Is this good news? Are novell sales up, in part, due to their dirty-deal with msft?
I could argue that apple and sun also benefited from their deals with msft.
But, long term, although the individual deals are often beneficial, at least in the short term; the long term effects of these deals is to further entrench msft standards.
"India and Brazil have filed appeals against the adoption of the Microsoft-sponsored Office Open XML (OOXML) document format as an international standard."
I think the Superman-3/office-space like rounding error robbery was actually done in the 1950s.
I vaugly remember reading about it in a book called "computer crime" or "computer cappers" or something like that. I read about this in the 1970s, but I sorry if my memory is a bit foggy.
The last article I can get is from the 24th. I had to login with xp/msie to see the most recent articles, and to post this message. This seems to only happens with slashdot, no other websites.
I am using debian sid. Have cleared my cache many times. Have done apt-get update/upgrade. The most recent article I get is from the 24th.
Also, I can not login with debian/iceweasle. I just get a blank page.
I have worked in IT 28 years. I don't tell new people to "suck it up" I advise them to get out of IT. IMO: it is stupid to be in a so-called "career field" where you compete with $5 an hour off-shore labor. The specializations that are not be directly affected are being indirectly affected - i.e. tons of experienced IT workers trying to get started in infosec.
In fact, when seriously contraversial news is posted, like msft cheating to get OOXML approved, the slashdot message boards often get flooded with pro-msft zealots.
Five years ago, slashdot was msft bashing, not anymore. These days there are as many pro-msft zealots as anti-msft zealots.
So for every 10,000 IT jobs westerners lost due to cheap foreign labor, one job is for a westerner is created. And this article is trying to make it seem like this is creating opportunity for westerners.
CS is often derided also. Does a windows sysadmin really need to study algorithms and discreet math?
Some fields, like medicine, have strict standards for training credentials. In IT, it's all up the prejudices of the hiring manager. If the hiring manager does not have a degree, it is very likely that manager will not value a degree. If the manager does have an MCSE, it is very likely the manager will value an MCSE.
H1-Bs and L-1s are not entrepreneurs they are here on a temporary work visa. Off-shore workers are certainly not US entrepreneurs. Besides, do convenience stores really hire that many American IT workers?
"I have a problem and it's Indian people's fault" I never said that. I have a problem with massive off-shoring of US jobs, but I don't blame the people of Indian. I blame US politicians.
I must admit, I get a bit tired of Indians constantly playing the race card. Also get tired of Indians repeatedly claiming to be the "best and brightest" and implying that Americans are just too stupid to compete.
There are also liars who have an agenda - I don't mean you, I mean the people who created the survey. This "study' is no different than one of those studies put out by a msft funded think-thank. The study was done by a staffing company, what would expect the study to conclude?
If this was a real study, then lets see the primary source, lets have details about who was surveyed, and exactly what questions were asked.
Highly skilled immigrants help keep America competitive. They are no more highly skilled the US citizens they are replacing. They are absolutely not needed, this has been proven in well regarded academic studies:
The truth is: US companies want to off-shore even more aggressively, and bringing in visa workers is helpful to that effort. Read some of the studies done by Ron Hira (an Indian himself, I believe).
"These studies done at Duke aren't alone in their assessment that there is in fact no skills shortage. They're backed up by other studies conducted by RAND Corporation, The Urban Institute and Stanford University, among others, all of which settle upon the same conclusion: There is no shortage of educated IT workers."
Like Einstein and all those rocket scientists we got from Germany. The present program is designed to recruit cheap labor, not "Einsteins." US employers are typically getting average students, fresh out of college, with four year degrees, and employers don't even know who they are getting.
Why would you want to prevent our companies from hiring the best and the brightest? I have heard that line few thousand times. Guess we stupid 'ol 'mericans can't do no nuffin' without all the genius Indians, is that it?
If the work visa program was really about the "best and brightest" then the typical H1-B would a Nobel prize winning scientist. The truth is, the typical H1-B is an average student, hired right out of college with only a four year degree. The typical H1-B is no more qualified than the US graduates who are not getting jobs. The H1-Bs are just cheaper. And because of the lottery nature of the H1-B process, employers do not even know who they are getting. So how do employers know that they are getting the best and brightest?
Work visas coming into the US are nothing compared to the flood of jobs being sent off-shore. And they are not just developer jobs either, practically anything that can be done on a computer can be off-shored. Lots of sysadmin and DBA is being offshored - not all of it, but lots.
Raciest? How so? Because I posted actual photos of India?
I try to leave my site as open as possible, but every now and again it gets spammed. It is easy to fix, I already have. But hank you for bring that my attention.
As a programmer, I've not had a hard time keeping a job, finding a new job, or advancing in my career at all. So sadly typical. You assume that if things are alright for you, right now then everything is alright for everybody everywhere, and always will be.
> And they'll have MUCH less competition from H1-Bs. Actually, they'll probably be wrangling teams of them.
1) H1-B are far from the biggest threats. IT jobs are being aggressively sent off-shore - that is a much bigger threat. Practically anything that can be done on a computer can be done from off-shore - and done for a lot less than most Americans would want. It is much easier to send an IT job off-shore than a manufacturing job. Do I need to remind you what happened to manufacturing jobs in the US?
2) As I understand it, many IT managers in the US are Indians, and many of these new Indian managers have a strong preference for hiring other Indians.
3) Take a look at this post, I responded to similar comments:
So, I'm curious, you say that you foresee the end of the US IT job market. Why?
Aggressive off-shoring. Jobs are being sent off-shore like mad, and off-shore workers are being brought in to do whatever jobs are remaining.
There will still be some IT jobs in the USA, of course. Some US citizens will still be hired. But the supply/demand ratio will make IT about the worst field you can enter.
What is happening to IT now is something like what happened to auto and steal workers in the 1980s. Except the assembly line workers did have to invest in specialized training, or fight to get specialized experience.
Don't take my word for it, read the headlines:
High Tech Industry Laying Off American Workers While Seeking Huge Increase in Guest Workers > "Currently, the Department of Labor estimates that there are about 656,000 unemployed IT workers in the U.S. In addition, the slowing economy has led to a loss of jobs across the board including in IT. The Denver-based Rocky Mountain News reports that Colorado -- the state with the third highest concentration of IT workers -- has lost 47,200 technology jobs since 2001."
Gains in US high tech employment more than offset by off-shore worker visas" > "According to the AeA Cyberstates yearly reports, "High Tech" employment experienced job losses of 945,000 in the 2001 recession. Since this drop in employment, the "High Tech" sector has recovered about 300,000 jobs, but during the period in question, a probable 669,681 H-1B and L-1 computer-related workers were added to the workforce."
IT job security plummets five times faster than nationwide average > "Job security for IT professionals plummeted more than 10% from January to February of this year, far surpassing the average job security declines seen nationwide in a rigorous analysis of U.S. employment patterns."
Take a look at the forums on dice - they are filled with people who have a degree, but can not get a job. Here are some examples:
"I graduated with a B.S. in Computer Science from New Jersey Institute of Technology (NJIT) back in January 2005. After I graduated, I was unable to find a job . . . so in order to pay bills and student loans, I had to get a temp job doing customer service, making $12 an hour"
"I have bachelors degree in computer science. I have 10yrs of experience in software and 5yrs in.net. But now i have been laid of and out of job for past 4 months."
"I graduated with a B.S in Computer Science last year May 2007. Though after applying to hundreds of places I've only gotten a handful of interviews and no IT job as of yet! All my other friends who majored in business or accounting managed to get jobs fairly easily."
Slashdot Mirror
Is this good news? Are novell sales up, in part, due to their dirty-deal with msft?
I could argue that apple and sun also benefited from their deals with msft.
But, long term, although the individual deals are often beneficial, at least in the short term; the long term effects of these deals is to further entrench msft standards.
JMHO.
"India and Brazil have filed appeals against the adoption of the Microsoft-sponsored Office Open XML (OOXML) document format as an international standard."
http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/146468/india_and_brazil_file_appeals_against_ooxml_standardization.html
I expect that in the future, the more popular languages:
1) will be disigned to run on multiple platforms
2) will be designed to develop multi-platform apps
3) will be designed to develop browser based apps
Just my WAG.
I think the Superman-3/office-space like rounding error robbery was actually done in the 1950s.
I vaugly remember reading about it in a book called "computer crime" or "computer cappers" or something like that. I read about this in the 1970s, but I sorry if my memory is a bit foggy.
Would it make more sense to subscribe to windows, then have windows just evolve? Instead of these painful, and silly, "upgrades?"
The last article I can get is from the 24th. I had to login with xp/msie to see the most recent articles, and to post this message. This seems to only happens with slashdot, no other websites.
I am using debian sid. Have cleared my cache many times. Have done apt-get update/upgrade. The most recent article I get is from the 24th.
Also, I can not login with debian/iceweasle. I just get a blank page.
I have worked in IT 28 years. I don't tell new people to "suck it up" I advise them to get out of IT. IMO: it is stupid to be in a so-called "career field" where you compete with $5 an hour off-shore labor. The specializations that are not be directly affected are being indirectly affected - i.e. tons of experienced IT workers trying to get started in infosec.
Yes there are such jobs. Lots of jobs for $35K/year that require college. Some tech jobs that do not require college pay less than $10/hour.
That is what I'm seeing here in Denver.
In fact, when seriously contraversial news is posted, like msft cheating to get OOXML approved, the slashdot message boards often get flooded with pro-msft zealots.
Five years ago, slashdot was msft bashing, not anymore. These days there are as many pro-msft zealots as anti-msft zealots.
So for every 10,000 IT jobs westerners lost due to cheap foreign labor, one job is for a westerner is created. And this article is trying to make it seem like this is creating opportunity for westerners.
Nice spinning. Damn nice.
CS is often derided also. Does a windows sysadmin really need to study algorithms and discreet math?
Some fields, like medicine, have strict standards for training credentials. In IT, it's all up the prejudices of the hiring manager. If the hiring manager does not have a degree, it is very likely that manager will not value a degree. If the manager does have an MCSE, it is very likely the manager will value an MCSE.
H1-Bs and L-1s are not entrepreneurs they are here on a temporary work visa. Off-shore workers are certainly not US entrepreneurs. Besides, do convenience stores really hire that many American IT workers?
H1-Bs and L-1s are not entrepreneurs they are here on a temporary work visa. Off-shore workers are certainly not US entrepreneurs.
I must admit, I get a bit tired of Indians constantly playing the race card. Also get tired of Indians repeatedly claiming to be the "best and brightest" and implying that Americans are just too stupid to compete.
There are: Optimists, Pessimists, and Realists
There are also liars who have an agenda - I don't mean you, I mean the people who created the survey. This "study' is no different than one of those studies put out by a msft funded think-thank. The study was done by a staffing company, what would expect the study to conclude?
If this was a real study, then lets see the primary source, lets have details about who was surveyed, and exactly what questions were asked.
The truth is: US companies want to off-shore even more aggressively, and bringing in visa workers is helpful to that effort. Read some of the studies done by Ron Hira (an Indian himself, I believe).
"These studies done at Duke aren't alone in their assessment that there is in fact no skills shortage. They're backed up by other studies conducted by RAND Corporation, The Urban Institute and Stanford University, among others, all of which settle upon the same conclusion: There is no shortage of educated IT workers."
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1081923#PaperDownload
If the work visa program was really about the "best and brightest" then the typical H1-B would a Nobel prize winning scientist. The truth is, the typical H1-B is an average student, hired right out of college with only a four year degree. The typical H1-B is no more qualified than the US graduates who are not getting jobs. The H1-Bs are just cheaper. And because of the lottery nature of the H1-B process, employers do not even know who they are getting. So how do employers know that they are getting the best and brightest?
Work visas coming into the US are nothing compared to the flood of jobs being sent off-shore. And they are not just developer jobs either, practically anything that can be done on a computer can be off-shored. Lots of sysadmin and DBA is being offshored - not all of it, but lots.
Raciest? How so? Because I posted actual photos of India?
I try to leave my site as open as possible, but every now and again it gets spammed. It is easy to fix, I already have. But hank you for bring that my attention.
http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=553136&threshold=-1&commentsort=0&mode=thread&pid=23409572#23412406
Also, feel free to visit my blog: techtoil.org
Also, lots of knowledgeable people on the dice forums.
I responded to similar comments here:
http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=553136&threshold=-1&commentsort=0&mode=thread&pid=23409572#23412406
Please note the statistics by the US Dept. of Labor, unless you put more faith in staffing firm spokesman.
> And they'll have MUCH less competition from H1-Bs. Actually, they'll probably be wrangling teams of them.
1) H1-B are far from the biggest threats. IT jobs are being aggressively sent off-shore - that is a much bigger threat. Practically anything that can be done on a computer can be done from off-shore - and done for a lot less than most Americans would want. It is much easier to send an IT job off-shore than a manufacturing job. Do I need to remind you what happened to manufacturing jobs in the US?
2) As I understand it, many IT managers in the US are Indians, and many of these new Indian managers have a strong preference for hiring other Indians.
3) Take a look at this post, I responded to similar comments:
http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=553136&threshold=-1&commentsort=0&mode=thread&pid=23409572#23412406
I responded to similar comments in this post:
http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=553136&threshold=-1&commentsort=0&mode=thread&pid=23409572#23412406
So, I'm curious, you say that you foresee the end of the US IT job market. Why?
Aggressive off-shoring. Jobs are being sent off-shore like mad, and off-shore workers are being brought in to do whatever jobs are remaining.
.net. But now i have been laid of and out of job for past 4 months."
There will still be some IT jobs in the USA, of course. Some US citizens will still be hired. But the supply/demand ratio will make IT about the worst field you can enter.
What is happening to IT now is something like what happened to auto and steal workers in the 1980s. Except the assembly line workers did have to invest in specialized training, or fight to get specialized experience.
Don't take my word for it, read the headlines:
High Tech Industry Laying Off American Workers While Seeking Huge Increase in Guest Workers
> "Currently, the Department of Labor estimates that there are about 656,000 unemployed IT workers in the U.S. In addition, the slowing economy has led to a loss of jobs across the board including in IT. The Denver-based Rocky Mountain News reports that Colorado -- the state with the third highest concentration of IT workers -- has lost 47,200 technology jobs since 2001."
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_may08nl02
Gains in US high tech employment more than offset by off-shore worker visas"
> "According to the AeA Cyberstates yearly reports, "High Tech" employment experienced job losses of 945,000 in the 2001 recession. Since this drop in employment, the "High Tech" sector has recovered about 300,000 jobs, but during the period in question, a probable 669,681 H-1B and L-1 computer-related workers were added to the workforce."
http://tinyurl.com/3pj2c3
IT job security plummets five times faster than nationwide average
> "Job security for IT professionals plummeted more than 10% from January to February of this year, far surpassing the average job security declines seen nationwide in a rigorous analysis of U.S. employment patterns."
http://www.networkworld.com/newsletters/edu/2008/033108ed1.html
Take a look at the forums on dice - they are filled with people who have a degree, but can not get a job. Here are some examples:
"I graduated with a B.S. in Computer Science from New Jersey Institute of Technology (NJIT) back in January 2005. After I graduated, I was unable to find a job . . . so in order to pay bills and student loans, I had to get a temp job doing customer service, making $12 an hour"
http://seeker.dice.com/olc/thread.jspa?threadID=6562&tstart=0
"I have bachelors degree in computer science. I have 10yrs of experience in software and 5yrs in
http://seeker.dice.com/olc/thread.jspa?threadID=7151&tstart=0
"I am a cliche . . . I am 24 year old, B.Sc. Computer Science grad from an above average state school, and I'm unemployed."
http://seeker.dice.com/olc/thread.jspa?threadID=4896&start=0&tstart=0
"I graduated with a B.S in Computer Science last year May 2007. Though after applying to hundreds of places I've only gotten a handful of interviews and no IT job as of yet! All my other friends who majored in business or accounting managed to get jobs fairly easily."
http://seeker.dice.com/olc/thread.jspa?threadID=6875&tstart=0
"Soooo. I graduate May of 07, with a 3.3 and a BSIT but no experience in IT Security . . . And I am $#*7 out of luck"