Actually, in smaller, more rural areas, I'd think this would make a difference as well for emergency personel. That way they don't need to bother to stop/slow down in an intersection where there's no cars sitting there anyway...
Well, Medievia kind of had to make some radical changes because of the licensing involved and the fact that it started out as a DIKU mud.;) (I think it was DIKU, it's been years since I've played and it got removed from the "credits" command and everywhere else even more years ago.)
I agree though, Med was fun for me when your one player could actually do something and make a difference.
I love online games for the actual interaction with people instead of lame scripted opponants, but I hate being forced to group up with tons and tons of people just to be able to level (meaning it's an actual code enforced requirement, like it is now on Med).
Still, I don't know many other muds out there that could handle 400 people banding together to take out a killer dragon that had been terrorizing the realm. Great memories...
Ozy was an amazing coder, before he felt he had to leave over the licensing thing...
Well, I don't know about that particular mud, but I have played mud's 10 years ago, and there were a decent amount around that were still more advanced than any MMORPGs out today - skill wise, playerwise, classwise... Just about every way but graphics.
These days, it's no comparison. There are muds out there that blow away any other MMORPG out there as far as gameplay goes, except for graphics. Just my humble opinion also though.;)
"Going on massive (50+ player) guild raids in EQ. MUDs simply couldnt top that."
Well, yeah, things tend to be on a smaller scale just because you wouldn't be able to see or keep up with all the text whizzing by, but not always.
I've been involved with quite a few MUD "adventures" that have directly involved at least 100 players. And yes, botting was highly illegal also. One got up to 350-400 according to the admins... sure looked that way to me, although I was only able to track about 300 myself when I reviewed the log - not that I'd have been able to see all of them anyway... Talk about hitting the server! lol. Events that large do tend to be few and far between though.
Anyway, it all depends on the game and if it's any fun for you as a player, graphics or no.:)
"Q21: What's gives with the "Howto" format of this site?
A: We felt that the simple, familiar and straightforward layout of the classic Mini-Howto was perfect for this, since there's no goofy graphics to slow you down, and it's easy to navigate. The alternative was a "modern" hacker site with unreadable tiny graphic text, more flash than the Macromedia site, loud blinking crap, and stupid can opener like sound effects on every link. (Sorry if this describes your site and I offended you, but remember, I'm old skewl and if I can't browse it in lynx I probably won't be browsing it -- Cobras)"
What you don't seem to realize is that this affects "users" too. They just don't know how or why their widgets broke. It'll look superficially fine, but those that frequently work with the systems will realize that there's something up. That's why sysadmins got pissed, because they do know. So just let them fix things instead of raising the cry, "But what about the users?!?!" *shudders* Reminds me of people whinging, "But what about the children?!?".
Why do you think sysadmins got so upset and going through all this trouble for? The users.:P
And oh, sysadmins are users too when they're off the job - we like things to "just work" too! *sniffs*
Anyway, why is it wrong to think that most of the decisions should be made by those actually qualified to make them? After all, others don't exactly know what's really going on, do they?:P I don't want some ignorant idiot supervising the nuclear reactor in my backyard, thank you! Good grief...
And "Google Tracking Frequent Users" is a bit inaccurate as a title - google tracks all users (how else would they know when you have become a frequent user?)
Yes, having the source code shouldn't be of any help for cheaters if the gamebase is well designed and bug free. That's how real security software works after all. (think crypto)
However, even the slightest slipup can eventually be found (and - granted - patched) if the source is available. It all depends on the software architecture.
No doubt! If you can't even trust your own company to deal ethically and thoughtfully with security problems...:( I know my respect for @Stake (or what there was of it) has dropped markedly, but now I have to wonder at the validity of their posted info if they have that much of a problem.
I was in a similar difficult situation just a month ago with a known and severe security vulnerability that affected one of my company's major clients. I got a little browbeating for "making a big deal out of nothing" by PHB's that don't know anything about network security. After the lead engineer of their company was notified a few hours later however, he swiftly rectified the error with profuse apologies all around - it was a simple oversight.
Still - I'm glad my company didn't make me force the issue, as some of the more PHB types just wanted me shut up so I didn't rock the boat. I'd have had to leave - as it just wouldn't have been ethical to our mutual customers...
Just meant that it seemed to me to be more of a convienience thing for Californians to use. After all, you could just do things the normal way. And Lindows at least got the message out there a bit.;)
Hey, basically anything electronic counts, that's why I was slightly irked when the law passed.
Granted, it's a good step forward, but imho it just opens the door for bs "what constitutes and electronic signature" crap. I was irritated that Clinton didn't at least put in a crypto requirement. It wouldn't have had to be as specific as to list a protocol, only to mention that it had to be a credible cryptographic signature technique.
I'd legally sign this with my real name just typed in, but I don't want midnight phone calls from lame/. cranks.;)
Hrm, I doubt you'd get modded down by linux zealots...
You'd get modded down by rational people for being an idiot making non-sensical claims, by spelling nazis for the obvious, and grammar nazis by the same.;)
Trolling the trolls that mod down people who bash linux? (/me tries to figure out that one) Oh, whatever, I could care less...
Hrm, this sounds good, but I'm having trouble actually comprehending what you're saying...
"I asked about this in the original story - how can they file claims for people when they aren't even giving people access to the documentation outlining the rules, qualifications and benefits of the class action?"
And this has to do with the site how? What if people have been following things, and don't need all the crap, why should they be required to wade through the pages that they're not going to read anyway?
"I'm sure they did it for the tons of free publicity..."...
So freakin' what? Who says you have to go through them anyway? If I were in Cali, I'd jump at the chance cause it'd cut out all of the runaround bullshit that MS puts you through in the first place... and if I didn't like the product, I'd just do something else.:P
Heh, reminds me, I actually wrote a quick program in perl once to do a statisical anyalsis on die rolls that proved the difference between odds and cumulative odds.
Granted, it could've been mucho ugly if I hadn't written it out the way I did with and with much commenting.
But man was fun to provide a functional program to make a point, and one that anyone off the street could read and comprehend easily. Would actually run through a half million loop iterations to prove the odds check too.;)
I'm posting WAY too much in this thread, but your comparison of perl to VB just made me vaguely queasy.;)
"The apparent usefulness of Perl (like Visual Basic) is only indicative of the large number of modules it incorporates."
I don't think that the flexibility of a programming language can be in any way be affected by the ancillary code produced later. The flexability or usefulness of a language, I think, is apparent in what you can do with it, period.
Basically either you can do something or you can't. I'll admit to not knowing anything major about VB - I've quite intentionally stayed as far away from it as I can... but I do know that I've never had a problem forming any type of "construct" that I've ever really needed. I'm a bit curious as to what's being considered a "construct" in this context...
*shrugs* I'll just post my thoughts and move on...
I just got a bit irked at comparing perl to VB I guess. I tend to think perl is an extremely good balance between flexibility of the language itself and coding efficiency / development time.
Putting together a multithreaded and multiprocessor aware application to serve basically any type of content you want and can communicate with anything you can think of at either the raw socket level (or even act at as high level as a web server) in a matter of minutes - you'll have to admit - is very flexible for what most people consider a scripting language.
I've got pretty descent sized perl library that I've written myself as required for things like EDI translation and mapping, hardware/platform detection, networking, database interface, and various other sundry client/server processes though. Even without those, you can get the basics in place in very short order...
I've do have a very obvious professional bent towards data manipulation and basic networking though.;)
Ug, I care.;) That's almost exactly one reason I don't use some of the crappy CPAN modules out there.
If I can't figure out what's going on in them, how the hell do I know it works as advertised with a quick scan?
I'd rather just take a quick glance at the (whatever) code than worrying about adding yet another dependancy, and one that probably takes more time to read/convert/integrate than to just do it yourself from scratch.
That being said, there are a hell of a lot of great modules out there!
If you don't know a certain EDI standard, or telnet options, GA and ANSI escape sequences, or whatever tedious little routine you're trying to add in that requires some of the more esoteric knowledge out there, it can be a tremendously useful advantage - if the code is readable!
Time::TrulyRandom (I think that's it anyway - the hardware inaccuracy based one), and some of the core networking, crypto, and xml munging kits have been absolutely invaluable to me in some of my endeavors... and have helped me to really understand what's going on in my programs instead of just taking someone else's word for it.
Nah, regexes aren't the main 'cause (imho). Basic regex notation (what probably %90 of people that use 'em out there use) is pretty easily recognizable as the core syntaxes once you've spent a little time grubbing through docs. It's just that there are a lot of shortcut notations and alternate usages possible with basically everything else.
One of perl's little catchphrases is "There's more than one way to do it." The language is extremely flexable.
I totally agree with the poster a few levels up, the only time I really grind out stuff that's essentially horrible looking anymore (been compared to Vogon poetry and line noise a few times too) is when I'm under serious time constraints, am just writing a one use program and don't care, or just plain need to wrap things down as tightly as possible for speed/memory reasons and can't figure out a way to do it more efficiently......and then documentation is semi-important if you walk away from the program for long enough to become unfamiliar with it's entire code structure. I've looked back at some old programs where I've not left comments and it prolly took me 10 times longer to figure out what was going on than to just type out the code. Bad programming essentially.:P
It's very possible to write code that basically does look like line noise... with the caveat that it's not especially easy to write really really obfuscated code if that's what you're intentionally going for, as even the author has to be able to recognize what the hell is going on as well - and usually relies on their own ancilliary documentation for stuff like the obfuscated perl contest.
Mostly I tend to think this is just done by geeks for brag or impression purposes, just like schoolyard bullies get their kicks by pushing around others on the schoolyard 'cause they're bigger or whatever. Not that I'm saying it's intended in the same spirit, but it's the same "gee, look what I can do and you can't (even understand what I'm doing!)" type of thing.;)
That being said, I just love perl. Quick to write, execute, and very flexable and powerful. I'm glad that readable code has gotten back in vogue again in the last (insert semi-long time frame here) or so, it makes things so much easier to read/debug/improve and use.;)
When governments push anything, it is usually all the better to govern us with. =/(emphasis mine)
Are you insane?
Maybe I just have a more positive attitude than you do, but if generally - most people - can publish anything they want, there is at least the opportunity of dissenting opinions, debate, and public opinion...
What I fear most, (troll)especially under Bush(/troll), is that dissenting opinions will be outlaw, and punishable under the majority - just because they are ill informed.
In my (not so humble) opinion, if the majority of people are free to express their opinion on things, then the aware and willing will seek out differing opinions in order to be better informed, and reject the limitations of tyranny - everywhere. Information "wants" to be free, and in my opinion, the better informed people are as to the situations that affect their lives, the better off they are to make their own decisions. Does anyone else have a better definition of democracy?
Maybe I'm hopelessly naive... but I sincerely hope not...
(and I do have my points in thinking that the 'net is more egalitarian than broadcast TV is, especially since most of the latter comes from satellite transmission - I believe...)
Slashdot Mirror
Actually, in smaller, more rural areas, I'd think this would make a difference as well for emergency personel. That way they don't need to bother to stop/slow down in an intersection where there's no cars sitting there anyway...
Well, Medievia kind of had to make some radical changes because of the licensing involved and the fact that it started out as a DIKU mud. ;) (I think it was DIKU, it's been years since I've played and it got removed from the "credits" command and everywhere else even more years ago.)
I agree though, Med was fun for me when your one player could actually do something and make a difference.
I love online games for the actual interaction with people instead of lame scripted opponants, but I hate being forced to group up with tons and tons of people just to be able to level (meaning it's an actual code enforced requirement, like it is now on Med).
Still, I don't know many other muds out there that could handle 400 people banding together to take out a killer dragon that had been terrorizing the realm. Great memories...
Ozy was an amazing coder, before he felt he had to leave over the licensing thing...
Well, I don't know about that particular mud, but I have played mud's 10 years ago, and there were a decent amount around that were still more advanced than any MMORPGs out today - skill wise, playerwise, classwise... Just about every way but graphics.
;)
:)
These days, it's no comparison. There are muds out there that blow away any other MMORPG out there as far as gameplay goes, except for graphics. Just my humble opinion also though.
"Going on massive (50+ player) guild raids in EQ. MUDs simply couldnt top that."
Well, yeah, things tend to be on a smaller scale just because you wouldn't be able to see or keep up with all the text whizzing by, but not always.
I've been involved with quite a few MUD "adventures" that have directly involved at least 100 players. And yes, botting was highly illegal also. One got up to 350-400 according to the admins... sure looked that way to me, although I was only able to track about 300 myself when I reviewed the log - not that I'd have been able to see all of them anyway... Talk about hitting the server! lol. Events that large do tend to be few and far between though.
Anyway, it all depends on the game and if it's any fun for you as a player, graphics or no.
Once in a while... once in a while.
Might be interesting to see some speed comparisons with this new build...
Was just pointing out the rather sad and faulty logic in the section I quoted. ;)
"Q21: What's gives with the "Howto" format of this site?
A: We felt that the simple, familiar and straightforward layout of the classic Mini-Howto was perfect for this, since there's no goofy graphics to slow you down, and it's easy to navigate. The alternative was a "modern" hacker site with unreadable tiny graphic text, more flash than the Macromedia site, loud blinking crap, and stupid can opener like sound effects on every link. (Sorry if this describes your site and I offended you, but remember, I'm old skewl and if I can't browse it in lynx I probably won't be browsing it -- Cobras)"
Oh, nothing at all like this then huh?
*laughs*
Funny, without admins, no user would know what they were missing on any computer network. ;)
Wow, sad.
:P
:P I don't want some ignorant idiot supervising the nuclear reactor in my backyard, thank you! Good grief...
What you don't seem to realize is that this affects "users" too. They just don't know how or why their widgets broke. It'll look superficially fine, but those that frequently work with the systems will realize that there's something up. That's why sysadmins got pissed, because they do know. So just let them fix things instead of raising the cry, "But what about the users?!?!" *shudders* Reminds me of people whinging, "But what about the children?!?".
Why do you think sysadmins got so upset and going through all this trouble for? The users.
And oh, sysadmins are users too when they're off the job - we like things to "just work" too! *sniffs*
Anyway, why is it wrong to think that most of the decisions should be made by those actually qualified to make them? After all, others don't exactly know what's really going on, do they?
And "Google Tracking Frequent Users" is a bit inaccurate as a title - google tracks all users (how else would they know when you have become a frequent user?)
Cookies.
Yeah, that is a bit of an inane idea, isn't it?
You've obviously been out of college for a few years, huh? ;)
Yes, having the source code shouldn't be of any help for cheaters if the gamebase is well designed and bug free. That's how real security software works after all. (think crypto)
However, even the slightest slipup can eventually be found (and - granted - patched) if the source is available. It all depends on the software architecture.
No doubt! If you can't even trust your own company to deal ethically and thoughtfully with security problems... :( I know my respect for @Stake (or what there was of it) has dropped markedly, but now I have to wonder at the validity of their posted info if they have that much of a problem.
I was in a similar difficult situation just a month ago with a known and severe security vulnerability that affected one of my company's major clients. I got a little browbeating for "making a big deal out of nothing" by PHB's that don't know anything about network security. After the lead engineer of their company was notified a few hours later however, he swiftly rectified the error with profuse apologies all around - it was a simple oversight.
Still - I'm glad my company didn't make me force the issue, as some of the more PHB types just wanted me shut up so I didn't rock the boat. I'd have had to leave - as it just wouldn't have been ethical to our mutual customers...
Yeah, minimum publishing, like say a little blurb in some nationally syndicated rag with maybe 20k readership if you're lucky.
;)
You really have to wonder about class action suits and whether or not they really do any good in general sometimes...
Yeah, as if that whole 2k matters. LOL
;)
Just meant that it seemed to me to be more of a convienience thing for Californians to use. After all, you could just do things the normal way. And Lindows at least got the message out there a bit.
Any digital signature can take the place of wet ink signature in California according to the laws I've found on various .edu law sites.
Why would it be found illegal?
Hey, basically anything electronic counts, that's why I was slightly irked when the law passed.
/. cranks. ;)
Granted, it's a good step forward, but imho it just opens the door for bs "what constitutes and electronic signature" crap. I was irritated that Clinton didn't at least put in a crypto requirement. It wouldn't have had to be as specific as to list a protocol, only to mention that it had to be a credible cryptographic signature technique.
I'd legally sign this with my real name just typed in, but I don't want midnight phone calls from lame
Hrm, I doubt you'd get modded down by linux zealots...
;)
You'd get modded down by rational people for being an idiot making non-sensical claims, by spelling nazis for the obvious, and grammar nazis by the same.
Trolling the trolls that mod down people who bash linux? (/me tries to figure out that one) Oh, whatever, I could care less...
Hrm, this sounds good, but I'm having trouble actually comprehending what you're saying...
:P
"I asked about this in the original story - how can they file claims for people when they aren't even giving people access to the documentation outlining the rules, qualifications and benefits of the class action?"
And this has to do with the site how? What if people have been following things, and don't need all the crap, why should they be required to wade through the pages that they're not going to read anyway?
"I'm sure they did it for the tons of free publicity..."...
So freakin' what? Who says you have to go through them anyway? If I were in Cali, I'd jump at the chance cause it'd cut out all of the runaround bullshit that MS puts you through in the first place... and if I didn't like the product, I'd just do something else.
I'm curious, I've looked at the site, and at the judgements... How's it misleading?
Heh, reminds me, I actually wrote a quick program in perl once to do a statisical anyalsis on die rolls that proved the difference between odds and cumulative odds.
;)
Granted, it could've been mucho ugly if I hadn't written it out the way I did with and with much commenting.
But man was fun to provide a functional program to make a point, and one that anyone off the street could read and comprehend easily. Would actually run through a half million loop iterations to prove the odds check too.
I hate it when I'm overtired and don't cap off a tag and screw up grammatically from editing...
I'm posting WAY too much in this thread, but your comparison of perl to VB just made me vaguely queasy. ;)
;)
"The apparent usefulness of Perl (like Visual Basic) is only indicative of the large number of modules it incorporates."
I don't think that the flexibility of a programming language can be in any way be affected by the ancillary code produced later. The flexability or usefulness of a language, I think, is apparent in what you can do with it, period.
Basically either you can do something or you can't. I'll admit to not knowing anything major about VB - I've quite intentionally stayed as far away from it as I can... but I do know that I've never had a problem forming any type of "construct" that I've ever really needed. I'm a bit curious as to what's being considered a "construct" in this context...
*shrugs* I'll just post my thoughts and move on...
I just got a bit irked at comparing perl to VB I guess. I tend to think perl is an extremely good balance between flexibility of the language itself and coding efficiency / development time.
Putting together a multithreaded and multiprocessor aware application to serve basically any type of content you want and can communicate with anything you can think of at either the raw socket level (or even act at as high level as a web server) in a matter of minutes - you'll have to admit - is very flexible for what most people consider a scripting language.
I've got pretty descent sized perl library that I've written myself as required for things like EDI translation and mapping, hardware/platform detection, networking, database interface, and various other sundry client/server processes though. Even without those, you can get the basics in place in very short order...
I've do have a very obvious professional bent towards data manipulation and basic networking though.
Ug, I care. ;) That's almost exactly one reason I don't use some of the crappy CPAN modules out there.
If I can't figure out what's going on in them, how the hell do I know it works as advertised with a quick scan?
I'd rather just take a quick glance at the (whatever) code than worrying about adding yet another dependancy, and one that probably takes more time to read/convert/integrate than to just do it yourself from scratch.
That being said, there are a hell of a lot of great modules out there!
If you don't know a certain EDI standard, or telnet options, GA and ANSI escape sequences, or whatever tedious little routine you're trying to add in that requires some of the more esoteric knowledge out there, it can be a tremendously useful advantage - if the code is readable!
Time::TrulyRandom (I think that's it anyway - the hardware inaccuracy based one), and some of the core networking, crypto, and xml munging kits have been absolutely invaluable to me in some of my endeavors... and have helped me to really understand what's going on in my programs instead of just taking someone else's word for it.
Nah, regexes aren't the main 'cause (imho). Basic regex notation (what probably %90 of people that use 'em out there use) is pretty easily recognizable as the core syntaxes once you've spent a little time grubbing through docs. It's just that there are a lot of shortcut notations and alternate usages possible with basically everything else.
...and then documentation is semi-important if you walk away from the program for long enough to become unfamiliar with it's entire code structure. I've looked back at some old programs where I've not left comments and it prolly took me 10 times longer to figure out what was going on than to just type out the code. Bad programming essentially. :P
;)
;)
One of perl's little catchphrases is "There's more than one way to do it." The language is extremely flexable.
I totally agree with the poster a few levels up, the only time I really grind out stuff that's essentially horrible looking anymore (been compared to Vogon poetry and line noise a few times too) is when I'm under serious time constraints, am just writing a one use program and don't care, or just plain need to wrap things down as tightly as possible for speed/memory reasons and can't figure out a way to do it more efficiently...
It's very possible to write code that basically does look like line noise... with the caveat that it's not especially easy to write really really obfuscated code if that's what you're intentionally going for, as even the author has to be able to recognize what the hell is going on as well - and usually relies on their own ancilliary documentation for stuff like the obfuscated perl contest.
Mostly I tend to think this is just done by geeks for brag or impression purposes, just like schoolyard bullies get their kicks by pushing around others on the schoolyard 'cause they're bigger or whatever. Not that I'm saying it's intended in the same spirit, but it's the same "gee, look what I can do and you can't (even understand what I'm doing!)" type of thing.
That being said, I just love perl. Quick to write, execute, and very flexable and powerful. I'm glad that readable code has gotten back in vogue again in the last (insert semi-long time frame here) or so, it makes things so much easier to read/debug/improve and use.
When governments push anything, it is usually all the better to govern us with. =/ (emphasis mine)
Are you insane?
Maybe I just have a more positive attitude than you do, but if generally - most people - can publish anything they want, there is at least the opportunity of dissenting opinions, debate, and public opinion...
What I fear most, (troll)especially under Bush(/troll), is that dissenting opinions will be outlaw, and punishable under the majority - just because they are ill informed.
In my (not so humble) opinion, if the majority of people are free to express their opinion on things, then the aware and willing will seek out differing opinions in order to be better informed, and reject the limitations of tyranny - everywhere. Information "wants" to be free, and in my opinion, the better informed people are as to the situations that affect their lives, the better off they are to make their own decisions. Does anyone else have a better definition of democracy?
Maybe I'm hopelessly naive... but I sincerely hope not...
(and I do have my points in thinking that the 'net is more egalitarian than broadcast TV is, especially since most of the latter comes from satellite transmission - I believe...)