Oh... And, yes, I do remember Syllable. I heard of it once or twice on slashdot. Looks like a cool little project.
I'm probably just a worm in comparison to you considering programming skills. If one day it's ripe for primetime (as you can see in my sig, I say that Linux is not ready for primetime), I'll be the first to try your OS as a primary desktop.
For now, I'll gladly try it one day I have a computer spare and that my girlfriend doesn't complain that I spend more time with my computers than with her... *sigh*
Let's call it a draw. I'm pleased you take it on a civil matter. I did take an OS as example though: Windows 2000 will take a HT CPU as two seperate CPU's which is not the right thing to do. It impacts task scbeduling: as far as I understood, it means that you can't assign any task to the second logical CPU because it will impact the real physical CPU. If the scheduler knows that there is one real CPU and a "sidekick", then it will scbedule accordingly. That is more for the real one and the sidekick will get some minor stuff to do. On a real SMP system, it will scedule more equally... more balanced. That is what I meant. It may not have been clear.
Windows XP has been supporting Hyperthreading since SP0. We had a couple of SP0 machines at work happily working with HT. Windows 2000 supports multiple CPU's but not HT. Which is quite annoying because I would like to reinstall my girlfriends computer with an OS that I'm familiar with... namely Win2000... and HT is not compatible with it. So I can't.
Of course, if you want to run Linux on a HT machine, you need a SMP kernel that is HT aware.
I hope we cleared that up now, and we can part as friends:-) It has become rare to be able to keep a conversation civil here on slashdot. I hope that I wasn't too hard on you as an "AC".
Now you're perverting what I said: I didn't say that operating systems like Win2000 wouldn't use the second presented CPU, but that it was far from optimal. So the OS doesn't look for HT, then it will equate it to a real SMP machine, which it is not. If the OS looks for HT (and hence can know the difference between two physcial CPU's and one HT-enabled one), it will adapt it's behaviour to this fact. So: yes, the OS *can* make a difference between a HT CPU and a real SMP machine.
Please go away and at least take a cursory glance over some OSS kernel code that handles SMP/ACPI MDT before you try to tell others how this works.
I said I'm no expert, and I'm probably in no way able to even read the SMP/ACPI code of an OSS kernel, however, unless you're a kernel hacker and can prove it, I don't have to take the word of an AC. (So, if it's you Alan Cox or Linus Torvalds that want to give me a lesson on SMP, feel free to post under your real username)
To be honest, if it's just a BIOS clone, I won't be interested anyway - wake me up when someone recreates OpenFirmware for the PC.
That the stated goal of OpenBIOS . Yes, it would be great, but getting there without the chip manufacturers help is not going to be easy. (if not impossible)
All of this Free Software runs on top of a non-free BIOS.
Not really.... Most modern operating systems ignore the BIOS as soon as they are bootstrapped. So the only parts that are going to use the BIOS are Grub or LiLo.
Of course, I might have misunderstood something about how modern operating systems work.
Because there is no physical second CPU. Hyperthreading presents a logical CPU to the Operating System in order to improve multi-threading. In reality, it's the single core (physical processor) that does both threads. Look at Hyperthreading as a hardware implementation of multitasking. Hyperthreading is thus just a way to improve the efficiency of one CPU. You could imagine (it's an example) that one thread currently uses the integer part of the CPU and the other the FPU part of the CPU.
Useful? Yes, but not always. Hyperthreading can reduce(!) the preformance of the CPU, especially on kernels (be it NT or Linux, for example: don't use HT on a W2k machine) that have no native support for Hyperthreading. They consider the CPU as two real CPU's. This has an effect on scheduling.
Real SMP has two CPU's, two instances that can really work at the same time: do calculations at the same time. The scheduling is different.
I'm not an expert, but you can read about it in the following articles:
My girlfriend has a P-VI 2.4GHz and I have a dual AMD Athlon MP 2400+. Which of the two do you think is faster (and more responsive)? (Okay, she runs XP Home and I run W2k, but still)
since people really should be reading legal contracts before signing them with the next button
I don't "sign" anything with a click on the next button. I use a pen for that, on paper... That's a contract. The only exception on that would be e-banking, where I signed a contract that my click on "submit transaction" is legally equivalent with my real signature.
Only because I signed a real contract, my bank has the right to equate a click with a signature. (Note: I'm ignoring the fact that I actually have a certificate proving it's me, so it's even closer to a real signature than the EULA click)
It just won't sell: nobody wants to buy something that has the word "reduced" in it's name. Microsoft will stop distributing it after a while and just say: "it was a flop, the customers don't want it".
What distro are you using? Ubuntu? Ubuntu doens't come by default with K3B. If I start it, it complains about a.DCOPServer file and then it complains about cdrecord and cdrdao not being run as root. Go figure, I don't login as root when I'm a normal user. Setting it up wasn't easy either because I had to activate the root account. sudo wasn't enough.
K3B is the only recording program that is "okay" for the normal user. All others are too complicated or command line. (The Ubuntu machine was not intended for me, and that's why I actually look at usability)
CD/DVD burning stays a problem... I still have 24hours before this machine will end up as a Win2K machine. Not that it is bad, but I would have preferred to be Opensource and legal.
I asked what was wrong with NT4...but the world moved on, then I asked what was wrong with W2k, and the world moved on... now I ask what is wrong with XP... heck I hate XP.... Don't answer me... The world will move on anyway.
I could give my girlfriend a new computer, sans operating system and a windows disc, she could install it, install her software and do all the things she wants to do with it in a couple of hours
Are you dreaming? (Assuming your girlfriend is not a geek) Have you got any idea how many drivers won't be found (even by XP) with current hardware (you said "new"). If XP will detect it, it will be sub-optimal at best. Then I'm not even speaking about the fact that installing XP will probably not be XP2. Has your (non-geek) girlfriend a CD handy with SP2 on it?
Look, I can understand what you try to prove, but let's be reasonable: installing a PC from scratch is not easy.... not with Windows, not with Linux. There will be questions that the user can't respond to.
As for "not possible with Linux": I'm typing this from an Ubuntu Linux machine. (Installed yesterday, I'm getting my first impressions) The only thing that I needed to install separately was the SMP packages, but a normal user doesn't have SMP in the first place. Still, the questions asked during the install were easy (even for an average user) but my girlfriend couldn't do it.
Users do not install machines, and if they do the machines won't last long. Admins install machines... That's the way it is (for the moment)
Notable exception would be Mac OS X, where you just stick in CD's and answer newbie questions. Apple just has the "known-hardware" advantage.
Do they have Postscript printers? I need a postscript printer that is network enabled and doesn't cost me an arm and a leg. (Sorry, didn't google... I'm in a hurry, need to leave now...)
My programming languages were always extensible. Be it over procedures or functions, objects and inheritance, fuck even the good old programmable interrupts did the job! Programming languages don't limit, they enable you to do what you want.
Look, I can understand XML to convey data.... but honestly, you don't need to use XML for everything under the sun. Proven old good methods work just fine, thank you very much.
... only we have known about it since 2000. The worst are the ringtones, advertised on MTV and such. (My mom always said "buy nothing directly from TV", she's a wise mom) The problem with those is that you usually "subscribe" to a service. It's written in very small letters somewhere on the screen. Many youngsters are tricked into that, and end up paying their money for ringtones they didn't want.
I also heard from a 12 year old that it is often impossible to unsubscribe from them. I personally wonder why MTV does business with such reckless companies.
I, myself, send about 1 SMS per day and my bills stay in the reasonable 10Euro range. Of course, I'm nearly 30 but kids send as much as 50 SMSes per day... Which adds up. Luckily most teenagers have pre-paid cards, so once there is no more money, their toy is useless.
Compaq is HP these days, isn't it? Okay, I have a little story for you: on my former job, I supported a small server for a medical application. A P-III with 384Meg RAM and a RAID5 featuring 9Gig of space. The thing was setup in 1999 because their old system would fail for Y2k. (These days the specs look meager, but it was a great machine)
However, two years later they wanted a CD-Burner in it, if I recall correctly. (I do not recall why exactly they wanted this, but that's not the point here) You know what? The fucking rails you need to fix such a device weren't sold here in Europe anymore! Wanted to get them? Order them in the US, and please add a over 50% markup for postage.
Yeah, great support from great vendors! Tssss.... Not even two years later the pieces for a server system become nearly unfindable and prohibitively expensive.
I think my dual MP2200's still have a bit of life in them.
That's what I think about my MP2400 too... *BUT* it would be enough that some marketing guy decides that the next big thing will be 64bit (AMD *is* working in that direction) and sooner or later we won't have any software left to run on our SMP 32-bit machines.
You know that it is enough that most people need to be convinced that they *need* a 64-bit computer to enable such a movement. Instead of "Oooh! It has the double of bits, it must be better". Luckily Intel is lagging behind on the 64-bit desktop market, but when they catch up, we stand there with obsolete machines.
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Here you go... . Damn, she can armwrestle with me as much as she wants ;-))
Schaiss politiker....
Ech haat Belsch missen blaiwen...
Now, that's what I call "delegation" ;-)
I'm probably just a worm in comparison to you considering programming skills. If one day it's ripe for primetime (as you can see in my sig, I say that Linux is not ready for primetime), I'll be the first to try your OS as a primary desktop.
For now, I'll gladly try it one day I have a computer spare and that my girlfriend doesn't complain that I spend more time with my computers than with her... *sigh*
Windows XP has been supporting Hyperthreading since SP0. We had a couple of SP0 machines at work happily working with HT. Windows 2000 supports multiple CPU's but not HT. Which is quite annoying because I would like to reinstall my girlfriends computer with an OS that I'm familiar with... namely Win2000... and HT is not compatible with it. So I can't.
Of course, if you want to run Linux on a HT machine, you need a SMP kernel that is HT aware.
I hope we cleared that up now, and we can part as friends :-) It has become rare to be able to keep a conversation civil here on slashdot. I hope that I wasn't too hard on you as an "AC".
Please go away and at least take a cursory glance over some OSS kernel code that handles SMP/ACPI MDT before you try to tell others how this works.
I said I'm no expert, and I'm probably in no way able to even read the SMP/ACPI code of an OSS kernel, however, unless you're a kernel hacker and can prove it, I don't have to take the word of an AC. (So, if it's you Alan Cox or Linus Torvalds that want to give me a lesson on SMP, feel free to post under your real username)
That the stated goal of OpenBIOS . Yes, it would be great, but getting there without the chip manufacturers help is not going to be easy. (if not impossible)
Not really.... Most modern operating systems ignore the BIOS as soon as they are bootstrapped. So the only parts that are going to use the BIOS are Grub or LiLo.
Of course, I might have misunderstood something about how modern operating systems work.
Useful? Yes, but not always. Hyperthreading can reduce(!) the preformance of the CPU, especially on kernels (be it NT or Linux, for example: don't use HT on a W2k machine) that have no native support for Hyperthreading. They consider the CPU as two real CPU's. This has an effect on scheduling.
Real SMP has two CPU's, two instances that can really work at the same time: do calculations at the same time. The scheduling is different.
I'm not an expert, but you can read about it in the following articles:
- Hyperthreading Technology (Intel)
- Operating Systems that Include Optimizations for Hyper-Threading Technology (Intel)
- Windows 2000 and the hyperthreading nightmare (The Inquirer)
My girlfriend has a P-VI 2.4GHz and I have a dual AMD Athlon MP 2400+. Which of the two do you think is faster (and more responsive)? (Okay, she runs XP Home and I run W2k, but still)I don't "sign" anything with a click on the next button. I use a pen for that, on paper... That's a contract. The only exception on that would be e-banking, where I signed a contract that my click on "submit transaction" is legally equivalent with my real signature.
Only because I signed a real contract, my bank has the right to equate a click with a signature. (Note: I'm ignoring the fact that I actually have a certificate proving it's me, so it's even closer to a real signature than the EULA click)
On the bright side: your vendors will now *have* to care.
Debian and Ubuntu don't ship with MP3 support "out of the box" either. That would make 3 different Linuxes that fit the description.
You telling me that Boeing isn't subsidized by the US? *ahem*
No. Linux is also considered to be a modern OS and it often doesn't include MP3 playback out of the box. OGG, yes, MP", no... Licensing issues :-(
It just won't sell: nobody wants to buy something that has the word "reduced" in it's name. Microsoft will stop distributing it after a while and just say: "it was a flop, the customers don't want it".
K3B is the only recording program that is "okay" for the normal user. All others are too complicated or command line. (The Ubuntu machine was not intended for me, and that's why I actually look at usability)
CD/DVD burning stays a problem... I still have 24hours before this machine will end up as a Win2K machine. Not that it is bad, but I would have preferred to be Opensource and legal.
I asked what was wrong with NT4...but the world moved on, then I asked what was wrong with W2k, and the world moved on... now I ask what is wrong with XP... heck I hate XP.... Don't answer me... The world will move on anyway.
Same here... Win2K is king... Ubuntu (even if I'm not 100% happy with it, see my journal) is second.
Are you dreaming? (Assuming your girlfriend is not a geek) Have you got any idea how many drivers won't be found (even by XP) with current hardware (you said "new"). If XP will detect it, it will be sub-optimal at best. Then I'm not even speaking about the fact that installing XP will probably not be XP2. Has your (non-geek) girlfriend a CD handy with SP2 on it?
Look, I can understand what you try to prove, but let's be reasonable: installing a PC from scratch is not easy.... not with Windows, not with Linux. There will be questions that the user can't respond to.
As for "not possible with Linux": I'm typing this from an Ubuntu Linux machine. (Installed yesterday, I'm getting my first impressions) The only thing that I needed to install separately was the SMP packages, but a normal user doesn't have SMP in the first place. Still, the questions asked during the install were easy (even for an average user) but my girlfriend couldn't do it.
Users do not install machines, and if they do the machines won't last long. Admins install machines... That's the way it is (for the moment)
Notable exception would be Mac OS X, where you just stick in CD's and answer newbie questions. Apple just has the "known-hardware" advantage.
Do they have Postscript printers? I need a postscript printer that is network enabled and doesn't cost me an arm and a leg. (Sorry, didn't google... I'm in a hurry, need to leave now...)
Look, I can understand XML to convey data.... but honestly, you don't need to use XML for everything under the sun. Proven old good methods work just fine, thank you very much.
I also heard from a 12 year old that it is often impossible to unsubscribe from them. I personally wonder why MTV does business with such reckless companies.
I, myself, send about 1 SMS per day and my bills stay in the reasonable 10Euro range. Of course, I'm nearly 30 but kids send as much as 50 SMSes per day... Which adds up. Luckily most teenagers have pre-paid cards, so once there is no more money, their toy is useless.
However, two years later they wanted a CD-Burner in it, if I recall correctly. (I do not recall why exactly they wanted this, but that's not the point here) You know what? The fucking rails you need to fix such a device weren't sold here in Europe anymore! Wanted to get them? Order them in the US, and please add a over 50% markup for postage.
Yeah, great support from great vendors! Tssss.... Not even two years later the pieces for a server system become nearly unfindable and prohibitively expensive.
That's what I think about my MP2400 too... *BUT* it would be enough that some marketing guy decides that the next big thing will be 64bit (AMD *is* working in that direction) and sooner or later we won't have any software left to run on our SMP 32-bit machines.
You know that it is enough that most people need to be convinced that they *need* a 64-bit computer to enable such a movement. Instead of "Oooh! It has the double of bits, it must be better". Luckily Intel is lagging behind on the 64-bit desktop market, but when they catch up, we stand there with obsolete machines.