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Groups Push FTC to Act on MS XP, Passport
BuckMulligan writes: "EPIC and a coalition of consumer and privacy groups have renewed their calls for FTC action to protect consumers from the privacy risks associated with Windows XP and Passport. In a letter sent to the FTC, the groups criticized the FTC for not upholding its statutory duty to protect consumers in light of the planned release of Windows XP. More information on the groups' previous FTC complaints is stored on the EPIC Microsoft Passport Page." So who here thinks the FTC is going to block Windows XP? Me neither. The other remedies requested (toward the middle of the letter) are interesting, though.
In WinXP how does one uninstall MSN instant messenger, I use AIM and don't know anyone on MSN IM so it has no use to me, all it does is clutter up my systray.
thanks,
-Jon
this is my sig.
XP is already out of the gate.
.NET servers, they had better start now (or maybe its too late for that aswell)
If they want to take on the other
----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
Let MicroSoft AND XP/Passport users learn the hard way. No one with any common sense would register sensitive data with Passport, and those that do are due for a valuable lesson.
Worst case scenario: this gets cracked big time, and suddenly everyone is hip to M$'s lack of attention to security.
Attention:
Please note, that due to a bug mod discussions at -5 are not safe from public viewing.
- F.
would you please please stop mister bad, evil company (which I support every day by using their products) from producing their product which will only do harm if I use it instead of some other viable alternative?
Oh, and by the way, I'm not going to pay higher taxes for your service, I'm just going to complain while I skim off the top of my income taxes by claiming my dog as a dependent.
Jeez. It isn't like there's a law requiring you to have a Passport account. Some people...
> Most recently, an error on Microsoft's Certified Partners page, a Passport service, made usernames and passwords available on the Internet in plain text.(FN10) Anyone could have used this information to gain complete access to others' Passports and Hotmail E-mail accounts.
This is not true. They could see the user name and password to log in into SQL Server database on the machine that was behind firewall, not the Passport user names and passwords. That SQL Server didn't contain any information related to Passport users. And since the machine(s) was behind the firewall, nobody could access it anyway.
I find it so funny that consumers apparently need to be "protected" from an OS. Really, they aren't protecting consumers as much as protecting the competitors of MS.
Not to say the competitors shouldn't be protected from a monopolized MS, but lets not beat around the bush, eh?
Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?
I don't like it, but XP and Passport are already out of the bag. There isn't a lot that can be done to stop them now.
With the current US govt. focused on the "terror attacks" I immagine that the DOJ will be told to quietly sweep this whole mess under the rug.
Which is it?? You can't have it both ways.
Does anyone honestly think the government is going to raise a finger against Micro$oft any longer? Once Bill got around to learning how Washington works and spreading his money around he wound up with more than a few politicians in his pocket. Look at what happend with the anti-trust case.
.Net), and Bill's love. Unfortunately this will be millions of people who don't know any better.
The FTC hasn't had the best track record in protecting consumer's rights these days anyway. Big businesses spend big bucks to have their way. Even if some sort of "investigation" is launched you can be sure M$ will be let go with a "stern warning" at best and a "no harm done" at worst.
Anyone using XP and signing up for Passport will get what they deserve, lots of spam, ruined financial records, fradulent charges (from script kiddies hacking into
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
Seeing how the economy is in the crapper right now, the launch of XP is probably seen as a Good thing by our government. In light of this, I seriously doubt the government will do anything to stop it. Conspiracy theorists, insert your 9/11 MS conspiracy theory here.
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
Microsoft be required to disgorge any personal information collected fraudulently and deceptively through XP and Passport.
I don't think I want M$ a) collecting my info and b) if they have it, puking it back up on me.
SmashTech - No smashing of tech involved
I recently purchased Money 2002 and it has you sign up for a passport ID on install. Then everytime you open Money, it asks for it again.
Now, this may be just a "software choice" and not "forced on by the OS" but it still leads me to believe the FTC could care less. This problem is too ingrained in the commerce/commercialism division of capitalism, the only way to change it is by regulating it (hoping that enough congressmen/women are not totally on the side of big business) (and regulation of businesses is another big topic, and has many problems associated with it) or leaving it up to consumer choice/free market...but face it...it's hard to motivate ppl who just want to balance thier checkbook/email/browse the web and could care less about the implications....
I think there is extremism on both ends. Too much regulation and you can sqelch true innovation, or hurt businesses, or create huge goverments. But if you rely on the market and the population to chose, well, lets just say its hard to beat a intel's/microsoft marketshare with the average complacent home user who might use his computer for 3 hrs a week... because in aggregate that makes a lot more marketshare than the 10% who realize that hey there are better alternatives out there....
I need a TiVo for my car. Pause live traffic now.
"The FTC has carefully considered the allegations against Microsoft and, more specifically, the Windows XP operating system and Passport data storage center. It is our decision that these charges are unfounded, and that Microsoft will be allowed to continue unimpeded with their designs. The reasons for our ruling are far too complex to go into at this time, but rest assured that we gave the matter considerable, unbiased contemplation. By the way, do you like my hat? It's made of money! Are you staying for lunch? We're having money!"
(Punchline uncerimoniously stolen from Penny Arcade)
Why do you need the FTC to block Windows XP? You can block it yourself using the method known as "not buying it" if you don't like it.
It seems to be taking some people quite a while to figure it out, but I've tried it and I can tell you it certainly works. It's considerably more effective than the method called "grubmle and moan to your friends about microsoft and then go out and buy their products" that most people seem to be using.
-- MartinG To mail me: echo kewyjlcxyzvjfxbqwh | tr bcefhjklqvwxyz
Open it up.
Go to Tools/Options.
Select the Preferences tab
Uncheck "Run this program when Windows starts."
Close the program down (including in your systray).
It now will not startup automatically.
Fear: When you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and know what it means
That page had a lot of other usefull tips as well, i'll hold on to that link.
-Jon
this is my sig.
Microsoft is not lame. It is very, very powerful. And has a lot of money. Its no coincidence, either. They can do pretty much anything they want without stepping too far out of bounds. As long as they take babysteps, they can control us. Next up: We'll have to go to a Microsoft Hospital to get our registration code implanted/branded into our skins to use the next version of Windows. And piracy will be impossible since Microsoft will be the military.
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
> Now, this may be just a "software choice" and not > "forced on by the OS" but it still leads me to > believe the FTC could care less. I would image you wanted to say "could'nt care less" rather than could.
Hail to the king, baby!
In the letter, I saw this:
Order Microsoft to revise the XP registration procedures so that purchasers of Microsoft XP are clearly informed that they need not register for Passport to obtain access to the Internet;
I think this is the most important item here. If you use XP, then you must log on to Passport for use of the internet, to go along with the bundled Internet Explorer.
Most consumers will go for Microsoft XP, since most consumers aren't aware of the alternatives. But why does Microsoft have to force Passport, perhaps they are afraid people will choose the alternatives there?
If I weren't nailed to the penis, I'd be pushing up the daisies!
> Now, this may be just a "software choice" and not > "forced on by the OS" but it still leads me to
> believe the FTC could care less.
I would imagine you wanted to say "could'nt" rather than "could".
Damn html formatted shit.
Its been 2 seconds since you last posted, get a life!!!
Hail to the king, baby!
After reading the letter, make sure to scroll through all of the signatures at the bottom. If you haven't yet done so this year, open up your check book and contribute to your favorite of these organizations. These consumer organizations can only continue to push the FTC if we support them.
Jason
What is this god awful bar at the top of my screen. When I click the X (assuming to make it go away) it takes me to some other page. DAMNIT fuck you slashdsot!)
What we need isn't a technical solution. What we need isn't government intervention. What we need is consumer education. We know what's wrong with XP. Apparently EPIC knows (although the original article is slashdotted). However, the average consumer doesn't. If they knew the problems and alternatives, they could make an informed decision.on whether to use Windows, Mac, Linux, BSD, etc.
I can't say that I don't give a fuck. I've just run out of fuck to give.
First, security details are a non-issue. None of the proposed remedies even address the security concerns.
Just reading through the proposed remedies I have to ask whether these complaints are just there for the sake of bashing Microsoft and propping up competitors:
"An investigation into the information collection practices of Microsoft through Passport and associated services"
...we don't trust them, investigate them!!
"Order Microsoft to revise the XP registration procedures so that purchasers of Microsoft XP are clearly informed that they need not register for Passport to obtain access to the Internet"
...it was clear enough to me when I installed XP that the Passport registration was separate from internet access, after all you have to be connected to the internet before you can register with Passport!!
"Order Microsoft to block the sharing of personal information among Microsoft areas provided by a user under the Passport registration procedures absent explicit consent"
...why just Microsoft? Shouldn't the companies registering this complaint also volunteer their own information sharing policies? Smacks of hypocrasy to me.
"Order Microsoft to incorporate techniques for anonymity and pseudo-anonymity that would allow users of Windows XP to gain access to Microsoft web sites without disclosing their actual identity"
...you mean like a fake hotmail account? No one's done that before!
"Order Microsoft to incorporate techniques that would enable users of Windows XP to easily integrate services provided by non-Microsoft companies for online payment, electronic commerce, and other Internet-based commercial activity"
...what's wrong with the other companies? Can't they write code anymore?
"Provide such other relief as the Commission finds necessary to redress injury to consumers resulting from Microsoft's practices as described herein"
...there's been damages? Sheesh!
not to mention the real kicker:
"Begin an investigation to determine whether Passport complies with the requirements of the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act."
Oh my GOD!!! Think of the CHILDREN!!!
I'm sorry, but I just don't buy this one as a legitamate complaint. None of these remedies sit anywhere close to fixing any known problem with Passport. Naturally the most obvious remedy is to open the protocol and allow third parties to implement their own Passport servers but that would be too obvious, wouldn't it?
Fear: When you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and know what it means
XP is already out of the gate.
Read up on anti-trust precedent. Google on 'Kodak Polaroid instant', or just follow this link [kodak.com]. Or this one [perdue.edu].
So let's see. A case that takes 16 years to play out. A final judgement that is worth greater than half of the winner's annual sales, and more than 5% of the loser's. An entire product line pulled from the shelves after nearly two decaedes of sales. A class-action lawsuit against the loser that results in refunds to any purchasers of the discontinued product.
Sounds like a good roadmap to follow. And more to the point of my subject line, proof that the courts have a history of deciding to pull products after they have shipped. So enough of this "it's too late" boo-hooing. It is damn well not too late.
Nope, no sig
All I want is to be able to 1) buy a computer from any PC manufacturer I want without ANY operating system, or 2) be able to immediately sell, on eBay let's say, the operating system and junk that comes with a new PC. And not get a nastygram from Microsoft, or the guy who buys it can't run it because of some serial number.
If I buy a car, or a TV, or pretty much anything else, I can strip it down and sell the parts and nobody calls me a "pirate". For instance, I sold a card remote and sensor from an old Discman on eBay. I can remove the tires, or the engine, or the ashtray from my car and give them away or sell them, then add my own.
Why can't I do this with my computer? Why are software companies allowed this power? Really, I want to exercise my capitalistic rights and avoid Microsoft, but it's hard.
I haven't seen this on the news pages yet, but I just read that Sun has gotten together with a bunch of other companies, 32 to be exact, to basically compete against MS and are calling themselves The Liberty Alliance:
o k/article/0,,10535_908411,00.html
http://ecommerce.internet.com/news/insights/outlo
The difference between this and MS is that the Liberty Alliance is made up of many companies and so the data will hopefully be more secure. In fact, that's one reason they formed it (so they say).. because they don't trust MS with all that personal info.
Anyway, I guess the larger sites will still support passport just because they don't want to isolate users. eBay is quoted in the article as saying just that.. they'll support any and all, even though they are part of the Liberty Alliance. Wonder who will win...
-Frijoles-
Let me see. The Passport prompt comes up the first six times. I have 10 completely clueless friends are going to call and email me every single time it comes up. I have 20 moderately intelligent friends who will call the first two times then email me asking for detailed instructions how to disable it. I have 50 friends who'll know exactly what it's doing and will send me rants every time it happens. That's 100 phone calls and hundreds of emails. Then there's my dad who I'll have to visit personally and connect through six times so he doesn't see it again.
That's a lot of my time wasted which could be better spent elsewhere. I wish I could charge those costs back to Microsoft.
This isn't about you and me, about those with the knowledge to avoid such pitfalls. It's for the unlearned masses, many of whom I'll end up wasting my time responding to. Just like this message.
-- If god wanted me to have a sig, he'd have given me a sense of humor.
Microsoft is a company in business to make money. they don't care about ethics. they DO care when they step over the ethical boundry, because it could harm their bottom line. when was the last time you invested money in a company that had a 90% market share and cares about the consumer? probably never.
did microsoft leverage their huge market share to influence the FTC?? Hell yeah they did, and their shareholders are banking on them doing it again. i wonder how many of the people on the juries, judgeships, and head FTC members are microsoft share holders. you can bet the aren't going to make a decision to hurt their bottom line either. expect microsoft to do more to increase their bottom line, even if it would be called "illegal" if another company did it. will they get caught, and eventually get in trouble? probably, but they'll beat the rap. they are the "Al Capone" of this generation. they will get away with murder until someone finds a loop hole. that is the american way, and the traditional american dream.
Why read the article when I can just make up a snap judgement?
I'd hate to be stuck between Microsoft and COPA.
She sat at the window watching the evening invade the avenue.
Whatever Microsoft does with passport is nothing compared to the fact that they're taking java out of the next version IE. They're using their dominance in the desktop OS/Browser market to promote .NET and crush java. Seriously, how many Joe Blow computer users will actually think to download a java VM from Sun and spend the time doing so? Probably the same number that thought to download Netscape once IE came out. What's next, taking out HTTP and replacing it with MSHTTP? Hello, justice department, Ralph Nader, are you out there?
i don't need the gov't to protect me from micro$oft, but it would be funny if they stopped XP, broke up m$, or just auditted the hell out of them.
Microsoft is good at one thing: spin control. Even if they get hacked and everyone's data gets stolen, what do they do? Take the blame? Admit they're not very good at this security thing? Decide Passport wasn't a good idea?
Yeah right. Instead, they can simply spin it as "terrorism". That's right---you and your data have been the victims of a terrorist-hacker attack. Computer crimes are terrorism. You are a hapless victim. Microsoft is a hapless victim. Are they to blame? Who would blame the victims of a terrorist attack? Would you blame the people in the WTC buildings for the attack that got them killed?
Now whose fault does it look like? Certainly no-one would blame MS. They've provided this great service and now for their insight, innovation, and generosity, are the victims of terror. Right. How many people will learn a lesson from this? They'll just want more draconian laws passed, harsher measures taken against these "computer terrorists".
Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
Anyways, here goes:
Search for a file called sysoc.inf and open it with a text editor. Look for a line with MSMSGS in it and remove word "hide" from the line(leave commas where they are). Then save the file.
Then go into control panel -> add/remove programs -> add/remove windows components and you'll see it in the list. Simply check and remove. Done.
As far as I've seen so far, removing it hasn't impacted any software on the OS, so don't buy any bullshit MS might give you about the flaming end of your OS as a result of removing one component. ;p~
"People should be allowed to keep midgets as pets."
- Gov. Jesse Ventura
A long while ago, in a weak moment, I was talked into using passport to use MSN messanger at work (peer pressure from our M$-based IT shop). I don't use it anymore now (actually I only used messanger for about a week before tossing it). Does anyone know of a way of un-signing up for passport? I've checked all around the passport site and cannot find a way of getting out and I don't want to be counted in their statistics.
What!?!? You mean my junk email account is part of some nefarious scheme to conquer the world?
Seriously... I remember when the complaint was issued the first time. I'm not sure how the FTC couldn't have been aware of it, but he who has the most money seems to get their way in the U.S. I've given up on any U.S. government imposed "solution" and I sure has heck don't expect the FTC to do anything in the next two days.
So really, at this point I just sit back and watch M$ inundate the consumers with inconvenience, hassles, nagging, price-gouging, privacy-invasion, competition-thrashing and generally any kind of bad behaviour they can devise. If the gov't isn't going to to anything, then let M$ be their own worst enemy and let the consumer decide. They've already scared my company into switching to something (anything) else.
At home right now, my machine runs Linux and tomorrow it'll still be running Linux. XP? Who cares.
wh00t!
Oh, yes, I'm just an AC who's post should simply be ignored by you holier-than-thou slashdot geeks!
There appears to be a now long-running tradition that any time Microsoft releases a new desktop there has to be a pack of opponents that gather to throw up issues and reasons why Microsoft should not be allowed to go forward with the release.
It happened with Windows 95 over the MSN icon being on the desktop by default, because AOL said that it would run them out of business (yeah, that sure happened.....)
It happened with Windows 98 over the integration of IE. Some would claim that that contributed to the death of Netscape...
Now it's happening again with Windows XP.
Is this a tradition in the making?
you cant win this os war by bitching at everything ms does. netscape tried that too - winning a software war with lawyers - and where did it get them? linux/open source will end up in the same graveyard unless you stop bitching and start coming up with new ideas that people will like. give the people what they want in an os. microsoft does and thats why i like them along with most of the rest of the world.
I bet Microsoft could even use the same arguments. i.e. "If you can do it, why can't we?"
Regardless of whether XP gets stopped or not (and at this late juncture I doubt that it's even feasible), Microsoft's practices need to be reviewed by the government. It's pretty much a given that what they are doing with XP is more of the same bundling that they were found guilty of previously (in short, this time they're attacking AOL, Winamp, Real, Adaptec, and more). If anyone in the judicial branch were to see this, it might make a much better case for a very harsh penalty against Microsoft.
Personally, I'd like to see them make the OS free and force them to open a lot of their proprietary APIs. That way, they can't continue to lock things down into a proprietary format. That should compensate for the amount of innovation they've snuffed over the last 7 years. Your mileage may vary, so I expect someone to disagree. That's just fine, I'm just stating my opinion.
Electronic Frontier Foundation for online civil rights information
but bad flamebait as well.
at least try to be subtle.
A: None. The Universe spins the bulb, and the Zen master merely stays out of the way.
Useless upgrades and software is what keeps the market from ever getting ahead and really realizing its potential. If people could buy something, and then have their money to buy something else, think how much better off they'd be. The only people who profit from this kind of unproductive behavior are companies that lack the ability to do better. It is easier to rip off your customers to get rich than really build a better product.
Is it just me, or is the fact that Thinkgeek is selling posters of screenshots of dynamic screen savers seem like the fucking stupidest thing you've ever seen? They're from iTunes no less:
h tm l
h tm l
http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/fun-stuff/5749.s
http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/fun-stuff/5747.s
sheer dumbfuck candy...
I read the letter and although I share their concerns I am afraid that a politician seeing this letter will dismiss it as a letter from zealots or unreasonable people. I think this because there are so many specific demands listed. It seems to me that a more generally worded demand (such as: "Order Microsoft to take FTC-specified steps that will remedy the privacy and security concerns, such as..."). This gives the FTC room to feel big enough to think what's appropriate on their own without getting what to the uneducated may look like a tirade of demands. Again, I repeat, I agree with the general sentiment I just don't think the way it is presented is effective.
As an aside: changing Passport is maybe feasible, but getting a politician to stop XP when it looks to many like the only current hope for reviving the tech sector is simply not going to happen. Why do they think that? It's a tradition, every time a new M$ OS comes out it totally uses all available resources so people/corps need to buy new PCs reviving the semi, PCB, OEM, sw market somewhat. Old story.
Hey. I'm not getting formkey errors. I want some more formkey errors.
Oh Please...
.net thing suck?
Doesn't anyone watch the news anymore? We've got bigger problems than some corrupt monopoly's dirty/idiotic policies regarding their new OS.
Personally, I use redhat 6.2 on a P233 AND XP on my T'Bird 1.3GHZ (yes, bring on the flaming).
Any complaining NOW is going to be drowned out by cries of war and MS's billion-dollar campaign to get the public to use XP. It's here, so deal.
Do I think the whole passport and
YES
Do I think XP is actually a solid OS?
YES
But what is the government going to do about some whining group when they've got to worry about Anthrax, War, and recovering after 9/11/01? Nothing. If you don't like it then DONT use it. Stick with Linux, Win2k, or (my favorite) BeOS.
In short, get your priorities straight.
or don't use it they are not affected by it? I've seen so many people posting "you're not forced to use it" or "it's optional". Some how this is a very superfisal view of the problem.
What about people that hold information about you and your life that do use it?
For example, my broker doesn't require me to use Passort, but he does use it to handle my accounts. What if his accounts fall into someone else's hands? See how this affects me. My information, that he was managing is now in the hands of a strange.
It scares me that now I can't trust the people I would normally trust with my information due to the possibility of them using Passort.
Sure. But you do have to pay for it. That's why the FTC's involved.
XP pro looks for a time server upon boot up. Also a multicast server, and lots of others i can't id the posts with cheops or etherape. I guess it wants to talk to the mothership [: ] Anyone else see that?? IP's available upon request.
I may be bad with names, but I'll never forget your IP address
Look at what they want... this is silly...
An investigation into the information collection practices of Microsoft through Passport and associated services.
Translation: We don't know if they are doing anything wrong or not, please go on a fishing expedition for us.
A revision to the XP registration procedures so that purchasers of Microsoft XP are clearly informed that they need not register for Passport to obtain access to the Internet.
Why? Should they have to say you don't have to register for passport to use Notepad too? Silly.
An order to incorporate techniques for anonymity and pseudo-anonymity that would allow users of Windows XP to gain access to Microsoft web sites without disclosing their actual identity
Why? Their MS's web sites... if they say, "Sorry, you have to paint your nipples blue to access this web site", don't they have that right?
An order to incorporate techniques that would enable users of Windows XP to easily integrate services provided by non-Microsoft companies for online payment, electronic commerce, and other Internet-based commercial activity
Hmm... I used Yahoo Wallet on my computer running XP and it worked just fine... doesn't that qualify for the above?
An investigation to determine whether Passport complies with the requirements of the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act.
Translation: We don't know if they are doing anything wrong or not, please go on a fishing expedition for us.
Don't these groups have anything better to do? I know they have to raise a stink once in a while to keep the money rolling in, but damn, they sure look like they are desparately grasping at straws here.
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
I have the easy fix for the whole situation.
Dont use anything Microsoft. Easy. Use linux and staroffice or koffice. dont go to msn.com (it sucks anyways), dont use hotmail (once again blows) and continue live uninterupted.
What I figure, most of the masses will follow along blindly and get herded into the pen as they have for many years now. For the rest of us, just dont play along.
.... of people trying to kill MS. Not by selling better products, but just plain calling "no fair".
Seriously people. If you want to hurt MS, stop pissing around with them. Start releasing products that are in fact better than MS products and you will hurt MS alot more.
Let's see. MS makes an OS. So why not write a free OS? Linux/*BSD are a good start but they seriously suck in the new_user/non-sysop department. They are hard to setup and often support far less hardware than MS winblows does.
Free media player? Winamp is good for mp3s and other esoteric sound files but sucks for video and other popular forms. There are no good competitors to Windows Media Player [well that I know of]
Free browser? Mozilla and Netscape are good competitors but often strive simply for MS compatiblity. I don't know what is so great about Moz 0.9.5[I'm using it right now] compared to MS IE 6 for instance. Mozilla just doesn't have enough features and stability to seriously take away from the big user base.
I know you're all going to flame me, but remember that 99% of the user pool for PCs don't know or care what OSS is. They don't care about fair process or anything like you zealots do.
If you want to hurt companies like MS you have to play their game. Release competitive products and actually market to the customer base that MS holds. Don't market your OSS project just to unix-gurus or OSS zealots. Try to make it a project that as many people can use as possible. Often that means pretty buttons and long user manuals, but thats what you have todo to win.
This court crap with MS won't really go anywhere. They will just appeal and appeal and appeal until 2135...
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
For that comic.
- 10 -23
http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2000
:)
I would like to embark upon a guerilla campaign to distribute hard-copy versions of a suitable manifesto in meat-space venues (e.g. starbucks) where the document would definitely not be preaching to the choir.
btw, i live in new york, so help is encouraged.
-anon, obviously
I cann't understand how this kind of post get rated as 5 - insightfull. The "don't like-it, don't buy it!" arguement is one of the most over-used argumenents here at slashdot at this kind of discussion.
I believe "don't like-it don't buy it" posts are going to surpass the "imagine a beowulf cluster of those" posts. Please, say something new, would you?
Anybody have any idea where this astonishing number comes from? Considering that the letter is written to the FTC, an American government agency, one would expect that this refers to the number of expected US customers. (It's not in the FTC's charter to consider Non-US customers). That would mean 59% of the US population not only has access to a computer, but is expected to sign up for Passport!
The population of the US is around 280 million. Subtracting off people too old, too young, too poor, too cheap, too afraid, too stupid, too stoned, too non-technical, or too incarcerated to use or have access to a computer, I wouldn't think there would be anywhere near enough people left in the US to make 165 million users of Passport, even if everyone else signed up for it. Where are all these people supposed to come from?
I think it hurts their case to throw around unsubstantiated numbers like this.
Open MS DOS and enter deltree C:, then reboot and put a Linux cd in the drive.
I'm pouring hot Windows XP in my pants! :)
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
There are an unusually large amount of mistakes on the site. For example:
"Through requiring driver blocking, Microsoft can stop the use of programs that are not specifically written for Windows XP."
-- This simply is not true at all. Driver blocking is used to block drivers that have not been digitally signed (or approved) by Microsoft. It is not used to block programs or applications, and furthermore, it is completely optional! All driver blocking does is present the user with a dialog box stating that the driver being installed might not be safe.
In the section dealing with the Windows Product Activiation (WPA) it states that "users cannot receive software support anonymously for the product that they activate and are forced to register for Microsoft Passport."
-- Users are not ever forced to register with MS Passport, but Passport does encourage users to register. Passport is an optional service, and all users have to do is press the "Cancel" button.
"If the user changes hardware in their computer, WPA may disable the software."
-- The software can become disabled, but users can call Microsoft to get it re-enabled. Yes this is a pain in the ass, but it doesn't permanently disable the software like this website implies.
"Microsoft XP is the newest version of the Windows operating system."
-- I might be getting picky, but the OS is called "Windows XP", not "Microsoft XP".
I personally don't agree some of the principles behind Passport, but if you are going to complain about it, I think you should at least have the facts straight. Either this is propaganda at it's worst, or someone just didn't do their research.
Disgorge appears to mean in this context that Microsoft surrender this information. Surrender to whom? They aren't asking them to delete the information, it appears they are asking them to share it with them
So when everyone knows your address, that's "privacy", but when only companies you do business know it, that's a "privacy concern". Mmm.
Worst case scenario: this gets cracked big time, and suddenly everyone is hip to M$'s lack of attention to security.
Not so sure. I think that the bigger possibility is for people to steal accounts one at a time. People will not fault Microsoft here anymore than they have in the past...
I assume that it is happening right now, but I hardly use Passport except for my email and that is not terribly sensitive (yah, and some people think all hotmail accounts are used only by spammers anyway, so I am all right).
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
1. Open %SYSTEMROOT%\inf\sysoc.inf in notepad
2. Do a find and replace to switch all instances of "hide," with "," and save.
3. Go to Add/Remove Windows Components in the Add/Remove Programs applet in Control Panel
4. Deselect Windows Messenger (and any number of other components.)
5. Enjoy.
(might as well mod this up so others know how to do it)
I haven't seen this point made, though it's probably cropped up in the comments. I had to create a (benign, minimal info) Passport account in order to use a particular on-line service. Later, for unrelated reasons, I wanted to remove all the footprints of the installation and delete the account. Turns out that, according to the MS support folks, deleting a Passport account must be done through an explicit customer service request -- there's no automated way to do it. In other words, your Passport is considered secure enough to submit financial transactions, but not secure enough to initiate an account delete!
The human-assisted deletion steps were easy and not a problem, but there's an implicit barrier created -- it's just hard enough to delete a Passport that many people won't take that step. Very clever way to inflate customer loyalty!
-- We all have enough strength to endure the misfortunes of other people. La Rochefoucauld
I don't get it, I thought Slashdot was against censorship but I guess when it's MS, it's another story.
Really.. whoever made that "insightful"? plzzzzzzzz
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
I've got an idea! How about I steal it from you?
...we need to keep an eye on whoever has Passport account #666.
In Soviet Russia, Chuck Norris will still kick your ass.
Careful, don't tell the truth here. The above post was modded down within 30 seconds of posting.
The reality here is that you tell the truth, a truth that does not "mesh" with the current MS bashing and you are outcast.
If these people love the government so much why don't they have more government involvement in our lives. I know I would LOVE to see more of the IRS, the FBI, or the NSA hanging around, direcly involved in anything that dosen't go my way.
Next time my viewpoint does not get acceptance, and the competition does (like in this forum) I will have the wonderful government ride in on it's white horse and quash those who oppose me.
You people are cracked.
Bah. Laptops are for people who haven't discovered books yet.
Here's what I want you to do: walk right out of CompUSA's laptop area, now. Just get out of there. Leave the store.
Go to the nearest bookstore. Buy a paperback book by Vernor Vinge. There. Now, for $6 instead of $2000, you still have a way to pass the time on the subway. And Microsoft didn't make a cent off you.
You are a very lucky person to have something like Slashdot, where you can receive free advice from wise folks like me.
and just who do you think M$ will blame for this big-time crack? YOU, the non-microsoft-family community.
this is the first step. M$ has made the threat. don't wait for the plane to hit.
Oh please. Firestones blowing were an exception. People don't expect that to happen. There isn't a long-term historical trend of tires suddenly failing like that.
Microsoft products blowing are not an exception. They've been blowing continuously for years and years. Before you buy a Microsoft product, you're already reaching for the KY ointment.
Would you buy a can clearly labelled "carbonated dog vomit, with donkey puss extract" and then complain to the FTC about the taste and healthfulness of the beverage? Bitching about Microsoft products, when the boxes are clearly labelled with the well-known company's name, is the same thing.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
I have a picture of Windows XP, naked and petrified!
Microsoft Security ... Isn't that an oxymoron like 'Military Intelligence' ???
but that's not the problem. all those other people out there are going to buy a computer, and since they're too stupid to build their own, they'll get xp and get passport.
secondly, those stupid people out there who are buying a product which will only fuck them over deserve it. if they can't build a computer, then they deserve to have whatever they can get, if they're willing to fork over the money.
i loved a post i saw that said "they're being forced to get xp because it's on new computers." of course, i don't see a microsoft squad dragging people into best buy, giving them a new comp, and showing them the register. then again, some people don't believe in choice.
but then xp will become the standard and microsoft will retain its monopoly. and, then i'll be forced to use it.
thirdly, even if it becomes the "standard," not everyone has to use it. use linux. work only for companies who use linux. tell people you work with to do so. if it means something to you, then work for it and don't go crying to the government to strike down big bad microsoft because it's hooking consumers.
that's another thing - people act as if microsoft has done something wrong. they are simply capitalizing on the uninformed, apathetic consumer. there are few windows zealots. there are many linux zealots. however, the windows marketing department is probably bigger, and they do more work in getting the flock to follow them. microsoft is a good company. linux is not a company - it's a movement. and a flailing movement at that. it has the potential to be so much, but no one is willing to do anything except throw insults.
Granted, they could pull the product, but the underlying issues are different. Microsoft isn't being accused of copyright infringement. They're being accused of antitrust violations. Microsoft's real danger (now that breakup has been cast aside) is continuous lawsuits from competitors. But the problem is, this isn't a copyright issue. It's a lot harder to sue Microsoft simply because they make a product that "sells" better.
The reason that Microsoft have a monopoly position is that the barrier to entry in the OS market is so immense. Windows is the result of twenty years of coding, legacy applications and market dominance against which you would have to compete if you're an OS startup.
Take, for example, device drivers. The first thing you'd ask when hearing of a new OS is "does it work with my hardware?" Because of Microsoft's market dominance, nobody will release PC hardware without a working set of Windows drivers. On the other hand, if you're developing a new OS, you have to write all the drivers yourself, most of the time going on your hands and knees to the hardware vendors who may or may not release the specs for their device to you.
And if you have overcome the device drivers hurdle, you get the applications hurdle. Each new version of Windows is very, very careful to remain compatible with the applications running in previous versions. Otherwise they wouldn't sell. Ditto, nobody but a few hobbyists are going to buy an OS without any applications.
When Microsoft was starting out, other people wrote applications for them. Visicalc was ported to MS-DOS. Lotus 1-2-3 was the IBM PC's killer application. On the back of that, Microsoft used their profits to build their own applications suite, and through bundling and leveraging their OS dominance, they managed to subsume the productivity applications market until there was only Office left.
People don't get trained in Word Processing any more, they get trained in Word. If you're running an office, you want your staff to be as productive as possible, so if you hire someone with Word Processing experience (i.e. Word experience), you'd better be giving them Word to work with, or they'll be working inefficiently, and complaining that the replacement sucks, even if it has identical (or better) features, because it works differently.
So if you want to compete in the OS market, you'd better also produce something that works just the same as Word, and interoperates flawlessly with it. This is tough, since MS Word is a constantly moving target of file-formats and features with a budget behind it that dwarfs anything that a competing company can attempt.
You'd better produce it yourself, too. Unlike in the early days of DOS, Windows 3.1 and MacOS, you're not going to find another start-up willing to write the next Killer App for your Operating System, because it's assumed no matter how good you are, you're going to fail. Nobody producing commercial software is going to bother writing against an OS nobody uses, they're going to be putting all their resources into making sure the Windows version works properly, because that's what people use.
In the meantime, do you have a killer app that you're writing that's going to revolutionise the industry? Your business plan had better include cashing out in five years, because in twelve months Microsoft will have produced a cheap imitation of your product and bundled it with Windows. In two years, their product will be close enough to yours that you'll start losing market share as more and more people stop bothering to download your better software, and in five years, you'll be left behind because you just don't have the resources to compete.
The barrier to entry is too high.
The only alternative OS that survives in the consumer realm is MacOS. It does so because the Mac started out before Microsoft had consolidated their monopoly position, and because you can still get Office on it. Even then, Apple only barely hang on to solvency by the skin of their teeth, again and again.
Let's name the most common "alternative" applications installed on Windows PCs.
1. Winamp - free, propped up by AOL/TW, threatened by the integration of Media Player and Win XP.
2. ICQ - free, propped up by AOL/TW, pretty much killed by AOL IM, both of which are now threatened by the integration of MSN Messenger with Win XP - if everyone's got a passport account and MSN Messenger, another IM application is unnecessary.
3. Netscape - free, propped up by AOL/TW, annihilated by the bundling of MSIE with Windows 95/98.
4. RealPlayer - free, installed with Netscape, threatened by the bundling of Media Player with XP.
That's a pretty scary pattern. It tells us that in the real world, where the only viable consumer platform is Windows, the only people who can survive writing software for Windows are either the writers of esoteric, niche applications that haven't appeared on Microsoft's radar yet, or people who are willing to give their software away for free (libre).
If you have to give your software away, you have to find some other revenue model, which is why all the non-Microsoft applications are covered in advertisements, "shop now" buttons and unwanted features that point to stuff that the software publisher may get some revenue from. And because of this, people are further driven away from the non-MS applications, because the advertising model is so intensely annoying.
It's incredibly anti-competetive. Internet Explorer, Media Player, MSN Messenger, Hotmail, Passport. None of these things are free. Whenever you buy a license for Windows, you're paying for ALL of these things. That's what bundling is. Take a product that people have to buy, and tie it to products they don't in order to undersell, starve and kill your competition.
If you prefer Mozilla, Quicktime, Winamp, ICQ/AOL-IM/Jabber and use your own email service, you simply can't choose not to pay for Explorer, Media Player, Messenger, Hotmail and Passport. The major applications I use at work only run on Windows, and thus, despite wanting none of them, they're still paying for Internet Explorer, Media Player, Messenger, Hotmail and Passport.
The only way my employer can do business is by subsidising Microsoft's effort to stamp out competing applications, even though we don't use, nor want the bundled software we're paying for. Microsoft have you by the balls. Anything the US justice department can do to loosen that grip, up to and including burying Bill Gates up to his neck by a nest of fire ants is fine by me.
Charles Miller
The more I learn about the Internet, the more amazed I am that it works at all.
I've been Notebook shopping for a while now, and XP Home is on Notebooks from Sony, HP, and Compaq. I've seen it on a 1Ghz Celeron Desktop and an Athlon desktop as well. It is already out in stores, and a little too late to block it.
Spend a little time on Usenet.
Also, if something like this were to fly, I'd want to see things applied universally. Everything that Microsoft is scrutinized for, every other technology company should be too. For example, to mandate that Microsoft allow easy integration of other e-commerce solutions would mean that other platforms should do the same, even for Microsoft's ecommerce solutions. I'm not a big fan of Microsoft, but I'm tired of these corporate shoving matches using consumer rights as a scapegoat. (I'll believe that Microsoft is the only capitalist pig the day that every penny Linus makes from Transmeta is given to charity). I believe in Democracy (my dollars are my votes), not guerilla warfare (cowering behind lawyers and the real leaders of the open source revolution).
The best thing about a boolean is even if you are wrong, you are only off by a bit.
What can't Joe do on a Mac OS box that he can do on a Windows box? Hard-core gaming? That's probably an issue, but gamers these days are just as likely to buy a PS2 or soon an X-box as they are to get a high-end Windows box for their addiction.
As far as other things go, the Mac is just as good or better than Windows. Joe can certainly connect to the net with no problem with all the basic functionality he needs like Web browsing and e-mail. If he's an AOL user, there's no problem there. Multimedia? QuickTime, baby. Word proccessing and spreadsheets? Sure, though unfortunately he still might run into the Microsoft problem there as he would on a PC. I really can't think of any other major types of functionality Joe would use, so unless he loves the "latest and greatest" games, a Mac will give him everything he's looking for.
With OS X, Apple appears to have made a serious effort to attack its reputation for unreliability. Moving from one GUI to another isn't all that hard. Within a few hours just about any Windows user should be able to navigate a Mac without a problem, and new computer users might even have an easier time learning the Mac than Windows. Hey, if Joe's adventurous, he might even start toying with the command line and begin to learn the joys of BSD.
I'm a Linux user, so I have very little experience with recent Macs, including OS X. However, I do realize that many users would much more readily switch to MacOS than they would any Open Source OS. So if we focus on issues like ease of use, reliability, and privacy, we might be able to attack Microsoft by encouraging those on the fence to consider Apple. Joe Sixpack might not understand arguments like "You should be able to install any OS you want on your PC," but would probably relate more to "You should have the right to make sure no one else can look at your private stuff on your computer" in terms of staying away from an OS that heavily pushes (though not quite forces) a suspect Passport application onto its users. I'm going to tell my parents to get a Mac if they buy another computer since they certainly would not want to contemplate a scenario where 5 years down the road they might have to pay Microsoft an annual fee just to boot their computer.
Come on Apple, I can't think of a better time to hit back at Microsoft than right now. Even "mainstream" users are starting to get fed up with Microsoft's incompetence and arrogance. With a decent marketing campaign, I sincerely believe that Apple could get some Windows users to switch to Mac once they decide they need a new computer of some sort. I think we Slashdotters who don't like Microsoft need to adopt the "an enemy of my enemy is my friend" mantra and try to get people away from Windows in any way possible. When people are completely unfamiliar with or won't trust open source, they probably would be more willing to try a Mac.
Just out of curiosity, I checked out the Hotmail version of the Passport signup page.
What I found there was truly frightening, given the context of what's been discussed here. Check out the "Secret Question and Answer" section. I dunno, maybe it's just me, but the idea of them prompting Joe Sixpack to enter any part of his Credit Card info or SSN...
In Soviet Russia, Chuck Norris will still kick your ass.
I know this is not the answer you're looking for, but I've been very succesful with option 3: build your own. You may have to find somebody with the technical know-how to help you, but building your own from scratch does mean you will end up with a computer without an operating system.
The incident wasn't a secret event, it had nothing black about it at all. It was an experiment, yes, but uh, gee, aren't a few bugs to be expected when you test something brandnew?
If there was any reason to be shocked over the Yorktown, it's the people cared. Might as well care that Linus didn't get Linux 2.4 right the first time.
What was shocking to me about the Yorktown incident (thanks for the memory-jog there) was that they were using an Access database with a compiled VB client in a mission critical application, when it had been well-documented for years that a client crash would corrupt the database. I was also somewhat surprised that the crash of a database client was sufficient to take out vredir.dll, thus bringing down an entire network.
utter rubbish
Wow.. what a profound statement.. I am now ready to have Windows NTCEXPABCDEFGHIJKLMNOP installed via wetwire to my brain.. M$ can do the thinking for me. how can i start paying for the same software over and over and over again asap? M$ is really hurting for $ right now so i'm ready to donate my milk money.
Much as I think XP is crap, it seems really absurd to complain to the FTC about it. I mean, when Morris exploited fingerd on countless UNIX boxes back in the 80's to propogate his worm, was it the FTC people complained to? If, prior to people breaking their fingers on their machines, I'd written something to see who was logged on all over the country, would people go screaming to the FTC? (Actually, I did monitor a few people with scripts that called finger, and would even rwall them with ascii art--well after the Morris worm.)
Everybody knows that XP is just another big brother waiting to happen, and anybody that uses it deserves everything they get. Let the free market reign.
Say something new??
Whats more important, saying something new or saying something right?
-- MartinG To mail me: echo kewyjlcxyzvjfxbqwh | tr bcefhjklqvwxyz