandate, mechanism are put in place by congress for oversight and the executive branch issues regulations to implement that congressional mandate. That's the way this NSA program should have been done if we were going to do it. Snowden forced the first step the broad public debate.
1) Qt may work well, but KDE does not and razor-qt doesn't even try. 2) Qt works as well on Windows compared to other cross platform kits. It doesn't even support all of Windows though digia is doing a nice job.
First off those kits don't run so well under Quartz or Win32 so well. It is off and on but the support is iffy. I suspect that with X11 the support will be better but the feature set of Wayland fits the mainstream GUIs better. So what I would guess is that the X11 version doesn't get maintained much hence buggy, and is slow.
T-Mobile I'd agree has gone the other direction. But remember they merged with MetroPCS they are becoming a high end MVNO / Prepay vendor.
AT&T and Verizon haven't. Rather what they've done is introduced a situation where you:
a) buy the phone b) pay a year's subsidy then trade in the phone after 1 year or 8 mo early rather than paying off the remaining year.
That's far more expensive. You are basically giving them more than the surrender cost. That's not a no subsidy model that's just a crazy good deal for suckers who don't realize how much their phones are really worth.
For CSS development the new mini or an iMac would be fine. You are right that Apple doesn't serve this market well. The PC market offers far more choice of hardware configuration.
The mac pro isn't a general purpose computer, its not even a general purpose workstation... it feels almost like "Final Cut Pro Appliance" in the sense that its configuration options only make any sense to very very specific niche markets.
That's fair. Though I'd amend according to the higher end video companies (i.e. software in the $10k-50k per workstation) it is a great fit. So your "professional film editing workstation" I used to always joke that Apple was SGI 10 years later. And the MacPro is a lot like the Onyx or Altix in terms of design and function (though obviously not cost).
Good question. I still run windows on my desktop computer. I'd like to have OSX on it too though, because I have other OSX devices, and like consistency from one computer to the next.
Have you considered: http://synergy-foss.org./ Just run it on your windows box with the OSX box as a client. You can also use a KVM or just pop the monitor back and forth. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817399101)
when was the last time we had a 'public conversation' about public policy in the US? was there EVER a time? I honestly ask.
Happens fairly regularly. We've been having a prolonged one about healthcare policy and the federal vs. state governments. We had one about guns this year. We are finally having a public conversation about abortion where we are moving back to a de-facto state by state and county by county system. It happens.
The current legal interpretation simply violate the black letter law. They violate the clear intent. Moreover they violate the precedents from earlier generations. Moreover they were conducted by secret courts which the constitution specifically forbids.
There is a deep fundamental problem here with our system that things have gotten so far out of control. But that's the problem.
, Snowden's supporters (you) are going to be the ones everyone blames for letting the bad guys to get around the systems that are in place to try and catch them.
I've been reading/. for more than a decade, I haven't seen that here on terrorist attacks including that have happened in the past./. readers seem to understand the pros and cons of security better than the general public. So no.
When Snowden first started leaking he was, as is usually for the Obama administration, grossly overcharged. Instead of considering him a whistle blower or hitting him with minor charges regarding classified information the administration went for espionage. Espionage is a capital crime. They also threatened people to get him back.It is the USA that moved a whistle blower to a traitor.
If these secrets are really that damaging than Snowden should be given full immunity for past acts and the right to testify to congress behind closed doors. Otherwise all this "traitor" stuff is just more of trying to discredit him and distract from the conversation, the same as when they were mocking his girlfriend in the beginning.
I'm sorry but President Obama campaigned on shutting down the domestic telephone surveillance program under Bush. Instead he expanded it. He argued there was congressional oversight even while congress couldn't get documents and thus couldn't exercise oversight. I like Obama, I voted for him, I'd vote for him again. But he's just dead wrong on his war on leakers. We live in a democracy and we should not be engaging in intelligence activities not specifically authorized by Congress. It is simply too dangerous to the democracy to have a quasi military branch of government accountable only to the President.
The argument on/. is about theory not about the reality. As I see it you have an X crowd that talks about X not as it is but rather what it would be like in well configured environments, with extensions that sort of work integrated into the core product and working smoothly. The Wayland crowd talks about Wayland mostly like Aqua or Aero with RDP and applications fully converted. It is an argument about vision not products. On top of that there is the binary choice of breaking backwards compatibility and being able to design a protocol that is less flexible but more tuned to today's hardware. Which is an argument about design philosophy.
I agree there is a bit of conflation going on. Wayland mainly is designed to fix stuff that X11 developers don't like about the X11 code base. There is a tendency on the part of Wayland fans to think that Wayland is mainly designed to fix the things they don't like about Unix GUIs.
I don't actually agree that the X11 people want Wayland to be awesome. Most of their objections seem to be about fundamental design choices. These people are the minority who do thing X11 is better than Aero or Aqua. All Wayland can ever be is an open source version of Aero that likely isn't quite as good. The Wayland team is really good for an open source project the Microsoft team is way way better because well money talks.
Ultimately this same argument has been going on for 4 years. It would be nice to be comparing products and not visions. But I don't get the impression the Wayland guys are finished making large scale changes. They seem to clearly not want continuity of APIs so it would be hard for any of the distributions to tie themselves to closely. Even the secondary tools, like Qt, only support some versions of Wayland as a consequence. That's a long way away from a stable GUI.
I don't know why there isn't more progress. I wouldn't read too much into it. They have good people. X has been a mess since the break from the old XFree86. I don't have a clue how to count who is active and how active they are. For example Sam Spilsbury (inventor of Compiz) has been active on Wayland for the last 6 months. So they have a fair impression.
If I had to guess I don't get the impression that the Wayland devs care much about getting a version out that runs for non-developers right now. They are breaking APIs left and right even for basic toolkits while adding advanced features. It is an open source project so they don't have to ship. They want Wayland to be awesome, they don't really care if Wayland is now or not.
Yes exactly. X was "network transparent" when the primary users were on dumb X-Servers. Since the primary user base has moved to local, X11 has been hacked beyond belief.
Kristian Høgsberg -- been doing X11 for well over 10 years Bill Spitzak -- Inventor of Nuke some of the earliest work with video on X11. Jasper St. Pierre -- the X11 authority for the Gnome project
X11 isn't meaningfully network transparent anymore how it is used. If by "network transparent" you mean what everyone else means that it works well remotely then the solution for Wayland already sort of exists a variant of RDP.
Well yes, they do show data input and tweaking. So they do demonstrate the interface. I'd agree a major overhaul of the presentation like what happens in the video would in practice involve a major overhaul of all the slides and hence a lot more keyboard work. They don't indicate how long the keyboard guy starts end up working on that presentation after the meeting. Could be days.
Regardless, my point is they show the keyboard interface as existing.
We have Linux today because someone in the nineties wanted a free alternative.
That's a bad example of your point, KDE might be a better example. Linux came out of the Minix community, Minix was open source. Linux was a free alternative to a free product. Meant to sit halfway between the professional open source kernels that GNU was doing (Hurd) and the educational but rather impractical Minix kernel.
Vux you are now arguing something very different than a hold in the lineup. What you are arguing is that if you want a configuration substantially different than Apple's you can do much better with PC hardware. That's always the case. Apple mostly offers a single line of improvement as Steve Jobs put it: the products should relative to a particular price point and features set line up: good, better, best. The idea being that there is essentially a line with each one gets faster, better and more expensive than the previous. Pricewise they need to be close enough not to leave a gap but not so close that the customer is making complex choices.
PCs conversely have a complex matrix of possibilities where customers weigh options and get a best fit.
The imac has a 780M. Maybe I want a 780. The 780M benchmarks at about half the 780. they aren't even in the same ballpark. A sub $200 GTX 660 ti as fast as a 780M.
Excellent point. Apple is making huge sacrifices for light and thin. I own a rMBP. I love my machine but I'm not sure that I wouldn't like thicker, more like the old Macbook pro form fact and some of those features. Not having a builtin DVD drive is a pain. I have a great external BlueRay writer but it isn't internal. Huge sacrifices for light and thin is now part of the brand across essentially the entire product line. You don't like that, you don't like Apple. You were unhappy with the lack of an ethernet port. Same thing. Light and thin is expensive, you either figure OSX is worth it or you go PC and forget Apple as a vendor.
As far as the 780 for a pro machine. According to online reports the 780 doesn't holdup well for some of the more expensive pro applications. Which is typical of consumer vs. pro-grade equipment. The AMD chips are not tweaked for gaming. So for example Apple's FinalCutPro works wonderfully doing 4K editing on this chipset in a way that would be impossible on your GTX 780s because those are tweaked for gaming not video editing and CAD.
And this is the same things Xeons. You seem to be talking about a $3k PC with high end consumer parts and you don't care about sacrifices for looks. Apple just doesn't make one of those. HP or Dell or Lenevo. What about Apple would you like? I'm having a hard time figure out why you don't just decide you are a bad fit for Apple entirely.
And maybe I want a 3rd or even fourth
I think the iMac might support that via. Thunderbolt but mostly the idea is that iMac customers don't want that kind of setup. But mainly the assumption is if you want 3 monitors that's a pro setup you are supposed to be in the MacPro. Otherwise you are doing something funky (which Apple allows) and don't
And that 3500 PC literally runs rings around the iMac.
Agree here. iMacs IMHO have gone from pricey to a total ripoff. I'm hoping that Macmini revision makes these practical for people. That being said lots of people love these computers for the look. And those good looks + OSX IMHO is what you are buying with the iMac.
But its jump forwards in price, and sideways to what people actually want. I don't want a Xeon. That's a bunch of money for something I don't need at all. And I still can't put the video card I want in one... I can put a powerful video solution in it sure... but at an exorbitant cost that isn't at all what I want, nor priced at all where it makes sense to buy one.
This is the key point that we are disagreeing on. I don't see it. Let's say I put you in a high end iMac aiming the way you said: 3tb storage Nvidia 780 32g ram quad core i7
you are at $3300. You can throw a 2nd monitor on for a few hundred plus cables, so let's call it $3750. 30% above that puts you at $4875. So what minor change do you want to make that's an upgrade that a $4875 Pro setup can't handle? You wanted better video seems to be it and the pro has that.
____
If your point is that Apple has a limited number of configurations and doesn't let you choose exact components. That's absolutely correct. But frankly I don't see how there is a gapping hole between iMac and Pro.
So you have to carry [ethernet dongle] with you wherever you go, just in case. That is not convenient.
I'm the one doing it. Yes it is. It goes in my laptop bag at the end of the ethernet cable I carry in there. No extra space and maybe a few extra grams. I'd love to dump the ethernet cable, that takes up space and adds weight.
Slashdot Mirror
A bit of history. The 5th Amendment arose from the Virginia Constitution which prohibited the inquisitorial trial system that had been brought back by John Murray, 4th Earl of Dunmore the last colonial governor of Virginia. The references were to the original Star Chamber and its banning under Cromwell. The language was understood at the time to ban secret courts. The House of Burgesses of Virginia (which became the Virginia legislature during the war) specifically attacked. So the idea of the 5th in context is to ban "Star Chamber" like systems.This understanding was upheld in 1942 when Roosevelt argued he could imprison people based on evidence before secret courts.
Additionally the 6th Amendment, prohibits courts since obviously a secret court like FISA can't hear evidence from both sides.
IANAL so I'm not sure I can argue this much more deeply than I have above. But that's my understanding of the constitutionality.
Google "Obama Harvard" there are tons of images including from television appearances. There is an interview in 1991 with Frontline which is one of the most prestigious news / documentary programs in the United States.
And if you want someone who remembers him: Robin West who co-authored an article with him. She's real: http://www.law.georgetown.edu/faculty/west-robin-l.cfm
If he wanted to maximize damage he would have revealed specific intelligence assets. What he is doing is showing the extent of the program.
The NSA's use of general warrants to spy internationally is not "what they are there for".
The president of the United States during his campaign for president campaigned on objections to Bush's mass data collection. Obama expanded that data collection. When NSA officials were asked about it they lied to congress. I didn't know they were lying. This is a democracy.
If we are going to have mass data collection we have a broad public debate on the topic, congress issues a specific mandate, mechanism are put in place by congress for oversight and the executive branch issues regulations to implement that congressional mandate. That's the way this NSA program should have been done if we were going to do it. Snowden forced the first step the broad public debate.
1) Qt may work well, but KDE does not and razor-qt doesn't even try.
2) Qt works as well on Windows compared to other cross platform kits. It doesn't even support all of Windows though digia is doing a nice job.
First off those kits don't run so well under Quartz or Win32 so well. It is off and on but the support is iffy. I suspect that with X11 the support will be better but the feature set of Wayland fits the mainstream GUIs better. So what I would guess is that the X11 version doesn't get maintained much hence buggy, and is slow.
I don't think so. Not with a presidential pardon or an official grant of immunity. They wouldn't want to lose that power for an act of petty revenge.
T-Mobile I'd agree has gone the other direction. But remember they merged with MetroPCS they are becoming a high end MVNO / Prepay vendor.
AT&T and Verizon haven't. Rather what they've done is introduced a situation where you:
a) buy the phone
b) pay a year's subsidy
then trade in the phone after 1 year or 8 mo early rather than paying off the remaining year.
That's far more expensive. You are basically giving them more than the surrender cost. That's not a no subsidy model that's just a crazy good deal for suckers who don't realize how much their phones are really worth.
For CSS development the new mini or an iMac would be fine. You are right that Apple doesn't serve this market well. The PC market offers far more choice of hardware configuration.
That's fair. Though I'd amend according to the higher end video companies (i.e. software in the $10k-50k per workstation) it is a great fit. So your "professional film editing workstation" I used to always joke that Apple was SGI 10 years later. And the MacPro is a lot like the Onyx or Altix in terms of design and function (though obviously not cost).
Have you considered: http://synergy-foss.org./ Just run it on your windows box with the OSX box as a client. You can also use a KVM or just pop the monitor back and forth. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817399101)
Happens fairly regularly. We've been having a prolonged one about healthcare policy and the federal vs. state governments. We had one about guns this year. We are finally having a public conversation about abortion where we are moving back to a de-facto state by state and county by county system. It happens.
The current legal interpretation simply violate the black letter law. They violate the clear intent. Moreover they violate the precedents from earlier generations. Moreover they were conducted by secret courts which the constitution specifically forbids.
There is a deep fundamental problem here with our system that things have gotten so far out of control. But that's the problem.
I've been reading /. for more than a decade, I haven't seen that here on terrorist attacks including that have happened in the past. /. readers seem to understand the pros and cons of security better than the general public. So no.
When Snowden first started leaking he was, as is usually for the Obama administration, grossly overcharged. Instead of considering him a whistle blower or hitting him with minor charges regarding classified information the administration went for espionage. Espionage is a capital crime. They also threatened people to get him back.It is the USA that moved a whistle blower to a traitor.
If these secrets are really that damaging than Snowden should be given full immunity for past acts and the right to testify to congress behind closed doors. Otherwise all this "traitor" stuff is just more of trying to discredit him and distract from the conversation, the same as when they were mocking his girlfriend in the beginning.
I'm sorry but President Obama campaigned on shutting down the domestic telephone surveillance program under Bush. Instead he expanded it. He argued there was congressional oversight even while congress couldn't get documents and thus couldn't exercise oversight. I like Obama, I voted for him, I'd vote for him again. But he's just dead wrong on his war on leakers. We live in a democracy and we should not be engaging in intelligence activities not specifically authorized by Congress. It is simply too dangerous to the democracy to have a quasi military branch of government accountable only to the President.
The argument on /. is about theory not about the reality. As I see it you have an X crowd that talks about X not as it is but rather what it would be like in well configured environments, with extensions that sort of work integrated into the core product and working smoothly. The Wayland crowd talks about Wayland mostly like Aqua or Aero with RDP and applications fully converted. It is an argument about vision not products. On top of that there is the binary choice of breaking backwards compatibility and being able to design a protocol that is less flexible but more tuned to today's hardware. Which is an argument about design philosophy.
I agree there is a bit of conflation going on. Wayland mainly is designed to fix stuff that X11 developers don't like about the X11 code base. There is a tendency on the part of Wayland fans to think that Wayland is mainly designed to fix the things they don't like about Unix GUIs.
I don't actually agree that the X11 people want Wayland to be awesome. Most of their objections seem to be about fundamental design choices. These people are the minority who do thing X11 is better than Aero or Aqua. All Wayland can ever be is an open source version of Aero that likely isn't quite as good. The Wayland team is really good for an open source project the Microsoft team is way way better because well money talks.
Ultimately this same argument has been going on for 4 years. It would be nice to be comparing products and not visions. But I don't get the impression the Wayland guys are finished making large scale changes. They seem to clearly not want continuity of APIs so it would be hard for any of the distributions to tie themselves to closely. Even the secondary tools, like Qt, only support some versions of Wayland as a consequence. That's a long way away from a stable GUI.
I don't know why there isn't more progress. I wouldn't read too much into it. They have good people. X has been a mess since the break from the old XFree86. I don't have a clue how to count who is active and how active they are. For example Sam Spilsbury (inventor of Compiz) has been active on Wayland for the last 6 months. So they have a fair impression.
If I had to guess I don't get the impression that the Wayland devs care much about getting a version out that runs for non-developers right now. They are breaking APIs left and right even for basic toolkits while adding advanced features. It is an open source project so they don't have to ship. They want Wayland to be awesome, they don't really care if Wayland is now or not.
Yes exactly. X was "network transparent" when the primary users were on dumb X-Servers. Since the primary user base has moved to local, X11 has been hacked beyond belief.
Kristian Høgsberg -- been doing X11 for well over 10 years
Bill Spitzak -- Inventor of Nuke some of the earliest work with video on X11.
Jasper St. Pierre -- the X11 authority for the Gnome project
etc...
X11 isn't meaningfully network transparent anymore how it is used. If by "network transparent" you mean what everyone else means that it works well remotely then the solution for Wayland already sort of exists a variant of RDP.
Well yes, they do show data input and tweaking. So they do demonstrate the interface. I'd agree a major overhaul of the presentation like what happens in the video would in practice involve a major overhaul of all the slides and hence a lot more keyboard work. They don't indicate how long the keyboard guy starts end up working on that presentation after the meeting. Could be days.
Regardless, my point is they show the keyboard interface as existing.
You mean 386BSD. Linux predates FreeBSD.
@Vlueboy
That's a bad example of your point, KDE might be a better example. Linux came out of the Minix community, Minix was open source. Linux was a free alternative to a free product. Meant to sit halfway between the professional open source kernels that GNU was doing (Hurd) and the educational but rather impractical Minix kernel.
Vux you are now arguing something very different than a hold in the lineup. What you are arguing is that if you want a configuration substantially different than Apple's you can do much better with PC hardware. That's always the case. Apple mostly offers a single line of improvement as Steve Jobs put it: the products should relative to a particular price point and features set line up: good, better, best. The idea being that there is essentially a line with each one gets faster, better and more expensive than the previous. Pricewise they need to be close enough not to leave a gap but not so close that the customer is making complex choices.
PCs conversely have a complex matrix of possibilities where customers weigh options and get a best fit.
Excellent point. Apple is making huge sacrifices for light and thin. I own a rMBP. I love my machine but I'm not sure that I wouldn't like thicker, more like the old Macbook pro form fact and some of those features. Not having a builtin DVD drive is a pain. I have a great external BlueRay writer but it isn't internal. Huge sacrifices for light and thin is now part of the brand across essentially the entire product line. You don't like that, you don't like Apple. You were unhappy with the lack of an ethernet port. Same thing. Light and thin is expensive, you either figure OSX is worth it or you go PC and forget Apple as a vendor.
As far as the 780 for a pro machine. According to online reports the 780 doesn't holdup well for some of the more expensive pro applications. Which is typical of consumer vs. pro-grade equipment. The AMD chips are not tweaked for gaming. So for example Apple's FinalCutPro works wonderfully doing 4K editing on this chipset in a way that would be impossible on your GTX 780s because those are tweaked for gaming not video editing and CAD.
And this is the same things Xeons. You seem to be talking about a $3k PC with high end consumer parts and you don't care about sacrifices for looks. Apple just doesn't make one of those. HP or Dell or Lenevo. What about Apple would you like? I'm having a hard time figure out why you don't just decide you are a bad fit for Apple entirely.
I think the iMac might support that via. Thunderbolt but mostly the idea is that iMac customers don't want that kind of setup. But mainly the assumption is if you want 3 monitors that's a pro setup you are supposed to be in the MacPro. Otherwise you are doing something funky (which Apple allows) and don't
Agree here. iMacs IMHO have gone from pricey to a total ripoff. I'm hoping that Macmini revision makes these practical for people. That being said lots of people love these computers for the look. And those good looks + OSX IMHO is what you are buying with the iMac.
I'd assume Premiere... for OSX by late 2014 will use OpenCL. Apple is pushing their ecosystem in that direction.
This is the key point that we are disagreeing on. I don't see it. Let's say I put you in a high end iMac aiming the way you said:
3tb storage
Nvidia 780
32g ram
quad core i7
you are at $3300. You can throw a 2nd monitor on for a few hundred plus cables, so let's call it $3750. 30% above that puts you at $4875. So what minor change do you want to make that's an upgrade that a $4875 Pro setup can't handle? You wanted better video seems to be it and the pro has that.
____
If your point is that Apple has a limited number of configurations and doesn't let you choose exact components. That's absolutely correct. But frankly I don't see how there is a gapping hole between iMac and Pro.
I'm the one doing it. Yes it is. It goes in my laptop bag at the end of the ethernet cable I carry in there. No extra space and maybe a few extra grams. I'd love to dump the ethernet cable, that takes up space and adds weight.
Watch the video completely. You'll see a keyboard being used.