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Using Memory Errors to Attack a Virtual Machine

gillus writes "A very cool scientific paper from Appel and Govindavajhala that explains how virtual machines like java or .Net can be exploited. How? Quite simple, bomb your DRAM chip with X-rays... or more simply with 50-watt spotlight, as the authors demonstrate. Definitively worth a read!"

247 comments

  1. This just in! by G-funk · · Score: 4, Funny

    Reports are sketchy at present, but we're being led to believe that it's easy to compromise a machine to which you have physical access!

    Film at 11.

    --
    Send lawyers, guns, and money!
    1. Re:This just in! by smallpaul · · Score: 5, Informative

      Reports are sketchy at present, but we're being led to believe that it's easy to compromise a machine to which you have physical access!

      Bet you didn't even read the abstract. Here's the relevant bit:

      Our attack is particularly relevant against smart cards or tamper-resistant computers, where the user has physical access (to the outside of the computer) and can use various means to induce faults; we have successfully used heat.

    2. Re:This just in! by shird · · Score: 1, Funny

      But as the report says - its also applicable in situations where you don't actually have physical access - x-rays can travel through various materials, which may be blocking your otherwise 'physical access'. Thus, being able to compromise a system 'remotely' as it were, is of significance.

      --
      I.O.U One Sig.
    3. Re:This just in! by Com2Kid · · Score: 3, Redundant

      If I can drag in a machine capable of producing sufficient x-rays to within range of the computer.

      Well fuck it, I can just get a screw driver and OPEN the mofo.

      It has ALREADY been proven that no matter how hard something is protected / encrypted / etc, given enough time (and resources!) it will ALWAYS be possible to break though whatever protection measures are in the way. The ONLY 100% secure computing environment is a

      Well heck, actualy there ISN'T one, because even a keyboard going into a big grey locked steel box can have its wires taped so when an authorized user DOES use it the applicable passwords can be captured.

      Basicaly we are all fucked. The good news is that the orgy WILL be broadcast on the playboy channel for only 39.95.

    4. Re:This just in! by Com2Kid · · Score: 3, Insightful
      • Our attack is particularly relevant against smart cards or tamper-resistant computers, where the user has physical access (to the outside of the computer) and can use various means to induce faults; we have successfully used heat.


      If somebody intent on breaking through the smart card's security has access to the smart card, then sooner or later the security WILL be broken. Encrypting data is NOT a foolproof way to keep things safe, though having the security measures last a dozen or so years IS a rather safe second bet. :)

    5. Re:This just in! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What this could lead to, if it works and ends up working well, is running other processes in a machine that do end up causing memory errors. far fetched? probably, but all exploits involve a range of small weaknesses (except Windows ones, as Windows is one large weakness).

      Take a look at core memory. Memory access there, when random, was fine. Go looking continually at one row of cores and bam - your wire heats up. Go continually looking at the one single core (read or write) and it was possible to effectively destroy your memory plane.

      One commodore 64 demo program (just a few POKE statements) would lock up a machine after being run, and the computer would only turn on again after sitting without power for hours. A small bug in a chip is all that took. It may not be an exploit but perhaps one of the consumer-computing worlds first 'denial of service' hacks.

      This just looks harmless when taken on its own. You can't know what other ways to exploit hardware will appear in the future, if the problems here aren't addressed.

    6. Re:This just in! by afidel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There's nothing stopping you from accessing smartcards if you are determined enough and don't care about the physical state of the chip afterwards, just look at the guy who broke MS's xbox code, one of the steps he used was to etch away the chip covering to get at the actual chip. Now this attack may work better if you are a spy who wants to steal an access card, get the data off and return the card, but for most attacks the brute force method works almost as well.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    7. Re:This just in! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or being more inventive, running this on several machines in a data centre and fucking with the aircon. If you're not able to reach the machines themselves but can kill off the aircon to a room and delay reaction to the alarms that'll notify whoever-fixes-that-stuff to fix-that-stuff, then you have overheating machines galore, and have a chance of extracting data.

      It's not a sure thing, just one more possible hacktool.

    8. Re:This just in! by anubi · · Score: 4, Interesting
      "Our attack is particularly relevant against smart cards or tamper-resistant computers, where the user has physical access (to the outside of the computer) and can use various means to induce faults; we have successfully used heat."
      I would imagine that nasty EMI spikes you may couple to the inside of the box, or medical radioactive sources would work too.

      Just a guess, but I have sure had my share of EMI and radiation induced problems.

      --
      "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]

    9. Re:This just in! by lord+sibn · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Page 7, Paragraph 3:

      "To attack machines without physical access, the attacker can rely on natural memory errors."

      This paper showed some means an attacker could physically cause a memory error, but it never said that such intervention was required to stage the attack. My guess is that this would be most useful with those "low load" ram chips that ran on slashdot a while back.

    10. Re:This just in! by buffer-overflowed · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      I can't read the abstract, I'm currently quite inebriated at the moment and can't figure out how to under Linux.

      Somebody help me! Or start posting stuff in HTML or something everyone can read.

      Is that too much to ask!? Oh what a world what a world!

      --
      The key to the enjoyment of pop music is to replace any instance of "love" with "C.H.U.D."
    11. Re:This just in! by You're+All+Wrong · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Didn't you notice that the talks/ directory serves a page which is:
      "
      HTML composed using mozilla 0.9.9 on a Redhat Linux 8.0 machine. Best viewed in any browser
      "

      So _obviously_ the guy's interested in making sure that _everyone_ can read his work. It's just a shame that he seemed to forget that when writing up all his work. Duh!

      Anyway, the Powerpoint file viewer that I use under linux is called "strings". Amazingly it sometimes even works!

      YAW.

      --
      Your head of state is a corrupt weasel, I hope you're happy.
    12. Re:This just in! by mentin · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Well, there are already many error-induction attacks agains smart cards (some references in the article), that don't involve JVM running untrusted code.

      So if I can break smart card event if is does not run any my [untrusted] code, who cares about attack to smart card that allows to run untrusted code? Besides, I've never seen any smartcard that actually does this stupid thing.

      A better target for attack may be a server at a nuclear reactor facility that has natural high rate of memory failures :)

      --
      MSDOS: 20+ years without remote hole in the default install
    13. Re:This just in! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
      Our attack is particularly relevant against smart cards or tamper-resistant computers, where the user has physical access (to the outside of the computer) and can use various means to induce faults; we have successfully used heat.

      Okay, but one still needs to be able to get their classes loaded into the VM. Think that makes the situations where this exploit is usable /meaningful unlikely. ( A tamper resistant machine that lets you load code onto it isn't really tamper resistant. ;) ) FWIW dynamic class loading is listed under as an unsupported feature in the Java Card spec ( jcvm ) -- Regards, d

    14. Re:This just in! by arvindn · · Score: 4, Informative
      If somebody intent on breaking through the smart card's security has access to the smart card, then sooner or later the security WILL be broken.
      Get a clue. The whole point of a smart card is to keep the data safe even in the event of physical tampering. For this purpose, the processor of a smart card is enclosed in a black box which will chemically self-destruct if you try to tamper with it. Much research on smart cards goes into ensuring that security can not be broken in spite of physical access.

      Some pointers:

    15. Re:This just in! by Sunnan · · Score: 1

      Try xpdf or gv for the pdf.

      I usually use ppthtml for ppt-files but it's not perfect.

      One of my friends has OpenOffice which usually deals pretty well with them.

    16. Re:This just in! by You're+All+Wrong · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "One commodore 64 demo program (just a few POKE statements)..."

      You're not thinking of the Commodore PET "urban legend" are you?
      C64 != PET. PET != C64. Don't let the big long "Commodore" word confuse you.

      For more info on the blow-up-your-PET story, try:
      http://www.softwolves.pp.se/misc/arkiv/cbm-h ackers /1/1505.html

      YAW.

      --
      Your head of state is a corrupt weasel, I hope you're happy.
    17. Re:This just in! by Com2Kid · · Score: 3, Interesting
      • Get a clue. The whole point of a smart card is to keep the data safe even in the event of physical tampering. For this purpose, the processor of a smart card is enclosed in a black box which will chemically self-destruct if you try to tamper with it. Much research on smart cards goes into ensuring that security can not be broken in spite of physical access.


      Sorry, I am used to seeing regular static memory chips marketed as being "smart cards", I did not realize that there was an actual secure version of the things. Buzzwords got to me. ^_^

      Any encryption can still be broken through though brute force.

      Hmm, from the first site you linked to;

      • Entertainment: Most DSS dishes in the U.S. have smart cards.

      ----http://smartcard.nist.gov/faq.html

      Yah, and we all know how secure those are! Yup, DSS security has never been bypassed once! ;)
    18. Re:This just in! by DancingSword · · Score: 1

      or...

      if a fan / cooling-subsystem was -ahem- failing in the machine, for any reason, or
      there was a .. power-'glitch' .. thereby increasing the erors in it, or
      there was some kind of electromagnetic pulse that induced erors in the electronics in that place/area, or

      if one stuck a bit of ionizing-material ( low-grade radioactive material ) somewhere among the machine where it'd create increase-of eror-probability

      organized wrong would very likely use this sort of thing to grab/enforce leverage/authority...

      Electronic error plus already-placed opportunistic code is now proven to break assumed-safety, and that is a story.

      --
      Messages to/for me ( in me journal )
    19. Re:This just in! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Get a clue. The Cambridge working group and Becroft have met with incredible success compromising smart cards - so far, not one has held up. Ever.

    20. Re:This just in! by ThatMadeNoSense · · Score: 0

      you're typing skills are amazing for being drunk

      That made no sense.

    21. Re:This just in! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wahoo!

      Your score: 20/20

      You took 115 seconds

    22. Re:This just in! by Large+Green+Mallard · · Score: 3, Informative

      Smart Cards will protect themselves to some extent, but the oft quoted voltage draw analysys is something they can't protect against..

      What you really need for a physically secure device is an IBM 4758 CryptoCard.. of course, for it to be useful, you need it protected against key recovery attacks.

    23. Re:This just in! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Basicaly we are all fucked. The good news is that
      > the orgy WILL be broadcast on the playboy channel
      > for only 39.95.

      Unless, of course, you break the protection on the cable box...

    24. Re:This just in! by SmackCrackandPot · · Score: 1

      Not unless you use a wireless keyboard with encrypted infra-red/RF communication.

    25. Re:This just in! by SmackCrackandPot · · Score: 2, Funny

      If you wait long enough, then some day a cosmic ray will strike a computer system at exactly the same time as your are entering the root password. The result ionization will cause the compare function to return a match, and you will gain access!

    26. Re:This just in! by plugger · · Score: 1

      OpenOffice.org opened the Powerpoint presentation, Acrobat Reader dealt with the pdf writeup.

    27. Re:This just in! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      maybe you should read the parent post to the comment then.

      Get it now? Don't hurt yourself.

    28. Re:This just in! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think this article proves the point of the previous poster.

      Maybe you should try and be less hostile sometime.

      Smartcards will never ever be perfect, as they can not be updated after manufacture. When a new attack is developed all the previous smartcards become vulnerable.

    29. Re:This just in! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The vocabulary test, while fun, has a problem with providing multiple good answers, yet not scoring them all as true.

      hostility
      a) hatred
      b) negative reaction
      c) hostile feeling or intent
      d) freedom from narrow limitations
      e) defensive mound of earth
      Correct answer: a
      Your answer: c
      Your answer is incorrect

      The most correct answer is c. Check the dictionary:

      hostility

      n 1: a hostile (very unfriendly) disposition; "he could not conceal his hostility" [syn: ill will] 2: a state of deep-seated ill-will [syn: enmity, antagonism] 3: the feeling of a hostile person; "he could no longer contain his hostility" [syn: enmity, ill will] 4: violent action that is hostile and usually unprovoked [syn: aggression] 5: acts of overt warfare; "the outbreak of hostilities"

      Otherwise, not bad. 14/20. I know it's not your fault as you're just using someone else's database, but hey, just mentioning. What dictionary did the answers come from, anyways?

    30. Re:This just in! by shepd · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >What you really need for a physically secure device is an IBM 4758 CryptoCard.. of course, for it to be useful, you need it protected against key recovery attacks.

      That card still isn't invulnerable against being picked apart by electron scannining micrographs and other handy (expensive) physical analysis.

      You might consider this impractical, but this is exactly how certain digital TV services in Europe has competed, by hacking each other's cards at any expense.

      The only true way to have a secure system is to make it two way, or use a one time pad. That way they need to break into the uplink facility as well as into a consumer receiver...

      --
      If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
    31. Re:This just in! by br0ck · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If that doesn't work, Adobe has an online converter you can use to view the pdf as html.

    32. Re:This just in! by omnirealm · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Any encryption can still be broken through though brute force.

      This is simply not true. One-time pads are 100% unbreakable, and they will always be unbreakable (at least mathematically speaking), no matter how sophisticated technology gets in the future. For those who are unfamiliar with the concept, a one-time pad is a cryptographically random string of 1's and 0's, which is at least of the same length of the message itself. Two parties have a secure channel in which to exchange these pads; for example, if Alice and Bob wish to use one-time pads, Alice can generate a list of 10,000 cryptographically random strings, put them in a suitcase that is handcuffed to her wrist, and deliver them to Bob in person. Bob and Alice then have a set of one-time pads that they can use for all future communication. Each time they encrypt a message with one of the pads, they discard the pad and never use it again. Because the pad is at least the length of any messages they might pass back and forth, there is no way to analyze the encrypted message for patterns. It is mathematically impossible. You could easily come up strings of 1's and 0's that would ``decrypt'' the message into anything, be it passages from the Bible, or Ogg Vorbis encoded music. You would have no idea which set of 1's and 0's produced the actual original message. This is truly unbreakable encryption on a mathematical level.

      Most companies claiming that their encryption is ``unbreakable'' are using one-time pads; the problem is reduced to finding a secure channel of communications in which to transmit those pads. This is usually not a feasible assumption, which is why we all prefer using, for example, Diffie-Hellman key exchange, which depends on the difficulty of math involving discrete logarithms. The encryption we now use is breakable, but it is hard enough to break that it is generally considered secure.

      --
      An unjust law is no law at all. - St. Augustine
    33. Re:This just in! by dillon_rinker · · Score: 1

      The problem with the one-time pad is that it is completely impractical. Empirical evidence shows that it one-time pads are actually LESS secure than other encryption schemes. The pads are intercepted or copied when they are delivered from place to place or are reused because a message had to be sent but the new pads had not yet arrived. The mathematical perfection of a one-time pad is kinda nifty, but is about as useful as postulating a spherical cow in a mathematical study to improve dairy production.

    34. Re:This just in! by IXI · · Score: 1

      Though I agree in general I'd rather say "breaking security gets *very* expensive" instead of "not be broken".

      --
      He saw some dirty arabs and fired. Too bad it was just some friendly kurds, BBC reporters and his fellow cowboys.
    35. Re:This just in! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone that actually read the article? And got the point of it? You're new to slashdot, aren't you?

    36. Re:This just in! by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sure you can protect yourself from differential power analysis, or whatever it's called. You can design logic gates that draw the same power whatever. Or you can add extra logic that masks other activity. You can design algorithms that draw power in exactly the same power whatever the input, possibly performing unnecessary dummy steps. There are lots of defenses.

      --
      Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
    37. Re:This just in! by shimmin · · Score: 1

      Yes; there is a defense against differential power analysis. You incorporate a capacitor into the card's interface into the power supply, thereby leveling the power drawn.

    38. Re:This just in! by rjh · · Score: 4, Informative

      Any encryption can still be broken through though brute force

      <sigh> You know, I answered just this same question yesterday... </sigh>

      As a thermodynamic minimum it takes 4.4 * 10**-26 joules to set a bit. (Well, it takes that much to erase one bit of information. But that's quibbling.) So multiply that by 256, for the number of bits in an AES key, and you get 1.1 * 10**-23 joules to store a key.

      Now multiply this by 2**255, which is the number of AES keys you'd have to try to break it by brute force (on average). You get 6.4 * 10**53 joules of energy needed.

      The total annual energy output of the Sun is on the order of 10**34 joules. Multiply that by 10**10 to compute the total energy release over the Sun's entire lifespan (yes, this is a nasty kludge of an estimate, I know the Sun's energy output varies) and you get 10**44 joules of energy.

      Which means you've only exhausted one billionth of the damn keyspace.

      No, you can't break any encryption through brute force. There just isn't enough energy in the universe to do it, even positing thermodynamically-perfect computers operating at 3.2K.

    39. Re:This just in! by bluephone · · Score: 1
      While others have pointed out how you've obviously not read the linked article, I'll ask this:

      How do you get physical access to a virtual machine?

      --
      jX [ Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler. - Einstein ]
    40. Re:This just in! by Chester+K · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Two parties have a secure channel in which to exchange these pads.

      OTP is mathematically 100% secure, but not practically.

      • The whole point of encryption is to make secure an otherwise unsecure channel of communication. If you have a secure channel in the first place (which you need to exchange pads with OTP), then why not just send the data you want to communicate through that channel and do away with encryption altogether?
      • Someone can intercept your pads and you'd never know. OTP is extremely vulnerable to a man-in-the-middle attack.
      • Your pads themselves may be attackable. In the extreme case, a pad comprised entirely of NULs can be XORed against your sourcetext to produce cyphertext, and that's OTP, but that doesn't mean it's secured. Any pad generated in a reproducable manner is susceptable to crypto analysis.
      • Empirical evidence suggests that the end points of a communication are just as vulnerable to compromise as the communication channel. If your message is decrypted and displayed on a non TEMPEST compliant display, then all your security was for naught.


      A couple of these problems are constant no matter what type of cypher you use, but some of them are solved by other forms of encryption; but they fit the opposite criteria: they are not mathmatically 100% secure, but they can be practically secure.
      --

      NO CARRIER
    41. Re:This just in! by j3110 · · Score: 1

      The satelite hackers have been using voltage to cause the same problem for a long time now. This isn't a very new idea.

      If this is the best a hacker could come up with in the 5 years that critical software has been written for VM's, then I know where I should invest my time to make a secure system.

      Not that I think this is the best you could come up with, just I haven't heard of many reports of Java or Lisp having security problems (MS's VM isn't really java now is it?).

      --
      Karma Clown
    42. Re:This just in! by daveq · · Score: 1

      Somebody mod this up. How do you inject the malicious code into a smart card? Bottom line: you can't.

    43. Re:This just in! by Cramer · · Score: 1

      Ah! I'm glad someone else remembers that joke.

      And it's a warp 5 engine... "on paper".

    44. Re:This just in! by bobbozzo · · Score: 1

      So does Google.

      --
      Nothing to see here; Move along.
    45. Re:This just in! by zcat_NZ · · Score: 1

      Capacitors take up space; it'd be much easier to design a power supply on the card which ALWAYS draws the same amount of power (slightly more than the maximum you'd expect the chip to use) and dumps any excess power into a 'dummy load'.

      This is similar to the concept of sending junk data over your encrypted channel when it's not in use, to foil traffic analysis.

      --
      455fe10422ca29c4933f95052b792ab2
    46. Re:This just in! by xiitone · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >Most companies claiming that their encryption is >``unbreakable'' are using one-time pads;
      and most of these snake oil salesman are using algorithmic "random" number generation. There's two delicate parts of one time pads-distributing the pad , and your pad generation.

      --
      Elegance is for tailors. -A. Einstein
    47. Re:This just in! by br0ck · · Score: 1

      True, but only for pages that have been indexed. Since Google does a better job formatting, it would be great if they had a conversion that you could do on demand. I've used the Adobe utility a number of times on small scientific sites that aren't fully indexed.

    48. Re:This just in! by dachshund · · Score: 1
      The problem with the one-time pad is that it is completely impractical. Empirical evidence shows that it one-time pads are actually LESS secure than other encryption schemes.

      Depends how the one-time pad is distributed. Quantum-entangled particles can be used to distribute OTPs that are (at least theoretically) impossible to intercept.

    49. Re:This just in! by dachshund · · Score: 1
      If you have a secure channel in the first place (which you need to exchange pads with OTP), then why not just send the data you want to communicate through that channel and do away with encryption altogether?

      Because that secure channel might not be available when you want to transmit. An armed courier could be considered a relatively secure channel for transmitting messages, but when you really needed to transmit a message quickly it might not be fast enough. So you'd send your OTP through the secure channel, and use that to create another secure channel on-demand.

      Empirical evidence suggests that the end points of a communication are just as vulnerable to compromise as the communication channel. If your message is decrypted and displayed on a non TEMPEST compliant display, then all your security was for naught.

      Same goes for any type of cryptosystem. None are absolutely unbreakable, and the parent poster didn't claim that.

    50. Re:This just in! by SuperLiquidSex · · Score: 1

      the you just record/playback the relevant portion

      --
      Oops....you'll know what I'm talkin about in a bit.
    51. Re:This just in! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are they from clear cases?

    52. Re:This just in! by Ex-MislTech · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Great the random grammar nazi's are at it again.

      Bon(e) Appetit ...

      --
      google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
    53. Re:This just in! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He didn't say it was a practical algorithm, just that it was unbreakable.

    54. Re:This just in! by smallpaul · · Score: 1

      Well, there are already many error-induction attacks agains smart cards (some references in the article), that don't involve JVM running untrusted code.



      Great. How do you take advantage of them? The published hack allows you to take over the security manager of the VM and become essentially "god" on the smartcard. So on the one hand you could induce an error on the card to invalidate the money on it (useless) or on the other hand you could induce an error that allows you to do anything you want, including duplicating or precisely mutating the data on the card. I know which ability I would rather have.



      So if I can break smart card event if is does not run any my [untrusted] code, who cares about attack to smart card that allows to run untrusted code?



      "Break" is one thing. "Use" is another.



      Besides, I've never seen any smartcard that actually does this stupid thing.



      Good for you. If they exist (they do) and they are being promoted/advertised (they are) then their security considerations are relevant.



      A better target for attack may be a server at a nuclear reactor facility that has natural high rate of memory failures :)



      A paper on that might also be interesting.


    55. Re:This just in! by tigersha · · Score: 1

      Well, at least you did not do the Power/ENergy thing this time :)

      Very cool argument though. I have never heard it before your previous posting. Just an interesting question: That number you used to indicate the minimum amount of energy to flip (or reset) a bit. Any references on that? I am not a big expert on Thermodynamics, but why is there a minimum energy involved?

      Oh, and since you seem to be the resident expert, what is your opinion on the security of AES, in particular of Rijndael in comparison to Blowfish and Serpent?

      --
      The dangers of excessive individualism are nothing compared to the oppressiveness of excessive collectivism
    56. Re:This just in! by rjh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      at least you did not do the Power/ENergy thing this time

      Make one little mistake, they never let you forget it. :)

      Just an interesting question: That number you used to indicate the minimum amount of energy to flip (or reset) a bit. Any references on that?

      Sure. The Boltzmann Constant, 1.38 * 10**-23 joules per Kelvin, is the fundamental relationship between temperature and energy. You can think of it as, "this is a quanta of energy at a given temperature". (It's not, and physics majors the world over are now marching on my house with pitchforks and torches. But I don't have time to explain fully.) So if you're running your computer at 3.2K, the ambient temperature of the universe, you can think of the minimum energy as being 4.4 * 10**-23 J. (I may have listed it earlier as 4.4 * 10**-26 J; if I did, I was misremembering the Boltzmann constant.)

      So your chips require a certain amount of energy to set each bit (really, to erase information in each bit--but that's splitting hairs at this point), and that energy can't be below 4.4 * 10**-23 joules.

      (Yes, you could drop the temperature of the computer to a few nanokelvins, and thus drop the energy required to set the bits... but then you'd have to supply extra energy to run the heat pump, bringing the total cost back up.)

      what is your opinion on the security of AES, in particular of Rijndael in comparison to Blowfish and Serpent?

      First, my cryptanalysis is rusty: I know enough to follow the papers, but I'm absolutely not on the cutting-edge of research. That said, I'm not especially fond of any of the AES candidates, not at this point in time. AES/Rijndael looks good, but it doesn't have much safety margin in it. Already we're seeing cryptanalytic results against it--I'm not going to say attacks, but ... there's some interesting research coming out. Nobody knows if it'll lead to an attack.

      I don't know enough about Serpent to make an informed statement about the cryptanalytic results against it. I stopped following Serpent after Rijndael was selected for AES. I vaguely recall some of the latest AES research also applies to Serpent, but... check that one before you rely on it.

      Re: Blowfish... I'm damn fond of the fish. It's been out for just a little under a decade, with no significant cryptanalytic results to it. With just a few equivocations, I'd actually recommend it above 3DES. 3DES has a much longer history of turning brilliant cryptanalysts into burned-out alcoholic wrecks, but... DES is a very complex algorithm. It's so complex that it's damnably hard to implement DES right. (I know; I've had to code 3DES on multiple occasions. I've put coworkers on notice that I refuse to do it again.) But Blowfish is extremely sexy, so much so that it can be succinctly described in about 50 lines of LISP. So on the grounds that Blowfish has an impressive cryptanalytic record, and is far simpler to implement correctly... I'd actually recommend Blowfish as my favorite cipher today.

    57. Re:This just in! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      You're assuming intelligence cannot self-organise and choose an optimum path in random data. You're also assuming that intelligence cannot be used to optimise a process based on randomness.



      These are both fatal assumptions.

    58. Re:This just in! by mentin · · Score: 1

      Good for you. If they exist (they do) and they are being promoted/advertised (they are) then their security considerations are relevant.

      I would like to see a reference. I saw couple of smart cards that can be programmed in Java (AMEX Blue is one example), but Java is used there just for its portability and simplicity of programming. All Java code-based security features are not used at all (and probably not implemented). I have not heard of and can't imagine any useful application of a smart card that allows downloading untrusted code.

      If you know any, please post a link. "They do" would not work

      --
      MSDOS: 20+ years without remote hole in the default install
    59. Re:This just in! by smallpaul · · Score: 1

      It would have only taken two minutes of research for you to find it yourself: There are several unique benefits of the Java Card technology, such as: Dynamic- New applications can be installed securely after a card has been issued, providing card issuers with the ability to dynamically respond to their customer's changing needs.

      That's how Sun is advertising Java Smart Cards. Personally, I'm glad somebody is investigating their claims.

    60. Re:This just in! by asparian · · Score: 1

      Are we paying our educational institutions to re-invent the wheel every five years? Some variant of the "cosmic-ray-attack" comes around at a frequency of 5-yrs-2months. About the time the new PhD students have to 'make something up that has not been done before.' We all know that if you subject hardware to environments outside their operational limits then something weird is going to happen. For example: Bit errors can also be induced in a memory chip with a machete and glue gun used in a 3 to 2 ratio. Solution: There is a simple solution to the problem! Use three 'machines' all running the same code with a fourth checking the state of the other three is always the same. Of course the fourth machine is vulnerable so you must set up three of these with each checking another three machines and so on and so on. This of course will take the entire computing power of the universe. A second solution is the ban the sale of machetes and glue-guns. Alternatively, use the machete to cut off the hands of students or use the glue-gun to glue their hands together and prevent them from writing such drivel.

    61. Re:This just in! by mentin · · Score: 1
      The only thing that I found is bunch of Sun ads plus some articles about "Benefits Java offers on smart cards". Turned out that as I said, the main benefit advetised is "write once, run anywhere", not the ability to run untrusted code.

      The most interesting discovery is "Java Card API insists that any applet be cryptographically signed by the card issuer". Basically, it sais that if I issued a card, it will only allow to run application I approve. That is too far from the running untrusted applets, discussed in the article.

      --
      MSDOS: 20+ years without remote hole in the default install
  2. This attack doesn't look very effective by saskboy · · Score: 1

    The pie chart in the article suggests that the exploit can only take place about 30% of the time the attack is used. It is more likely that the memory error will go undetected by the hack. If the attack can be tried again, and again, and again, I suppose it would work.

    --
    Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
    1. Re:This attack doesn't look very effective by rune2 · · Score: 1

      And if you think Xrays screw it up try an EMP!

    2. Re:This attack doesn't look very effective by czarneki · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Um... no. The paper states that if a single-bit error can be induced, then the probability that this single-bit error will then allow the exploiting program to execute arbirary code (as opposed to causing the OS or the VM to crash, etc) is 70%.

      So, keep in mind that there are two components to this exploit: 1) writing a program that takes advantage of single-bit errors to execute arbitrary code, and 2) wait for cosmic rays or direct some radiation yourself at the hardware to induce soft errors. The effectiveness depends largely on how quickly/reliably you can induce such errors w/out crashing the machine in the process.

      Maybe the techniques for programming the exploit program described here are well known to more experienced programmers, but I found the article extremely interesting and enlightening. I've been taught for years about the superiority of Java's type system as a security measure, and I know that a lot of theoretical work and proofs have been done to show that Java's type system is secure, but this exploit manages to get around the type safety with such a simple trick that I'm kicking myself for not having seen it myself. It's almost elegant, the way they get it done.

    3. Re:This attack doesn't look very effective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Elegant? They're cooking a computer with frickin' heat lamp!

    4. Re:This attack doesn't look very effective by TheLastUser · · Score: 1

      1. Use ECC ram and the attck is ineffective. Guess there should be more thought to the server selection than the $/TPC-C stat.

      2. If someone has the ability to upload and run code in my server VM, then its game over anyway, so I don't see the need to "heat the ram" to circumvent the type checking. Kind of makes you think about the use of distributed objects, soap, etc. though.

    5. Re:This attack doesn't look very effective by Izmunuti · · Score: 1

      "Maybe the techniques for programming the exploit program described here are well known to more experienced programmers, but I found the article extremely interesting and enlightening."

      Yes, very interesting. Yet another reason for PCs and Macs to start using ECC memory standard.

      Their implementation (carefully filling memory with objects of one type that, if a bit error occurs, can allow access to an arbitrary address) reminded me of an old game called "Core Wars" for some reason. In that game, two programs would duke it out trying to corrupt each other in simulated memory space. Anybody remember that game?

      Iz

    6. Re:This attack doesn't look very effective by Thud457 · · Score: 1

      They should call it "the Big Mac attack"!

      --

      the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

    7. Re:This attack doesn't look very effective by bigsteve@dstc · · Score: 1
      I've been taught for years about the superiority of Java's type system as a security measure, and I know that a lot of theoretical work and proofs have been done to show that Java's type system is secure, but this exploit manages to get around the type safety with such a simple trick that I'm kicking myself for not having seen it myself. It's almost elegant, the way they get it done.

      This illustrates a number of things to me:

      • It is unwise to rely on just one mechanism for security.
      • It is (IMO) unwise to rely on type safety for security. If a type safety breach can be found, this inevitably leads to a new mode of security attack.
      • Java (and .Net) do not represent the end-point for research into virtual machines.
  3. seriously by randyest · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Funny to see this here -- I (and Sun) know all too well about this phenomenon, but I am bound to relative secrecy by NDA.

    So, I can't share my team's research results that clearly show that this is a bigger problem than most raders probably realize. Nor can I share the steps (advanced ECC, logic-BIST, etc) we're taking to prevent this before it gets well-known enough to be a problem.

    But I can say: this is indeed a scoop, way to go ./!

    --
    everything in moderation
    1. Re:seriously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Fascinating. That is... fascinating that people actually modded you up. Before too many moderators mod you up... tell us why ECC is not sufficient for single bit errors as shown in the attacks in this presentation. Also what does BIST have to do with recovering from bit flips in otherwise perfectly functional chips?

      I'm not going too worry to much about this even though all of /. knows now because if someone has physical access to your system and is shining a 50W spotlight directly on your RAM, you've got other serious issues.

    2. Re:seriously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Holy crap he signed an NDA! Mod him up more! He has more nothings to say!

  4. the implications!! by kaworu-sama · · Score: 5, Funny

    Now when I benchmark my computer using the punch-the-monkey java applet using a 50 watt spotlight, I'll have to be more careful!

  5. Rather useless because of a few points by bloodbob · · Score: 1, Interesting

    If we have physical access or full system access why not just change the JVM code letting us do whatever we want? and if u just wanna stop it and you have full privildges why not just shut the system down? and if we got physical access why not just pull the power plug? This would be usefull if it didn't need full access or physical access.

    1. Re:Rather useless because of a few points by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do you get access to the VM running in your smartcard to change it in the first place?

    2. Re:Rather useless because of a few points by bloodbob · · Score: 1

      using similar equipment to AFM or TSM

  6. A quick workaround... by AnriL · · Score: 5, Funny

    Just overclock your tamper-resistant machine to the bleeding edge of running at maximum MHz you can get. Tweak the speed to the point that the body heat emitted by regular users will not overheat the CPU, but anyone approaching the machine with a 50 Watt bulb would fry the machine before gaining access to data.

    However, now you get a denial of service attack, but hey, it's better than information disclosure or arbitrary code execution. :-)

    1. Re:A quick workaround... by jetmarc · · Score: 1

      Most smartcards have tamper sensors, which include the clock line. You can't overclock a smartcard (significantly) because it will detect it and simply refuse to operate. BTW, you can't underclock it either (to simplify power analysis, or "single step" the card), this is also detected by most cards..

    2. Re:A quick workaround... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Dude,

      Are you trying to overclock Java again?

  7. Larry Wall (up against the wall) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The code also assumes that it's difficult to misspell "a" or "b". :-)
    Larry Wall in <199710221731.KAA24396@wall.org>


    Oh God suck me you mallards. Oh ducks, oh quack, jesus, please do me with your beak, oh quack, let me rub those feathers, oh please.

  8. *.ppt by hswerdfe · · Score: 1, Redundant

    Ahhh....... Power Point How I Hate it.....

    Open office did a decent job on it though

    --
    --meh--
    1. Re:*.ppt by DaneelGiskard · · Score: 1

      doh...my internet explorer just crashed really violently while trying to open it...figures... ;)

    2. Re:*.ppt by metlin · · Score: 4, Informative

      A non-animated PDF version here.

      Link is valid for 7 days :-)

    3. Re:*.ppt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      I loaded the .ppt into my java port of Power point.

      Then as soon as I turned on my 50 watt reading lamp to set the atmosphere, It all crashed ?

  9. End of Slashdot by MegaFur · · Score: 5, Funny

    Oh great, it must be the Apocolypse or something. They actually posted a *link* to a *PowerPoint* document in a Slashdot article! Worse yet, no one seems concerned.

    --
    Furry cows moo and decompress.
    1. Re:End of Slashdot by geo_2677 · · Score: 1

      Well I am concerned. How did a M$ Powerpoint doc. come on /. I thought slashdotters liked ooimpress more than M$ "Poorpoint"

    2. Re:End of Slashdot by error0x100 · · Score: 5, Funny

      They actually posted a *link* to a *PowerPoint* document in a Slashdot article! Worse yet, no one seems concerned.

      Noone reads the articles, so they probably didn't even notice. OK, *I* didn't notice.

    3. Re:End of Slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry, most slashdotters are using IE anyway

    4. Re:End of Slashdot by Jason+O'Neil · · Score: 1

      it works fine in ooimpress, but the point isn't compatibility. It has those wonderful dissolve animations all through it!!!

    5. Re:End of Slashdot by Com2Kid · · Score: 1
      • Don't worry, most slashdotters are using IE anyway


      So? I am using IE and the PPT file opened in OpenOffice. I am not paying the Word Tax, hell no.
    6. Re:End of Slashdot by HerbieStone · · Score: 0

      My OpenOffice 1.0.2 had no problem with the document. So my need of uproar did dimish :P

    7. Re:End of Slashdot by plugger · · Score: 1

      Or maybe they just had OpenOffice installed.

    8. Re:End of Slashdot by zulux · · Score: 3, Informative


      Just to infoome people who may not know:

      The file loads just fine in OpenOffice.

      OpenOffice is available free (beer and speech) at OpenOffice.org for Windows, Linux, MAC OS X, FreeBSD and Solaris.

      I'm sure Apple's Keynote works as well.

      --

      Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.

    9. Re:End of Slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0



      Google

    10. Re:End of Slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True, but it is still jarring to have a link directly to a non-html file. He could have at least pointed it out in the text...

  10. New nifty trick for a hacker book by bluelan · · Score: 3, Interesting
    You wouldn't necessarily need physical access to the machine itself. It might be possible to perform this exploit by gaining access to a machine's air conditioning unit and disabling it at an inconvenient time. That could raise heat enough to cause RAM performance to degrade and make the success of the exploit more likely.

    If the air conditioner went out at midnight, most system administrators wouldn't know until the morning.

    --

    I used to be a narrator for bad mimes. (wright)

    1. Re:New nifty trick for a hacker book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good thinking. There are all kinds of other ways to help this exploit along. Say you have some dumbshit on the 'inside' who wishes to help but has bugger-all tech knowhow

      Get them to tape up the case fan inlet/outlet

      Get them to turn off the aircon

      Have them hit the machine with a baseball bat if it help

      Get them to rub two sticks together near the machine, hell, I don't know. There's a lot more innovative ways to induce problems as needed than the one option given in the article

      Y'all sound as innovative as... well.. that big non-innovative company.

    2. Re:New nifty trick for a hacker book by DasBub · · Score: 1

      I can see it now!

      Two NSA techs sitting in their underground puzzle palace listening to phone conversations about Al Qaeda's superbowl picks.

      "Hey Smith, seems a bit warm, doesn't it?"

      Meanwhile, 10000 miles away in a dry cave, Mr. bin Laden revels in victory,

      "AHAHAHAHA, DIE FUCKERS, ALLAH OWNS YOUR BITS"

    3. Re:New nifty trick for a hacker book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I belive it's:

      AHAHAHAHA, DiE pHuCk3rs, 4114h pWnS Ur B1Ts

    4. Re:New nifty trick for a hacker book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This assumes that there are machines in a server room that don't have ECC memory and that allow you to run untrusted Java programs.

      Doesn't seem likely to me.

      Like the paper said, the most likely realistic targets would be things you have physical access to.

    5. Re:New nifty trick for a hacker book by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 1

      ...sell them AMD64s...

      --
      Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
  11. I'm reminded of Knuth's quote by arvindn · · Score: 4, Insightful
    "Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
    Apparently, the security of the JVM type system has been subject to machine-checked proofs. Yet, a single bit error in memory can be exploited with 70% probability.
    1. Re:I'm reminded of Knuth's quote by Tom7 · · Score: 1

      Yes, well, those proofs work in an abstraction of a machine where memory errors don't occur. The proof is always true, but if the abstraction doesn't model the real world then the proof is meaningless. (Most of the time, though, an attacker doesn't get to cause memory errors in your hardware -- this really only applies to the case where the attacker has physical access to the machine.) It wouldn't be too hard to design a system where memory can instantly change value, and then make another (probabilistic) claim about the security of the program.

  12. Scientific paper by tprox · · Score: 1

    looks like it was written in crayon (well the titles at least)!

  13. This just in... by scubacuda · · Score: 4, Funny
    ...you can fuck up a monitor with a big ass magnet!

    (There are some things you just never forget from your high school physics lab)

    1. Re:This just in... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      u don't need a very big magnet to ruin a monitor. however if u got a big enough magnet you could proably do some damage to any device in the computer that relies of magnitism to work ie the hard drive. (in theory anyway)

    2. Re:This just in... by SoVi3t · · Score: 1

      In theory??? I dare you to take an older subwoofer, and put it next to your case :) I'll talk to you when you finish replacing all the malfunctioning parts, lol!

      --
      Defender of Microsoft and Communism!!!
    3. Re:This just in... by Phroggy · · Score: 1

      Can someone explain why a magnet apparently won't damage a black-and-white TV, but it will damage a color TV?

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    4. Re:This just in... by Tony-A · · Score: 1

      Can someone explain why a magnet apparently won't damage a black-and-white TV, but it will damage a color TV?
      I think the magnet messes with both but the effects are dramatically different.
      For B&W, if the beam hitting a spot is displaced by several pixels, its neighbors will be similarly displaced and only a small bit of overall distortion would be noticed.
      Color depends on some rather precise alignments so that the red gun hits the red dots and only the red dots. If the magnet messes with this alignment (which has to be at subpixel level) the colors get messed up.
      To complicate matters, for color it's the path or angle that is critical.

      Moral of the story? KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid)
      (IIRC came out of the Skunk Works where "it is exactly rocket science" ;-)

    5. Re:This just in... by BusterB · · Score: 3, Informative

      In a color TV, there are three types of phosphors, red, green and blue. The electron guns (or gun in a trinitron) must be aligned so that they hit the correct phosphors. Otherwise, the colors look off. The guns are typically aligned with an appeture mask or grille, which snaps the electron streams into place above their respective phosphors.

      A black-and-white TV has only one type of phosphor, so it is not as important that the electron streams hit the correct, absolute position on the screen. The screen is uniformly coated, and I don't believe there is an appeture screen on these types of screens.

      So, what happens when you hold a magnet to the screen? For one, you deflect the electron streams, so you get a temporarily distorted image, and the colors are off because the electron streams are pointing to the wrong phosphors. With B/W, it just doesn't matter; a phosphor is a phosphor.

      Additionally, a powerful magnet can permanently distort or magnetize the metal appeture mask/grille, causing permanent damage the the screen's ability to align electron streams to the appropriate phosphors.

      And that's it. I may have misspelled appeture. Oh well.

    6. Re:This just in... by MattCohn.com · · Score: 1

      I've seen a tape bulker placed next to a computer on the side the hard drive was located. Someone noticed and they moved the computer, but soon afterwards the HD failed. I wonder...

  14. Read it, it's not just physical access! by clambake · · Score: 1

    It's any process that can be running when menory erros happen. they happen all the time, relativly, so all you need to do is make an applet that runs in the background of somone's box for a few days, thier example was seti@home, java version, but you could be original and say, hmm, a free porn viewer or something. Eventually there will be a memory error OR a virtual memory error due to disk corruption, and presto, you got in. With .NET it might be even easier, since eventually people won't even have a "extra" VM that has to be loaded and run for programs, it will be the default. So at that poing ALL programs become questionable.

  15. In other news. by MisterFancypants · · Score: 5, Funny

    It turns out that if you have physical access to a system, you can perform a pretty effective denial of service attack using a rather devious little bit of technology called a 'baseball bat'.

    1. Re:In other news. by standsolid · · Score: 0

      i'd prefer the techology of "glass of water" -- or to hide the intentions, maybe a nice "mug of coffee"

      --
      WTPOUAWYHTTOTWPA
      What's the point of using acronyms when you have to type out the whole phrase anyways?
    2. Re:In other news. by VValdo · · Score: 1, Funny

      It turns out that if you have physical access to a system, you can perform a pretty effective denial of service attack using a rather devious little bit of technology called a 'baseball bat'.

      Don't tell Ashcroft, he'll try to ban baseball in the name of national security!

      W

      --
      -------------------
      This is my SIG. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    3. Re:In other news. by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Funny

      It turns out that if you have physical access to a system, you can perform a pretty effective denial of service attack using a rather devious little bit of technology called a 'baseball bat'.

      No no no, that is a management tool.

    4. Re:In other news. by venomkid · · Score: 1

      Don't forget the dangerous but effective "hatchet through the power supply" exploit.

      --
      vk.
  16. best line from the article by zatz · · Score: 5, Funny

    Fortunately for the attacker, few users are surprised these days when applications use hundreds of megabytes to accomplish trivial tasks.

    --

    Java: the COBOL of the new millenium.
    1. Re:best line from the article by scubacuda · · Score: 3, Funny
      Whoops...forgot the

      delete [] bigAssArray;

      line from my code...

    2. Re:best line from the article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Java was made by a admitted, convicted pedophile.

      Most people who use Java are pedophiles, too.

  17. More elegant way to break a VM by irc.goatse.cx+troll · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Anybody remember the User Mode Linux VM escape exploit?
    Seems more elegant than nuking your machine.
    At DefCon X, Gobbles announced a simmiler vulnerability in vmware, though no exploit or advisory has been released so far. For anyone that assumes they're just fear mongering, They also announced the zero day apache bug there, which I'm sure you all remember.

    --
    Pain lasts, kid. Its how you know you're alive. Sometimes I think this growing up thing is just pain management-TheMaxx
    1. Re:More elegant way to break a VM by evilviper · · Score: 1
      For anyone that assumes they're just fear mongering, They also announced the zero day apache bug there, which I'm sure you all remember.

      Just because they've ONCE proven themselves correct doesn't mean they are slightly trustworthy.

      Sure, they announced the OpenBSD/Apache exploit, then went on ranting that they had exploits for every other platform (which they've never yet released).

      Then there is one more I'm sure everyone will remember... They claimed that they were working for the RIAA, and had released a bug that had successfully infected (IIRC) 80% of all systems running P2P programs.

      <SARCASM>
      No, I'm sure they're not fear-mongering... NO WAY! NEVER!
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  18. Why you should care by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    It requires physical access. Ho hum. Quick, apply derision, maximum force!

    Well, Palladium and "Trusted Computing" control boxes that you have physical access to.

    That sound is the light bulb clicking on over your head.

    Fucking insecure closeminded slashdot wannabees...

  19. viva las vegas by CrazyJim0 · · Score: 2, Funny

    If you can manage to sneak an Xray thing in your keychain. If you know where a slot machine's memory is.

  20. Yes no problem... by Cross+Wired · · Score: 1

    we just ask the little monkeys inside the memory chip who are in charge of steering the data to guide our thermal rays to just the right CMOS gates used by the JVM process so as not to crash the computer... Real practical exploit NOT.

    1. Re:Yes no problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read the article. The exploit involves filling up as much memory as possible with pointers that when changed by one bit, are still likely valid pointers but to an object of a different type.

    2. Re:Yes no problem... by Cross+Wired · · Score: 1

      Doesn't matter, since the attacker has no idea of physically where to apply the error producing agent on the memory module package's outside surface and since the agent most likely cannot be restricted to extremely small localized areas on the silicon ( heat distributes in all directions, shorting gates with radiation disrupts nearby gate operation ), there is a very high probability that the results will be to only crash the operating system and/or the hard drive.

  21. Cancer hackers? by SoVi3t · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Not only can they hack my computer, but they can give me cancer as well now! When will those bastards ever stop???

    --
    Defender of Microsoft and Communism!!!
  22. Make clip on lamps illegal by Alain+Williams · · Score: 4, Funny

    Surely the solution is obvious: make the posession of clip on lamps an offence under the DMCA, I cannot see why someone would want to posess such equipement unless it was to break into a computer and steal the latest music CDs....

    1. Re:Make clip on lamps illegal by Florian+Weimer · · Score: 1

      Overclocking is probably already illegal under the DMCA.

    2. Re:Make clip on lamps illegal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Legal, illegal - anybody still cares?

    3. Re:Make clip on lamps illegal by TheLastUser · · Score: 1

      Maybe the DMCA should be extended to forbid introduction of stupid computer security legislation that denies people the basic rights of property ownership.

    4. Re:Make clip on lamps illegal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      That's what things like the DMCA and the Patriot Act have taught me. Basically, everything worth doing is illegal because some people abuse things. If they want to get you, they won't have a problem coming up with some trumped up reason.

      So just do what the fuck you want, and don't worry about the legality. (Of course having $$$ and connections helps to get you off when you do get caught.)

  23. I hate software that requires me to enter a subjec by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Because the attack requires very large amounts of memory to operate efficiently, the application in which it's hidden would itself have to be a memory hog. Fortunately for the attacker, few users are surprised these days when applications use hundreds of megabytes to accomplish trivial tasks."

  24. Simple countermeasure? by The+Clockwork+Troll · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Whenever your code has occasion to store a boolean value (for later test/comparison), store multiple copies of it at predictable but "geographically" disparate locations in RAM.

    Then, when doing the test/comparison, if there is not consensus in the bits (they should be all 1 or all 0), you know some memory error has occurred. The confidence level in the boolean test could be made arbitrarily high by storing increasing numbers of redundant bits.

    This would slow things down considerably but it seems cheaper than lead cases.

    This countermeasure is obviously not foolproof because most branches ultimately come down to a single register test but perhaps it's an improvement? Comments?

    --

    There are no karma whores, only moderation johns
    1. Re:Simple countermeasure? by calica · · Score: 1

      Your countermeasure would do nothing to affect the security of the JVM. The problem is with the in-memory code being modified after the type checking is done. This would allow untrusted code to pass invalid data to trusted code, thus comprimising the JVM. Very similar to buffer overruns.

      The best your solution would allow is: "Oh oh, memory has been corrupted. Guess I'll stop". Not very good behavior for a smartcard

      Sorry if the above doesn't make much sense. I need to get some sleep.

    2. Re:Simple countermeasure? by pla · · Score: 1

      Whenever your code has occasion to store a boolean value (for later test/comparison), store multiple copies of it at predictable but "geographically" disparate locations in RAM.

      No need to do so much extra work. Just use 0 as true and -1 as false, then actually check for the desired value rather than the negation of a value (ie, "a==FALSE" rather than "a!=TRUE").

      Though not (necessarily) separated by a large physical distance on the chip, simply setting all bits of a word on or off gives (on a 32-bit machine) a Hamming distance of 32, with up to 15 bits correctable.

      When dealing with an attack dependant on exploiting random errors, you might see single-bit and the rare double-bit error, but depending on the occurance of a 17-bit error? Not very likely to happen.

      Of course, this doesn't apply to non-boolean values, but then, this strikes me as a generally "silly" exploit anyway. I may as well start my program and then just wait for it to "randomly" become UID 0. Somehow I suspect the machine will far more likely lock up than give me root.

    3. Re:Simple countermeasure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      your idea was indeed simpler!

  25. Breakability Proven by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, breaking a machine to which you have access was proven a long time ago. As E.E. "Doc" Smith wrote: "What science can create, science can duplicate."

  26. Secrecy my arse. by Gordonjcp · · Score: 4, Informative
    It's been known for a *very, very* long time that semiconductors are light sensitive. It's been known for a reasonably long time that the tiny capacitors that make up dynamic RAM are very sensitive to light. In fact, there was a project in Byte magazine in the late 1970s that used a 4116 DRAM chip with the top cut off as a black-and-white CCD camera. It worked remarkably well.


    Using bit errors to flake out machines, where there is no parity or other error checking, is very far removed from "secret tinfoil hat" stuff. Why do you think chips are packed in black epoxy?

    1. Re:Secrecy my arse. by calica · · Score: 1

      There was another project in C64 Magazine that did the same thing. Used it until I got my Amiga with a newtek capture.

    2. Re:Secrecy my arse. by jetmarc · · Score: 1

      They used the light buld as HEAT source, not as a LIGHT source.

    3. Re:Secrecy my arse. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not that DRAM chips are susceptible to light. It's that they are susceptible to the photoelectric effect, a quantum effect which vis-a-vis is induced by light. I'm sorry I did not read the paper yet but this is what I induced from the discussion.

  27. Next Spy Gadget? by broothal · · Score: 2, Funny

    At first I thought "why don't you just fire a gun instead of expensive x-rays". But once X-ray emitting devices becomes small enough, this could be a new spy gadget. Walk up to the metal detector in the airport. Point your pencil (with built in X-rays) to the scanner and zap it. Then walk right in.

    Or, it can be used for lesser evil stuff as well. In the office. Find the cubicle with the guy that just hates computers. Every time you walk by him to get a cup of coffee, zap his computer with your device. Try to time it so he loses maximum amount of work. Then sit back and watch him go postal.

  28. New Computer Cases by ExEleven · · Score: 5, Funny

    "New LEAD cases from lian li to protect your system from intuders" Just another thing to worry about when it comes to security.

    1. Re:New Computer Cases by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      "New LEAD cases from lian li to protect your system from intuders" Just another thing to worry about when it comes to security.

      My LED beats your LEAD ;-) Especially when it is a large LED ;-)

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
  29. Alex descends into hell for a bottle of milk by m00nun1t · · Score: 5, Funny

    How many websites would have an article that begins:
    "A very cool scientific paper..."

    Oh dear, we really are geeks, aren't we.

    1. Re:Alex descends into hell for a bottle of milk by Chicane-UK · · Score: 1

      Speak for yourself.. I just skipped the article and headed in here to read the comments. No 'cool scientific papers' for me ;)

      --
      "Hey! Unless this is a nude love-in, get the hell off my property!!"
    2. Re:Alex descends into hell for a bottle of milk by PissingInTheWind · · Score: 1

      I just skipped the article and headed in here to read the comments. No 'cool scientific papers' for me ;)

      That must be why you make such an insignificant contribution to the discussion.

      --

      A message from the system administrator: 'I've upped my priority. Now up yours.'
    3. Re:Alex descends into hell for a bottle of milk by Chicane-UK · · Score: 1

      Well, looking at our comments.. I'd say that mine was at least mildly entertaining whilst yours quite pointless & insignificant.

      --
      "Hey! Unless this is a nude love-in, get the hell off my property!!"
  30. a side note about developement of ecc by bloodbob · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I Believe I could be mistaken but the guy who made up the finite state machine for ECC had a mental break down. Making something like that is very complex I wonder how long parity checks which offer no correction where thought to be state of the art.

  31. We did this years ago. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    One time on holiday with my cousins, we got the electric gas lighter for the cooker (makes a spark to light the gas, hand held) and brought it to the local arcade.

    By removing the top off it we would zap all the screws on the machines until something happened.

    Battlezone seemed to give us loads of free games :)

  32. Nothing new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This reminds me of "attacks" with electronic lighters on some old poker machines. You would use the lighter on the coin slot for about half a min. Then on the double or nothing game you would get 1,2,3,4,5 spades (4x + the staight flush bonus). The problem is that operators that knew about this might check the game statistics and if you use this trick one of them shows a weird symbol instead of a number. Oh well, it was good while it lasted.

  33. ECC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    shit, now I really have a reason to upgrade to ECC RAM

  34. Bored much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    clipping a lamp to heat up your memory so that your program will work and cause problems on the system.

    Does someone have way too much time on their hands or what? I've not seen so much effort put into making a small bit of code work for such a useless result since I tried to run a dos game on my W2k box.

    I guess that whole Toaster-PC(now with browning control and convenient half-hight panel toast-ejector!) idea is scrapped now.

  35. ECC for making machines .... **cheaper** ! by Morgaine · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This (excellent) paper alludes to the usual situation that cheaper machines tend not to use ECC in memory modules and in other parts of their architecture in order to save on manufacturing costs.

    Note however that this common perception is not strictly speaking entirely accurate or necessary, because if a system is designed to meet a given level of reliability then a machine with ECC may end up being cheaper than one without ECC, because the error detection and correction can make up for reduced reliability in the rest of the hardware.

    As an example, some components may be run closer to their operating limits, possibly partially overclocked, or power supplies may be less well regulated and hence electronic noise margins may be slightly compromised, or the system may be designed with substandard cooling, and so on. ECC could help mitigate some of the effects of such presumably cheaper designs, while still maintaining the reliability of better implementions.

    So, there's slightly more to the "ECC only found in better systems" argument than at first meets the eye. As usual, caveat emptor. :-)

    --
    "The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
    1. Re:ECC for making machines .... **cheaper** ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've heard that ECC is slightly slower than regular ram.

    2. Re:ECC for making machines .... **cheaper** ! by TheLastUser · · Score: 1

      Hey, we're talking about Java here, nobody cares about the speed argument. :-)

  36. Re:Please Help by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You must be German. Everyone in Germany is into that.

  37. Sorry Guys but.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you're that close why not just steal the whole damn computer? Or unplug it. Or just shoot the guy with the smart card. Tazor gun anyone? These guys got way to much time in there hands. I'm sure if you pressed a charged capacator against it you would give it brain damage to. Maybe the'll give me some cash to do a study?

    Like can you electorcute the owner of the card and still withdraw cash from it after you pry it out of his smoldering hands?

  38. Powerpoint??? by SCHecklerX · · Score: 1

    Sorry. My browser does not render powerpoint.

  39. Excellent Smithers!!! by Pedrito · · Score: 2, Funny

    This is the last step I needed in my Java trojan I've been writing. Now all I need to do is go to everyone's house with my x-ray machine, and I'm in like Flint!

  40. In the lab today, in the wild tomorrow... by donert · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is good stuff. Although the experiment used physical access to stress the memory, the theory could be used as an exploit in real situations in ways that the narrow of mind (like me) cannot conceive.

    Perhaps this is not a method of practical attack on a machine. But it may be just a matter of creative thinking.

    The key take away is to not disallow the possiblity.

    Threats you discard as harmless is a logical place for an attacker to begin. Remeber the Maginot line.

  41. Article in short by watzinaneihm · · Score: 1

    The article says that if you can get close enough to zap a box with xrays and simultaneously get the box to let your Java code use 60% of the memory and if the machine does not hang then you have a 70% chance of getting root. And the RAM has to be non ECC RAM.
    Looks like all xSeries servers from IBM and Dell(Power Edges) and HP ship only with ECC RAM , and ECC errors are actually logged by software.
    So forget walking into Las Vegas Casinos with a Xray machine.

    --
    .ACMD setaloiv siht gnidaeR
    1. Re:Article in short by jareds · · Score: 1

      You don't get root, you get to be whatever user the Java VM is.

  42. Re:New nifty trick for a hacker book (hah) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Administrators know. The minute the temperature rises in any of my machine rooms, I receive an instant message. All sensors and monitoring systems are doubled and doing constant cross checks. (I get an alarm also if monitoring fails.)

    Most likely I am there five minutes before the maintenance company, as they have their monitoring systems also.

    You know - when cooling fails, temperature will race up rather fast, therefore you want to know right then when it begins. This is the situation with every company which has machine rooms, and as far as I know, they have also addressed this problem.

  43. Even submitters don't read the article by dmadole · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I expect posters to not read the article (well, ppt), but even the submitter didn't read it?

    The article does mention x-rays, saying "not enough energy to change a DRAM capacitor." Yet everyone talks about x-rays...

    I found the phrase from the article "screw driver to remove hard drive" amusing when I first read it. Then I realized they meant "screwdriver". I thought initially they were referring to a DOS attack by corrupting the device driver!

    1. Re:Even submitters don't read the article by evilviper · · Score: 1
      "screw driver to remove hard drive" amusing when I first read it. Then I realized they meant "screwdriver". I thought initially they were referring to a DOS attack by corrupting the device driver!

      Strange, I thought they were talking about having sex with someone's driver who has access to sensitive material, then convincing them to steal a hard drive.

      Yessss... Screw Driver!
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  44. Brute force by Xner · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Any encryption can still be broken through though brute force.

    And any literary work can be obtained with an infinite number of monkeys sitting at an infinite number of typewriters for an infinitely long period of time.

    Most serious ciphers attacked using brute force with contemporary technology will probably hold out until the universe's heat death. Not to mention the fact that some experts claim that there simply is not enough energy in the universe to cycle a 128 bit counter through all its states, let alone perform any computations.

    --
    Pathman, Free (as in GPL) 3D Pac Man
    1. Re:Brute force by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, Schneier points out that if you built a Dyson sphere around the sun to trap all its energy, it MIGHT be enough to cycle a counter through all (2**128) states before it implodes, if your high and low voltages were just barely distinguishable and you can do it fast enough.

      Not that it's terribly useful. A 256-bit key would require that you perform the same feat (2**128) times-- which I doubt will happen.

    2. Re:Brute force by Neon+Spiral+Injector · · Score: 1

      You don't need an infinite amount of time. One of your infinite monkeys will produce any work in the ammount of time it takes to bang on the keys of its typewriter.

      Also one monkey at one typewriter given an infinite amount of time will also produce all literary works.

      Quantum computers are somewhat like the first example, where today's technology is basicly like the second.

    3. Re:Brute force by Com2Kid · · Score: 1
      • Actually, Schneier points out that if you built a Dyson sphere around the sun to trap all its energy, it MIGHT be enough to cycle a counter through all (2**128) states before it implodes, if your high and low voltages were just barely distinguishable and you can do it fast enough


      Of which I have just a slightly higher chance of bringing an x-ray machine into close contact with a supposidly secure computer. :-P

      Seriously, megasuperfaster beyond anything we can produce today computers are about as likely as me dragging an x-ray machine of some sort around, or even ripping open a case and pointing 50 watt lights at somebodies RAM chips.

      The point is, what security we already have is generaly good enough for today and NOT something that is going to be broken by some astronomical feat of engineering any time soon.

      Well except for copying down people's PIN numbers of passwords. That is still the largest security hole out there. :-P ^_^
  45. palladium by astrashe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    One use for this sort of thing might be to get a palladium system to do something it's not supposed to. In that case you'd have access to your own machine.

    Palladium is just a specialized VM that runs on tamper proof hardware, that's designed to let other people trust the results of some computations performed on your machine.

    1. Re:palladium by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      palladium doesn't exist yet you fucking knob. unless you're bill gates's right hand man you don't know what the hell it is so shut your stupid ass hole.

  46. Nothing new in the article... by Alwin+Henseler · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Let me conclude from reading the article:
    -Memory errors can allow a system running a virtual machine to be compromised/corrupted
    -Such memory errors are most likely to occur when an attacker has physical access to the machine
    -One way to make it less likely, is to use error correction (ECC) on the memory.

    Rewritten:
    -If a computer's memory is not 100% reliable, you can't fully trust software running on it, to perform as expected
    -Physical access to a machine gives an attacker more chance of compromising it
    -Having error correction enabled, would make a system more reliable.

    So what's new here? Nothing.
    I have to give the researchers credit though, for the nice way they worked out how to exploit such hardware errors.

    1. Re:Nothing new in the article... by Xarin · · Score: 1

      What is new is that physical access is not needed to compromise the JVM. What is needed is a computer that is not 100% reliable. Unless you want to argue that all computers connected to the Internet are reliable, there exists a security hole in current JVMs that is widely exploitable regardless of whether the design and implementation of the JVM is "proved" correct and secure. In order to acomplish this, one writes an Applet that is designed to exploit the fact that once in a while a bit gets accidently flipped. When such a bit flip occurs in a region of vulnerablility, the Applet will then have free reign on the machine. After writing such an Applet, one offers it to the world via a web page and some of the downloading machines may be compromised. If the downloading machine is overclocked, inadaquately cooled, connected to a noisy power line, or badly designed/constructed the probability of compromise will be much higher. If the machine is using ECC memory it should be a lot lower.
      This is quite significant since Sun has been touting Java as secure and assuring everyone that Applets are 100% safe and you should have no fear about letting them run on your machine. This does not seam to be the case and Applets seem to be slightly less then 100% safe which should fine for most everyone except the victims of course.

  47. Neons by hansroy · · Score: 2, Funny

    Good. Maybe all those kids with neon lights in their cases will have the same problem. I'm sure case modding was fun for awhile, but when every mod has to include the basic package of lights, fans, etc., it becomes too stock. Just like every '89 Civic I see with cut springs & an F1 wing. Yes, I am grumpy when I wake up.

  48. .Net can't stand the light of day? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Why is this a surprise?

    It probably also shies away from garlic, runs away from crosses, and won't go away until you drive a stake through it's heart.

  49. Hi, its the Internet calling. by Pharmboy · · Score: 2, Funny

    Yea, doing this from remote would be a little harder.....

    RING RING, "Hi, um my name is 'Bob', Im from 'The Internet Company'. We think there is a problem and we need you to help us here. Um, we need you to set your computer next to your microwave for a minute. Oh, no can do?...ok, um, you got like a 50 watt lamp you can stick next to your computer case? Ok, good, yea, do that. Oh yea, and go to this java web site.....yea, I can wait..."

    I GUESS you could do some social engineering to get someone to comply. Seems like it would easier to sent out a couple hundred "I make this game, its my first. Hope you like." emails with BO in them to get one to bite.

    --
    Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
  50. Know what is really scary? by origin2k · · Score: 2, Informative

    The fact that most desktop/laptop and some server computers shipping today have no type of memory error detection or correction.

    Back in the older days _all_ computers shipped with at least parity memory. Today you get no checking unless you buy a workstation or server class machine.

    Did you ever notice that when you build an IBM system on-line that they make it very clear that the system uses non-parity memory where other companies never mention this? I think they know that someday someone will bring forth litigation on this subject and they want to make sure everything was clearly stated.

    Did you ever wonder how much data is corrupted my bad memory chips? Remember that memory sizes are increasing all the time so one would think that the probability for an error is higher.

    Did you ever wonder why Apple didn't use ECC memory in their xserve rack mount server?

  51. google ppt cache render... by AcquaCow · · Score: 1

    For those who don't do PPT or PDF.. I threw this through google http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:YV5cbDGeKscC: www.cs.princeton.edu/~sudhakar/papers/memerr.pdf&h l=en&ie=UTF-8 I think that is the same presentation. It renders like crap, but you can atleast read it...

    -- AcquaCow

    --

    up 12 days, 22:30, 2 users, load averages: 993.20, 994.21, 994.56
    *makes note to limit user processes...
    1. Re:google ppt cache render... by AcquaCow · · Score: 1

      Well, that broke, but there's a pdf here Or click here and hit the top link for google's html cache of it...

      sorry the link in the last post didn't work...

      -- AcquaCow

      --

      up 12 days, 22:30, 2 users, load averages: 993.20, 994.21, 994.56
      *makes note to limit user processes...
    2. Re:google ppt cache render... by samhalliday · · Score: 1

      what are you on? this is NO help at all.. you are just retyping the /. links! if you want to help, render the _powerpoint slides_ into pdf and put that on the web somewhere! the paper itself was always in pdf for us all to read.

  52. Government Conspiracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This explains everything! On the back of most PC's (store-bought ones anyway), there is a little FCC sticker that says something along the lines that "This device cannot cause interference (that makes sense), and this device must ACCEPT ALL interference including interference that may cause undesired operation. (WHY?)" This is what they have been using to take over our PCs. In fact, they have specialized EMF guns that they can target from the van sitting across the street of your house right now. Flowers By Irene my ass.

    So, peel off that sticker from your pc, take out your aluminum foil and start making a hat for your PC. While you're at it, make one for your pets too; how many times have they watched you type your password while you work. Leave no stone unturned. Of course, I'm assuming like me you already have a hat for yourself...

  53. What's wrong with PowerPoint? by _xeno_ · · Score: 1
    What's wrong with PowerPoint? There's nothing wrong with PowerPoint! Do you expect people to be able to communicate without PowerPoint? Have you people managed to evolve beyond the PowerPoint stage? I thought that everyone had to send e-mails that contained three bullet points as a PowerPoint attachment. You mean to suggest that there are better ways to do this?!

    But how would you get the bullet items to fly in from the right and dissolve out from a white to gray using plain text? It's just not possible!

    People who can communicate without PowerPoint? Hah! Next thing, you'll be telling me that people can talk from all over the world using nothing but text!

    --
    You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
    1. Re:What's wrong with PowerPoint? by Ed+Avis · · Score: 1

      You're quite right, no message is effectively delivered unless with PowerPoint. Like this.

      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
  54. NASA has been researching this for a long time by ishmalius · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Aerospace researchers have been investigating the effects of different types of radiation on computers and other electronics for decades. Why would a virtual machine be any different, whether on a PC board, or on a smart card?

    It is often questioned on this site as to why spacecraft do not use the latest/greatest computing equipment available. It is because the flight-capable designs have proven themselves tolerant of harsh environments, including alpha/beta/X radiation. (And other things, like low power consumption, heat generation, etc.)

    It would be nice to know that a smart card with all of my personal information could survive the places my wallet has been. I need quad redundancy and forward error correction in my pocket!

  55. soda machine fun by scubacuda · · Score: 1
    In high school, someone told me that if you poured salt water into a vending machine's coin slot, it would give you free soda.

    I saw someone do this, and lo and behold...IT WORKED.

    He tried it again and again after that...but never could get it to work.

    I dunno...go figure. After that, he just went back to a taped dollar bill that he'd pull out of the machine once it "registered".

  56. I told you so! by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    The article uses OOP examples that tell how to hack around by having flipped bits change object pointers that allow you to "see" objects or object portions that you are not supposed to see. The simple solution is to not use OOP. I told you OOP was dangerous :-)

    1. Re:I told you so! by dpt · · Score: 1

      The simple solution is to not use OOP

      Except you can do the same sort of thing in C quite easily.

    2. Re:I told you so! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      oops

  57. It's Appel by thesilverbail · · Score: 1
    The paper's by Andrew W. Appel, and that's a well known name in the PL and compilers world.

    What he's done is described a method to make it almost 70% likely that a soft memory error would lead to a situation a hacker can exploit. It involves a very ingenious use of addressing schemes and pointer arithmetic.

    Next time, please think twice before accusing a respected Computer scientist like Andrew Appel of redundancy.

    --
    I have found a truly wonderful proof of Fermat's Last Theorem, but unfortunately this sig is too small to contain it.
  58. Cosmic Billies? by krumms · · Score: 1

    To
    attack a computer to which he has no physical access, he
    can convince it to run the program and then wait for a
    cosmic ray (or other natural source) to induce a memory
    error.



    Cosmic Rays... are they like country singers in space or something?

  59. Xbox? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    anyone know the possibilities of using this kind of attack on the xbox to allow arbitrary code?

    hmm neoproject, operation xbox? anyone?

  60. trusted bytecode by epine · · Score: 1


    I've always thought that the JVM security model was the moral equivalent of eliminating the FDA in favour of tamper resistant pill bottles.

    Tamper resistant packaging is a darn good idea. But it's not a good idea to be so impressed by the packaging that we forget that how easily well intentioned people can create combinations of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen and a few choice flavour additives that kill.

    Bottom line: no matter how much rocket science you pour into the packaging, you still have to ask hard questions before ingesting the contents into your body.

    Unless you believe that large software companies have entirely different profit motives than large pharmaceuticals.

    1. Re:trusted bytecode by jareds · · Score: 1

      I've always thought that the JVM security model was the morla equivalent of eliminating the FDA in favour of tamper resistant pill bottles.

      That's a very bad analogy. Tamper-resistant pill bottles are supposed to ensure that no one other than the manufacturer has done anything to the contents. They do nothing unless the consumer trusts the manufacturer. The computer equivalent of tamper-resistant pill bottles is programs digitally signed by the author.

      This is entirely unlike the JVM security model. I can't think of a good medical analogy for the JVM security model. Computers, unlike the human body, operate in ways that we can precisely model mathematically. Any interested third party can verify the proof of soundness of Java's type system, without the immense resources that would be required for a third party to conduct clinical trials of drugs, which are only empirical evidence of safety. This article shows how to take advantage of a situation where a computer does not operate as specified.

  61. DCMA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I will sue the bulb and flashlight manufactures under the DCMA. They are producing circunvention devices...

  62. Score -1: Redundant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hrm, and how exactly do you incorporate a true one time pad and "smartcard" technology?

    Every time some security concern gets posted that even remotely concerns crypto, this old horse just gets flayed alive. C'mon people...

  63. Ahhh, core wars! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Ahhh, now that brings back memories! Core Wars... a game in which computer programs are purposely designed to destroy one another. Also, unsurprisingly, a lot of the earliest core wars "servers" were just havens for a LOT of the earliest generations of virus writers.

    Too bad the trend started to eventually become "crack a computer somewhere and play Core on it, cause it's easier than setting up and securing your own box every time." Whoever was able to infect the target to the greatest effect (without fatally crashing it) "won".

    There were even a few (usually pretty lame) attempts at playing on internal networks using network oriented exploit and breeder packages. However, two or three of the somewhat nastier (but really obvious and easy to eradicate) unix virii strains came from those sessions, iirc...

  64. Or better yet, take this to exteme by iamacat · · Score: 1

    A system made with junk hardware, for example all defective components that failed QA tests, but sufficient redundancy and error correction to run normally. Mass storage that can *maybe* store a terabyte on a CD-size disk, with astronomical error rate and error-correction software that gets 100G in reliably. Processors that run overclocked by design and have extra circuits to correct occasional failures. Any takers?

    1. Re:Or better yet, take this to exteme by Thud457 · · Score: 1
      Jesus Christ, you just described the basic SKYNET assembly module!

      Although it'd be fun to play around with multiply-redundant hardware like that.

      --

      the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  65. Re:Please Help by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To my understanding, everyone eats feces. I hear that after sex, common everyday girls/women want the man to shit on them. I know this one guy and he said after fucking his woman in the ass: she wanted him to shit on her chest. I say, "WTF?" and he says, "NO FUCKING SHIT, DUDE! I'VE DISPENSED 'NOUGH ALREADY AND SHE CAN GET HER OWN SHIT I SAYS!"

    That's some freaky fucking shit, eh? I hope the females don't start disliking penis; choosing solidified shit in the shape of a dong instead of a good ol' man's dick. *crieing* DAMN YOU HILARY ROSEN!

  66. Conspiracy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    SO THAT's why the LOUISVILLE-KENTUCKY bat factory is secretly located in ... INDIANA.

    THE COMMUNISTS HAVE INVADED! AHHH!

  67. Holy Smokes! by t0ny · · Score: 1

    WOW! Im going to write a scientific paper. Its going to be about how you can crash a Java VM or a Citrix terminal session by repeated blows, via sledgehammer, to the server creating said VM or session.

    --

    Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.

  68. A break (in) from the weather by S.Lemmon · · Score: 1

    Hm, you could just look at a weather map to see when a particular area is having violent thunderstorms. I'd suspect that might just raise the odds of a memeory error from a power spike or EM noise.

  69. Author responds + PDF slides available by sudhakarprinceton · · Score: 2, Informative

    It was a pleasant surprise to see my paper on /. this morning. Now pdf slides are available here . My comments on the views shared here are also available . Sudhakar .

  70. This just in... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    In my own experiments at home. I have found I have been able to reprogram the memory on the servers in the room simply by turning on and off the lights. As you can imagine it's takes an incredibly long to time to program the memory bit by bit. My first attempt resulted in a picture of the latest playboy centerfold to appear on the screen of the server!!! :)

    LOL

  71. Naturally occuring computer viri by Happy+Cramper · · Score: 1

    Ever wonder how many naturally occuring computer viri are out there. With all these cosmic rays, overheated hardware, flakey harddrives and software bugs it would be amazing we haven't run into a little 512 byte virus, yet. Eventually, computers will become self aware :^)

    One of the systems I worked on had checksums on the data ever point in the system. It was checked in hardware every time it crossed a bus or was stored. This improved the reliability considerably.

    -Happy

  72. I don't know if anyone bothered to read the paper, by voodoo1man · · Score: 2, Informative

    But technically this isn't an attack on all sand-box virtual machines, just the early-binding ones like the JVM, which assume a program is safe to run after a single check at compile/link time. Late-bound (or dynamically typed) VM-based languages such as Smalltalk and Lisp aren't as vulnereable to this - only the memory allocation and other atomic system functions that are assumed "safe" are vulnereable, and typically there are only a couple of dozen of these (and a random cooking of which is very likely to crash the VM or the machine by their nature). Of course, randomly messing with the memory will cause program errors and undesired results, and compilers that do a lot of inlining and type assumption optimizations increase the risk.

    --

    In the great CONS chain of life, you can either be the CAR or be in the CDR.

  73. Re:I don't know if anyone bothered to read the pap by sudhakarprinceton · · Score: 1

    Yes you are rite, but not rite. The program makes no use of types at runtime. I mean, there are no typecasts in the program. Hence, the typesafety of the applet can be verified at link time. My guess is that if type safety can be verified at link time, a virtual-machine will try to do it at link time. Finally, a lot depends on the exact implementation details of the VM. I have not looked at Smalltalk and Lisp. So I cant say much about them. However, my instinct tells me that some attack can be launched in those cases. Please let me know if you have some ideas! I am still undecided about what happens with dynamic checking. All depends on what exactly I mean by dynamic checking. Sudhakar.

  74. Re:I don't know if anyone bothered to read the pap by sudhakarprinceton · · Score: 1

    Finally, yes I bothered to read the paper. I might have read it some 100 times. After all I wrote it. :-) Sudhakar.

  75. Could you please *try* to read the article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The article states that if you manage to induce a single-bit-flip error *anywhere* in the program you are running on the virtual machine, then there is a 70% chance that the error can be exploited and used to run untrusted code. Now, there's this little thing called MTBW (mean time between failure) which is a measure of how long your chip will last under normal operating conditions before something fails due to "natural causes". A failure might be, say, a bit-flip error (or any nubmer of other related errors which will work equally well). Chip manufacturers try to ensure that the MTBF for their chips is generally around a few years at least. However, you can increase the failure rate by taking the chip *out of* its normal range of operation. You can do this by, say, heating it up, or irradiating it. (Cosmic rays are a naturally-occuring hazard that cause "soft errors" in operating computer equipment. Any chip that is sent into space must be designed to have a much higher MTBF on earth, because when it is in orbit, it will get hit by a lot more radiation.)

    1. Re:Could you please *try* to read the article? by Cross+Wired · · Score: 1

      Could you please _try_ and live in the real world? MTBF ain't got a thing to do with it. The article talks about disrupting the memory operation by various real world means such as directing heat or radiation onto the memory module housings. The vitual machine is running on top of an operating system which is running simultaneouly inside the same memory module. I believe that it would be virtually impossible to induce by any external means small numbers of bit errors in the memory without a 99% probablilty of first crashing the operating system. Maybe it would be possible in a lab environment, but not in the typical hacker-cracks-system environment. He pulls out the hair dry, gradually blows in some heat, and presto, the computer crashes.

  76. Re:I don't know if anyone bothered to read the pap by voodoo1man · · Score: 1
    First of all, thanks for taking the time to respond to a Slashdot post. Not many authors of papers featured here do the same =]. I must also apologize for the "not reading the paper bit" - that was largely intended at some of the more misinformed posts here on /.

    When I was talking about late-bound VMs, it was largely the ideal case VM, in which all the functions and data are nicely boxed and type-checking is done at every reference. This is of course not the case, especially for Common Lisp (but from what I know of the original Smalltalk VMs and Squeak they come pretty close to the ideal - if you know someone who knows Smalltalk, it would be interesting to see how well this attack will work against the latter).

    Strictly speaking, there is really no Common Lisp implementation entirely contained inside a VM (mostly for speed reasons, but Clisp does come close - it's memory footprint is less than 2mb, and I think it also makes a good candidate to see how well this exploit works against late-bound VMs). Most implementations are native-code compilers - so this exploit certainly applies here, especially since the compilers inline heavily and will make use of optional type specifiers and inference.

    Besides the reliance on native code by the VM and the inlining, I think there are two areas where this exploit might work. First is the way dynamic type information is encoded. I don't think anyone uses a whole extra word for that anymore. There are two popular strategies, one being the BIBOP (Big Bag of Pages) scheme, where certain pages are reserved for specific types, and the other is to encode the type information in the upper bits of a word (Clisp does this), and I've heard that the two are used in together in some combination. Second, conservative GCs make passes fairly often - I suspect there may be a small chance to exploit the garbage collector.

    So it is entirely possible to exploit late-binding VMs with your method of attack, but I am guessing the success rate will be much lower. This may depend on how much external code is used and other factors (it would be interesting to see how well Python stands up compared to the JVM). This is really starting to pique my curiosity. Maybe if I have some time this summer I will perform a similar experiment on one of the CL systems.

    --

    In the great CONS chain of life, you can either be the CAR or be in the CDR.

  77. Problems with heat new to them? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anyone who has done more than trivial work with a standard pc, knows that heat will cause things to fuck up. So they are surprised when they point a heat lamp at a bank of ram, and it fails?

    I've heard that academia can have their heads in the clouds, but this is taking it to a new level.

    1. Re:Problems with heat new to them? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      And I have heard that some ppl are just plain stupid.

  78. OH MY GOD!! by Hard_Code · · Score: 1

    Why were we wasting all our time on buffer overflows and cryptography, when the real threat all along has been...

    COSMIC RAYS!!

    --

    It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
    1. Re:OH MY GOD!! by Thud457 · · Score: 1
      Keep laughing, funnyboy!

      I bet you'll change your tune when I start rattelling a blackhole in Sagitarius!

      --

      the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  79. Java vulnerable, through C! by malachid69 · · Score: 1

    I watched the power-point, because I was really curious how to provide this exploit. Looking at his example, I was really curious when I saw his Java code contained the line "for each pointer p of type A"... Pointer? You don't have direct access to pointers. What is he doing?

    Watch further and it all makes sense. He said that Java is vulnerable to these memory errors, and that you can prove it by adding some non-Java code. Well, no S*&t! Has anyone ever doubted that you can do whatever the hell you want from C or ASM?

    If you are really worried about it, disable JNI. Not only is it an optional package, but you can force it to always be disabled in the Security Manager.

    As a side comment, if you are going to post a nice exploit of Java, please write it in Java.

    Malachi

    --
    http://www.google.com/profiles/malachid
    1. Re:Java vulnerable, through C! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're a fucking idiot. The JVM is written in C (C++ actually - but let's keep it simple for you). Any exploit that can cause the JVM to get an undesirable behavior is a valid exploit. Besides - how would a would-be exploit be able to run foreign java code in the almighty JVM sandbox? Get a frigging clue.

    2. Re:Java vulnerable, through C! by malachid69 · · Score: 1
      I realize that you are an anonymous coward, but let me clear this misconception up for everyone else, since you obviously know nothing about Java.

      The JVM is written in C (C++ actually - but let's keep it simple for you).

      That depends on which implementation. SUN's does, yes -- but the spec does not require it, and there have in fact been versions written in Java. I also have two pieces of hardware that ONLY understand Java bytecodes, no C involved. And, just FYI, SUN's version also has ASM code, you dolt.

      Any exploit that can cause the JVM to get an undesirable behavior is a valid exploit

      That would depend. I can launch something like Visual C++ (yech) and attach to the process, and screw with the memory of the running JVM, and screw it -- is that a JVM exploit? NO! That is an OS exploit.

      how would a would-be exploit be able to run foreign java code in the almighty JVM sandbox

      This can only happen if YOU have not configured the box correctly. I had made the comment that you could disable the JNI, but, let's take it a step further. How about you install a version of Java that doesn't support JNI at all, since it is an optional add-on and not required per the spec? If you don't setup security on your box, then it is your fault if it isn't secure.

      But, let's be realistic here. I am sure everyone on /. knows that your can write damaging code in C (or C++, or ASM, or...). The vulnerability is there because Java (SUN's version) let's you run C code -- but it is still a C exploit, even if it is being launched from Java. Or are you saying that one little C program is a Java exploit, as opposed to an Apache exploit, or Windows exploit or... even though it would work in ALL of them? To be a true Java exploit, you would have to write something in pure-Java that is an exploit. AND, you would have to get THROUGH the Security Manager (which means you forgetting to set up your security doesn't count). That's like saying that a firewall has a security exploit if you configured it wrong.

      --
      http://www.google.com/profiles/malachid
  80. Re:I don't know if anyone bothered to read the pap by sudhakarprinceton · · Score: 1

    I agree with your sentiments. 1)If typechecking is done at every reference, then for each field in the program, the machine shud keep track of its type. So if i have 100M fields(pointers) in my machine, then it means that I need to keep track of 100M types. And this is way too much overhead. 2) It does not matter whether or not the implementation is entirely conrained inside a VM. all i need to do is to turn off the security mangaer, which can be done from inside the virtual machine. 3) I agree that compiler optimisations help my attack. btw, i dunno if you checked my comments on the comments posted here. you can get my comments here Do email me about the results of your experiments. --Sudhakar.

  81. Static electricity by cooldev · · Score: 1

    A long time ago, when I worked at a restaurant as a teenager, I saw an employee that was screwing around with an ion ray gun accidentally open a secure time-lock safe. He simply pointed it at the safe from a few inches away and the safe's electronic display started blinking and it just opened.

  82. Re:This just in! Might be useful for whitening by gd23ka · · Score: 1

    Why not generate a OTP, encrypt the message with it and then send both the OTP and the OTP-encrypted message encrypted with a conventional symmetric cipher? Makes known-plaintext attacks a little more difficult.

  83. What about the possibility of exotic energy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    sources like "zero point energy?"
    Also, is this the mimimum energy to set an electron or something more fundamental?

  84. Don't forget reversible computers by johnynek · · Score: 1

    No, you can't break any encryption through brute force. There just isn't enough energy in the universe to do it, even positing thermodynamically-perfect computers operating at 3.2K.

    While this is true for irreversible computers, it is not true of reversible computers.

    A particular class of reversible computers are quantum computers (to the extent that they are operating error free, errors require some irreversible operations like bit reseting). Particularly, Grover's Algorithm reversibly finds the solution to the NP-complete SAT problem in sqrt(n) steps rather than n steps required by a classical computer.

    Putting it all together, an error free (or sufficiently low error) quantum computer could brute force a 256 bit key in 2^128 (sqrt(2^256)) steps and not be bound to the Landauer bound (which you quoted) on thermodynamic cost of erasing bits.

    PS: here is a nice link for those who don't know anything about thermodynamics of computation.
    --
    jabber: johnynek@jabber.org
  85. The biggest roadblock by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...with the infinite monkeys scenario will be resistance from PETA.