No, the lockout is because the longshoreman were refusing to do their jobs but were still collecting pay.
Anyone who refuses to do his job but expects to be paid should be rewarded with being fired.
The contract is up, they aren't trying to "break" it... and the issue for the union is that tehy want to have more people on staff who do no work but collect money.
First off, they are totally political. They are only interested in furthering the democratic socialist agenda. They have no interest in hearing from members who are libertarian or not interested in union dues being spent to further interests that have nothing to do with the union (like gun control, etc.)
Oh, and thier president thinks its ok to force new workers to join the union (though they don't do that currently) or they loose their jobs because the "union created the job". This is so absurd- the union doesn't create jobs, and to claim that you have a claim on my income because you lobbied the company in the past is wrong.
Washtech has done great at organizing no-skill tech workers like amazon box stuffers and MS receptionists, but they have not done well at getting programmers and other skilled people aboard-- this despite being in an area that is overwhelmingly liberal/socialist.
They look just like the teamsters to me-- promoting mediocrity, taking a cut of your pay, and undermining your ability to lobby for what you want. (not to mention spending your dues towards political positions that have nothing to do with the workplace.)
That you think you can tell the quality of an employee based on a standardized test tells me that this is no a union I would profit from joining.
Hey, anyway, I have no incentive because I negotiate good agreements where I go to work.
But the fundamental problem is that there's no one fit solution for everybody, and unions are trying to say that it is- that labor is something that can be aggregated and negotiated wholesale.
You see? Thanks for at least trying, though.
I think there is the possibility that there can be organizations that support workers, but any time someone gets involved in your negotiations (The definition of union) you are in a worse spot- they never know all your abilities and also have their own interests to look out for at the detriment of yours.
Funny how my "PHB" have never done any of those things.
The last time I got laid off it was by a "PHB" who was making about what I was making (maybe less) and whom I have great respect for and would love to work for again.
This person also gave me a raise, while the economy was going down, let me take breaks whenever I wanted, installed a fooseball table and air hockey at the place of business, made a createive work environment and allowed me lots of freedom.
On the other hand, every union shop I've been in had a soured relationship between management and employees with everyone doing the minimum necessary and nobdy having any pride or joy in their work.
Think about what you just said-- they'd have us working for free if they could.
But they can't because we won't work for free.
That is what keeps our wages up.
A third party there to tell them that we won't work for free doesn't help us, and it costs us because we have to pay the third party. That's all a union is.
the idea that IT jobs will be minimum wage is down right silly. Just cause we're in a downturn you think that's the future of the industry?
they will never pay minimum wage because we would go do something that paid more than minimum wage-- after all, we can make minimum wage anywhere.
If arbys is offering a better deal than a tech job, then that company is in trouble. But somehow, I start to think you aren't really doing tech work.
Management at most every company, large and small, is not corrupt.
The difference is that market forces cause management to be honest and to pay a fair wage-- if they don't, the employees leave.
Unions are parasitical. They do not respond to market forces, and thus they will always be corrupt. They will always try to force companies to only hire union member,s and force new employees to join the union.
If there were 5 unions and you could choose which one you joined, then the unions would be kept honest... but so many people join unions for purely political reasons they don't pay much attention to the leadership and swallow what the leadership tells them.
No, I never said I wanted something for nothing. I just pointed out that gas isn't expensive because of corporate greed but because of government greed.
Here in the state of washingon, the road system is about %3 of the state total budget. THREE PERCENT.
But they can't be bothered to spend more than that and provided decent roads, so they are putting up an initiative to RAISE TAXES TO PAY FOR ROADS!
%3 of the current tax money is going to pay for it and %60 is going to pork-- people literally getting something for nothing like college and healthcare.
I can't tell you how much I wish I had to pay for my usage of state services-- cause if I did, I'd be paying only %10 of what I'm paying now. Cause %90 of what I'm paying is going to services I don't use.
And apparently none of that gas tax is getting into the roads-- since the state ran surplusses for 5 years (And spent all that money on stuff other than roads) and now wants to raise taxes to pay for roads.
Sure, unions can organize. I don't have a problem with that-- but the current situation is that unions are given special rights that violate the rights of the employees and the employers. And that is unacceptable.
The unions are TOO POWERFUL and have destroyed many industries in this country-- auto manufacturing and airlines being two big ones, but the steel industry is another.
The problem isn't that unions don't have rights in this country- they do, they have special rights.
Spoken like someone who has no clue what it takes to run a company.
Here's the clue you're lacking: Just because some decision does not fit your agenda or make your life easier, does not mean the person who made it is inept and incompetent. It means that person had to take other factors into account.
The inability to do so is why you will never join his ranks.
Wow. Almost every one of those is a reason NOT to have unions!
Who wants a rep-- you go talk to your boss directly.
And the state giving union reps special rights and protections-- that's just wrong.
Plus, and in the end, I will never allow a third party to extort part of my paycheck.
My job is a relationship between me and my employer. If either of us don't like it, we can end the relationship. Unions make the country less productive, the workers LESS happy, and the employers more likely to go out of business.
Oh, and since I started reading this, you marked me as a foe-- I haven't even posted this response yet, so you marked me as a foe because of my opinion posted elsewhere in this thread? Cover your ears and close your eyes!
I've never seen a union that was democratically run, and every time I've had to deal with one or been a member, it was NOT in my best interest.
They are great in theory- and any 10 or so employees can collectively bargain, they don't need a union- but unions themselves are a bad answer to a problem more easily handled by ad-hock collective bargaining. and cheaper too!
Of course corporations will work to reduce our salaries, just as we work to raise them.
But you can't get blood from a turnip-- if the wages don't make sense economically, the union certainly can't get them for you.
As to the racist fear of foriegn workers, get over it. If somebody else can do your job better than you, then he deserves it-- whatever his ethnicity.
Basically, tech jobs are pretty secure-- we will continue to participate in job growth and income growth and we don't need unions-- they would only make matters worse.
You want to keep companies form hiring workers that you don't approve?
Its none of your business.
Its a matter for the COMPANY and the potential EMPLOYEE.
This is why unions are bullshit-- they prevent you from going to work for a company unless you pay them a cut of your salary. Its protectionism and extortion.
Why else do unions make it such that every new employee HAS to join the union?
If they really cared about human rights, tehy would rely on their utility to the employee making the employee want to join.
But as the local union thug said "why should they benefit from our work without paying?"
Organized labor scares management because there is no class of individual more skilled at bleeding a company dry than the mafia.
Any business owner would be foolish to not be very concerned indeed, especially given the plentiful examples of companies that could be profitable but are never able to make a profit because the union is sucking them dry. For instance, almost every airline, car manufacturer, airplane manufacturer, etc.
And the counter examples are even more telling: Southwest airline is one of the few profitable airlines right now and they are that way because they DON'T have a strong union. They treat their employees right and the union stays out of it.
Any company that wants to fire me because of my religious beliefs is a company that I didn't want to work for anyway (but I'll be happy to take their stock due to this cause less firing).
Any company that allows its workforce to be orgnaized is foolish. And the laws that prevent it from firing employees that organize violate basic human rights (Right of free association)
If you have been reading the news, maybe you've noticed that unions are unreasonable (the demands of the dock workers-- the issue was over how many non-working stiffs would be kept on the payroll!) and that this country was unionized in a war of violence-- you didn't unionize, hoffa burned down your shop.
Unions have outlived their usefulness, been proven to be completely corrupt and not managed in the interests of the lawyers.
Whine about the ineptitude of organized labor all you want. When you find yourself paying $4.00 a gallon for gasoline to a giant oil conglomorate, you will be doing so because there was no powerful force like organized labor to counterbalance the power of oil company campaign contributions.
Uh, are you unaware that more than %50 of the cost of gas is state and federal taxes?
If you're paying $4.00 for gas, you can be assured that its because of taxes.
Of course, hiding these taxes in the price of gas is one way you get swindled by your government-- you probably support the liberals who want to increase it too, don't you?
All the while bitching about giant conglomerates as if they didn't compete on price, which they do.
I swear by my job, and my pride in it, that I will never join any union, brotherhood, or "workers association", nor will I allow, tolerate or associate with any such entity in any job I ever work at.
My skills are my own soverign property-- no union, guido, flim-flam man, or other parasite will ever profit from them, nor will they be allowed to undermine my value by negotiating in my behalf.
As a FREE MAN, I know my value, and will never submit to the tyranny of others.
I will never allow myself to be in a position where someone can extort money from me under penalty of losing my job if I don't pay it.
I find it hard to accept that the Christian label does not include the calls for sacrifice, and the reliance on the bible, to the exclusion of science.
It sounds like you don't believe in either of these things, right? (By sacrifice, I mean coerced sacrifice. Libertarians and christians both believe in charity.)
Interesting to meet you, by the way.
Rand's position is that christianity teaches the denial of science / objective reality. Do you believe in objective reality? Are you going to base your decisions on science over biblical teachings, or the other way around?
Would you criminalize abortion, even for people who were not christian?
I'd like to hear how you reconcile libertarianism with christianity. I'm not going to challenge whether you are a libertarian-- I'm sure you've reconciled the issues I'd assume are there, and how you've done so, especially incorporating objectivism, while still retaining a christian identity is something I'm sure I'd find fascinating.
Your example is silly to the point on not being worth responding to. Anyone in such a town can leave. The funny thing is that you liberals think that everyone who voluntarily enters into an agreement is not liable for that agreement. TANSTAAFL, but you guys sure seem to expect one!
I challenge you to find an inconsistency in Ayn Rand's Philosophy.
For much of its history, the US did not have a government run police force. Instead, it was handled by local organizations. some volunteer, some commercial.
And the people were freer.
Anyone who does not believe in liberty will not be able to conceive of living in a free society and so they will make fun. But its actually quite sad, really.
Yeah, if you waste your money you only have $50 a month left over.
Your Clothing, health insurance, car insurance, gasoline, car payment values are way too high.
Here's a more realistic budget: $200/month for food $250 for rent - and thats high, after all if you are poor you should have roommates. $80 for a bus pass (and it would be cheaper than this, this is just the local, expensive, price.) $150 health insurance-- IF you employer doesn't offer it. $50 misc
This leaves $270 a month to save.
And minimum wage here is more like $7 an hour, and anyone can work for UPS for $11 an hour. so there's no reason to believe that someone would be making minimum wage for anything other than a short term.
Also, you can save an extra $100 a month by going to the food bank and getting most of your food there.
And I think your settings for taxis is a bit high.
But it can be done. Certainly a lot easier with a higher income. But people have done this and left large estates for their kids (A relative of mine did and he never made more than $18,000 in a year.)
Slashdot Mirror
No, the lockout is because the longshoreman were refusing to do their jobs but were still collecting pay.
Anyone who refuses to do his job but expects to be paid should be rewarded with being fired.
The contract is up, they aren't trying to "break" it... and the issue for the union is that tehy want to have more people on staff who do no work but collect money.
Had some altercatiosn with Washtech.
The suck.
First off, they are totally political. They are only interested in furthering the democratic socialist agenda. They have no interest in hearing from members who are libertarian or not interested in union dues being spent to further interests that have nothing to do with the union (like gun control, etc.)
Oh, and thier president thinks its ok to force new workers to join the union (though they don't do that currently) or they loose their jobs because the "union created the job". This is so absurd- the union doesn't create jobs, and to claim that you have a claim on my income because you lobbied the company in the past is wrong.
Washtech has done great at organizing no-skill tech workers like amazon box stuffers and MS receptionists, but they have not done well at getting programmers and other skilled people aboard-- this despite being in an area that is overwhelmingly liberal/socialist.
They look just like the teamsters to me-- promoting mediocrity, taking a cut of your pay, and undermining your ability to lobby for what you want. (not to mention spending your dues towards political positions that have nothing to do with the workplace.)
That you think you can tell the quality of an employee based on a standardized test tells me that this is no a union I would profit from joining.
Hey, anyway, I have no incentive because I negotiate good agreements where I go to work.
But the fundamental problem is that there's no one fit solution for everybody, and unions are trying to say that it is- that labor is something that can be aggregated and negotiated wholesale.
You see? Thanks for at least trying, though.
I think there is the possibility that there can be organizations that support workers, but any time someone gets involved in your negotiations (The definition of union) you are in a worse spot- they never know all your abilities and also have their own interests to look out for at the detriment of yours.
Funny how my "PHB" have never done any of those things.
The last time I got laid off it was by a "PHB" who was making about what I was making (maybe less) and whom I have great respect for and would love to work for again.
This person also gave me a raise, while the economy was going down, let me take breaks whenever I wanted, installed a fooseball table and air hockey at the place of business, made a createive work environment and allowed me lots of freedom.
On the other hand, every union shop I've been in had a soured relationship between management and employees with everyone doing the minimum necessary and nobdy having any pride or joy in their work.
Funny how that is.
Think about what you just said-- they'd have us working for free if they could.
But they can't because we won't work for free.
That is what keeps our wages up.
A third party there to tell them that we won't work for free doesn't help us, and it costs us because we have to pay the third party. That's all a union is.
the idea that IT jobs will be minimum wage is down right silly. Just cause we're in a downturn you think that's the future of the industry?
they will never pay minimum wage because we would go do something that paid more than minimum wage-- after all, we can make minimum wage anywhere.
If arbys is offering a better deal than a tech job, then that company is in trouble. But somehow, I start to think you aren't really doing tech work.
Management at most every company, large and small, is not corrupt.
The difference is that market forces cause management to be honest and to pay a fair wage-- if they don't, the employees leave.
Unions are parasitical. They do not respond to market forces, and thus they will always be corrupt. They will always try to force companies to only hire union member,s and force new employees to join the union.
If there were 5 unions and you could choose which one you joined, then the unions would be kept honest... but so many people join unions for purely political reasons they don't pay much attention to the leadership and swallow what the leadership tells them.
No, I never said I wanted something for nothing. I just pointed out that gas isn't expensive because of corporate greed but because of government greed.
Here in the state of washingon, the road system is about %3 of the state total budget. THREE PERCENT.
But they can't be bothered to spend more than that and provided decent roads, so they are putting up an initiative to RAISE TAXES TO PAY FOR ROADS!
%3 of the current tax money is going to pay for it and %60 is going to pork-- people literally getting something for nothing like college and healthcare.
I can't tell you how much I wish I had to pay for my usage of state services-- cause if I did, I'd be paying only %10 of what I'm paying now. Cause %90 of what I'm paying is going to services I don't use.
And apparently none of that gas tax is getting into the roads-- since the state ran surplusses for 5 years (And spent all that money on stuff other than roads) and now wants to raise taxes to pay for roads.
Sure, unions can organize. I don't have a problem with that-- but the current situation is that unions are given special rights that violate the rights of the employees and the employers. And that is unacceptable.
The unions are TOO POWERFUL and have destroyed many industries in this country-- auto manufacturing and airlines being two big ones, but the steel industry is another.
The problem isn't that unions don't have rights in this country- they do, they have special rights.
Spoken like someone who has no clue what it takes to run a company.
Here's the clue you're lacking:
Just because some decision does not fit your agenda or make your life easier, does not mean the person who made it is inept and incompetent. It means that person had to take other factors into account.
The inability to do so is why you will never join his ranks.
Not to mention they are essentially a front for the mob.
And look at what they have done for education?
You can't do squat in a school without the union getting in your case, and what we have as a result is poorly educated kids.
Every industry that unionizes goes down the tubes.
Yeah, that's why my girlfriend paid %15 of her salary to her union. And after she got fired, she STILL owed the union money.
And she didn't have a choice-- they guy a father of three fired because he didn't join the union.
EXTORTION. And don't believe the lies about how little they extort. Even for unions that don't extort that much, its still extortion.
Wow. Almost every one of those is a reason NOT to have unions!
Who wants a rep-- you go talk to your boss directly.
And the state giving union reps special rights and protections-- that's just wrong.
Plus, and in the end, I will never allow a third party to extort part of my paycheck.
My job is a relationship between me and my employer. If either of us don't like it, we can end the relationship. Unions make the country less productive, the workers LESS happy, and the employers more likely to go out of business.
Oh, and since I started reading this, you marked me as a foe-- I haven't even posted this response yet, so you marked me as a foe because of my opinion posted elsewhere in this thread? Cover your ears and close your eyes!
I've never seen a union that was democratically run, and every time I've had to deal with one or been a member, it was NOT in my best interest.
They are great in theory- and any 10 or so employees can collectively bargain, they don't need a union- but unions themselves are a bad answer to a problem more easily handled by ad-hock collective bargaining. and cheaper too!
Of course corporations will work to reduce our salaries, just as we work to raise them.
But you can't get blood from a turnip-- if the wages don't make sense economically, the union certainly can't get them for you.
As to the racist fear of foriegn workers, get over it. If somebody else can do your job better than you, then he deserves it-- whatever his ethnicity.
Basically, tech jobs are pretty secure-- we will continue to participate in job growth and income growth and we don't need unions-- they would only make matters worse.
The economy didn't go away.
AND They stole a cut of your pay!
You should have reported them to the police.
How absurd!
You want to keep companies form hiring workers that you don't approve?
Its none of your business.
Its a matter for the COMPANY and the potential EMPLOYEE.
This is why unions are bullshit-- they prevent you from going to work for a company unless you pay them a cut of your salary. Its protectionism and extortion.
Why else do unions make it such that every new employee HAS to join the union?
If they really cared about human rights, tehy would rely on their utility to the employee making the employee want to join.
But as the local union thug said "why should they benefit from our work without paying?"
Yeah, its extortion all right.
Organized labor scares management because there is no class of individual more skilled at bleeding a company dry than the mafia.
Any business owner would be foolish to not be very concerned indeed, especially given the plentiful examples of companies that could be profitable but are never able to make a profit because the union is sucking them dry. For instance, almost every airline, car manufacturer, airplane manufacturer, etc.
And the counter examples are even more telling: Southwest airline is one of the few profitable airlines right now and they are that way because they DON'T have a strong union. They treat their employees right and the union stays out of it.
Any company that wants to fire me because of my religious beliefs is a company that I didn't want to work for anyway (but I'll be happy to take their stock due to this cause less firing).
Any company that allows its workforce to be orgnaized is foolish. And the laws that prevent it from firing employees that organize violate basic human rights (Right of free association)
If you have been reading the news, maybe you've noticed that unions are unreasonable (the demands of the dock workers-- the issue was over how many non-working stiffs would be kept on the payroll!) and that this country was unionized in a war of violence-- you didn't unionize, hoffa burned down your shop.
Unions have outlived their usefulness, been proven to be completely corrupt and not managed in the interests of the lawyers.
Only a fool or a sucker joins a union.
Whine about the ineptitude of organized labor all you want. When you find yourself paying $4.00 a gallon for gasoline to a giant oil conglomorate, you will be doing so because there was no powerful force like organized labor to counterbalance the power of oil company campaign contributions.
Uh, are you unaware that more than %50 of the cost of gas is state and federal taxes?
If you're paying $4.00 for gas, you can be assured that its because of taxes.
Of course, hiding these taxes in the price of gas is one way you get swindled by your government-- you probably support the liberals who want to increase it too, don't you?
All the while bitching about giant conglomerates as if they didn't compete on price, which they do.
Nevermind that you should find the idea of inviting the mafia in to extort protection money repugnant.
Who would voluntarily pay %15 of their salary to an organization that demands it under penalty of loosing their job?
And ultimately, when it comes down to it, the union will always negotiate the best deal for the UNION.
Only you can negotiate the best deal for you.
I swear by my job, and my pride in it, that I will never join any union, brotherhood, or "workers association", nor will I allow, tolerate or associate with any such entity in any job I ever work at.
My skills are my own soverign property-- no union, guido, flim-flam man, or other parasite will ever profit from them, nor will they be allowed to undermine my value by negotiating in my behalf.
As a FREE MAN, I know my value, and will never submit to the tyranny of others.
I will never allow myself to be in a position where someone can extort money from me under penalty of losing my job if I don't pay it.
I am a free man. I will not give that up.
No unions.
Video is a specification.
Most every company that has a CEO cashing in stock options also has lower level employees profiting as well.
Its a contrived example.
IF you were not allowed to leave, then force would have been initiated against you, and you would be justified in responding in kind.
Impressive. I find that kinda amazing.
I find it hard to accept that the Christian label does not include the calls for sacrifice, and the reliance on the bible, to the exclusion of science.
It sounds like you don't believe in either of these things, right? (By sacrifice, I mean coerced sacrifice. Libertarians and christians both believe in charity.)
Interesting to meet you, by the way.
Rand's position is that christianity teaches the denial of science / objective reality. Do you believe in objective reality? Are you going to base your decisions on science over biblical teachings, or the other way around?
Would you criminalize abortion, even for people who were not christian?
I'd like to hear how you reconcile libertarianism with christianity. I'm not going to challenge whether you are a libertarian-- I'm sure you've reconciled the issues I'd assume are there, and how you've done so, especially incorporating objectivism, while still retaining a christian identity is something I'm sure I'd find fascinating.
Ayn Rand hated anarchists, not libertarians.
Your example is silly to the point on not being worth responding to. Anyone in such a town can leave. The funny thing is that you liberals think that everyone who voluntarily enters into an agreement is not liable for that agreement. TANSTAAFL, but you guys sure seem to expect one!
I challenge you to find an inconsistency in Ayn Rand's Philosophy.
Of course, the CEO pay numbers you guys like to quote are not averages -- they are exceptional situations.
Oh, and that box you pointed to does not encode in realtime-- it only encodes 25fps, and a 320x240 signal, not a 720x480 signal.
Sad, really.
For much of its history, the US did not have a government run police force. Instead, it was handled by local organizations. some volunteer, some commercial.
And the people were freer.
Anyone who does not believe in liberty will not be able to conceive of living in a free society and so they will make fun. But its actually quite sad, really.
Yeah, if you waste your money you only have $50 a month left over.
Your Clothing, health insurance, car insurance, gasoline, car payment values are way too high.
Here's a more realistic budget:
$200/month for food
$250 for rent - and thats high, after all if you are poor you should have roommates.
$80 for a bus pass (and it would be cheaper than this, this is just the local, expensive, price.)
$150 health insurance-- IF you employer doesn't offer it.
$50 misc
This leaves $270 a month to save.
And minimum wage here is more like $7 an hour, and anyone can work for UPS for $11 an hour. so there's no reason to believe that someone would be making minimum wage for anything other than a short term.
Also, you can save an extra $100 a month by going to the food bank and getting most of your food there.
And I think your settings for taxis is a bit high.
But it can be done. Certainly a lot easier with a higher income. But people have done this and left large estates for their kids (A relative of mine did and he never made more than $18,000 in a year.)