Well, I also knew a guy who was from Lybia who told me that people were dancing in the streets when Reagan went after Gaddafy.
Problem is that for obvious reasons we don't have any way to really know what the majority of people think in those countries.
In other Arab nations were elections have been held we do know what the people are thinking and it is not very encouraging (Algeria, Morocco). The Islamists win the vast majority of votes.
We also already see riots in the streets in Egypt and Jordan because of this war. All this does not bode well.
We mostly do not join because we do not think that Iraqi's want to be occupied by any foreign power.
We also were very much convinced that there was no hard case for war. From our point of view Saddam was contained.
Our military resources are also already overstreched. We have troops in Afganistan but our military equipment was never designed for missions out of borders (we've got tanks but no gear to fly them around).
Already we are at the mercy of the US armed forces if we would have to retreat from Afganisthan in a hurry.
Shouldn't this be left to the Iraqi themselves? There was a Iraqi professor on German TV last night and also he has been tortured in Iraq and certainly knows Saddam's brutalities from 1st hand experience he vigourously argued that his people do not want US troops on their soil.
You are right in saying that "Most of the countries that oppose us do so not because they feel empathy for the people of Iraq, but because they want to check American power."
I am German and it worries me to see so much power in the hand of one man, especially since our history proved that democratic republics can slip into dictatorship. Let's hope that that the USA are immune against this.
I also hope that you are right that "our troops are greeted with celebrations, if within a few months, Iraq's economy is gaining steam and the people have drafted a constition, and if we see a much freer Iraqi people,.." alas from all I know this will unfortunatelly not happen.
My Pentium 90 kicked the crap out of the poorly administered Sun stations at work. The Windows 3.1 for playgroups that they ran on some PC boxes was just a joke in comparison.
Windows has gotten better I can tolerate it at work now, but it still has the bad taste of very poor ancestry.
Look I am German and live much closer to Iraq. I did not feel threatened. Saddam was perfectly contained.
Then again moving in there is opening a can of worms. Our troops are already deployed in Afganistan and that still quite a piece of work.
If your president convinced himself that he has to do this all we can to is to make painfully obvious that we think that this is a mistake. We tried to convince him that it is a mistake, but since he did not change his mind, we won't interfere. But sorry guys we have enough to swallow in Afganistan, we will not help with what we perceive as a pointless war.
Re:"Bush's War" at ends with "The War On Terror"
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I said it in an earlier post and backed it up with a link Germany did recover amazingly well in the 20th given the burden of Versailles. It was less the economic hardship than the fact that Hitler exploited the fact that Versailles was pretty unfair.
My Grandmother still refers to "die Goldenen Zwanziger" when times were good. And my Grandfather felt pretty betrayed when Hitler started a war. Whenever he talked about it he always said that "every second word this bastard uttered was peace". You may have guessed by now that I am German.
Hitler also had to instigate a "terror attack" to get to power. You can read all about it here
The first elected head of state of the 2nd German republic already served as elected mayor before Hitler took over. There was democratic tradition to fall back to.
Iraq lacks these democratic traditions and from 1st hand accounts of exile Iraqis I hear that as much as the Iraqis hate Saddam they hate the US as well, because the blame the US for supporting Saddam in the 1st place and then making war on them twice, with murderous sanction in the mean time.
The US troops will not be welcome. I feel sorry for the soldiers who have to carry out such a poorly thought out campaign.
Re:am I the only one who sees this?
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Terrorists always kill for a reason. It amazed me that so many people seem to forget this. It does not make them any less criminal, but they are not completely irrational. Osama stroke out against US citizens because their tax dollars support Israel and American troops in his "holly country" Saudi Arabia.
The lesson of history of terrorism in many countries clearly demonstarts that military action alone will not stop terrorism. Quite often it provoked the opposit. This war effort is ill advised.
Nukes are the ultimate detterent. That is why we will see more countries than ever striving for them now. Prepare yourself for a new arms race.
The world noticed that the USA attacked Iraq but not North Korea. What will your average 3rd world dictator make of this? Well, North Korea has nukes and rockets to at least reach Japan.
They will draw the perfect logic conclusion, that in order to not be at the mercy of the USA they will need nukes and intercontinental rockets.
This amongst other good reasons is why my government (Germany) and the French tried to tell the US administration (long standing allies after all) that this war at this point in time with that little international support is a really bad idea.
Now we can just hope for the best and pray that things will not develop like this [idleworm.com]
Re:Even MORE vehement positions
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All the people who always compare Saddam to Hitler and want to install a democracy in Iraq always seem to forget that Germany was a democracy before Hitler.
The similarities are eerie indeed. I do not want to demonize Bush but please watch out for your rights and freedoms. Observing this from the outside (I am German) it seems to me that your freedoms are more threatened from the inside then from the outside.
Re: Early weird news reports
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Reminds me of the comments of a cap driver I had once in the states on a business trip. He was from Liberia, and was really happy that I knew a little bit about this country (pretty war torn).
While chatting with me he told me that he couldn't stand the American media. He felt he was getting no real information, no insights, no background, no analysis. He told me in order to not go crazy he was always listening to Canadian radio stations.
Re:Support our troops. SHUT UP!
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· Score: 1
What possible ways out of service do exist for a American soldier who feels that the orders he was given are morally wrong?
Nukes are the ultimate detterent. That is why we will see more countries than ever striving for them.
The world noticed that the USA attacked Iraq but not North Korea. What will your average 3rd world dictator make of this? Well, North Korea has nukes and rockets to at least reach Japan.
They will draw the perfect logic conclusion, that in order to not be at the mercy of the USA they will need nukes and intercontinental rockets.
This amongst other good reasons is why my government (Germany) and the French tried to tell the US administration (long standing allies after all) that this war at this point in time with that little international support is a really bad idea.
Now we can just hope for the best and pray that things will not develop like this
Don't think that'll hold for the very, very hypothetical case of the US joining the EU.
The US economy is certainly much stronger than those of the 10 new EU countries. Anyway, Austria and Germany will not be able to uphold those immigration laws for very long.
The USA backed Pinochet. The USA also backed Noriega before they fell out with him and "reorder" Panama by force.
The USA also strongly supports the current ruler in Pakistan, who is anything but democratic for the same reason that the USA and all other western nations supports the current regime in Algeria. The latter stopped the experiments with democracy when realizing that the Islamistic party was winning the vote.
The CIA was the driving force behind bringing the Shah into power in Iran, which is why the Persians hate the USA so much.
Unfortunately, the USA has a proven track record of supporting dictators in the name of national interests. There is an old saying when referring to such questionable US allies: "He is a bastard but he is our bastard."
Just for the record: North Korea claims it did not feel bound by the treaty that allowed inspections of their nuclear reactors anymore, because the US did not do their part in this old Clinton negotiated treaty i.e. to sign a mutual non-attack accord.
They were pretty lenient about this until Bush located them on the infamous axis of evil.
Mod parent up. People should read this email. It is fascinating and scary. The world's top executives are no liberals by any stretch of the imagination.
Slashdot Mirror
Well, I also knew a guy who was from Lybia who told me that people were dancing in the streets when Reagan went after Gaddafy.
Problem is that for obvious reasons we don't have any way to really know what the majority of people think in those countries.
In other Arab nations were elections have been held we do know what the people are thinking and it is not very encouraging (Algeria, Morocco). The Islamists win the vast majority of votes.
We also already see riots in the streets in Egypt and Jordan because of this war. All this does not bode well.
We mostly do not join because we do not think that Iraqi's want to be occupied by any foreign power.
We also were very much convinced that there was no hard case for war. From our point of view Saddam was contained.
Our military resources are also already overstreched. We have troops in Afganistan but our military equipment was never designed for missions out of borders (we've got tanks but no gear to fly them around).
Already we are at the mercy of the US armed forces if we would have to retreat from Afganisthan in a hurry.
Shouldn't this be left to the Iraqi themselves? There was a Iraqi professor on German TV last night and also he has been tortured in Iraq and certainly knows Saddam's brutalities from 1st hand experience he vigourously argued that his people do not want US troops on their soil.
You are right in saying that "Most of the countries that oppose us do so not because they feel empathy for the people of Iraq, but because they want to check American power."
.." alas from all I know this will unfortunatelly not happen.
I am German and it worries me to see so much power in the hand of one man, especially since our history proved that democratic republics can slip into dictatorship. Let's hope that that the USA are immune against this.
I also hope that you are right that "our troops are greeted with celebrations, if within a few months, Iraq's economy is gaining steam and the people have drafted a constition, and if we see a much freer Iraqi people,
My Pentium 90 kicked the crap out of the poorly administered Sun stations at work. The Windows 3.1 for playgroups that they ran on some PC boxes was just a joke in comparison.
Windows has gotten better I can tolerate it at work now, but it still has the bad taste of very poor ancestry.
Look I am German and live much closer to Iraq. I did not feel threatened. Saddam was perfectly contained.
Then again moving in there is opening a can of worms. Our troops are already deployed in Afganistan and that still quite a piece of work.
If your president convinced himself that he has to do this all we can to is to make painfully obvious that we think that this is a mistake. We tried to convince him that it is a mistake, but since he did not change his mind, we won't interfere. But sorry guys we have enough to swallow in Afganistan, we will not help with what we perceive as a pointless war.
I said it in an earlier post and backed it up with a link Germany did recover amazingly well in the 20th given the burden of Versailles. It was less the economic hardship than the fact that Hitler exploited the fact that Versailles was pretty unfair.
My Grandmother still refers to "die Goldenen Zwanziger" when times were good. And my Grandfather felt pretty betrayed when Hitler started a war. Whenever he talked about it he always said that "every second word this bastard uttered was peace". You may have guessed by now that I am German.
Hitler also had to instigate a "terror attack" to get to power. You can read all about it here
The first elected head of state of the 2nd German republic already served as elected mayor before Hitler took over. There was democratic tradition to fall back to.
Iraq lacks these democratic traditions and from 1st hand accounts of exile Iraqis I hear that as much as the Iraqis hate Saddam they hate the US as well, because the blame the US for supporting Saddam in the 1st place and then making war on them twice, with murderous sanction in the mean time.
The US troops will not be welcome. I feel sorry for the soldiers who have to carry out such a poorly thought out campaign.
It amazes me that this old news still hangs on. It has been reported several times that this story does not hold water.
How much I wish McCain would have made the race. A shame really.
Terrorists always kill for a reason. It amazed me that so many people seem to forget this. It does not make them any less criminal, but they are not completely irrational. Osama stroke out against US citizens because their tax dollars support Israel and American troops in his "holly country" Saudi Arabia.
The lesson of history of terrorism in many countries clearly demonstarts that military action alone will not stop terrorism. Quite often it provoked the opposit. This war effort is ill advised.
Nukes are the ultimate detterent. That is why we will see more countries than ever striving for them now. Prepare yourself for a new arms race.
The world noticed that the USA attacked Iraq but not North Korea. What will your average 3rd world dictator make of this? Well, North Korea has nukes and rockets to at least reach Japan.
They will draw the perfect logic conclusion, that in order to not be at the mercy of the USA they will need nukes and intercontinental rockets.
This amongst other good reasons is why my government (Germany) and the French tried to tell the US administration (long standing allies after all) that this war at this point in time with that little international support is a really bad idea.
Now we can just hope for the best and pray that things will not develop like this [idleworm.com]
All the people who always compare Saddam to Hitler and want to install a democracy in Iraq always seem to forget that Germany was a democracy before Hitler.
Hitler didn't even get a majority of his own, he had to rely on other support in the parliament. He also had to instigate a "terror attack" on the parliament for his power grab.
The similarities are eerie indeed. I do not want to demonize Bush but please watch out for your rights and freedoms. Observing this from the outside (I am German) it seems to me that your freedoms are more threatened from the inside then from the outside.
Reminds me of the comments of a cap driver I had once in the states on a business trip. He was from Liberia, and was really happy that I knew a little bit about this country (pretty war torn).
While chatting with me he told me that he couldn't stand the American media. He felt he was getting no real information, no insights, no background, no analysis. He told me in order to not go crazy he was always listening to Canadian radio stations.
What possible ways out of service do exist for a American soldier who feels that the orders he was given are morally wrong?
Nukes are the ultimate detterent. That is why we will see more countries than ever striving for them.
The world noticed that the USA attacked Iraq but not North Korea. What will your average 3rd world dictator make of this? Well, North Korea has nukes and rockets to at least reach Japan.
They will draw the perfect logic conclusion, that in order to not be at the mercy of the USA they will need nukes and intercontinental rockets.
This amongst other good reasons is why my government (Germany) and the French tried to tell the US administration (long standing allies after all) that this war at this point in time with that little international support is a really bad idea.
Now we can just hope for the best and pray that things will not develop like this
Is this supposed to make it better? People also always loved to watch public execution.
Guess that's really a matter of perspective. I do not consider 300-400 years all that long.
Don't think that'll hold for the very, very hypothetical case of the US joining the EU.
The US economy is certainly much stronger than those of the 10 new EU countries. Anyway, Austria and Germany will not be able to uphold those immigration laws for very long.
As European within the EU you can work unrestricted in any EU country. Maybe the USA should try to join the EU?
If you read the UN charta you will learn that no unprovoked attack on another country is sanctioned by international law.
The UN security council itself likes to overlook this fact. Not like Bush will get another resoltion out of them to sanction his little war anyway.
The USA backed Pinochet. The USA also backed Noriega before they fell out with him and "reorder" Panama by force.
The USA also strongly supports the current ruler in Pakistan, who is anything but democratic for the same reason that the USA and all other western nations supports the current regime in Algeria. The latter stopped the experiments with democracy when realizing that the Islamistic party was winning the vote.
The CIA was the driving force behind bringing the Shah into power in Iran, which is why the Persians hate the USA so much.
Unfortunately, the USA has a proven track record of supporting dictators in the name of national interests. There is an old saying when referring to such questionable US allies: "He is a bastard but he is our bastard."
This saying is reported to have been first used by Nixon.
I personally think it probably is much older and had been a guiding principle for the British empire for a long time, but I may be mistaken.
It certainly raises a lot of doubt for 3rd world countries if they can and should trust the intends of the US administration.
Just for the record: North Korea claims it did not feel bound by the treaty that allowed inspections of their nuclear reactors anymore, because the US did not do their part in this old Clinton negotiated treaty i.e. to sign a mutual non-attack accord.
They were pretty lenient about this until Bush located them on the infamous axis of evil.
You may have noticed that this whole thread was offtopic and that this guy actually answered a previous offtopic posting.
Besides an explanation of how game theory applies to the current Iraq crisis is most certainly anything but a dogma.
Until recently the cold war kept a balance. Seems like the current administration is very intent on conquering things.
Mod parent up. People should read this email. It is fascinating and scary. The world's top executives are no liberals by any stretch of the imagination.