The biggest problem with C/C++ is the complete lack of a standard safe library. Developers don't like to say "You need to install these 20 other packages before my program will run on your system."
Also there are Language biggots that say "C is better than X because it's faster" or "Just because we have a 2Ghz, doesn't mean we should waste it."
C is faster than X? A language isn't fast, only it's compiler has had more time to be optimized. Natively compiled programs in fact have less of a chance to be fast for these reasons: 1) compiled for a specific architecture, usually 386. 2) can not inline shared library calls.
At the moment C may be faster than X, but in a lot of cases, X (where X is an interpretted or VM compiled language) will eventually over-run C in terms of performance.
Just because we have 2Ghz, doesn't mean we should waste it?
Also, you have to consider that these languages usually have enormous libraries and abstractions like Java so that developers don't have to code as much. This means there is less code that has to be checked for security issues. It means more efficient developers. At some point, the time of the developer out ways the time spent on the CPU. I would rather people were making this choice rather than to skimp on security. Security is often implemented after the fact in C.
Security is always more important than performance to me. You are playing with data. Data is the single most important asset that anyone has. People cry for hours over loosing just 4K-10K of data. I would say to those that don't have the time to make a program right in C (takes more time than Java if you consider security and performance) then don't write it in C. You could end up causing a lot of people a lot of pain.
If you don't like Java, use Python. If you don't like Python, write a good VM. If you don't like VM's, you better take the time to check your code well. If you don't have time either, don't even bother programming. You are just going do more bad than good.
So, if I understand you right, it's just a lot of little things that add up to annoyance.
Access is a neat way to give people access to a remote database for administration purposes. It doesn't have to do much more than an easy to use GUI for insert/delete/update. By no means should anyone use Access to create more than a trivial database.:) Most of what I see it being used for in the Office world is linking to some other SQL server through ODBC to get at data in a more custom way than their apps allow. I've seen one program written in VBA embedded into Access, and it was a horrible POS that took the company that made it out with it.:) (That's what they deserve for putting it on a SMB share... the locks database is not a substitute for concurrence.)
Actually... back in my student days when I had to enter a lot of formulas into a document, OOo > *.:) Play with their formula editor. It's the way formula editors should be. Microsoft Office gets a 1/10 in this aspect.
Actual editing is about the same as well.
OOo is missing:
a very smart way of dealing with paper/printing (no one has a good way of dealing with this... like, I have Bond in tray 2, Hole punched in tray 3, and an envelope feeder. You have to write wierd macros for MS Office to deal with it, and I don't even know if OOo can at all.)
Access
Mail-merge from arbitrary data sources (It may exist now.)
A slightly cleaner GUI.
Other than that, I love OOo. I reccommend it to just about everyone, and most are happy. I get a few angry people telling me it sucks because something isn't under file menu. I try to tell them it's not supposed to be the same program, it's just similar enough to use. Usually when I tell them to just learn the new way or go pay 200$ at Best Buy, they stop complaining fast.
I'm interested in knowing what you can do, or can do easier, in MS Office but not in OOo?
Just so I can know what use-case I would probably not want to recommend OOo.
Oh please, I'm tired of responding to idiot trolls already tonight.
Just because it is, doesn't make that the easiest way. It's only cheaper now(if by any significant ammount) because we rape some small country for it.
Try to argue it's cheaper in Europe to make Hydrogen from gasoline than other means.
The proper research has only recently been started for the most efficient way to make Hydrogen. Some include using lenses from space to hit ocean water. Wouldn't it be great if all the ocean could be used to mine Hydrogen like that? Much more plentiful than oil I would say.
Don't condemn it before the research is done. It's not like we started out with the best gasoline.
How much crack did you smoke before you posted that? Hydrogen is easily produced compared to gasoline. You can drink its waste. You can make Hydrogen from anything really.
I would settle for alcohol, because we get most of it from corn which has many uses, and can be improved with genetic engineering. There are engines that run fast and have more HP that run on alcohol (also easily concentrated). In fact, there are convertions that you can do to most normal cars to make htme run alcohol since its combustion. It is even a liquid, so it can be pumped at stations. Its fumes aren't poison, and if made properly, you could drink it for energy, burn it for heat, use it to sterilize cuts, etc if you wrecked on a deserted wintery road. (You can also use it's properties of evaporation to keep cool if you break down in a desert, though you can't drink it for moisture. Best of all, it's renewable.
Either way, you can make your own Hydrogen or Alcohol.
No, hydrogen power is for smart adults that would rather not kill people or rape small countries or destroy the planet in order to get from point A to B. Grow up and a heart.
Gotta love how quick you guys work on things... You have a great product. My only beef is really MySQL, you guys give developers, like me, who developed large applications using MySQL just to find that ACID compliance (particularly where corruption comes in) is more important than we thought an alternative. I'm still going to at least abstract the database and support other servers. I'll just use whichever database works better at the time:)
Thank you and your team mates for some great code. A lot of those people that love MySQL for no good reason will be using inno when they realize that there are a million things that can go wrong, and ACID compliance is the only way to ensure your database won't be corrupt. (and raid0... backups to remote locations)
Keep on inching MySQL/inno toward enterprise quality. Thanks again for your effort and code:)
MySQL 3.23.?? (I forgot the minor version since. approx 50)
Check table was just fine. Select * was fine select * where keyfield=keyvalue was not fine
alter table t type=myisam; alter table t type=inno; fixed the problem until it did it again.
This was a problematic server, and it could have been because of power loss if the keys aren't part of the transaction... I don't know how inno works all that well.
inno was running on it's own partions if that matters.
autocommit = 1:) I wouldn't do it any other way... if I want a transaction that requires multiple statements, begin/commit was made for that.
I hand compiled this version of MySQL on a debian system, so my libraries/kernel may have been newer than inno.
This may just be a freak thing that only I have run in to, and only I may ever. inno was working for a long time until I put a high volume table into inno's hands as well.
Just be on a look out for anyone else who has the problem. I didn't know I was the only one. If I'm not, maybe you can find commonalities.
I've developed my last application for MySQL. Everytime the server looses power, I have to ssh into client's servers and tell them how much data they've lost (repair table). It's not a happy time, and buy a UPS is not reassuring (most have them, accidentally bumping power switches/knocking cables loose still happens).
InnoDB doesn't have this problem, but then again, it has buggy key problems on all of my servers. Sometimes it can't find a record that is there (often this is worse than just loosing the record... you can't create a duplicate). I have to periodically rebuild the index on inno, so I scrapped it too.
I've used postgreSQL before, and it seems MUCH more robust. It can be a little slower on certain queries, but I'll sleep better after my clients are ported over. I also get updatable views, custom objects, sub-selects, embedded procedures (in a variety of languages), transactions, cross table deletes/updates, and speed when I take advantage of key clustering and these other features rather than hacked solutions for sub-select. I've seen people select "delete from table a where bid=\""+b.id+"\"" from b where c=3 into outfile d; then run mysql -u user -p d
Sure vacuum could be automatic when there is a great degree of fragmentation, but those are scratches compared to the gaping holes in MySQL like ACID compliance. I've looked at version 4, and it changes the queries so much that I would have to port my app to version 4. It's best I go another route than be disappointed again.
It sure does help Oracle migrants that pgplsql is about the same as Oracle's plsql:)
I like the fact that there really is no good and bad from a global perspective. Everyone has some reason to be acting some way. Every character has a basic goal, and if that goal is contradictory to the main characters goal, they may be seen as evil, but it usually isn't. It's usually the means they go about to achieve these goals, like torture and murder without any second thoughts.
Most shows these days are so stupid, that I pass out watching them. Examples: Tremors the series (no explanation required), Lexx (had a great show once, but the series is entirely about sex and power... disgusting really), CSI (They get the facts right more than your average investigator show, but most of it is still just jargon and statistics... is there really any kind of events of any importance occuring? If so, what makes this any better than watching a real crime show, with real crime, and real forensics).
The good shows get cancelled early because the average stupid person just doesn't get it. Family guy is a good example of this. It makes fun of the dumb gluton american, so it get's cancelled. Likewise, Futurama's political and social arguements are just overlooked by the average drooling couch-potato.
So what America really wants is superficial shows like "Am I Hot" or Jerry Springer or American Idol. This way they can feel better about themselves by watching other decent people get hurt. It's not that these people get hurt because they didn't try hard either. They want to see people loose because they didn't have a chance. It's always "Sorry you were born with a flat chest" or "You didn't know your wife was a stripper" or "You have a terrible voice, therefore you can't be a good person".
Violence on TV is the least of our worries in America. Children know violence is bad, they get spanked when they pull their sister's hair. But when some woman goes home crying because she's "too fat" or "doesn't have a good voice" what do you think children get out of this? Beauty magazines came first, but this second wave of superficiality has gone way beyond reasonable. You want to know why kids shoot kids? Self-esteem issues. These shows hurt MUCH worse than Mr Diesel destroying rooms full of equipment and people. These aren't real, and children understand that. But you can't tell a child "Am I Hot", "Jerry Springer", or "American Idol" isn't real, because it is. Being bullied in school in combination with the world telling you that you just aren't good enough is enough to drive anyone to not care about their future. If you don't care about your future, then shooting people that hurt you isn't a big step.
If you don't buy the self-esteem bit, how do you explain obesity from self-esteem related eating-disorders being so much more common now than in previous generations?
So... while good shows like Farscape are being cancelled, there are new shows coming out that could do a great deal of damage to society. The shows have no redeaming qualities either. Exactly what is "Married by America" supposed to show?
You think I'm a bigot about TV shows? Someone posted somewhere on here "You should respect other viewers preferences if you want people to respect yours." When your show isn't about seeing loosers going home crying because you couldn't count their ribs, maybe you could give me a lecture on bigotry, else, you need to go take it up with Mr Webster.
The satelite hackers have been using voltage to cause the same problem for a long time now. This isn't a very new idea.
If this is the best a hacker could come up with in the 5 years that critical software has been written for VM's, then I know where I should invest my time to make a secure system.
Not that I think this is the best you could come up with, just I haven't heard of many reports of Java or Lisp having security problems (MS's VM isn't really java now is it?).
I don't know about you, but I like my languages to be pretty static. You can't really learn a language that's different everyday. Also, I don't like languages that let you do things 80 different ways. There are enough fights over where the curley braces go. Perl is not a team sport. Open source perl scripts are slightly less open than open source programs.
Now, if Parrot has only one instruction for things like "until" and "while", and someone wrote a decompiler that supported each person's own style of programming, then we may be in business:) (assuming it saves as much info as Java does in the byte-code)
This is kind of like the whole.Net issue. If the program can be converted between the languages that the CLR supports, it would be infinitely more useful. If Perl can convert between any of the million dialects that any given user will use, then it stands a chance of making it much easier for people to share perl code.
We could all go live closer to the poles, build dams to keep the water toward the poles, freeze water on the poles(a good nuclear winter), or drop heavy things into the deap parts of the ocean.
The problem is, global warming melting the polar ice caps will cause more water to shift toward the equator, this slowing down the rotation of Earth yet more.
By the way, they are only saying that El Nino periods could have longer days right? This couldn't be a permanent thing could it? Or are the winds so strong they are breaking out of Earths gravity?:)
On a side note, doesn't global warming pose a much greater threat to increasing the length of the day than wind? If the polar ice caps melt, all the water will end up near the equator. Energy will need to be added to this water in order to get it up to the speed of Earth's rotation.
Mining minerals seems to me like it would cause more of an effect (since this effect would be lasting).
I thought the liberty alliance system was hardened to this by several independant implementations. Also I think they are supposed to have security inherent in the system. You create pseudo accounts that are only chargeable by certain other accounts. No middle man attacks should work because of the encryption.
Worst case scenerio, provided that the protocol is secure, is we get one of the root sites info (like a bank) and all the bank's accounts get screwed up. But we know how anal banks are about security.
I haven't looked at the information that much, but I thought it was supposed to be pretty much PGP for online forms and accounts. It will make those things that you fear, harder to do.
As much as I liked the project, it worries me when the government gets involved. The presence of the DoD always sends my paranoia up about 5 points on a scale of 1 to 10. They have no real need for this system except to track people.
If it weren't for the Liberty Alliance Project though, you would have to trust your private information to MS(Passport), because sites in the future will require one or the other kind of verification.
Which is less evil... DoD or MS?... tough question. MS only wants money. DoD could want an Orwellian society. I guess I would have to go with Liberty Alliance still... if Passport became popular, MS would sell information and give it the government without a fight.
I like my Strat... I was just thinking about putting an ATMEL in my Fender and replace at least one of the knobs with a digital button-knob to adjust effects that I put on it's EEPROM. I just don't know what I'm going to do about a UI for now. Maybe I will use a serial terminal to control the guitar... You can do that from a handheld! If I wanted to throw another 300$ at my beloved Fender, I could put a full blown hand-held in it for processing.
I know what you mean about the whole tube arguement. Tubes sure sound great, but I bet I could make a guitar sound identical to tube amplification by measuring frequency responce of the tube and doing my own EQ.
Anyone know of a good way to compress audio with only 10-20Mhz of power?... real-time streaming... didn't think so:( Maybe I could use the USB-ATMEL's and make an "Audio device" out of my guitar. With a good SB card, you can do real-time effects. I guess I should settle for a good 16bit DAC (18-24 bit, but drop the bottom bits) and just send the data over USB uncompressed. I could easily do 100Khz sampling to interpolate data.
If I were just going to make it an audio device, I could get off the shelf USB headphones. I want to be able to record all 4 pickups seperatly. I would have to play with the pick-ups too much to actually record each string seperately. Just imagine a digital whammy bar!!! They don't get strings out of tune. You could have them do wah-wah effects as well. You could select which strings/pickups are effected. I guess I'll have to play with the pickups after all.:)
It turns out if you have a key, you can just guess at it, and eventually break it... I just went to the source of the problem... the key. If you don't have a key, you can't break it. Unfortunately, as it turns out, you can't decrypt it either.
Seriously thhough: It probably is theoretically possible despite what you may see on here to make an unbreakable encryption. The only problem with this is that it can only be used on data less than the key size(AKA one time pad) and random data(AKA data of an unknown format). If you can accomplish either these two, I don't think anyone will be able to break it. The problem is: With a one time pad, it's pretty much the same as carrying the data to the other end; data is useless unless someone can understand it.
I've always wanted to start a cryto challenge of a crypto that had no signature and was of nearly random data. The problem is, computers are not that great at pattern matching, and won't be able to find a good pattern in your data format to begin with. This is compounded with no verification that the key you used is valid. In theory, you could get anything out of the decryption if it weren't for that pesky external signature. Remove those, and it could decrypt to just about anything the same length.
In a nutshell, if you had the perfect compression (theoretically impossible) it would be impossible to break your encryption (if you didn't have a signature or hash for verification). Now if only compression was encryption oriented (no predictable bits... thus not perfect), we would be all set. If you researched enough, you may be able to make it very hard to predict bits in compression.
Most encryption in the past has been broken by the redundancy of the data (Signatures, statistics, etc.) so that you know if you have the right key (the signature matches, the MD5 matches, or it looks like the target language). If it's impossible to know if you have decrypted the message, it's impossible to break.
hehe... There is always room for improvement. When there is an ECMA standard for it, it's considered a bad thing to improve.
That's a known bug with SUN's JVM actually... the file chooser dialog is slow.
My only point with the C/C++ arguement is how it hasn't improved as a language/standard. Java not being a traditional standard has afforded it a great oportunity to increase in usefullness..Net will get faster and Java will get faster. They have the same potential as far as performance goes, except MS can modify their OS to make.Net seem faster on windows. We'll see if they play fair, but we all know their track record. At least they stopped throttling the Divx codec. Programs that MS doesn't like have used 100% CPU in the past for no good reason.
I was not basing my comparison of the GUI speed on server side benchmarks. The Windows API is not object oriented or even good. It's a hack that makes forms draw faster at the expense of programmer time. They do this by using ID's that you pass into functions and global UI elements (seems to me you could draw on another programs form if you had an ID). They, as usual, sacrafice a good interface and security for a minimal ammount of speed. This is a compounded advantage compared to Swing with the current state of JITC. When JITC is as good as C compilers, Swing will be faster than native widgets because of the ability to inline function calls of the API.
On the general speed of Java verses CLI, I only admit my findings as some evidence since there is no real good evidence. Sure my evidence is flawed, but I stated it out right so as to not decieve anyone. I didn't make an unsupported claim like you did. I only made a poorly supported claim. Until you can at least support your claim that the CLI is faster than Java in some way, we'll just have to go with mine.
Hell, I didn't even mention http://javalobby.org/members/jpr/methodopt.jsp because it was run by a Java shop. It clearly shows how the IBM VM beats.Net and Mono hands down on function call optimization for object oriented programs. I don't have to dig deep to deep to come up with even a rudementry arguement that.Net is slower than Java. I just want to see some claim to contrary. If it turns out faster some day, all I have to do with Java according to MS is get out their migration tools and I'll be up and running. I have no incentive to learn C# because it's not big in the market, doesn't seem to offer any advantage over any of my current choices in languages, and in a lot of cases, is worse than Java (portability, possibly even speed). If someone actually had some good evidence that.Net was faster, I might find a place for it on windows desktop clients, but I can't even find that. I have found no reason at all to even give it a second thought, and reading the books that MS shipped us for free didn't make me feel any better about it. One bashes Java on every other page for trivial things that will likely change in Java over the next few years all the while there are huge gaping problems with.Net at the moment, like you mention, portability. I'm not going to learn.Net out of boredom or the quest for ultimate geekdom, because personally, I don't see a market place for it yet, nor even a potential marketplace that it could fill any better than Java.
I don't care about ISO/ANSI/ECMA standards because by and large they mean less than I've seen from Java. There are few, if any, C++ compilers that are up to spec. Even if they were, the standard class library is too little to be usefull. There are standard text based IO streams, but you have to use some third party library for anything else you need or write your own. The end cost for developing C/C++ programs is much greater than Java because of this. These third party libraries can't really be taught in school because there are usually 3-8 different competing libraries that are all considered on equal footing in the marketplace.
Java changes quicker than C/C++ because it's not an ECMA standard. People that claim they are Java compliant must be because SUN would sue them into oblivion over trademark violations if they weren't. They make sure that developers like you and I don't get burned by some "Embrace and Extend" campaign. There is a community process in which many new ideas have been implemented and made part of Java. I really don't see that kind of activity from ECMA standards, nor do I see any way to enforce the ECMA standard on anyone. The standard is meaningless without some way of enforcing it.
I don't know... You would think with all these fast new machine's out, we would be able to run an experiment and emulate to find out how many licks it would take...
See, and most people probably thought that was off topic.
"NET is the Sun/Java 'write once, run anywhere' concept done right because it's:"
--Oh really?
"- Language Independant (although I would agree that C# seems best suited to it for me)"
There are even LISP compilers for Java. If you haven't found what you are looking for, you just haven't looked hard enough.
"- Potentially Platform Independant (not yet, maybe not soon, but possible - well done to the Mono team)"
No it's not. Not as much as Java. Looking at the way MS treated Java (changing the core java.* libraries) I doubt it ever will be. You'll have to excuse me for looking at MS's track record to gauge their future conduct instead of fairy-tale hype told to managers to try to persuade them to buy.
"- Generally runs faster than Java on Windows ('big surprise' you say - but see how Mono goes)"
No it doesn't. As far as I can tell, MS really doesn't want to benchmark this at all. There have been no C# vs anything benchmarks. Not even the falsified for the public kind. There have been benchmarks of 2.5 Tier.Net web applications against broken, obfiscated J2EE implementations though. They tend to suggest that you can use 10x the LOC and still only be 2x slower. Sounds to me like Java cat run 5x more code per clock. I don't doubt the UI will be faster for.Net when you write a GUI. No faster than SWT, but faster than Swing by some ammount..Net programs will start faster because it will be loaded at boot time like explorer(22M). Java will have this capability, and shared VM capability soon though, and most of my Java programs, with the VM, only use 11-14M of RAM.
Just so you know... I think the problems that you mention were fixed in Java 1.4... In fact, they were the major concerns of the release other than NIO and the obvious stuff. Also, non-SUN JRE's preform much better as well on the whole. IBM makes the best, but SUN caught up a lot on 1.4, and surpassed IBM in a select few cases. IBM now has a 1.4 JDK for Linux on xSeries(x86). It's only free as in beer, but it's worth toying with to get a feel of where Java is headed in the next few years.
I'm fairly sure this is a hoax memo, but even if it's not, it only talks about the implementation of Java on Solaris.
The main reason I like Java is that I won't have to do anything, and my programs will magically get faster, support 64bit processors and other architectures. Java has the potential to be faster than C. Java libraries/classes can have functions inlined at run-time. C has to be recompiled. Java can optimize for whatever processor it is running on. C has to be compiled for the least common denominator of hardware it will be running on. Java programs have an extensively tested standard API of functions to ensure backwards compatibility. In C you may have to recompile or change code whenever a new version of Windows rolls out. Java is a very well structured object oriented language compared to C or C++. Java SQL database drivers must adhere to strict SQL standards to be considered for different levels of JDBC compliance. I can write SQL that is garaunteed by the JDBC driver to work on a database, thus having true database independance. In C, each vendor implements a different subset of SQL in different ways such that you have to pick up a third party abstraction layer, or write your own, or target one database (ODBC doesn't work, even Access runs queries locally).
The only downsides to Java is: all java programs will use more memory than C programs... always! Java programs will take longer to start until a shared VM is implemented(is a JSR right now). Java will be slightly slower than C until Java has had about half as much time to develop compiler(JITC) technology that C has. Java will be slower at floating point until an API for fast system-dependant/non-IEEE floating point math is supported (This is why people claim, and are accurate to a degree, that Java isn't as fast as C at raw number crunching... This is probably the only reason as well).
Of those, the only problem that will always plague Java is large memory footprint. That is because it comes with it's own libraries and must do garbage collection.
It's appearant to anyone (like g4dget) that SUN sinks more time into the Windows JRE than anything else. The second biggest, as of 1.4, I would have to say is Linux/Mac. Solaris is the lowest on the list really. Most people that use Solaris use it for Oracle. The Java market has always been on Windows and IBM machines. IBM rolls their own, and they do a great job. Maybe they will release theirs a bit more free if their agreement with SUN will let them. I don't think they are allowed to discuss their contract with SUN because of the contract itself. At least, that's the rumor about the Java contracts that was on the net about 5 years ago.
Yeah... you just made it all clear to me. I understand it now. He wants credit for things that are going to happen in the next 10-50 years. He wants to be known as "The president that started the mission to mars project and required cars to use hydrogen power." Basically, he wants to blame everyone before him for a big mess, then in another 10 years, go down in history as the man who brought the world into the 21st century.
He's just starting things that he has no intentions of solving or finishing. Some work will be done, but if he were in the office for the next 10-50 years (*GASP* THE HORROR!) he would abondon them. Basically, all he says is "I want cars to run on hydrogen by some date past any date I could be in office." Then if the date gets extended, he mocks the Democrats saying they slacked on the project. If it's a Republican, he comes and says he may have been a bit unrealistic.
I ask myself all the time, where would we be with Al Gore. I believe he would have used the sympathy from terrorism to help promote a closer look on the Mid-East, but I really don't think he would be going to war with Iraq. He would probably actually have a schedule that the automotive industries would have to abide by, not just say do it by then. Sadly though, I think the first Patriot Act would have been passed... probably not in it's current form, but I think it would have been restrictive.
Ralph Nader on the other hand would have angered all of Congress to the point that he couldn't get anything passed because he want's to take away their easy life style of lobbying, but MS would be in for some real trouble, because he would tell the DOJ to do their job.
I honestly don't know anyone that could have done a good job this last term, but I really think Nader would have been a jump that the government can't handle, but Gore would have been a good step in the right direction. People that argue that Gore is as bad as Bush are really sad though. If they have to argue that Gore is just as bad as Bush, then they should be out voting for the one they have to argue is as bad, not the one that they know is horrible.
And really... what did Clinton do that was so bad... I keep forgeting, was his penis elected for president, or him. What he does in his personal life is of no concern to anyone but his family. I don't buy the story about Clinton letting the FBI weaken... they knew plenty, and Bush had been in office for long enough, and he didn't think to worry about it, did he?
Do most people not realize that the economy came back after Sep 11, then it fell again. This holiday season was worse than last. The terrorists didn't blow up any more buildings. There is no excuse for it except that Bush is lousey with economics. If he gets elected(again for the first time), I'm packing. I may not be able to avoid the flushing of the economy by leaving, but at least I won't be in the center of the spiral.
Well, that's my rant:) Some of it may be extremist, but to be honest, this is the most extreme situation I think America has ever been in. Just about everyone in the world has told the US to screw themselves when Bush asks for some help with Iraq. I don't think it's above some people in the government to plant evidence in Iraq to support a war effort. Bush is from Texas, and he likes his oil fresh and guns blazing. His economic policy: walk it off, then if that doesn't work, we'll shoot our way out.
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The biggest problem with C/C++ is the complete lack of a standard safe library. Developers don't like to say "You need to install these 20 other packages before my program will run on your system."
Also there are Language biggots that say "C is better than X because it's faster" or "Just because we have a 2Ghz, doesn't mean we should waste it."
C is faster than X?
A language isn't fast, only it's compiler has had more time to be optimized. Natively compiled programs in fact have less of a chance to be fast for these reasons:
1) compiled for a specific architecture, usually 386.
2) can not inline shared library calls.
At the moment C may be faster than X, but in a lot of cases, X (where X is an interpretted or VM compiled language) will eventually over-run C in terms of performance.
Just because we have 2Ghz, doesn't mean we should waste it?
Also, you have to consider that these languages usually have enormous libraries and abstractions like Java so that developers don't have to code as much. This means there is less code that has to be checked for security issues. It means more efficient developers. At some point, the time of the developer out ways the time spent on the CPU. I would rather people were making this choice rather than to skimp on security. Security is often implemented after the fact in C.
Security is always more important than performance to me. You are playing with data. Data is the single most important asset that anyone has. People cry for hours over loosing just 4K-10K of data. I would say to those that don't have the time to make a program right in C (takes more time than Java if you consider security and performance) then don't write it in C. You could end up causing a lot of people a lot of pain.
If you don't like Java, use Python. If you don't like Python, write a good VM. If you don't like VM's, you better take the time to check your code well. If you don't have time either, don't even bother programming. You are just going do more bad than good.
Thanks for the info! Now if only that had been under tools->macros :) Just kidding :)
So, if I understand you right, it's just a lot of little things that add up to annoyance.
:) Most of what I see it being used for in the Office world is linking to some other SQL server through ODBC to get at data in a more custom way than their apps allow. I've seen one program written in VBA embedded into Access, and it was a horrible POS that took the company that made it out with it. :) (That's what they deserve for putting it on a SMB share... the locks database is not a substitute for concurrence.)
Access is a neat way to give people access to a remote database for administration purposes. It doesn't have to do much more than an easy to use GUI for insert/delete/update. By no means should anyone use Access to create more than a trivial database.
Actually... back in my student days when I had to enter a lot of formulas into a document, OOo > *. :) Play with their formula editor. It's the way formula editors should be. Microsoft Office gets a 1/10 in this aspect.
... like, I have Bond in tray 2, Hole punched in tray 3, and an envelope feeder. You have to write wierd macros for MS Office to deal with it, and I don't even know if OOo can at all.)
Actual editing is about the same as well.
OOo is missing:
a very smart way of dealing with paper/printing (no one has a good way of dealing with this
Access
Mail-merge from arbitrary data sources (It may exist now.)
A slightly cleaner GUI.
Other than that, I love OOo. I reccommend it to just about everyone, and most are happy. I get a few angry people telling me it sucks because something isn't under file menu. I try to tell them it's not supposed to be the same program, it's just similar enough to use. Usually when I tell them to just learn the new way or go pay 200$ at Best Buy, they stop complaining fast.
I'm interested in knowing what you can do, or can do easier, in MS Office but not in OOo?
Just so I can know what use-case I would probably not want to recommend OOo.
Oh please, I'm tired of responding to idiot trolls already tonight.
Just because it is, doesn't make that the easiest way. It's only cheaper now(if by any significant ammount) because we rape some small country for it.
Try to argue it's cheaper in Europe to make Hydrogen from gasoline than other means.
The proper research has only recently been started for the most efficient way to make Hydrogen. Some include using lenses from space to hit ocean water. Wouldn't it be great if all the ocean could be used to mine Hydrogen like that? Much more plentiful than oil I would say.
Don't condemn it before the research is done. It's not like we started out with the best gasoline.
How much crack did you smoke before you posted that? Hydrogen is easily produced compared to gasoline. You can drink its waste. You can make Hydrogen from anything really.
I would settle for alcohol, because we get most of it from corn which has many uses, and can be improved with genetic engineering. There are engines that run fast and have more HP that run on alcohol (also easily concentrated). In fact, there are convertions that you can do to most normal cars to make htme run alcohol since its combustion. It is even a liquid, so it can be pumped at stations. Its fumes aren't poison, and if made properly, you could drink it for energy, burn it for heat, use it to sterilize cuts, etc if you wrecked on a deserted wintery road. (You can also use it's properties of evaporation to keep cool if you break down in a desert, though you can't drink it for moisture. Best of all, it's renewable.
Either way, you can make your own Hydrogen or Alcohol.
No, hydrogen power is for smart adults that would rather not kill people or rape small countries or destroy the planet in order to get from point A to B. Grow up and a heart.
Yea!
:)
:)
Gotta love how quick you guys work on things... You have a great product. My only beef is really MySQL, you guys give developers, like me, who developed large applications using MySQL just to find that ACID compliance (particularly where corruption comes in) is more important than we thought an alternative. I'm still going to at least abstract the database and support other servers. I'll just use whichever database works better at the time
Thank you and your team mates for some great code. A lot of those people that love MySQL for no good reason will be using inno when they realize that there are a million things that can go wrong, and ACID compliance is the only way to ensure your database won't be corrupt. (and raid0... backups to remote locations)
Keep on inching MySQL/inno toward enterprise quality. Thanks again for your effort and code
MySQL 3.23.?? (I forgot the minor version since. approx 50)
:) I wouldn't do it any other way... if I want a transaction that requires multiple statements, begin/commit was made for that.
Check table was just fine.
Select * was fine
select * where keyfield=keyvalue was not fine
alter table t type=myisam;
alter table t type=inno;
fixed the problem until it did it again.
This was a problematic server, and it could have been because of power loss if the keys aren't part of the transaction... I don't know how inno works all that well.
inno was running on it's own partions if that matters.
autocommit = 1
I hand compiled this version of MySQL on a debian system, so my libraries/kernel may have been newer than inno.
This may just be a freak thing that only I have run in to, and only I may ever. inno was working for a long time until I put a high volume table into inno's hands as well.
Just be on a look out for anyone else who has the problem. I didn't know I was the only one. If I'm not, maybe you can find commonalities.
I agree.
:)
I've developed my last application for MySQL. Everytime the server looses power, I have to ssh into client's servers and tell them how much data they've lost (repair table). It's not a happy time, and buy a UPS is not reassuring (most have them, accidentally bumping power switches/knocking cables loose still happens).
InnoDB doesn't have this problem, but then again, it has buggy key problems on all of my servers. Sometimes it can't find a record that is there (often this is worse than just loosing the record... you can't create a duplicate). I have to periodically rebuild the index on inno, so I scrapped it too.
I've used postgreSQL before, and it seems MUCH more robust. It can be a little slower on certain queries, but I'll sleep better after my clients are ported over. I also get updatable views, custom objects, sub-selects, embedded procedures (in a variety of languages), transactions, cross table deletes/updates, and speed when I take advantage of key clustering and these other features rather than hacked solutions for sub-select. I've seen people select "delete from table a where bid=\""+b.id+"\"" from b where c=3 into outfile d; then run mysql -u user -p d
Sure vacuum could be automatic when there is a great degree of fragmentation, but those are scratches compared to the gaping holes in MySQL like ACID compliance. I've looked at version 4, and it changes the queries so much that I would have to port my app to version 4. It's best I go another route than be disappointed again.
It sure does help Oracle migrants that pgplsql is about the same as Oracle's plsql
I like the fact that there really is no good and bad from a global perspective. Everyone has some reason to be acting some way. Every character has a basic goal, and if that goal is contradictory to the main characters goal, they may be seen as evil, but it usually isn't. It's usually the means they go about to achieve these goals, like torture and murder without any second thoughts.
... disgusting really), CSI (They get the facts right more than your average investigator show, but most of it is still just jargon and statistics... is there really any kind of events of any importance occuring? If so, what makes this any better than watching a real crime show, with real crime, and real forensics).
Most shows these days are so stupid, that I pass out watching them. Examples: Tremors the series (no explanation required), Lexx (had a great show once, but the series is entirely about sex and power
The good shows get cancelled early because the average stupid person just doesn't get it. Family guy is a good example of this. It makes fun of the dumb gluton american, so it get's cancelled. Likewise, Futurama's political and social arguements are just overlooked by the average drooling couch-potato.
So what America really wants is superficial shows like "Am I Hot" or Jerry Springer or American Idol. This way they can feel better about themselves by watching other decent people get hurt. It's not that these people get hurt because they didn't try hard either. They want to see people loose because they didn't have a chance. It's always "Sorry you were born with a flat chest" or "You didn't know your wife was a stripper" or "You have a terrible voice, therefore you can't be a good person".
Violence on TV is the least of our worries in America. Children know violence is bad, they get spanked when they pull their sister's hair. But when some woman goes home crying because she's "too fat" or "doesn't have a good voice" what do you think children get out of this? Beauty magazines came first, but this second wave of superficiality has gone way beyond reasonable. You want to know why kids shoot kids? Self-esteem issues. These shows hurt MUCH worse than Mr Diesel destroying rooms full of equipment and people. These aren't real, and children understand that. But you can't tell a child "Am I Hot", "Jerry Springer", or "American Idol" isn't real, because it is. Being bullied in school in combination with the world telling you that you just aren't good enough is enough to drive anyone to not care about their future. If you don't care about your future, then shooting people that hurt you isn't a big step.
If you don't buy the self-esteem bit, how do you explain obesity from self-esteem related eating-disorders being so much more common now than in previous generations?
So... while good shows like Farscape are being cancelled, there are new shows coming out that could do a great deal of damage to society. The shows have no redeaming qualities either. Exactly what is "Married by America" supposed to show?
You think I'm a bigot about TV shows? Someone posted somewhere on here "You should respect other viewers preferences if you want people to respect yours." When your show isn't about seeing loosers going home crying because you couldn't count their ribs, maybe you could give me a lecture on bigotry, else, you need to go take it up with Mr Webster.
The satelite hackers have been using voltage to cause the same problem for a long time now. This isn't a very new idea.
If this is the best a hacker could come up with in the 5 years that critical software has been written for VM's, then I know where I should invest my time to make a secure system.
Not that I think this is the best you could come up with, just I haven't heard of many reports of Java or Lisp having security problems (MS's VM isn't really java now is it?).
and that's a good thing?
:) (assuming it saves as much info as Java does in the byte-code)
.Net issue. If the program can be converted between the languages that the CLR supports, it would be infinitely more useful. If Perl can convert between any of the million dialects that any given user will use, then it stands a chance of making it much easier for people to share perl code.
I don't know about you, but I like my languages to be pretty static. You can't really learn a language that's different everyday. Also, I don't like languages that let you do things 80 different ways. There are enough fights over where the curley braces go. Perl is not a team sport. Open source perl scripts are slightly less open than open source programs.
Now, if Parrot has only one instruction for things like "until" and "while", and someone wrote a decompiler that supported each person's own style of programming, then we may be in business
This is kind of like the whole
We could all go live closer to the poles, build dams to keep the water toward the poles, freeze water on the poles(a good nuclear winter), or drop heavy things into the deap parts of the ocean.
:)
The problem is, global warming melting the polar ice caps will cause more water to shift toward the equator, this slowing down the rotation of Earth yet more.
By the way, they are only saying that El Nino periods could have longer days right? This couldn't be a permanent thing could it? Or are the winds so strong they are breaking out of Earths gravity?
On a side note, doesn't global warming pose a much greater threat to increasing the length of the day than wind? If the polar ice caps melt, all the water will end up near the equator. Energy will need to be added to this water in order to get it up to the speed of Earth's rotation.
Mining minerals seems to me like it would cause more of an effect (since this effect would be lasting).
I thought the liberty alliance system was hardened to this by several independant implementations. Also I think they are supposed to have security inherent in the system. You create pseudo accounts that are only chargeable by certain other accounts. No middle man attacks should work because of the encryption.
... tough question. MS only wants money. DoD could want an Orwellian society. I guess I would have to go with Liberty Alliance still... if Passport became popular, MS would sell information and give it the government without a fight.
Worst case scenerio, provided that the protocol is secure, is we get one of the root sites info (like a bank) and all the bank's accounts get screwed up. But we know how anal banks are about security.
I haven't looked at the information that much, but I thought it was supposed to be pretty much PGP for online forms and accounts. It will make those things that you fear, harder to do.
As much as I liked the project, it worries me when the government gets involved. The presence of the DoD always sends my paranoia up about 5 points on a scale of 1 to 10. They have no real need for this system except to track people.
If it weren't for the Liberty Alliance Project though, you would have to trust your private information to MS(Passport), because sites in the future will require one or the other kind of verification.
Which is less evil... DoD or MS?
I like my Strat... I was just thinking about putting an ATMEL in my Fender and replace at least one of the knobs with a digital button-knob to adjust effects that I put on it's EEPROM. I just don't know what I'm going to do about a UI for now. Maybe I will use a serial terminal to control the guitar... You can do that from a handheld! If I wanted to throw another 300$ at my beloved Fender, I could put a full blown hand-held in it for processing.
... real-time streaming... didn't think so :( Maybe I could use the USB-ATMEL's and make an "Audio device" out of my guitar. With a good SB card, you can do real-time effects. I guess I should settle for a good 16bit DAC (18-24 bit, but drop the bottom bits) and just send the data over USB uncompressed. I could easily do 100Khz sampling to interpolate data.
:)
I know what you mean about the whole tube arguement. Tubes sure sound great, but I bet I could make a guitar sound identical to tube amplification by measuring frequency responce of the tube and doing my own EQ.
Anyone know of a good way to compress audio with only 10-20Mhz of power?
If I were just going to make it an audio device, I could get off the shelf USB headphones. I want to be able to record all 4 pickups seperatly. I would have to play with the pick-ups too much to actually record each string seperately. Just imagine a digital whammy bar!!! They don't get strings out of tune. You could have them do wah-wah effects as well. You could select which strings/pickups are effected. I guess I'll have to play with the pickups after all.
the problem was, I couldn't decrypt it either...
It turns out if you have a key, you can just guess at it, and eventually break it... I just went to the source of the problem... the key. If you don't have a key, you can't break it. Unfortunately, as it turns out, you can't decrypt it either.
Seriously thhough:
It probably is theoretically possible despite what you may see on here to make an unbreakable encryption. The only problem with this is that it can only be used on data less than the key size(AKA one time pad) and random data(AKA data of an unknown format). If you can accomplish either these two, I don't think anyone will be able to break it. The problem is: With a one time pad, it's pretty much the same as carrying the data to the other end; data is useless unless someone can understand it.
I've always wanted to start a cryto challenge of a crypto that had no signature and was of nearly random data. The problem is, computers are not that great at pattern matching, and won't be able to find a good pattern in your data format to begin with. This is compounded with no verification that the key you used is valid. In theory, you could get anything out of the decryption if it weren't for that pesky external signature. Remove those, and it could decrypt to just about anything the same length.
In a nutshell, if you had the perfect compression (theoretically impossible) it would be impossible to break your encryption (if you didn't have a signature or hash for verification). Now if only compression was encryption oriented (no predictable bits... thus not perfect), we would be all set. If you researched enough, you may be able to make it very hard to predict bits in compression.
Most encryption in the past has been broken by the redundancy of the data (Signatures, statistics, etc.) so that you know if you have the right key (the signature matches, the MD5 matches, or it looks like the target language). If it's impossible to know if you have decrypted the message, it's impossible to break.
The population of the US is: 265,283,783
According to the dissaster center, 180.2 people die in 100,000 in car accidents.
Is not the other 478,401 people that die in vehicular accidents in a year a bit more important than 7 astronauts in the past decade?
You should work on your priorities first because I don't think you are seeing the big picture!
(all numbers based on 1996 data)
hehe... There is always room for improvement. When there is an ECMA standard for it, it's considered a bad thing to improve.
.Net will get faster and Java will get faster. They have the same potential as far as performance goes, except MS can modify their OS to make .Net seem faster on windows. We'll see if they play fair, but we all know their track record. At least they stopped throttling the Divx codec. Programs that MS doesn't like have used 100% CPU in the past for no good reason.
That's a known bug with SUN's JVM actually... the file chooser dialog is slow.
My only point with the C/C++ arguement is how it hasn't improved as a language/standard. Java not being a traditional standard has afforded it a great oportunity to increase in usefullness.
I was not basing my comparison of the GUI speed on server side benchmarks. The Windows API is not object oriented or even good. It's a hack that makes forms draw faster at the expense of programmer time. They do this by using ID's that you pass into functions and global UI elements (seems to me you could draw on another programs form if you had an ID). They, as usual, sacrafice a good interface and security for a minimal ammount of speed. This is a compounded advantage compared to Swing with the current state of JITC. When JITC is as good as C compilers, Swing will be faster than native widgets because of the ability to inline function calls of the API.
.Net and Mono hands down on function call optimization for object oriented programs. I don't have to dig deep to deep to come up with even a rudementry arguement that .Net is slower than Java. I just want to see some claim to contrary. If it turns out faster some day, all I have to do with Java according to MS is get out their migration tools and I'll be up and running. I have no incentive to learn C# because it's not big in the market, doesn't seem to offer any advantage over any of my current choices in languages, and in a lot of cases, is worse than Java (portability, possibly even speed). If someone actually had some good evidence that .Net was faster, I might find a place for it on windows desktop clients, but I can't even find that. I have found no reason at all to even give it a second thought, and reading the books that MS shipped us for free didn't make me feel any better about it. One bashes Java on every other page for trivial things that will likely change in Java over the next few years all the while there are huge gaping problems with .Net at the moment, like you mention, portability. I'm not going to learn .Net out of boredom or the quest for ultimate geekdom, because personally, I don't see a market place for it yet, nor even a potential marketplace that it could fill any better than Java.
On the general speed of Java verses CLI, I only admit my findings as some evidence since there is no real good evidence. Sure my evidence is flawed, but I stated it out right so as to not decieve anyone. I didn't make an unsupported claim like you did. I only made a poorly supported claim. Until you can at least support your claim that the CLI is faster than Java in some way, we'll just have to go with mine.
Hell, I didn't even mention http://javalobby.org/members/jpr/methodopt.jsp because it was run by a Java shop. It clearly shows how the IBM VM beats
I don't care about ISO/ANSI/ECMA standards because by and large they mean less than I've seen from Java. There are few, if any, C++ compilers that are up to spec. Even if they were, the standard class library is too little to be usefull. There are standard text based IO streams, but you have to use some third party library for anything else you need or write your own. The end cost for developing C/C++ programs is much greater than Java because of this. These third party libraries can't really be taught in school because there are usually 3-8 different competing libraries that are all considered on equal footing in the marketplace.
Java changes quicker than C/C++ because it's not an ECMA standard. People that claim they are Java compliant must be because SUN would sue them into oblivion over trademark violations if they weren't. They make sure that developers like you and I don't get burned by some "Embrace and Extend" campaign. There is a community process in which many new ideas have been implemented and made part of Java. I really don't see that kind of activity from ECMA standards, nor do I see any way to enforce the ECMA standard on anyone. The standard is meaningless without some way of enforcing it.
I don't know... You would think with all these fast new machine's out, we would be able to run an experiment and emulate to find out how many licks it would take...
See, and most people probably thought that was off topic.
"NET is the Sun/Java 'write once, run anywhere' concept done right because it's:"
.Net web applications against broken, obfiscated J2EE implementations though. They tend to suggest that you can use 10x the LOC and still only be 2x slower. Sounds to me like Java cat run 5x more code per clock. I don't doubt the UI will be faster for .Net when you write a GUI. No faster than SWT, but faster than Swing by some ammount. .Net programs will start faster because it will be loaded at boot time like explorer(22M). Java will have this capability, and shared VM capability soon though, and most of my Java programs, with the VM, only use 11-14M of RAM.
--Oh really?
"- Language Independant (although I would agree that C# seems best suited to it for me)"
There are even LISP compilers for Java. If you haven't found what you are looking for, you just haven't looked hard enough.
"- Potentially Platform Independant (not yet, maybe not soon, but possible - well done to the Mono team)"
No it's not. Not as much as Java. Looking at the way MS treated Java (changing the core java.* libraries) I doubt it ever will be. You'll have to excuse me for looking at MS's track record to gauge their future conduct instead of fairy-tale hype told to managers to try to persuade them to buy.
"- Generally runs faster than Java on Windows ('big surprise' you say - but see how Mono goes)"
No it doesn't. As far as I can tell, MS really doesn't want to benchmark this at all. There have been no C# vs anything benchmarks. Not even the falsified for the public kind. There have been benchmarks of 2.5 Tier
1.4 is the first number...
1.4.1_01 is what I'm running.
1.4 is the major number.
1 is the minor
01 is revision.
Just so you know... I think the problems that you mention were fixed in Java 1.4... In fact, they were the major concerns of the release other than NIO and the obvious stuff. Also, non-SUN JRE's preform much better as well on the whole. IBM makes the best, but SUN caught up a lot on 1.4, and surpassed IBM in a select few cases. IBM now has a 1.4 JDK for Linux on xSeries(x86). It's only free as in beer, but it's worth toying with to get a feel of where Java is headed in the next few years.
I'm fairly sure this is a hoax memo, but even if it's not, it only talks about the implementation of Java on Solaris.
The main reason I like Java is that I won't have to do anything, and my programs will magically get faster, support 64bit processors and other architectures. Java has the potential to be faster than C. Java libraries/classes can have functions inlined at run-time. C has to be recompiled. Java can optimize for whatever processor it is running on. C has to be compiled for the least common denominator of hardware it will be running on. Java programs have an extensively tested standard API of functions to ensure backwards compatibility. In C you may have to recompile or change code whenever a new version of Windows rolls out. Java is a very well structured object oriented language compared to C or C++. Java SQL database drivers must adhere to strict SQL standards to be considered for different levels of JDBC compliance. I can write SQL that is garaunteed by the JDBC driver to work on a database, thus having true database independance. In C, each vendor implements a different subset of SQL in different ways such that you have to pick up a third party abstraction layer, or write your own, or target one database (ODBC doesn't work, even Access runs queries locally).
The only downsides to Java is: all java programs will use more memory than C programs... always! Java programs will take longer to start until a shared VM is implemented(is a JSR right now). Java will be slightly slower than C until Java has had about half as much time to develop compiler(JITC) technology that C has. Java will be slower at floating point until an API for fast system-dependant/non-IEEE floating point math is supported (This is why people claim, and are accurate to a degree, that Java isn't as fast as C at raw number crunching... This is probably the only reason as well).
Of those, the only problem that will always plague Java is large memory footprint. That is because it comes with it's own libraries and must do garbage collection.
It's appearant to anyone (like g4dget) that SUN sinks more time into the Windows JRE than anything else. The second biggest, as of 1.4, I would have to say is Linux/Mac. Solaris is the lowest on the list really. Most people that use Solaris use it for Oracle. The Java market has always been on Windows and IBM machines. IBM rolls their own, and they do a great job. Maybe they will release theirs a bit more free if their agreement with SUN will let them. I don't think they are allowed to discuss their contract with SUN because of the contract itself. At least, that's the rumor about the Java contracts that was on the net about 5 years ago.
Yeah... you just made it all clear to me. I understand it now. He wants credit for things that are going to happen in the next 10-50 years. He wants to be known as "The president that started the mission to mars project and required cars to use hydrogen power." Basically, he wants to blame everyone before him for a big mess, then in another 10 years, go down in history as the man who brought the world into the 21st century.
:) Some of it may be extremist, but to be honest, this is the most extreme situation I think America has ever been in. Just about everyone in the world has told the US to screw themselves when Bush asks for some help with Iraq. I don't think it's above some people in the government to plant evidence in Iraq to support a war effort. Bush is from Texas, and he likes his oil fresh and guns blazing. His economic policy: walk it off, then if that doesn't work, we'll shoot our way out.
He's just starting things that he has no intentions of solving or finishing. Some work will be done, but if he were in the office for the next 10-50 years (*GASP* THE HORROR!) he would abondon them. Basically, all he says is "I want cars to run on hydrogen by some date past any date I could be in office." Then if the date gets extended, he mocks the Democrats saying they slacked on the project. If it's a Republican, he comes and says he may have been a bit unrealistic.
I ask myself all the time, where would we be with Al Gore. I believe he would have used the sympathy from terrorism to help promote a closer look on the Mid-East, but I really don't think he would be going to war with Iraq. He would probably actually have a schedule that the automotive industries would have to abide by, not just say do it by then. Sadly though, I think the first Patriot Act would have been passed... probably not in it's current form, but I think it would have been restrictive.
Ralph Nader on the other hand would have angered all of Congress to the point that he couldn't get anything passed because he want's to take away their easy life style of lobbying, but MS would be in for some real trouble, because he would tell the DOJ to do their job.
I honestly don't know anyone that could have done a good job this last term, but I really think Nader would have been a jump that the government can't handle, but Gore would have been a good step in the right direction. People that argue that Gore is as bad as Bush are really sad though. If they have to argue that Gore is just as bad as Bush, then they should be out voting for the one they have to argue is as bad, not the one that they know is horrible.
And really... what did Clinton do that was so bad... I keep forgeting, was his penis elected for president, or him. What he does in his personal life is of no concern to anyone but his family. I don't buy the story about Clinton letting the FBI weaken... they knew plenty, and Bush had been in office for long enough, and he didn't think to worry about it, did he?
Do most people not realize that the economy came back after Sep 11, then it fell again. This holiday season was worse than last. The terrorists didn't blow up any more buildings. There is no excuse for it except that Bush is lousey with economics. If he gets elected(again for the first time), I'm packing. I may not be able to avoid the flushing of the economy by leaving, but at least I won't be in the center of the spiral.
Well, that's my rant