Ok, now a serious question... is ANYONE out there using this? I've read the reviews, I read some tutorials, and my interest is sparked, but I want to here some testimony.
Ok, if any body has been keeping up with my posts, I am a windows user, a linux/unix want-to-be, and a programmer in academia.
I tutor for CSC level1/level2... which is now taught in java on my campus.
Both on unix (sun) and on windows... on both OS's, students use Forte to program Java in an IDE enviroment.
Obviously, the IDE is the only common factor, and students 'get-it' in both enviroments.
And these are NOT necesarily tech-savvy people... I'm having a hard time getting a lot of them to register the first 'light bulb' realization that hints they are 'getting' programming.
Right, people WILL continue to buy new computers, and they won't be installing new OS's...
But (a big if), there is Linux distro that IS a desktop OS (exceptable for use in place of windows), then OEM might use it... it would be cheaper. If OEMs didn't have to pay a MS tax, and could still provide what consumers wanted, why would they not go with the cheaper alternative?
And even if they didn't, but the potential existed, it could be a force that drives down what MS can charge for a averge-joe desktop OS.
If Joe doesn't care what his OS is, then why should the OEM's spend more money than they need to?
That would also bite into MS OS's revunue stream.
I think that one way or another, OSS will have an effect on MS bottom line... in the server market, and, eventually, in the Desktop OS.
Maybe not a big impact... but any market force against caused my OSS is a good thing, IMHO.
Our campus is using Jave / Forte. IDE for free! And it works... damn slow at some points, fortunately we have beefy lab machines.
I tutor 1st/2nd level CS classes... and I'm happy as hell they are using Java. Lots of free resources, and with good supporting classes, easier to get people to wrap their brains around... it can take a lot of effort to get those first few light bulbs to come on when people are just first diving into programming.
Actually, I do not recieve any spam, except the stuff I want.
I contacted all businesses that have my personal data, and told them I wanted to opt out and to not share my info with anyone.
I started telling every telemarketer that called that I wanted to be put on their do not call list and asked for their name, a phone number, an address, and a confirmation letter (didn't get very many letters).
I contacted all of the big 3 credit shops and opted out with them too...
And ya' know what? I don't get marketing calls or letters anymore. None. Zero. My mail was cut by, oh, about 70%. And I never get interupting phone calls over dinner.
I took about a 9 months of telling people no, but it finally paid off.
I'm fairly certain that I can attribute at least a bit of that to the FTC muscle behind these laws.
Advances in computer technology have made it possible for detailed information about people to be compiled and shared more easily and cheaply than ever. That's good for society as a whole and individual consumers. For example, it is easier for law enforcement to track down criminals, for banks to prevent fraud, and for consumers to learn about new products and services, allowing them to make better-informed purchasing decisions. At the same time, as personal information becomes more accessible, each of us - companies, associations, government agencies, and consumers - must take precautions to protect against the misuse of that information.
Here is their check list of pro-privacy iniatives:
Creating a National Do-Not-Call List
Beefing Up Enforcement Against Spam
Helping Victims of ID Theft
Putting a Stop to Pretexting
Encouraging Accuracy in Credit Reporting and Compliance with the Fair Credit Reporting Act
Enforcing Privacy Promises
Increasing Enforcement and Outreach on Children's Online Privacy
Encouraging Consumers' Privacy Complaints
Enforcing the Telemarketing Sales Rule
Restricting the Use of Pre-acquired Account Information
Enforcing the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act (GLBA)
Holding Workshops
It seems that at the very least, privacy is on the radar of the FTC... are they doing all they could? Of course not, not with big business pushing them around.
I don't necessarily even see where Passport would fall into one of the catagories above, although it is by not means a complete list.
All sorts of groups are calling foul about MS/Passport. I don't think it will go un-noticed.
Can I have some examples of increased civil liberties?
Lost Rights, a book by James Bovard, is long, thorough, dry, and depressing collection of the MANY losses and attacks on civil liberties.
American's today must obey 30 time more laws today than at the turn of the century.
Fedral Agencies publish an average of 200 pages of new rulings, regulations, and proposals in the Fedral register everyday.
A citizen's use of their land is presumed illegal until it is approved by multiple zoning and plannig commisions.
Since 1985, there have been over 200,000 properties siezed under forfeiter laws.
We have 2 million people in prison, a higher percentage than any other nation. Quote Mother Jones, "Since 1980, the national crime rate has meandered down, then up, then down again -- but the incarceration rate has marched relentlessly upward every single year. Nationwide, crime rates today are comparable to those of the 1970s, but the incarceration rate is four times higher than it was then. It's not crime that has increased; it's punishment."
I could go on, but the point I want to make is this: from what I can tell, we have been experiencing a net decrease in rights... If you could point to me to info that shows otherwise, I would happily read that, too.
There are obviously conflicting principles or public policies at work in this area of civil liberty in wartime. There may be some who think that here, as elsewhere, the more civil liberty the better. But neither presidents nor courts have ever operated on this principle. Wartime presidents are inclined to prefer claims based on military necessity to claims of individual liberty, and courts come to the rescue of civil liberty only after the war is over. There is a certain irony in this last fact, but the history of our nation suggests that both the nation and civil liberty have survived pretty well, if not totally unscathed, under it. Whether this is because of the actions of the Presidents and the courts, or in spite of them, I am not prepared to say.
So, we can expect to lose 'rights', and we can expect to gain some of them back when the 'war' is over. The problem being, our current war has no defined ending, and it has already been explained to the American citizens that this will be a long drawn out war full of secracy. The longer a war goes on, the more rights that are taken in the name of that war. It is esp. damning that dissonates is being actively suppressed, with the Bush clan warning our media to 'act responsibly' and advising against such things as playing BinLaden's videos. At the end of wartime, we never regain back all that we have lost.
Re:Framework, check. Applications, next.
on
Five Years of KDE
·
· Score: 1
Ok, sounds like a good start, and I have researched those...
I just want to be able to turn out simple apps as quickly as I can under Win32... for better or for worse, I can do that now, and in the future, I'd like to be able to do that under Linux, too...
They have been sueing and counter-sueing for quite a while, i.e.:
Macromedia filed a countersuit against Adobe in the U.S. District Court for the District of Delaware that alleged the invalidity of Adobe's '528 patent, and claimed that several of Adobe's software products infringed upon Macromedia patents.
Macromedia's countersuit alleged that Adobe infringed three Macromedia patents:
5,467,443: "System and method for automatically generating derived graphic elements"
5,151,998: "Sound editing system using control line for altering specified characteristic of adjacent segment of the stored waveform"
5,204,969: "Sound editing system using visually displayed control line for altering specified characteristic of adjacent segment of stored waveform"
And so on...
Some good info:
www.cptech.com has some good info and links on the two sueing and counter-sueing.
macweek.com seems to indicate the the whole thing is over the fact that 'that Adobe Premiere violates two patents related to visual display and editing of soundforms. Macromedia also contended that Adobe's patents in the case are invalid and thus unenforceable.'
This seems to be a defense patent battle, in that both sides are trying to invalidate the other sides patents...
Adobe and Macromedia have been fighting for Web designers' patronage for years. Now that battle will be entering the court system, as Adobe accuses its rival of patent infringement.
Ultimately, I would say this a standard battle of patents. Such things have taken place many a time, this time it just happens to involve software patents, and thus happens upon the radar of geeks and slashdot...
One item that caught my eye in the working draft is this:
(c) RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT OF PROTECTION TECHNOLOGIES. --
(1) IN GENERAL. -- The Institute shall establish a program at the National Institute of Standards and Technology to conduct, or to fund the conduct of, research and development of technology and techniques to provide security for advanced communications and computing systems and networks including the Next Generation Internet, the underlying structure of the Internet, and networked computers.
(2) PURPOSE. -- A purpose of the program established under paragraph (1) is to address issues or problems that are not addressed by market-driven, private-sector information security research. This may include research --
(A) to identify Internet security problems which are not adequately addressed by current security technologies;
(B) to develop interactive tools to analyze security risks in an easy-to-understand manner;
(C) to enhance the security and reliability of the underlying Internet infrastructure while minimizing other operational impacts such as speed; and
(D) to allow networks to become self-healing and provide for better analysis of the state of Internet and infrastructure operations and security.
(3) MATCHING GRANTS. -- A grant awarded by the Institute under the program established under paragraph (1) to a commercial enterprise may not exceed 50 percent of the cost of the project to be funded by the grant.
(4) AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS. -- There are authorized to be appropriated to the Institute to carry out this subsection --
(A) $50,000,000 for fiscal year 2001;
(B) $60,000,000 for fiscal year 2002;
(C) $70,000,000 for fiscal year 2003;
(D) $80,000,000 for fiscal year 2004;
(E) $90,000,000 for fiscal year 2005; and
(F) $100,000,000 for fiscal year 2006.
I'm not sure if this means that NIST would be directly responsible for developing the standards, but...
At least if the NIST developed (or played a role in) the standard, it would be open to all... probably better than coperate dominated creation method.
It seems it would take clear out to 2006 to really get things rolling. If it took NIST that long to develope the standard, how much longer would a 'digital device' have to be in conformity?
And it looks like there would be some grants available for research... I wonder if some OSS projects (University sponsored?) could get their hands on that... make something like BSD or Linux one of the leading edge embracers of the tech, thus ensuring that the source code was out there for all to see?
Instead, Gilmore told the House Science committee, the commission will recommend that a "cyber court" be created with extraordinary powers to authorize electronic surveillance and secret searches of suspected hackers' homes and offices.
It doesn't fit well within the govt. already existing structure, it duplicates many efforts, and it has yet to be determined exactly how & why it will function.
Secret courts... anything secret in the Govt. scares the crap out of me... and not only that:
Rep. Vernon Ehlers (R-Michigan) suggested additional punitive measures. "I think hackers should also be considered terrorists and sentences that hackers get should be in line with terrorist sentences," Ehlers said.
First there was the blurring and redifinition of the word 'hacker' to become the word 'cracker', and now hackers ARE being called terrorists!
How about lock-picking? There are all sorts of manuals on locking picking... most locks can be easily picked, but people don't do this for the most part. On top of that, people who are really concerned with security know that you need a decent lock (6+ tumblers) or it can be picked.
Not a bad analogy: if you want to keep something safe and secure, you use a decent lock. Having the info about lock picking gives you the knowledge to do so, and allows you to know just how secure you are.
The same could be said about software... and if you want a good lock, you educate yourself. MS makes bad locks... those locks can be fixed, but it requires the knowledge of the lock picking manual to do so.
Don't get me wrong, Linux, BSD, ect. can be a weak lock too... but with OOS, not only do you have the manual, but you can disassemble and rebuild the lock on your own!
Re:Framework, check. Applications, next.
on
Five Years of KDE
·
· Score: 1
Ok, that having been said, what is there for application development for KDE?
Is anyone out there using Kylix?
If apps are the key, then we need a quick-n-dirty way to make apps. Many times in my life I have fired up Visual Basic to write a quick program to save someone tons of time...
I said 'we might create more terrorist', and I didn't say it wasn't a good reason to go after these people: the point I was trying to make is that a 'war on terrorism' is sufficently vague that it has the 'potential' to be never ending.
And I agree with you: keeping up the pressure to ensure that we can do as much damage to terrorist groups as possible is a good idea...
What I am scared of is that Bush has declared a war with no ending, and now that is being used as a reason to do harm to the very freedoms that we're supposedly attacked on 9/11... I just have a very uneasy feeling about it all.
I don't even necessarily have a better answer, but that doesn't mean we can't talk about it and even disagree.
And I am simply armed... I have friends that COLLECT weapons... guns, knives, swords, etc... and nobody I know finds that to be strange. It's just natural to own a gun, rifle, shotgun here.
When Y2K was the latest scare and I lived in the heart of St. Paul, MN, I came back to SD to my small home town, because I knew that I could survive damn near anything. Lots of guns, lots of food, lots of land, and lots of places to hand out for a long time.
Most major cities only have enough food within their borders to feed everybody for 3-4 days!!!
It wouldn't take long for major chaos to break out.
Now I'm back in SD, and you know what: I feel safe, and at the very least, I feel prepared. After years of -30F weather, lots of wind, camping out, killing and eating animals, etc... it would take a damn armageddon to kill off those of us in SD.
I think that the goal is very simple and very clear: stop terrorism.
Ok, that is the goal, but the problem is that terrorist are a renewable resource (so to speak)... it might even be that for every one terrorist we kill, we inadvertantly create another 2 (or 3 or 4).
And who's definition of terrorist do we use? Exactly who is a terrorist? Only terrorist who kill americans? Or all of them? What about warring factions in third world countries that use terrorism against each other? Do we kill off both sides?
And how do you know terrorism is gone? When it stops? What if it starts again?
I think a concept not realized is that terrorism is a concept or an idea... you may kill all the supposed terrorist in the world, but the idea lives on and at any moment any pissed of group may choose to use terrorism as a weapon once again...
So, I honestly do not believe there is way to stop terrorism.
Only Sen. Russ Feingold (D-Wisconsin) did not vote for this... and he tried last ditch efforts to include privacy.
Even my own, Sen Tom Daschale (D-South Dakota) voted for this, and I too wrote him a letter.
Sigh, I wonder what 'unintended' consequences this will bring about... how it will be abused...
And, I wonder how it will HELP... this is an anti-terrorism bill. I'd like to see some follow up someday that shows specifically how these new laws HELPED fight terrorism.
I hate the comparision, but this 'war on terrorism' is starting to feel a lot like the 'war on drugs'... and open-ended, make it up as you go sort of deal with no clear goals and lots of shady undercurrents.
And no one defined moment where we can say, there we've won, it's over...
Slashdot Mirror
That's awesome! I've just got into using SDL (and openGL). I've been trying out both Visual C++ and the free Borland C++Builder Compiler.
I'm really interested in cross-OS compatability, thus I really don't want to use Visual C++.
Do you have a site? Or code? Or someplace you could point me for info?
Damn, I never even thought of doing that...
I just read the "what's new" page and I got e-buzz word whip lash...
They should put up some damn warnings or something.
i.e. : Build Web Services-enabled database middleware with DataSnap(TM) that scales and interoperates with your complete e-business solution...
Ok, now a serious question... is ANYONE out there using this? I've read the reviews, I read some tutorials, and my interest is sparked, but I want to here some testimony.
As a wise man once said:
"All things man does are in folly."
Ok, no "Score +1 Bonus" for this post.
Oh, and while I'm at it:
Me too, me too!
Ok, if any body has been keeping up with my posts, I am a windows user, a linux/unix want-to-be, and a programmer in academia.
I tutor for CSC level1/level2... which is now taught in java on my campus.
Both on unix (sun) and on windows... on both OS's, students use Forte to program Java in an IDE enviroment.
Obviously, the IDE is the only common factor, and students 'get-it' in both enviroments.
And these are NOT necesarily tech-savvy people... I'm having a hard time getting a lot of them to register the first 'light bulb' realization that hints they are 'getting' programming.
But they get both OS's.
Just a comment.
Right, people WILL continue to buy new computers, and they won't be installing new OS's...
But (a big if), there is Linux distro that IS a desktop OS (exceptable for use in place of windows), then OEM might use it... it would be cheaper. If OEMs didn't have to pay a MS tax, and could still provide what consumers wanted, why would they not go with the cheaper alternative?
And even if they didn't, but the potential existed, it could be a force that drives down what MS can charge for a averge-joe desktop OS.
If Joe doesn't care what his OS is, then why should the OEM's spend more money than they need to?
That would also bite into MS OS's revunue stream.
I think that one way or another, OSS will have an effect on MS bottom line... in the server market, and, eventually, in the Desktop OS.
Maybe not a big impact... but any market force against caused my OSS is a good thing, IMHO.
I think what Ami Ganguli is trying to say is that MS will lose the monolopy on 'sales' of new OS's.
They may still have a monopoly in % of PC with a MS OS, but they may have a non-monopoly on new OS sales.
Which would dry up their revenue stream, at least from OS's.
Our campus is using Jave / Forte. IDE for free! And it works... damn slow at some points, fortunately we have beefy lab machines.
I tutor 1st/2nd level CS classes... and I'm happy as hell they are using Java. Lots of free resources, and with good supporting classes, easier to get people to wrap their brains around... it can take a lot of effort to get those first few light bulbs to come on when people are just first diving into programming.
I agree... a lot of people probably won't - even more probably don't know you can.
Just wanted to point out it's possible... and it's a lot of work.
I'd say the quality of life I gained was worth it =)
Actually, I do not recieve any spam, except the stuff I want.
I contacted all businesses that have my personal data, and told them I wanted to opt out and to not share my info with anyone.
I started telling every telemarketer that called that I wanted to be put on their do not call list and asked for their name, a phone number, an address, and a confirmation letter (didn't get very many letters).
I contacted all of the big 3 credit shops and opted out with them too...
And ya' know what? I don't get marketing calls or letters anymore. None. Zero. My mail was cut by, oh, about 70%. And I never get interupting phone calls over dinner.
I took about a 9 months of telling people no, but it finally paid off.
I'm fairly certain that I can attribute at least a bit of that to the FTC muscle behind these laws.
The FTC privacy site is here. I quote:
Here is their check list of pro-privacy iniatives:
It seems that at the very least, privacy is on the radar of the FTC... are they doing all they could? Of course not, not with big business pushing them around.
I don't necessarily even see where Passport would fall into one of the catagories above, although it is by not means a complete list.
All sorts of groups are calling foul about MS/Passport. I don't think it will go un-noticed.
Can I have some examples of increased civil liberties?
Lost Rights, a book by James Bovard, is long, thorough, dry, and depressing collection of the MANY losses and attacks on civil liberties.
I could go on, but the point I want to make is this: from what I can tell, we have been experiencing a net decrease in rights... If you could point to me to info that shows otherwise, I would happily read that, too.
Supreme Court Chief Justice William A. Rehnquist has a book, All the Laws but One: Civil Liberties in Wartime that is about these issues. Here is a quote from a speach he gave at The Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars in 1999:
So, we can expect to lose 'rights', and we can expect to gain some of them back when the 'war' is over. The problem being, our current war has no defined ending, and it has already been explained to the American citizens that this will be a long drawn out war full of secracy. The longer a war goes on, the more rights that are taken in the name of that war. It is esp. damning that dissonates is being actively suppressed, with the Bush clan warning our media to 'act responsibly' and advising against such things as playing BinLaden's videos. At the end of wartime, we never regain back all that we have lost.
Ok, sounds like a good start, and I have researched those...
I just want to be able to turn out simple apps as quickly as I can under Win32... for better or for worse, I can do that now, and in the future, I'd like to be able to do that under Linux, too...
This is old news for these two companies...
They have been sueing and counter-sueing for quite a while, i.e.:
And so on...
Some good info:
www.cptech.com has some good info and links on the two sueing and counter-sueing.
macweek.com seems to indicate the the whole thing is over the fact that 'that Adobe Premiere violates two patents related to visual display and editing of soundforms. Macromedia also contended that Adobe's patents in the case are invalid and thus unenforceable.'
This seems to be a defense patent battle, in that both sides are trying to invalidate the other sides patents...
A few more links...
www.creativemac.com says 'Macromedia Fires Back at Adobe'
And an editorial by WebDeveloper.com... and I quote:
Ultimately, I would say this a standard battle of patents. Such things have taken place many a time, this time it just happens to involve software patents, and thus happens upon the radar of geeks and slashdot...
Ok, I know one of the things plaguing OSS is the lack of diversity...
What about starting a fund of some sort that could buy off (relatively) cheap sell offs of this sorts?
I know there just have to be some geeks out there with money to burn!
Seriously.
The Intel play microscope goes up to 200x magnification... problem is, it has a cheap ass web-cam type video capture device...
However, my nieces and nephews have easily gotten my money's worth of play out of this item, and it has spark more than enough questions/curiosity.
While it is a low-fi item, with crap software, I would have to say that I have enjoyed owning it.
Ever looked at the writing on an M&M? My nieces & nephews have... and it made them relieze many things...
One item that caught my eye in the working draft is this:
I'm not sure if this means that NIST would be directly responsible for developing the standards, but...
At least if the NIST developed (or played a role in) the standard, it would be open to all... probably better than coperate dominated creation method.
It seems it would take clear out to 2006 to really get things rolling. If it took NIST that long to develope the standard, how much longer would a 'digital device' have to be in conformity?
And it looks like there would be some grants available for research... I wonder if some OSS projects (University sponsored?) could get their hands on that... make something like BSD or Linux one of the leading edge embracers of the tech, thus ensuring that the source code was out there for all to see?
Here's what scares the crap out of me:
Extraordinary Powers!!! Ack! I think the whole Office of Homeland Security. is malformed idea.
It doesn't fit well within the govt. already existing structure, it duplicates many efforts, and it has yet to be determined exactly how & why it will function.
Secret courts... anything secret in the Govt. scares the crap out of me... and not only that:
First there was the blurring and redifinition of the word 'hacker' to become the word 'cracker', and now hackers ARE being called terrorists!
Beware Linux hackers... you are terrorists!
How about lock-picking? There are all sorts of manuals on locking picking... most locks can be easily picked, but people don't do this for the most part. On top of that, people who are really concerned with security know that you need a decent lock (6+ tumblers) or it can be picked.
Not a bad analogy: if you want to keep something safe and secure, you use a decent lock. Having the info about lock picking gives you the knowledge to do so, and allows you to know just how secure you are.
The same could be said about software... and if you want a good lock, you educate yourself. MS makes bad locks... those locks can be fixed, but it requires the knowledge of the lock picking manual to do so.
Don't get me wrong, Linux, BSD, ect. can be a weak lock too... but with OOS, not only do you have the manual, but you can disassemble and rebuild the lock on your own!
Ok, that having been said, what is there for application development for KDE?
Is anyone out there using Kylix?
If apps are the key, then we need a quick-n-dirty way to make apps. Many times in my life I have fired up Visual Basic to write a quick program to save someone tons of time...
I said 'we might create more terrorist', and I didn't say it wasn't a good reason to go after these people: the point I was trying to make is that a 'war on terrorism' is sufficently vague that it has the 'potential' to be never ending.
And I agree with you: keeping up the pressure to ensure that we can do as much damage to terrorist groups as possible is a good idea...
What I am scared of is that Bush has declared a war with no ending, and now that is being used as a reason to do harm to the very freedoms that we're supposedly attacked on 9/11... I just have a very uneasy feeling about it all.
I don't even necessarily have a better answer, but that doesn't mean we can't talk about it and even disagree.
I am from South Dakota, and yes:
I AM ARMED...
And I am simply armed... I have friends that COLLECT weapons... guns, knives, swords, etc... and nobody I know finds that to be strange. It's just natural to own a gun, rifle, shotgun here.
When Y2K was the latest scare and I lived in the heart of St. Paul, MN, I came back to SD to my small home town, because I knew that I could survive damn near anything. Lots of guns, lots of food, lots of land, and lots of places to hand out for a long time.
Most major cities only have enough food within their borders to feed everybody for 3-4 days!!!
It wouldn't take long for major chaos to break out.
Now I'm back in SD, and you know what: I feel safe, and at the very least, I feel prepared. After years of -30F weather, lots of wind, camping out, killing and eating animals, etc... it would take a damn armageddon to kill off those of us in SD.
And I even found a decent tech job!
Damn, that is hilarious. Sad and subtle, and deeply cynical, but f-ing funny, just the same.
Let's see if I can succesfully add to it:
Bin Laden is good, he is fighting the Russians, he is against communi... (get's handed note)... Bin Laden is evil, he has always been evil.
I think that the goal is very simple and very clear: stop terrorism.
Ok, that is the goal, but the problem is that terrorist are a renewable resource (so to speak)... it might even be that for every one terrorist we kill, we inadvertantly create another 2 (or 3 or 4).
And who's definition of terrorist do we use? Exactly who is a terrorist? Only terrorist who kill americans? Or all of them? What about warring factions in third world countries that use terrorism against each other? Do we kill off both sides?
And how do you know terrorism is gone? When it stops? What if it starts again?
I think a concept not realized is that terrorism is a concept or an idea... you may kill all the supposed terrorist in the world, but the idea lives on and at any moment any pissed of group may choose to use terrorism as a weapon once again...
So, I honestly do not believe there is way to stop terrorism.
Only Sen. Russ Feingold (D-Wisconsin) did not vote for this... and he tried last ditch efforts to include privacy.
Even my own, Sen Tom Daschale (D-South Dakota) voted for this, and I too wrote him a letter.
Sigh, I wonder what 'unintended' consequences this will bring about... how it will be abused...
And, I wonder how it will HELP... this is an anti-terrorism bill. I'd like to see some follow up someday that shows specifically how these new laws HELPED fight terrorism.
I hate the comparision, but this 'war on terrorism' is starting to feel a lot like the 'war on drugs'... and open-ended, make it up as you go sort of deal with no clear goals and lots of shady undercurrents.
And no one defined moment where we can say, there we've won, it's over...