And therein lies one of my biggest problems with current Christian dogma. Two centuries ago, the Bible was the literal, unvarnished word of God. The Puritans were not children, with "small minds", they were mature, thinking adults, and for them, the Bible was true.
That's not true! In fact, the Puritan interpretation of the Bible was no "literal unvarnised word of God". I dont know where you got this assumption, but it's false. I am working on reading The Puritan Papers, and in their own words they do not believe in the literal truth of the Bible like you might conject. For example, the Anglican church regarded various portions of the Bible to literally demand that women be subservent, however, for Puritans, the role of women was far more revered, which was extrapolated from scriptural treatment of Mary.
Now, you're telling me that my Biblical teachings shouldn't have ended at childhood, that I should look beyond the actual words of the Bible for some other meaning.
No, no. I am not telling you that. Sunday-school is primarily teaching the bible stories, which are undisguised parable. They actually say in the text "This is the parable of XXYY". This is the childish teaching I am talking about. The parable is a method to illustrate. But the parable is not the message, the message is the message.
Twenty years of that can be classified as "not childhood". I make this point, not to applaud my age or my learning, but to point out that just because I reference Sunday school doesn't mean that was the end of my study.
I am not suggesting it was. If you are creationist by passion and true belief, great, good for you. However, many creationists are so because they think they should believe in the literal truth of the Old Testament. For some demoninations, this is the teaching. For others, the creation story was taught out of nothing more than tradition. Let me give you a real example. The Catholic church has taught the creation story since the earliest days of the church, however, as far back as 400AD there are recorded discussions that the creation story is a parable, like many others. During the Nicean Council it was almost left out of the bible proper. It was kept however because it was instructive, but not because there was evidence of divine inspiration. Unlike the divinely inspired books, Genesis's origins are not traced back to an author, and no inspiration is attached.
So whats the point? It depends on your faith and your denominations teachings. You assume that 200 or 300 years ago people had uniform Christian beliefs, and this patently false!
Unless you're willing to tell me that the people who put the Bible together were wrong, in either the scope of their endeavor, or the reasons for it, stating that the opening of Genesis was intended for children is, if you'll forgive me, a bit simple minded.
No, it's not intended for children! The bible story version of it, with big colorful arks and animals lining up and moses smiling and leading everyone onto the boat, and the bit about theres always hope and God always forgives and the super-happy depicition of it clearly is. It's a retelling of Gensis.
Nope, not buying it. I'll accept that the stories themselves, in their unwritten, oral tradition, were intended as allegories and cautionary tales. But the Bible itself was created to reflect the word of God, not fables, not children's stories.
That is patently false. You need to research the Bible. The Bible is a collection of various books. Some of the books are works of history, written by the fathers of the faith. The New Testament is largely the depiction of the life of Christ, mostly told by contemporaries. The Old Testament is made up of civil law - the Law or penetauch - the History - Macabbes I & II, - and letters between the tribes of the Chosen people.
Well that makes no sense. Sex offenders are already registered throughout the country. Have we seen any big increase in revenge killing since then? I mean, what, it's been over 10 years hasn't it since the federal law was passed?
Knowing where someone lives is pretty much all you need. You go stake out the house, see them, kill them. GPS just makes it a tad bit more conveinent assuming anyone can read the information.
Instead of being a clown, why not go look up and see what percentage of liberal and Democrat representatives and senators in Florida supported this bill?
The problem being, of course, that children are twice as likely to be molested at government schools than at home.
So, let's say you a child has a base-line chance of being molested by a family member of 1%. If they go to public school, they have an additional 2%. Total rate: 3%.
Numbers are theoretical, but the government, as you can probably guess, doesn't solve anything. I know you were jesting, just letting you know the numbers...
Because a Christian is a Christian is a Christian, and they're all nuts.
Well that's really the essence of the argument, I suppose. Anyone who associates themselves as "Christian" is nuts. That actually clears things up nicely.
I am not going to criticize you very much on this topic, but I will say this. It may be worth your time to understand the finer points of how this all fits into the "big picture". Walking about thinking all Christians are nuts is easy, but it doesn't help much when going through life. By all means believe what you will, but grouping all Christians together into one big pot is going to make a mess of how you view politics, the world, human events, and all manner of big things.
The difference between, say, Catholics and Baptists is so huge that even though the "Christian" label fits both, treating them as following the same religion is bound to disappoint.
I believe that most of the Creationists I know would say that that's always going to be the best reason to believe in Creation. I can ask one if you'd like.
Their belief in Creationism does not start and end with Genesis, I should hope. Ask one, and e-mail me if you can! Thanks!
Thou shalt not kill was dealt with very extensively by Aquinas. If you haven't you should definately read the tracts about war, justified war, and agression.
The creation story told to kids is designed and modified for kids. If you run into people who have no more education on Christian matters than sunday-school, you are very likely dealing with a person who has a child-like understanding of Christian faith. I am not saying that creationism and underdeveloped Christian education are exclusive, just that they are often found together.
Just because you received education until the age of 17 does not mean you have an adult understanding of Christian faith. You may - it just depends.
"Child-like" wasn't mean as a slur. It's just a description of what your education is. Sunday-school is preperation for a more full education in Christian faith. If that's all you have under your intellectual belt - Sunday school - you will not have a fully developed Christian conscience.
You can be a well educated Creationist, and if you are, you will recognize that the foundation of your faith in Creationism does not start and end at "because Gensis says so".
You weren't taught that he was a reverend? Odd, I was. But keep in mind that I was educated as to the facts of the situation. Speculation as to why King Jr. did what he did is really up to me.
I am not talking about Speculation. I am talling about, for example, his letters from jail cells, which are deeply religious. If you just learn about the letters without mentioning their content, you are missing why they were important. These letters were read to white and black churches all over the country, and helped turn the tide of public opinion by appealing to a core Christian belief in equality before God, and social justice.
I am not saying we should ignore the impact of Isalm on America. However, the impact of Christianity on American history and Western History is so much greater than that of Isalm or any of the eastern religions that no serious historian would equate them. Include them when relevant - that's the best guide. American was settled in the north by religious refuges of an extremely fundamentalist nature. This is very instructive about many things in American history, up to and including the Civil War.
There are so many topics being stripped of any religious connotation that it's really shocking>
Knowing about a religion and being taught the tenets of said religion are two separate things,
"Knowing", I guess, in my view, is understanding. I dont think you have to read large portions of the bible, or delve deeply into the points of faith to understand the Christian faith, but a degree of familiarity is called for, I think. For example, you probably do not need to know about the inner workings of the Catholic church, but you probably do need to know about the pope, why he runs the Catholic church, and his relationship to the monarchs of Europe. Knowing that Christians worship Jesus as God in the same person is pretty much required; knowing that Catholics believe in the myster of transfiguration is probably not.
And that's just how it is. You do the same to Islam, after all.
I don't agree with that view at all! I know a fair about Isalm, and I know a bit about it's history, and it's practice.
I hardly equate Wahabbists with Shites.
Next, you assume I am a Christian. Which is interesting.
All I was pointing out is that many people say they are Christian, because of whatever reason, when in fact they have no idea for what they signed up for! If you were baptized at birth, and then never had any association with the faith for the rest of your life, I hardly think that qualifies you as a Christian!
Look, if you are studying Western History, and it does not cover in depth the history the Catholic Church, a great disservice is being done unto you.
You cannot study anthing serious about America without knowing about Christianity, European religon, and the reformation, the counter-reformation, etc. Literature, art, music, world events, wars, politics - all of it is influenced by Christianity.
This is true to a much lesser degree about other faiths. The teachings of Confucious are interesting, but not in terms of their impact on American history, literature, or culture. Right now in this country schools have almost entirely removed any mention of religion. And it's a travesty! Not because religion is true, or right, or correct, but because it is so essential to the national character past and present!
Having a single class that talks about religion is garbage. It has to be integrated appropriately into the subject at hand. I know students now in high school studying the civil rights movement but have no idea how deeply religion tied into this movement. A main unifying cause between blacks and whites in the south - what caused many whites to side with the blacks in a fight for civil rights - was common religion. How can you understand the character and achievements of a many like Dr. Martin Luther King if you do not know that he was reverend, and that his father was a reverend? How many students know anything about his namesake? What does it say about him that he was named after the founder of the Lutheran denomination? About his upbringing?
Removing this line of thinking from a class on the civil rights movement is an abomination of history!
If you are unable or unwilling to accept or even understand this simple fact about what a Theory is, then you have no business even entering this conversation.
What the hell is your problem? Re-read my post. Am I advocated for putting anything relating ID in a scientific text book? No. I suggest that a good textbook should address the holes in the Theory of Evolution.
I am trained scientist. I know about theories, and laws, and facts.
I agree about Leviticus etc! Christians of the uneducated variety have a tendancy to pick and choose!
If you ask the average Catholic on what basis does the Chruch deny homosexuals full communion with the Church, they have no idea that is based on tradition, and not largely on scripture!
What I find sad is how many people claim to be Christian without knowing anything about what they claim to subscribe to!
I agree, it's sad. But the people who claim to believe the bible is literally true, do you think they would answer "Yes" to "Do you think if the bible said the 'mountains sang with joy' the mountains literally sang a song that you or I could hear'?"
I agree about Christian and hypocrite statement as well. I have no problems with Christians who are devout and fundamentalist, so long as they are sincere. If they are pretending to justify their bigotry or rage or ignorance, than that is really sad.
Except that ID is not a dissenting viewpoint to anyone with any scientific background.
I am not suggesting ID should be included in a science textbook.
As far as the theory/fact bit. I am well aware of the differences. But you should be careful about implying that evolution is perfectly understood, which of course, it's not. It is under constant refinement within the scientific world. About how speciation occurs, about the types of mutations that occur, about rates, about how certain species got to where it is now, etc. There are legitimate questions about evolution, and they should not be downplayed because it may open the door for religious explanations.
Now, about your other points:
literal interpretation of the bible forbids it
Like I mentioned, even the Southern Bapists you mention do not literally believe every word of the bible. An uneducated one might, but that is not the teaching, the doctrine. The mountains do not literally sing with joy. Metaphors are all over the place in the bible. Parables. Etc.
But because the bible is infallible (the word of God
Christians of nearly every domination and faith refer only to the New Testament gospels are The Word Of God. The Old Testament books are in some parts the "divinely inspired word of God", which means just that.
ID is nothing more than a sham to try to work around that pesky "separation of search and state" thing that our forefathers were bright enough to put into that pesky "Constitution."
Discussing ID in school, or creationism, or even religion, does not violate the "seperation of church and state". What our founding fathers did do was forbid the estblishment of State religion, which was a glorious thing!
You have to re-read what I wrote. I am not stumping for ID. I am stumping for a time and place in school for a reasonable discussion of what non-scientists believe. You can't understand anything about the world until you deal with this topic. The goal of removing all mentions of religion is out there, and it's harmful. The history of the Christian faith crosses over all topics: literature, science, mathematics!, western and american history, ancient history - it's all very deeply interwoven.
It is a sad fact that most people graduated from public school with no conception whatsoever of what effect the Christian faith has had on American history, culture, world events, and the direction of the world! It's a travesty! Scientists have pushed so hard against religion it's almost absurd. Even if religion were scientically undeniably proven false it should be studied, understood, respected, by educators, scientists, schools, and students. It is a major force in so, so many ways!
A recent survey showed that of all of America's Christians, over 30% believe that the Bible is factual.
Again, you missing what factual means. But even if that means what you suggest it means, that's not surprising. 30% is a clear minority. There are of course Fundamentalist Christians.
You shouldn't pretend though that Creationism is the same as disagreeing with Evolution, or seeking alternate explanations like Intelligent Design.
Where the heck did the rest of the Human race come from? I mean we are down to two males, one female, and according to the Bible incest is very wrong.
You'd be surprised what the Bible actually says. Things you think are in the Bible are often not. They are really based on tradition and doctrine, not scripture.
Regardless, just so you know. The Law - the part of the bible which sets down rules and laws - all are established after Adam & Eve, when the tribes of the Chosen are forming or formed. They are based on the works of prophets. Laws like the commandments and the laws of chosen people were all - according to the bible - inspired by the word of God or signs from God. God famously gave Adam and Eve only one commandment. Therefore, proscriptions against adultery and incestous relationships came well after the tribes were estalibshed.
A fundementalist, one who knows his scripture, could easily defeat your arguments without much mental effort or any really bizarre logic.
There is no other empirical evidence used to base this belief on -- hence, not a scientific theory.
The base of Intelligent Design is a metaphor.
Something like:
"Imagine you were walking across a large field, and stumbled upon a beautiful watch. You open the cover, and notice that it is exactly right - it keeps perfect time. Is it not safe to assume that the watch had a maker?"
It's called the Watchmaker approach.
Many scientists are openly anti-religious, which is why there is a big debate. Some textbooks go out of their way to antagonize religion. That's just not useful, not to the learning process, and not the scientific process. We shouldn't pretend that science knows all the answers about evolution, or how life got to the point that it is now. We shouldn't gloss over the anomolies that pop-up from time to time, or pretend like dissenting view points have no place in the classroom. Intelligent design is an alternative explanation for what happened to start the evolutionary processes that we know work. This whole situation could be explained away with a well thought out 2 paragraph section in a high-school textbook. Yes, evolution is not proven like a mathematical theory. Yes, there are gaps. This is what critics say about the gaps. End of story!
90% of the Christians I personally know tell me that the Bible is the literal word of God, and evolution is one of Satan's attempts to derail good Christians and keep them from the kingdom of Heaven.
Well, I hope you take a moment and inform them! Thomas Aquinas debated vigioursly the idea of inspiration, and how it applies to the bible. How does God work with inspiration?
There can be a few ways, according to Aquinas - really the preeminent Christian thinker - he can dictate it or phsyically write it (aka, stone tablets). In Islam, the Prophet recieved dictation from God. Therefore, for them, their holy book and the parts shared with the Bible, are exacting literal. It is the literal word of God. Another theory of inspiration is that God speaks to a person, and the person runs from that point. It's a figuritive kick in the pants. The same way a beautiful painting might inspire a poet to write a lovely poem. Another theory - one that most Christians would agree with - is that God breathes motivation and direction to the instrument to communicate what he wants communicated at that time.
From what I'm seeing, we're living in a society that is growing more conservative and backwards in its thinking about God and science, not the other way around.
I disagre with you based on my own experiences, but I think we'll have to just disagree on this!
One last point - the Sunday school I went to as a child focused on the creation story as being VERY important. And it drew no distinction whatsoever between the old and new testaments in regards to validity or accuracy.
I think is a big problem with many, many Christians! Your education as a Christian shouldn't start and end as a child! The creation story is great for children! It is instructive about the nature of God, and can be easily understood by small minds. If you stop your education at that level, don't be surprised if you have a child-like understanding of God and Christian faith!
I think really what we disagree about is who is a Christian. A Christian in demographic terms is a person who says he believes in Jesus as more than historical figure. For me, that's not a Christian.
Believing in Jesus is not enough! People who stop their learning about the faith at sunday-school level are missing what the true essense of being a Christian is about.
Thanks, but I never have posted on K5. I normally wouldn't post in this thread, but I see a lot of mis-informed commenting on Christian tradition. It's a shame that so many Christians and bashers don't have a better grasp of Christian history! You really can't understand Western history unless you have a good grasp of the history of Christian flock!
Remind him you can't just have a strict interpetation of 'parts' of the bible.
Actually, if the person is a Christian, you can. Most Christians do not recognize the old testament as applicable to them: it is a preperation for the coming of the Messiah. Since they believe Jesus was the Messiah, the rules set down in the Old Law are vacant.
This is why even the most devout of Christians do not feel bound by the old laws: about keeping Kosher, about punishment for various crimes, etc.
I'd like to ask these ID kooks just what god it is that developed all that they propose?
I think a lot of people who look at ID and consider to be interesting will you they have no idea!
I'd like to ask these ID kooks just what god it is that developed all that they propose?
Intelligent Design is not limited to just Christianity! I have friends of various non-Christian beliefs who subscribe to a very similiar idea of how the world got started. IE, a non-visible force started a chain reaction.
The "christian taliban" will stop at nothing to keep the money flowing to the coffers
Equating intelligent design propoents with the taliban is amazingly crass and bigoted. Find me a case of a evolutionist beheaded in public for showing an extra few inches of skin, and we can talk! It's really, really crass. Especailly for someone who lost a personal friend to the brutality of the Taliban.
will stop at nothing to keep the money flowing to the coffers
Whether you believe it or not there exists a huge number of very spirtually active people who are deeply committed to science and pursuit of objective truth.
perpetuating the ignorance for another generation is the only way to guarantee it.
It seems like you are the one constantly perpetuating the ignorance - of Christian faith, of people with dissenting views and standards, and your fellow man.
Is it really necessary to present things in such harsh terms? It is possible for adults to discuss matters without being blantly and purposefully hurtful!
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And therein lies one of my biggest problems with current Christian dogma. Two centuries ago, the Bible was the literal, unvarnished word of God. The Puritans were not children, with "small minds", they were mature, thinking adults, and for them, the Bible was true.
That's not true! In fact, the Puritan interpretation of the Bible was no "literal unvarnised word of God". I dont know where you got this assumption, but it's false. I am working on reading The Puritan Papers, and in their own words they do not believe in the literal truth of the Bible like you might conject. For example, the Anglican church regarded various portions of the Bible to literally demand that women be subservent, however, for Puritans, the role of women was far more revered, which was extrapolated from scriptural treatment of Mary.
Now, you're telling me that my Biblical teachings shouldn't have ended at childhood, that I should look beyond the actual words of the Bible for some other meaning.
No, no. I am not telling you that. Sunday-school is primarily teaching the bible stories, which are undisguised parable. They actually say in the text "This is the parable of XXYY". This is the childish teaching I am talking about. The parable is a method to illustrate. But the parable is not the message, the message is the message.
Twenty years of that can be classified as "not childhood". I make this point, not to applaud my age or my learning, but to point out that just because I reference Sunday school doesn't mean that was the end of my study.
I am not suggesting it was. If you are creationist by passion and true belief, great, good for you. However, many creationists are so because they think they should believe in the literal truth of the Old Testament. For some demoninations, this is the teaching. For others, the creation story was taught out of nothing more than tradition. Let me give you a real example. The Catholic church has taught the creation story since the earliest days of the church, however, as far back as 400AD there are recorded discussions that the creation story is a parable, like many others. During the Nicean Council it was almost left out of the bible proper. It was kept however because it was instructive, but not because there was evidence of divine inspiration. Unlike the divinely inspired books, Genesis's origins are not traced back to an author, and no inspiration is attached.
So whats the point? It depends on your faith and your denominations teachings. You assume that 200 or 300 years ago people had uniform Christian beliefs, and this patently false!
Unless you're willing to tell me that the people who put the Bible together were wrong, in either the scope of their endeavor, or the reasons for it, stating that the opening of Genesis was intended for children is, if you'll forgive me, a bit simple minded.
No, it's not intended for children! The bible story version of it, with big colorful arks and animals lining up and moses smiling and leading everyone onto the boat, and the bit about theres always hope and God always forgives and the super-happy depicition of it clearly is. It's a retelling of Gensis.
Nope, not buying it. I'll accept that the stories themselves, in their unwritten, oral tradition, were intended as allegories and cautionary tales. But the Bible itself was created to reflect the word of God, not fables, not children's stories.
That is patently false. You need to research the Bible. The Bible is a collection of various books. Some of the books are works of history, written by the fathers of the faith. The New Testament is largely the depiction of the life of Christ, mostly told by contemporaries. The Old Testament is made up of civil law - the Law or penetauch - the History - Macabbes I & II, - and letters between the tribes of the Chosen people.
Well that makes no sense. Sex offenders are already registered throughout the country. Have we seen any big increase in revenge killing since then? I mean, what, it's been over 10 years hasn't it since the federal law was passed?
Knowing where someone lives is pretty much all you need. You go stake out the house, see them, kill them. GPS just makes it a tad bit more conveinent assuming anyone can read the information.
Instead of being a clown, why not go look up and see what percentage of liberal and Democrat representatives and senators in Florida supported this bill?
No, never mind. That'd be productive.
The problem being, of course, that children are twice as likely to be molested at government schools than at home.
So, let's say you a child has a base-line chance of being molested by a family member of 1%. If they go to public school, they have an additional 2%. Total rate: 3%.
Numbers are theoretical, but the government, as you can probably guess, doesn't solve anything. I know you were jesting, just letting you know the numbers...
Because a Christian is a Christian is a Christian, and they're all nuts.
Well that's really the essence of the argument, I suppose. Anyone who associates themselves as "Christian" is nuts. That actually clears things up nicely.
I am not going to criticize you very much on this topic, but I will say this. It may be worth your time to understand the finer points of how this all fits into the "big picture". Walking about thinking all Christians are nuts is easy, but it doesn't help much when going through life. By all means believe what you will, but grouping all Christians together into one big pot is going to make a mess of how you view politics, the world, human events, and all manner of big things.
The difference between, say, Catholics and Baptists is so huge that even though the "Christian" label fits both, treating them as following the same religion is bound to disappoint.
I believe that most of the Creationists I know would say that that's always going to be the best reason to believe in Creation. I can ask one if you'd like.
Their belief in Creationism does not start and end with Genesis, I should hope. Ask one, and e-mail me if you can! Thanks!
Thou shalt not kill was dealt with very extensively by Aquinas. If you haven't you should definately read the tracts about war, justified war, and agression.
The creation story told to kids is designed and modified for kids. If you run into people who have no more education on Christian matters than sunday-school, you are very likely dealing with a person who has a child-like understanding of Christian faith. I am not saying that creationism and underdeveloped Christian education are exclusive, just that they are often found together.
Just because you received education until the age of 17 does not mean you have an adult understanding of Christian faith. You may - it just depends.
"Child-like" wasn't mean as a slur. It's just a description of what your education is. Sunday-school is preperation for a more full education in Christian faith. If that's all you have under your intellectual belt - Sunday school - you will not have a fully developed Christian conscience.
You can be a well educated Creationist, and if you are, you will recognize that the foundation of your faith in Creationism does not start and end at "because Gensis says so".
Paley was a fine writer, and I should have done as you did and found a well-written explanation of the Watchmaker. Thank you and accept my apologies!
You weren't taught that he was a reverend? Odd, I was. But keep in mind that I was educated as to the facts of the situation. Speculation as to why King Jr. did what he did is really up to me.
I am not talking about Speculation. I am talling about, for example, his letters from jail cells, which are deeply religious. If you just learn about the letters without mentioning their content, you are missing why they were important. These letters were read to white and black churches all over the country, and helped turn the tide of public opinion by appealing to a core Christian belief in equality before God, and social justice.
I am not saying we should ignore the impact of Isalm on America. However, the impact of Christianity on American history and Western History is so much greater than that of Isalm or any of the eastern religions that no serious historian would equate them. Include them when relevant - that's the best guide. American was settled in the north by religious refuges of an extremely fundamentalist nature. This is very instructive about many things in American history, up to and including the Civil War.
There are so many topics being stripped of any religious connotation that it's really shocking>
Knowing about a religion and being taught the tenets of said religion are two separate things,
"Knowing", I guess, in my view, is understanding. I dont think you have to read large portions of the bible, or delve deeply into the points of faith to understand the Christian faith, but a degree of familiarity is called for, I think. For example, you probably do not need to know about the inner workings of the Catholic church, but you probably do need to know about the pope, why he runs the Catholic church, and his relationship to the monarchs of Europe. Knowing that Christians worship Jesus as God in the same person is pretty much required; knowing that Catholics believe in the myster of transfiguration is probably not.
And that's just how it is. You do the same to Islam, after all.
I don't agree with that view at all! I know a fair about Isalm, and I know a bit about it's history, and it's practice.
I hardly equate Wahabbists with Shites.
Next, you assume I am a Christian. Which is interesting.
All I was pointing out is that many people say they are Christian, because of whatever reason, when in fact they have no idea for what they signed up for! If you were baptized at birth, and then never had any association with the faith for the rest of your life, I hardly think that qualifies you as a Christian!
I have no idea!
I am not a creationist, or a believer in the literal bible.
I am sure you could find one if you went looking, though, and ask him!
Look, if you are studying Western History, and it does not cover in depth the history the Catholic Church, a great disservice is being done unto you.
You cannot study anthing serious about America without knowing about Christianity, European religon, and the reformation, the counter-reformation, etc. Literature, art, music, world events, wars, politics - all of it is influenced by Christianity.
This is true to a much lesser degree about other faiths. The teachings of Confucious are interesting, but not in terms of their impact on American history, literature, or culture. Right now in this country schools have almost entirely removed any mention of religion. And it's a travesty! Not because religion is true, or right, or correct, but because it is so essential to the national character past and present!
Having a single class that talks about religion is garbage. It has to be integrated appropriately into the subject at hand. I know students now in high school studying the civil rights movement but have no idea how deeply religion tied into this movement. A main unifying cause between blacks and whites in the south - what caused many whites to side with the blacks in a fight for civil rights - was common religion. How can you understand the character and achievements of a many like Dr. Martin Luther King if you do not know that he was reverend, and that his father was a reverend? How many students know anything about his namesake? What does it say about him that he was named after the founder of the Lutheran denomination? About his upbringing?
Removing this line of thinking from a class on the civil rights movement is an abomination of history!
If you are unable or unwilling to accept or even understand this simple fact about what a Theory is, then you have no business even entering this conversation.
What the hell is your problem? Re-read my post. Am I advocated for putting anything relating ID in a scientific text book? No. I suggest that a good textbook should address the holes in the Theory of Evolution.
I am trained scientist. I know about theories, and laws, and facts.
Thanks!
I am not suggesting ID is the truth! I am presenting what ID is.
This is really what this debate is about. Does explaining what something is - Intelligent Design - mean I am advocating it!
Really, re-read what I wrote. I am not advocating for ID.
I agree about Leviticus etc! Christians of the uneducated variety have a tendancy to pick and choose!
If you ask the average Catholic on what basis does the Chruch deny homosexuals full communion with the Church, they have no idea that is based on tradition, and not largely on scripture!
What I find sad is how many people claim to be Christian without knowing anything about what they claim to subscribe to!
I agree, it's sad. But the people who claim to believe the bible is literally true, do you think they would answer "Yes" to "Do you think if the bible said the 'mountains sang with joy' the mountains literally sang a song that you or I could hear'?"
I agree about Christian and hypocrite statement as well. I have no problems with Christians who are devout and fundamentalist, so long as they are sincere. If they are pretending to justify their bigotry or rage or ignorance, than that is really sad.
Except that ID is not a dissenting viewpoint to anyone with any scientific background.
I am not suggesting ID should be included in a science textbook.
As far as the theory/fact bit. I am well aware of the differences. But you should be careful about implying that evolution is perfectly understood, which of course, it's not. It is under constant refinement within the scientific world. About how speciation occurs, about the types of mutations that occur, about rates, about how certain species got to where it is now, etc. There are legitimate questions about evolution, and they should not be downplayed because it may open the door for religious explanations.
Now, about your other points:
literal interpretation of the bible forbids it
Like I mentioned, even the Southern Bapists you mention do not literally believe every word of the bible. An uneducated one might, but that is not the teaching, the doctrine. The mountains do not literally sing with joy. Metaphors are all over the place in the bible. Parables. Etc.
But because the bible is infallible (the word of God
Christians of nearly every domination and faith refer only to the New Testament gospels are The Word Of God. The Old Testament books are in some parts the "divinely inspired word of God", which means just that.
ID is nothing more than a sham to try to work around that pesky "separation of search and state" thing that our forefathers were bright enough to put into that pesky "Constitution."
Discussing ID in school, or creationism, or even religion, does not violate the "seperation of church and state". What our founding fathers did do was forbid the estblishment of State religion, which was a glorious thing!
You have to re-read what I wrote. I am not stumping for ID. I am stumping for a time and place in school for a reasonable discussion of what non-scientists believe. You can't understand anything about the world until you deal with this topic. The goal of removing all mentions of religion is out there, and it's harmful. The history of the Christian faith crosses over all topics: literature, science, mathematics!, western and american history, ancient history - it's all very deeply interwoven.
It is a sad fact that most people graduated from public school with no conception whatsoever of what effect the Christian faith has had on American history, culture, world events, and the direction of the world! It's a travesty! Scientists have pushed so hard against religion it's almost absurd. Even if religion were scientically undeniably proven false it should be studied, understood, respected, by educators, scientists, schools, and students. It is a major force in so, so many ways!
A recent survey showed that of all of America's Christians, over 30% believe that the Bible is factual.
Again, you missing what factual means. But even if that means what you suggest it means, that's not surprising. 30% is a clear minority. There are of course Fundamentalist Christians.
You shouldn't pretend though that Creationism is the same as disagreeing with Evolution, or seeking alternate explanations like Intelligent Design.
Where the heck did the rest of the Human race come from? I mean we are down to two males, one female, and according to the Bible incest is very wrong.
You'd be surprised what the Bible actually says. Things you think are in the Bible are often not. They are really based on tradition and doctrine, not scripture.
Regardless, just so you know. The Law - the part of the bible which sets down rules and laws - all are established after Adam & Eve, when the tribes of the Chosen are forming or formed. They are based on the works of prophets. Laws like the commandments and the laws of chosen people were all - according to the bible - inspired by the word of God or signs from God. God famously gave Adam and Eve only one commandment. Therefore, proscriptions against adultery and incestous relationships came well after the tribes were estalibshed.
A fundementalist, one who knows his scripture, could easily defeat your arguments without much mental effort or any really bizarre logic.
There is no other empirical evidence used to base this belief on -- hence, not a scientific theory.
The base of Intelligent Design is a metaphor.
Something like:
"Imagine you were walking across a large field, and stumbled upon a beautiful watch. You open the cover, and notice that it is exactly right - it keeps perfect time. Is it not safe to assume that the watch had a maker?"
It's called the Watchmaker approach.
Many scientists are openly anti-religious, which is why there is a big debate. Some textbooks go out of their way to antagonize religion. That's just not useful, not to the learning process, and not the scientific process. We shouldn't pretend that science knows all the answers about evolution, or how life got to the point that it is now. We shouldn't gloss over the anomolies that pop-up from time to time, or pretend like dissenting view points have no place in the classroom. Intelligent design is an alternative explanation for what happened to start the evolutionary processes that we know work. This whole situation could be explained away with a well thought out 2 paragraph section in a high-school textbook. Yes, evolution is not proven like a mathematical theory. Yes, there are gaps. This is what critics say about the gaps. End of story!
90% of the Christians I personally know tell me that the Bible is the literal word of God, and evolution is one of Satan's attempts to derail good Christians and keep them from the kingdom of Heaven.
Well, I hope you take a moment and inform them! Thomas Aquinas debated vigioursly the idea of inspiration, and how it applies to the bible. How does God work with inspiration?
There can be a few ways, according to Aquinas - really the preeminent Christian thinker - he can dictate it or phsyically write it (aka, stone tablets). In Islam, the Prophet recieved dictation from God. Therefore, for them, their holy book and the parts shared with the Bible, are exacting literal. It is the literal word of God. Another theory of inspiration is that God speaks to a person, and the person runs from that point. It's a figuritive kick in the pants. The same way a beautiful painting might inspire a poet to write a lovely poem. Another theory - one that most Christians would agree with - is that God breathes motivation and direction to the instrument to communicate what he wants communicated at that time.
From what I'm seeing, we're living in a society that is growing more conservative and backwards in its thinking about God and science, not the other way around.
I disagre with you based on my own experiences, but I think we'll have to just disagree on this!
One last point - the Sunday school I went to as a child focused on the creation story as being VERY important. And it drew no distinction whatsoever between the old and new testaments in regards to validity or accuracy.
I think is a big problem with many, many Christians! Your education as a Christian shouldn't start and end as a child! The creation story is great for children! It is instructive about the nature of God, and can be easily understood by small minds. If you stop your education at that level, don't be surprised if you have a child-like understanding of God and Christian faith!
I think really what we disagree about is who is a Christian. A Christian in demographic terms is a person who says he believes in Jesus as more than historical figure. For me, that's not a Christian.
Believing in Jesus is not enough! People who stop their learning about the faith at sunday-school level are missing what the true essense of being a Christian is about.
Thanks, but I never have posted on K5. I normally wouldn't post in this thread, but I see a lot of mis-informed commenting on Christian tradition. It's a shame that so many Christians and bashers don't have a better grasp of Christian history! You really can't understand Western history unless you have a good grasp of the history of Christian flock!
Remind him you can't just have a strict interpetation of 'parts' of the bible.
Actually, if the person is a Christian, you can. Most Christians do not recognize the old testament as applicable to them: it is a preperation for the coming of the Messiah. Since they believe Jesus was the Messiah, the rules set down in the Old Law are vacant.
This is why even the most devout of Christians do not feel bound by the old laws: about keeping Kosher, about punishment for various crimes, etc.
I'd like to ask these ID kooks just what god it is that developed all that they propose?
I think a lot of people who look at ID and consider to be interesting will you they have no idea!
I'd like to ask these ID kooks just what god it is that developed all that they propose?
Intelligent Design is not limited to just Christianity! I have friends of various non-Christian beliefs who subscribe to a very similiar idea of how the world got started. IE, a non-visible force started a chain reaction.
The "christian taliban" will stop at nothing to keep the money flowing to the coffers
Equating intelligent design propoents with the taliban is amazingly crass and bigoted. Find me a case of a evolutionist beheaded in public for showing an extra few inches of skin, and we can talk! It's really, really crass. Especailly for someone who lost a personal friend to the brutality of the Taliban.
will stop at nothing to keep the money flowing to the coffers
Whether you believe it or not there exists a huge number of very spirtually active people who are deeply committed to science and pursuit of objective truth.
perpetuating the ignorance for another generation is the only way to guarantee it.
It seems like you are the one constantly perpetuating the ignorance - of Christian faith, of people with dissenting views and standards, and your fellow man.
Is it really necessary to present things in such harsh terms? It is possible for adults to discuss matters without being blantly and purposefully hurtful!