Well, yes and no. Most of the Marshall plan got "american" money, but not necessarily taxpayer money. And you did quite well in ensuring the EU (and specially the Germans) would not compete with you in the following decades - that's how you got the golden years of American industry - by financing out the competition. Best cars, best medicine, best computers, best everything. Meanwhile, everyone caught up. Now even Cuba is a better choice than an average USA hospital, cities like Detroit lose to Japan and Germany, and even in tech - the last remaining American bastion - loses ground everyday. If you ever studied the rise and fall of the roman empire, you can easily see the comparison. Don't pat yourself in the back just yet.
Well, they've been trying, but not even the Russians are really into it - Specially after regaining control of Crimeia and the "no" for Turkey in the EU.
Yah. Lets everyone put aside their interests over 1000.000KM^2 and sing kumbaya. Your're a naive person (and I actually respect that, I have a kid).
Re:Give them the same terms they gave Germany
on
Greece Rejects EU Terms
·
· Score: 3, Informative
So just offer Greece the same deal we offered post-NAZI Germany.
It was done already. Both partial forgiveness and extending deadlines, that no other country got. Get your facts straight.
And in the end, it wouldn't matter, at this point. They lied in the Euro reports to get onboard (yah,everyone manipulates numbers, but they were obvious artists) to hid the problem. And in 10 years, they'd be - again - at this point.
Single currency has been working quite well for all those countries in need of a strong currency (Greece included). That's why no EU intervention-ed country had eg, a 300% increase in gas costs and base stuff like wheat. This also helps regulating prices and comparative cost-of-living, while simplifying the import and export process (eg. less costs).
Backed by a government well-known for having no money and bailing out on their obligations. The paper itself will have more value than the number on it.
This. And I'm Portuguese (so, in the receiving end, and often confused on the same boat as Greece). One thing is a country drowning (even if they shouldn't, they forged their statements to get into the Euro bandwagon), another thing is the people screaming "nah, we're good, we don't like red floaters".
I was. They were all sucking the american Marshall tit. Even now, not even that money would make Greece stand in a long-term as a country. And if you doubt this, you don't really understand how they got there in the first place.
But the greeks aren't an exception on that. In fact, they are quite nationalists. Just have a look at the vote statistics for new EU admissions in the last, huh , 25 years?
Iceland took the proper path in this matter, and everybody else should follow suit.
Bullshit. I've worked for companies valued bigger than the GDP of Iceland. They're like a speck of dust in the EU windshield. Even Greece, its like 2% of the total GDP of EU (and almost two orders of magnitude above Iceland). Citing them as an example is the same as saying that smalltown city X is awesome because they connected to their people and solved bankrupcy problems. It doesn't scale to real situations.
All fiat currencies are inflationary, it's something of a design goal, deflation being a greater fear than inflation.
Not really, its just that inflationary mechanisms are better known than inflationary ones. Its a bit like saying "chocolate or red wine is good for you" - a square or a glass a day. In excess, it will kill you. Like everything else. Inflation is "good" within a certain level (1-3% maybe?), above that is a problem.
I'd actually would want to see what would happen if they started printing Drachmas. Who would value it? The bankrupt state? You'd hit two-magnitude inflation ratios before you could finish reading this. Having your currency is nice and all if you're self-sustained. If you need oil, gas, edible products is terrible. And most greeks that somehow are still kept above the water level would rapidily sink.
Then there is the political side. Greece agreed with both the Euro and the Lisbon treaty. Its not like they can bail out on those without consequence (and the Lisbon treaty actually creates a federate state in the EU, so maybe the Greeks aren't really aware of who is in charge).
Mod parent up. At last some sanity. I expect that - within a week - the referendum results will be ignored. You know, a country that needs, huh, energy, needs to buy it somewhere, and usually those markets don't accept funny money (except the funniest of all, the mighty dollar).
If you'll convince the Germans to actually rebuild the Hellenic economy that they destroyed during World War 2
Actually, not even the repair money with interest would bail out Greece at this time. Greece did benefit from the Marshall plan, and even if they'd pay their debt in full today - ten years from now they'd be in the same place. You see, Greece isn't really a european democracy, but the personal feud of a couple of families that maintain control over the territory, with rampant corruption to a level its not tolerable even in latin countries. You could spend all the billions you want there, it won't solve the problem without major reforms (eg. imagine if 40% of the belgium workers were directly or indirectly state employees).
And speaking about Germany, half of Germany was leveled during the 2nd World War. As well as the south of Britain, and some northern countries. They're all doing fine now, so I'd guess the problem is deeper than that.
Slashdot Mirror
Oh bla bla bla! Debts have been zeroed out hundreds of times.
Yah, true. Have a look at Greece's debt for the past 200 years.
s/sort/short
Inflation may be good for a sort period and deflation may be good for a short period. It depends on the "why", "who you are", and "for how long".
Well, yes and no. Most of the Marshall plan got "american" money, but not necessarily taxpayer money. And you did quite well in ensuring the EU (and specially the Germans) would not compete with you in the following decades - that's how you got the golden years of American industry - by financing out the competition. Best cars, best medicine, best computers, best everything. Meanwhile, everyone caught up. Now even Cuba is a better choice than an average USA hospital, cities like Detroit lose to Japan and Germany, and even in tech - the last remaining American bastion - loses ground everyday. If you ever studied the rise and fall of the roman empire, you can easily see the comparison. Don't pat yourself in the back just yet.
Oh the tragedy! You're saying a bombed country got as much as 4x as an invaded one? I shed a tear.
Well, they've been trying, but not even the Russians are really into it - Specially after regaining control of Crimeia and the "no" for Turkey in the EU.
Yah. Lets everyone put aside their interests over 1000.000KM^2 and sing kumbaya. Your're a naive person (and I actually respect that, I have a kid).
So just offer Greece the same deal we offered post-NAZI Germany.
It was done already. Both partial forgiveness and extending deadlines, that no other country got. Get your facts straight. And in the end, it wouldn't matter, at this point. They lied in the Euro reports to get onboard (yah ,everyone manipulates numbers, but they were obvious artists) to hid the problem. And in 10 years, they'd be - again - at this point.
Single currency has been working quite well for all those countries in need of a strong currency (Greece included). That's why no EU intervention-ed country had eg, a 300% increase in gas costs and base stuff like wheat. This also helps regulating prices and comparative cost-of-living, while simplifying the import and export process (eg. less costs).
Greece will have to print its own currency
Backed by a government well-known for having no money and bailing out on their obligations. The paper itself will have more value than the number on it.
reduce it to whatever status UK has
Believe it or not, UK is basically number 2 in the EU. (Don't tell the french, though).
This. And I'm Portuguese (so, in the receiving end, and often confused on the same boat as Greece). One thing is a country drowning (even if they shouldn't, they forged their statements to get into the Euro bandwagon), another thing is the people screaming "nah, we're good, we don't like red floaters".
Sorry, "was aware of it". I'm not that old.
I was. They were all sucking the american Marshall tit. Even now, not even that money would make Greece stand in a long-term as a country. And if you doubt this, you don't really understand how they got there in the first place.
They is not the people. This is the issue, for half a century now.
But the greeks aren't an exception on that. In fact, they are quite nationalists. Just have a look at the vote statistics for new EU admissions in the last, huh , 25 years?
Iceland took the proper path in this matter, and everybody else should follow suit.
Bullshit. I've worked for companies valued bigger than the GDP of Iceland. They're like a speck of dust in the EU windshield. Even Greece, its like 2% of the total GDP of EU (and almost two orders of magnitude above Iceland). Citing them as an example is the same as saying that smalltown city X is awesome because they connected to their people and solved bankrupcy problems. It doesn't scale to real situations.
All fiat currencies are inflationary, it's something of a design goal, deflation being a greater fear than inflation.
Not really, its just that inflationary mechanisms are better known than inflationary ones. Its a bit like saying "chocolate or red wine is good for you" - a square or a glass a day. In excess, it will kill you. Like everything else. Inflation is "good" within a certain level (1-3% maybe?), above that is a problem.
Sorry for the bold. just realized it after submitting
I'd actually would want to see what would happen if they started printing Drachmas. Who would value it? The bankrupt state? You'd hit two-magnitude inflation ratios before you could finish reading this. Having your currency is nice and all if you're self-sustained. If you need oil, gas, edible products is terrible. And most greeks that somehow are still kept above the water level would rapidily sink. Then there is the political side. Greece agreed with both the Euro and the Lisbon treaty. Its not like they can bail out on those without consequence (and the Lisbon treaty actually creates a federate state in the EU, so maybe the Greeks aren't really aware of who is in charge).
Mod parent up. At last some sanity. I expect that - within a week - the referendum results will be ignored. You know, a country that needs, huh, energy, needs to buy it somewhere, and usually those markets don't accept funny money (except the funniest of all, the mighty dollar).
If you'll convince the Germans to actually rebuild the Hellenic economy that they destroyed during World War 2
Actually, not even the repair money with interest would bail out Greece at this time. Greece did benefit from the Marshall plan, and even if they'd pay their debt in full today - ten years from now they'd be in the same place. You see, Greece isn't really a european democracy, but the personal feud of a couple of families that maintain control over the territory, with rampant corruption to a level its not tolerable even in latin countries. You could spend all the billions you want there, it won't solve the problem without major reforms (eg. imagine if 40% of the belgium workers were directly or indirectly state employees).
And speaking about Germany, half of Germany was leveled during the 2nd World War. As well as the south of Britain, and some northern countries. They're all doing fine now, so I'd guess the problem is deeper than that.
I actually did. Maybe we have a different sense of humour.
Where can I unsubscribe from Red Hat propaganda?
You are aware that vanilla-js is a joke site, right?