The link actually states 88 apps per average not counting the ones that come by default, but considering they take up an icon on the home screen just the same, I see no reason to exclude them in the context of this discussion.
108 icons is a lot to manage, and it is certainly cumbersome to have no choice but to create folders to organize them. The app draw is a far simpler and more efficient approach, by every stretch of the imagination.
108 apps is about 9 iphone homescreens, obviously less if you use folders. I think it's nice to have the choice to just have say, 2 homescreens, with only frequently used applications on there, and not have to dig through folders or screens to find something.
I don't know how you don't see choice as an advantage, which is what it comes down to.
I apologize for calling you an iOS fanboi. You didn't stoop to that level, and in retrospect, I am ashamed that I did. For what it's worth, I do apologize.
As far as the links you provided, I've explained several times why they are meaningless.iOS adoption measures the entire spectrum of iOS 7 adoption. Measuring KitKat adoption only measures stock Android KitKat adoption, which is a very small minority of actual Android platforms.
He actually has a point. It's just a shame the Sladhdot user base is so horribly biased that they can't realize he has a point.
Linux is far more stable when it comes to drivers, and as he said sound. A lot of this has to do with having to reverse engineer stuff, but that doesn't change the practical reality.
As a server there are no stability problems. As a desktop? Trying to run decent sound and video drivers and flash and deal with multiple monitors and webcams and all that jazz? Yeah, problems can and do happy, more frequently than with Windows or OS X.
I'm glad you can implicitly admit you were wrong. Your original claim is that when ios 7 was released nearly everybody was on it. When in fact it was about 2/3rds. That isn't nearly everybody. I also doubt it was 65% on the day of launch, but whatever. 75% after two months is better though, for sure.
The fragmentation issue you mention is not an issue as you try to frame it. It's also funny that as an ios fanboi you are trying to attack Play Services for being closed and proprietary.
Fragmentation is really only an issue with updates and user interface. As far as from a programming perspective, the APIs don't change, the code doesn't change, and the same app will happily run against various versions of Android without issue.
You actually make a few claims there that are simply bullshit, and you seem to be spreading FUD. For what reason I don't know. Let's look at them.
If it isnt an authorized Google device then you can only run stock Android applications because Google Play Services is proprietary and closed so even though you have an Android device you cant install it (so much for openness)
That doesn't even make sense. Any android phone can run and install and app in the play store. There may be some apps that require a newer version, but that's rare and no different with some ios apps requiring a newer version.
Stock android apps would refer to only those apps that are bundled with the base os, such as the text messaging or contacts app. Which every phone, stock or not can run....
And if the application requires Google Play Services features that aren't in the version you have then you need to wait for the OEM to update your version
Actually, this isn't true either. Google's approach to fix the fragmentation problem is to push play services updates as separate from the rest of android, so any version of android on any carrier will still get the update.
And again, it's rare to find an app that won't install. I've still got an old phone running ICS, and it has the same apps as my galaxy nexus. games, office stuff, networking stuff, various phone utilities etc....I don't think outside of certain games I ran into something I couldn't install.
Objective data point is the significant sample of observed average users who install hundreds of applications.
It isn't easier to delete apps from ios at all. You've obviously had some issues, but that's you. On both platforms you either uninstall through the app/play store, or interact with the icon to remove it.
ios requires folders if you don't want clutter. That has been your entire defense of ios. If it gets too cluttered you can use folders. So if you font use folders you have to put up with the clutter. Unlike android.
This is why you apple fanbois are funny. The appdraw is not a mandatory feature and you can opt out of it if you want to. But it's there as a feature if you want to use it. Something ios doesn't even offer. Yet you feel the need to attack it and defend ios, which doesn't even have that feature, as better.
Demonstrable nonsense indeed. You've proven my point for me. A 64% adoption rate is quite a bit different from nearly everybody, which is what you originally claimed.
And I already explain why Android adoption to ios adoption is not apples to apples. Android is heavily modified by phone makers who roll out their version. It's more complex than just looking at numbers for the single Android release that Google provides.
And again, as I explained, other browsers are not available for ios. Only the user interface portion. They still can't run code, correct? They are still Safari underneath, correct? Unlike say Chrome or Firefox or Opera on android. Android has true alternate browsers, not just re-skinned versions of Safari.
First of all, just because the latest version is available does not by any stroke of the imagination means everybody chooses to upgrade to it. In fact, most users don't because they have no need to do so, as far as they are concerned.
It's hard to compare the different versions of Android with something like this. Samsung modifies their Android heavily, and role out their own updates and have their own versions separate from Googles. Only stock Android can be compared to ios in the context of updating, and that's a minority of Android platforms.
And yes, having different browsers is an advantage. No ifs or buts. It's arrogant to say otherwise. Being able to choose a different browser if a page isn't displaying properly alone is a huge advantage. The browser app that came with Android is by no means a piece of shit, it's certainly no worse than Safari, I simply wanted something more feature rich. See, I have that choice.
It really doesn't matter if the browsers I recommend use Webkit or not. Considering they display pages differently (and that Chrome no longer uses webkit anyhow), there are certainly differences in the implementation. And no, those browsers are not available for ios. Skins for safari that make them look slike those browsers are available. The only legitimate alternative browser for ios is Opera Mini.
The disadvantage you mention, of different browsers causing a design headache, that's not a problem. Standards are a pretty easy fix. I very rarely have problems displaying pages on my phone. On the other hand, on an iPhone when I do have a problem, I have to use an android or a desktop to view the site, since I can't use a different browser.
Since Apple doesn't allow me to. Think about that.
You're right, my opinion doesn't invalidate what you say, as it's just an opinion. A large enough sample size or users being inconvencied by ios app manegment though, is an objective data point, which does invalidate your opinion.
You also seemed to think I was talking about andrid when I mentioned the lack of uninstalling. I wasn't. Those types of users don't tend to uninstall on either platform, and that's only a problem on ios due to the flawed design.
Android is also WYSWIG, it's just a more efficient implementation. A single tap of a very accessible icon shows all your applications.
You also seem to be missing the point. Multiple folders are not a solution. At all. The app drawer does not hide away applications, it makes them just as accessible, but without the insane clutter ios causes.
Here's the difference: Ios REQUIRES folders because you have no choice and need to reduce the clutter. Android hides clutter and allows you to organize your apps however you like. You can have folders, multiple homescreens, widgets (a major failing of ios), orn o folders if you want. If you really want, you can have every icon on the homescreen just as ios does and get rid of the app drawer icon altogether.
Android offers choice. ios offers only a way full of clutter requiring the use of folders to reduce it.
Then again, it's based on very early versions of android, or a weird manufacturer modification. At least since 4.2 you can uninstall through the app drawer.
Even if that doesn't work for you, you can go to play store and then your apps and uninstall. No need to go into settings at all.
You're absolutely, 100% wrong here. I'm going by the average users I know...my parents, older friends...people who know absolutely nothing about technology.
They do tend to install a lot of apps, and much like how they use a computer they never tend to uninstall, but just sort through the mess for what they need.
It is far, far more user friendly to have the apps you use frequently easily accessible, and the rest hidden away for when you need them. Honestly, there is no way to defend this behaviour in ios.
I also have no idea how you think folders is an answer. The key is not to be forced to have every app on the homescreen. Having to make a bunch of folders and organize them when they shouldn't be there in the first place is not the answer.
You also know damn well the app drawer functions a lot more elegantly than having every icon in one folder(if that is even possible) on ios. It's not the same at all.
You don't have to go into settings or app management. Just go into the app drawer, hold down and drag to the top and remove.
Uninstalling requires an additional step of confirming, that's it. It's not harder at all.
The sucky app management I was referring to was that every installed app is automatically on a home screen. That's a shitty thing.
Folders don't help.
On android I can access every installed app through the app drawer, and only the ones I need are on the homescreens (with folders if I desire), leaving space for useful and functional things like widgets.
I can't see anywhere Android has to catch up to IOS int erms of usability...for me it's purely the other way around.
I'm not being a fanboi here...I've used both...and maybe it is just preference, but everything on ios is harder and less seamless, largely due to the reduced functionality/feature set.
Out of curiosity, what would you say the iPhone did better?
I don't have KitKat so can't help with that, but don't assume the bundle browser is chrome unless it actually says chrome. If it doesn't, may well be worth getting Chrome or Dolphin.
Also, why would you need swiftkey? The android keyboard does the same thing now.
For searching, you shouldn't need an app, just use the search bar at the top of every home screen.
Widgets on lockscreens are still there...
It sounds like you just have to learn a different way to doing things.
Still with an OS that lacks features that have become standard in other platforms, still with sucky app management, still with a lack of control for a device you won.....all for twice the price of an equivalent Nexus phone.
No thanks. A phone where I can't install a browser of my choice(not just a reskin), download torrents on, use widgets(yes, they greatly increase productivity) on or not have every damn app as an icon on a home screen isn't much use to me.
You're right, I should exclude the Sony root-kit. My bad, wasn't thinking clearly I guess.
The list of standards Sony helped created is meaningless...there was no point to include it, because it does nothing to invalidate the proprietary standards I was referring to. It's a fallacious line of reasoning. If someone says they did something bad, you don't point and say yes but look at what they did good.
In the case of PS3 proprietary standards would be memory cards and in the case of the vita the charging cable.
That's a fair point, I didn't list out the evils because I thought they were well known by the crowd here on/.
Strictly in the domain of consoles, it was mainly the way they removed functionality from a device, forcing expensive proprietary formats, the hotz lawsuit, the lik-sang saga..
I dunno. For me that is sufficient.
The worst thing Microsoft seems to do with their consoles is charge for xbox live to be able to watch netflix.
You refute the points of my argument you disagree with by:
Drawing from Microsofts PC history, which has nothing to do with their console. Excusing the Sony DRM debacle because it wasn't the same part of Sony that is responsible for the PS4 Listing the standards Sony helped created, which does nothing to invalidate the proprietary standards they now enforce Listing the open standards the PS4 supports, which does nothing to invalidate the proprietary standards they now enforce
How does being an MSDN subscriber through work prove that you are not retarded?
I admit, It was an unneecssary insult. But calling me a shill straight of the bat is also an insult of sorts.
I never said that I trusted Microsoft implicitly, I said that they have done far less evil than Sony, as far as when it comes to consoles and screwing over consumers.
Your resorting to Windows 8 arguments and other anti-microsoft arguments that have nothing to do with what I said, which was specifically in the domain of consoles.
In this post that I'm replying to, you actually make some good arguments. It's a shame you didn't just make them first, instead of resorting to the shill ad-hominem. It actually shows that you are not retarded and can reason someone. It also shows you lack the ability to think critically and respond emotionally at first instance.
Good luck with your MSDN subcription though. I hope it furthers you in your other endeavors of proving your intellectual competence.
Slashdot Mirror
I understand anecdotes do not constitute data. Anecdotes are not what I'm referring to.
Look here for example.
The link actually states 88 apps per average not counting the ones that come by default, but considering they take up an icon on the home screen just the same, I see no reason to exclude them in the context of this discussion.
108 icons is a lot to manage, and it is certainly cumbersome to have no choice but to create folders to organize them. The app draw is a far simpler and more efficient approach, by every stretch of the imagination.
108 apps is about 9 iphone homescreens, obviously less if you use folders. I think it's nice to have the choice to just have say, 2 homescreens, with only frequently used applications on there, and not have to dig through folders or screens to find something.
I don't know how you don't see choice as an advantage, which is what it comes down to.
Use StartSSL or install the self signed cert into your browsers. Easy peasy.
I apologize for calling you an iOS fanboi. You didn't stoop to that level, and in retrospect, I am ashamed that I did. For what it's worth, I do apologize.
As far as the links you provided, I've explained several times why they are meaningless.iOS adoption measures the entire spectrum of iOS 7 adoption. Measuring KitKat adoption only measures stock Android KitKat adoption, which is a very small minority of actual Android platforms.
He actually has a point. It's just a shame the Sladhdot user base is so horribly biased that they can't realize he has a point.
Linux is far more stable when it comes to drivers, and as he said sound. A lot of this has to do with having to reverse engineer stuff, but that doesn't change the practical reality.
As a server there are no stability problems. As a desktop? Trying to run decent sound and video drivers and flash and deal with multiple monitors and webcams and all that jazz? Yeah, problems can and do happy, more frequently than with Windows or OS X.
I'm glad you can implicitly admit you were wrong. Your original claim is that when ios 7 was released nearly everybody was on it. When in fact it was about 2/3rds. That isn't nearly everybody. I also doubt it was 65% on the day of launch, but whatever. 75% after two months is better though, for sure.
The fragmentation issue you mention is not an issue as you try to frame it. It's also funny that as an ios fanboi you are trying to attack Play Services for being closed and proprietary.
Fragmentation is really only an issue with updates and user interface. As far as from a programming perspective, the APIs don't change, the code doesn't change, and the same app will happily run against various versions of Android without issue.
You actually make a few claims there that are simply bullshit, and you seem to be spreading FUD. For what reason I don't know. Let's look at them.
If it isnt an authorized Google device then you can only run stock Android applications because Google Play Services is proprietary and closed so even though you have an Android device you cant install it (so much for openness)
That doesn't even make sense. Any android phone can run and install and app in the play store. There may be some apps that require a newer version, but that's rare and no different with some ios apps requiring a newer version.
Stock android apps would refer to only those apps that are bundled with the base os, such as the text messaging or contacts app. Which every phone, stock or not can run....
And if the application requires Google Play Services features that aren't in the version you have then you need to wait for the OEM to update your version
Actually, this isn't true either. Google's approach to fix the fragmentation problem is to push play services updates as separate from the rest of android, so any version of android on any carrier will still get the update.
And again, it's rare to find an app that won't install. I've still got an old phone running ICS, and it has the same apps as my galaxy nexus. games, office stuff, networking stuff, various phone utilities etc....I don't think outside of certain games I ran into something I couldn't install.
Objective data point is the significant sample of observed average users who install hundreds of applications.
It isn't easier to delete apps from ios at all. You've obviously had some issues, but that's you. On both platforms you either uninstall through the app/play store, or interact with the icon to remove it.
ios requires folders if you don't want clutter. That has been your entire defense of ios. If it gets too cluttered you can use folders. So if you font use folders you have to put up with the clutter. Unlike android.
This is why you apple fanbois are funny. The appdraw is not a mandatory feature and you can opt out of it if you want to. But it's there as a feature if you want to use it. Something ios doesn't even offer. Yet you feel the need to attack it and defend ios, which doesn't even have that feature, as better.
The difference is there is no app drawer on ios, the app drawer is in practice the homescreens.
On android the app drawer is separate, and the homescreens have icons you actually use, so it is less cluttered.
Many of the continental European countries are more tightly bound in the human spirit and sense of identity and culture than the USA.
And what do you base this on? Your lengthy time spent in the USA? Or your idea of the USA without ever having been here?
Demonstrable nonsense indeed. You've proven my point for me. A 64% adoption rate is quite a bit different from nearly everybody, which is what you originally claimed.
And I already explain why Android adoption to ios adoption is not apples to apples. Android is heavily modified by phone makers who roll out their version. It's more complex than just looking at numbers for the single Android release that Google provides.
And again, as I explained, other browsers are not available for ios. Only the user interface portion. They still can't run code, correct? They are still Safari underneath, correct? Unlike say Chrome or Firefox or Opera on android. Android has true alternate browsers, not just re-skinned versions of Safari.
Long time no see.
First of all, just because the latest version is available does not by any stroke of the imagination means everybody chooses to upgrade to it. In fact, most users don't because they have no need to do so, as far as they are concerned.
It's hard to compare the different versions of Android with something like this. Samsung modifies their Android heavily, and role out their own updates and have their own versions separate from Googles. Only stock Android can be compared to ios in the context of updating, and that's a minority of Android platforms.
And yes, having different browsers is an advantage. No ifs or buts. It's arrogant to say otherwise. Being able to choose a different browser if a page isn't displaying properly alone is a huge advantage. The browser app that came with Android is by no means a piece of shit, it's certainly no worse than Safari, I simply wanted something more feature rich. See, I have that choice.
It really doesn't matter if the browsers I recommend use Webkit or not. Considering they display pages differently (and that Chrome no longer uses webkit anyhow), there are certainly differences in the implementation. And no, those browsers are not available for ios. Skins for safari that make them look slike those browsers are available. The only legitimate alternative browser for ios is Opera Mini.
The disadvantage you mention, of different browsers causing a design headache, that's not a problem. Standards are a pretty easy fix. I very rarely have problems displaying pages on my phone. On the other hand, on an iPhone when I do have a problem, I have to use an android or a desktop to view the site, since I can't use a different browser.
Since Apple doesn't allow me to. Think about that.
You're right, my opinion doesn't invalidate what you say, as it's just an opinion. A large enough sample size or users being inconvencied by ios app manegment though, is an objective data point, which does invalidate your opinion.
You also seemed to think I was talking about andrid when I mentioned the lack of uninstalling. I wasn't. Those types of users don't tend to uninstall on either platform, and that's only a problem on ios due to the flawed design.
Android is also WYSWIG, it's just a more efficient implementation. A single tap of a very accessible icon shows all your applications.
You also seem to be missing the point. Multiple folders are not a solution. At all. The app drawer does not hide away applications, it makes them just as accessible, but without the insane clutter ios causes.
Here's the difference: Ios REQUIRES folders because you have no choice and need to reduce the clutter. Android hides clutter and allows you to organize your apps however you like. You can have folders, multiple homescreens, widgets (a major failing of ios), orn o folders if you want. If you really want, you can have every icon on the homescreen just as ios does and get rid of the app drawer icon altogether.
Android offers choice. ios offers only a way full of clutter requiring the use of folders to reduce it.
Then again, it's based on very early versions of android, or a weird manufacturer modification. At least since 4.2 you can uninstall through the app drawer.
Even if that doesn't work for you, you can go to play store and then your apps and uninstall. No need to go into settings at all.
You're absolutely, 100% wrong here. I'm going by the average users I know...my parents, older friends...people who know absolutely nothing about technology.
They do tend to install a lot of apps, and much like how they use a computer they never tend to uninstall, but just sort through the mess for what they need.
It is far, far more user friendly to have the apps you use frequently easily accessible, and the rest hidden away for when you need them. Honestly, there is no way to defend this behaviour in ios.
I also have no idea how you think folders is an answer. The key is not to be forced to have every app on the homescreen. Having to make a bunch of folders and organize them when they shouldn't be there in the first place is not the answer.
You also know damn well the app drawer functions a lot more elegantly than having every icon in one folder(if that is even possible) on ios. It's not the same at all.
Is this stock android or a manufacturer modified version?
Dragging an app from the homescreen on to the remove target will remove from the homescreen.
From the appdraw there is an uninstall target, which will uninstall.
If not, it's either a much older version of android or a shitty modified version.
You don't have to go into settings or app management. Just go into the app drawer, hold down and drag to the top and remove.
Uninstalling requires an additional step of confirming, that's it. It's not harder at all.
The sucky app management I was referring to was that every installed app is automatically on a home screen. That's a shitty thing.
Folders don't help.
On android I can access every installed app through the app drawer, and only the ones I need are on the homescreens (with folders if I desire), leaving space for useful and functional things like widgets.
A lack of clutter is a great thing.
I can't see anywhere Android has to catch up to IOS int erms of usability...for me it's purely the other way around.
I'm not being a fanboi here...I've used both...and maybe it is just preference, but everything on ios is harder and less seamless, largely due to the reduced functionality/feature set.
Out of curiosity, what would you say the iPhone did better?
I don't have KitKat so can't help with that, but don't assume the bundle browser is chrome unless it actually says chrome. If it doesn't, may well be worth getting Chrome or Dolphin.
Also, why would you need swiftkey? The android keyboard does the same thing now.
For searching, you shouldn't need an app, just use the search bar at the top of every home screen.
Widgets on lockscreens are still there...
It sounds like you just have to learn a different way to doing things.
Still with an OS that lacks features that have become standard in other platforms, still with sucky app management, still with a lack of control for a device you won.....all for twice the price of an equivalent Nexus phone.
No thanks. A phone where I can't install a browser of my choice(not just a reskin), download torrents on, use widgets(yes, they greatly increase productivity) on or not have every damn app as an icon on a home screen isn't much use to me.
You're right, I should exclude the Sony root-kit. My bad, wasn't thinking clearly I guess.
The list of standards Sony helped created is meaningless...there was no point to include it, because it does nothing to invalidate the proprietary standards I was referring to. It's a fallacious line of reasoning. If someone says they did something bad, you don't point and say yes but look at what they did good.
In the case of PS3 proprietary standards would be memory cards and in the case of the vita the charging cable.
I also refer you to the lik-sang saga: http://www.lik-sang.com/
I'm not sure how you arrive at the conclusion that mentioning things both consoles do is off-topic because I said XBOX is a better platform.
That's a fair point, I didn't list out the evils because I thought they were well known by the crowd here on /.
Strictly in the domain of consoles, it was mainly the way they removed functionality from a device, forcing expensive proprietary formats, the hotz lawsuit, the lik-sang saga..
I dunno. For me that is sufficient.
The worst thing Microsoft seems to do with their consoles is charge for xbox live to be able to watch netflix.
So, let me get this straight.
You refute the points of my argument you disagree with by:
Drawing from Microsofts PC history, which has nothing to do with their console.
Excusing the Sony DRM debacle because it wasn't the same part of Sony that is responsible for the PS4
Listing the standards Sony helped created, which does nothing to invalidate the proprietary standards they now enforce
Listing the open standards the PS4 supports, which does nothing to invalidate the proprietary standards they now enforce
Well, I'm convinced.
Not.
How does being an MSDN subscriber through work prove that you are not retarded?
I admit, It was an unneecssary insult. But calling me a shill straight of the bat is also an insult of sorts.
I never said that I trusted Microsoft implicitly, I said that they have done far less evil than Sony, as far as when it comes to consoles and screwing over consumers.
Your resorting to Windows 8 arguments and other anti-microsoft arguments that have nothing to do with what I said, which was specifically in the domain of consoles.
In this post that I'm replying to, you actually make some good arguments. It's a shame you didn't just make them first, instead of resorting to the shill ad-hominem. It actually shows that you are not retarded and can reason someone. It also shows you lack the ability to think critically and respond emotionally at first instance.
Good luck with your MSDN subcription though. I hope it furthers you in your other endeavors of proving your intellectual competence.
So because I said Sony has done more evil than MS, I'm shilling for MS?
Ahh well. People will think what they want to think. It's easier to call me a shill than to respond to my argument I suppose.
If he was using the force of law to enforce his opinion, you would have a point.
As it is, he is only saying his opinion that force of law should be applied. Until it is, it's just another silly view.
You win the epeen contest. Congratulations my basement dwelling friend.