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A Playstation 4 Teardown
Dave Knott writes "Just over one week ahead of the launch of the Playstation 4, Wired has posted an article with a full teardown of Sony's new device. In an accompanying video Sony engineering director Yasuhiro Ootori dismantles the PS4 piece by piece, describing each component and showing just what is contained inside the sleek black box."
That's super of them, to give the modders a head start like that!
"I love animals! Some are cute, others are tasty, what's not to like?" - Betsy Schroeder, Jeopardy contestant
Sure, people who don't care any like the games...
But surely Sony have left a bad taste in many peoples mouths, with removing promised features, poor security after getting hacked several times, DRM rootkits, propriety crap instead of standards...
It feels weird to say it, but XBOX is clearly the better platform here.
Paid shill anyone? Did you forget the Eye of Sauron on the Xbox One? Did you forget how Microsoft initially was not going to allow resale of games? How much does Microsoft pay you? The XBox 360 had a proprietary HD while the PS3 had a standard HD that was end user replaceable.
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
what my next console is going to be. Guess I will wait and see what happens in the ensuing months.
clearly? in what clear way? neither of the systems have announced must have titles, so there...
but you should really remember that practically all of first year xbox360's are by now _broken_ by shit manufacturing+design. that's like removing _all_ features.
but yeah have fun with your metroxbox... that totally doesn't send everything you say to ms for analysis.. only the things you meant for it to search ;D
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Are you retarded? Sony might be shit, but Microsoft is still worse in practically every regard. At least Sony, Nintendo and Valve have a few decent games.
Yes, let's more than double the price by including a 500GB SSD.
People who don't want to wait several hours to download an 8+ GB game?
PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
The PS4 controller, AKA the dualshock4, is a pretty impressive little device. Trackpad, motion, control, speaker, headset, analog sticks, bunch of buttons.
And it will connect to any device via bluetooth or USB because it shows up as a Generic HID device on both! You can pair it with your PC, phone or tablet via bluetooth or connect it to anything that supports USB.
Right now just the basic stuff is supported. Both analog sticks and all buttons (Including the tackpad click). The big triggers register a button press, and register analog on a seperate input too. Hell, even the tilt/motion control shows up as an analog input.
I'm fairly certain, like with the wiimote, an improved driver will be developed to access the special functions like the track pad and audio interfaces.
I don't plan on getting the PS4 but I already have a dualshock 4 (You can buy them now at gamestop) and I'm toying with it on lots of things. Already use it as a controller on my tablet for playing emulators and it works better than anything else I've tried by far.
A high-quality and detailed teardown of their own product? I think that's freaking awesome. And smart too - they know the success of the PS4 will depend on the early adopter, hard-core gamer, the type of person who has likely put together a home-grown PC gaming system and who would get excited about exactly this type of video. Well done Sony.
Where is the 'we will screw you later on' module?
Every sony product has one..
This was very interesting to watch, also to see him describe some of the hardware (such as CPU and GPU being single chip, with GDDR5 on the motherboard). I'm usually a fan of the Xbox, but I've never seen Microsoft give one shred of detail about how to take apart any product of theirs.. I've never seen Sony either, but this is a welcome change.
I love the smell of conspiracy theories in the morning!
If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
Why an SSD?
A 2TB laptop drive can be had for very cheap.
Which gets you back to the "spinning disc" the OP was complaining about.
If you want non-spinning, it's SSD.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
do you really want to download 25-50GB games?
even if you have a fast and cap free ISP you still need some where to store them and big SDD's cost a lot.
That would take around 1,074 years to watch. Your toddler will be long dead before then. Your Playstation 4 will still be playing. /propaganda
can it run linux?
The XBox 360 had a proprietary HD while the PS3 had a standard HD that was end user replaceable.
No, it did not. It had a proprietary HD enclosure, which could be bought on ebay for a small amount then the end user could supply their own drive.
to justify the cost, other than sony's corporate greed. i bet these are way cheaper to manufacture than previous generations, and this is no loss leader funded by game sales.
PS4 will have FF XIV, nothing interesting except Halo reruns for Xbox and no Metroid announced for Wii U.
PS4 wins.
Get free satoshi (Bitcoin) and Dogecoins
I thought he meant the blu-ray.
Which has terrible seek times compared to spinning magnetic disk.
Actually, older PS3's didn't require anything but the new drive. AFAIK It was only starting with the slim models that you had to buy the bracket too.
I see peak sustained downloads of about 800KB/sec on my cable. Sure, it sucks, but we're well away from the central drop.
So, that's 10,000 seconds, or about 2 hours and 45 minutes, to download 8,000 MB.
Of course, that's peak. If anyone else in the house is using Netflix, or if I'm downloading anything else, it'll be slower. And 8GB is about the average of games on Blu-Ray today, for the PS3. For the PS4, they're liable to be substantially larger. Especially since the XBone will also be using Blu-Ray to distribute games, finally, so multiplatform games can be larger than 8GB.
So... yeah.
PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
Perhaps "people who've finished all their ps3 games but still use it as their disc player and would rather replace it entirely than just add more stuff to the living room"?
A high-quality and detailed teardown of their own product? I think that's freaking awesome. And smart too - they know the success of the PS4 will depend on the early adopter, hard-core gamer, the type of person who has likely put together a home-grown PC gaming system and who would get excited about exactly this type of video. Well done Sony.
A detailed teardown was inevitable from someone - probably Ars Technica, for example. And that teardown comes with a review of Sony's architecture and decisions, and the review may not necessarily be entirely favorable. However, this way, the first teardown is accompanied by glowing descriptions of the hardware. Anything later is an also-ran, by definition, and will draw less eyeballs than it would have if it was first. The widest seen review now will be their own. More companies should do this.
After owning 3 360s, I switched to PS3 and am never looking back after I get a PS4. Microsoft screwed themselves out of this good customer.
I still cannot believe that in order to run streaming apps like Netflix or Hulu I have to purchase xbox live just to get the ethernet adapter to work. 50 bucks a year to turn on the ethernet adapter seems a little pricey.
. It had a proprietary HD enclosure, which could be bought on ebay for a small amount then the end user could supply their own drive.
"Fat" PS3's don't have the "enclosure", and with the slims, you can just take the enclosure off the old drive.
Other than that, Standard SATA.
PS2 HDD's on the other hand are "blessed", you need a "blessed" HDD if you want to use it with softare that supports the HDD. That doesn't apply to PS2 Linux though, you can use any PATA drive with that.
I love this kind of fanboyism. My platform isn't quite as shitty as yours. Great.
Hmmm, possibly that, since it can also function as a BluRay player ... at which point how you'd escape the spinning disc thing is a mystery to me.
And I'm also assuming (possibly incorrectly) the PS4 will have the same ability as the XBox 360 to install to the HD and then use only the disc to confirm you're allowed to run it.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
He makes a comment about how the stickers are there on the back screws to discourage people opening it up and then he goes on to say you can replace the HD with any standard drive.
Seems they thought of what would happen if people tried to sell their PS4 on the used market. It would be easy/easier for the buyer to tell if the unit had been opened up while still allowing for people to upgrade their systems.
It's not like they dropped some security torx screws in this or other odd screws like others do (Apple).
This is the first time they have released a console that uses the same optical format as its predecessor - yet it can't play the software written for said predecsessor. They have made their old stuff obsolete and are demanding people pay more money to get that much more. I'd be surprised if people are willing to part with $400 for this new generation.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
The XBox 360 had a proprietary HD while the PS3 had a standard HD that was end user replaceable.
No, it did not. It had a proprietary HD enclosure, which could be bought on ebay for a small amount then the end user could supply their own drive.
It used a standard model hard drive with proprietary firmware. You can't just take any old off-the-shelf drive and slap it in the enclosure, it won't work
>It feels weird to say it, but XBOX is clearly the better platform here.
If you want to spend $100 more for less competent hardware to play the games (the things that matters), I guess... sure.
Yeah, because your old PS2 and 3 suddenly stop working with the 4 comes out.
And used PS3s simply disappear off the face of the earth!
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
I think he meant 360, which requires a special MS blessed firmware. I believe they are/were banning people who managed to use non-approved drives.
3 folks in my office already have them preordered. My boss took a day off to collect his and play it.
I am debating this or a steambox.
$400 is not exactly a fortune.
Yes It did. Xbox had their own HD enclosure and it only worked with the specific model of HD. Plus you needed the specific software from the HD in order for it to recognize the new HD. While the PS3 you just had to replace the drive with any HD model. I know because I updated both machines.
They were not; I used a non-approved HDD for years until my 360 got stolen during a burglary. It was super-easy to accidentally brick a hard drive trying to get the damn firmware on it, but buying a generic hard drive was less than half the price of a first-party one, so...
They banned consoles (not Live accounts, but consoles by serial number) for using non-approved optical drives, because those were used for piracy. That's where the confusion came in.
I can do netflix or hulu from more than half of what is connected in the living room. To me, PS+ is the same crap as Xbox Live and I'm tempted to not buy either console because of it.
Did you notice Sony will only let you watch streamed Video and Music sold to you by them?
No DLNA support
No USB support
No using a PS4 for home media
I've been called a paid Sony Shill on these forums, and I'm now saying that the XBox is the best all-round device for the next generation.
trollolol. such nerd rage over brand worship.
That's not true. The drives also had a digital signature on them to make them work with the 360. No signature and the drive wouldn't work. The signature was tied to the drive capacity, serial number and model number.
People hacked around this by putting custom firmware on drives that gave it the serial number and model number of another drive. You then could copy the digital signature from that drive and get as much storage as that signature allowed. So, for example, if you copied the signature from a 60GB drive you got 60GB of storage even if you have a 200GB drive.
So no, it wasn't just a proprietary enclosure. And the process of duplicating that signature violated the DMCA. Hacking/duplicating firmware probably did too.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Kristopeit, welcome back!
Sony kept their plans to fuck the consumer hidden until they executed them.
Microsoft laid out their plans to fuck the consumer right from the very start.
I'm not sure I understand how that makes MS better than Sony? If you believe that a "reversal" today means they've changed their long term plans for the console's ecosystem at the drop of a had... well I've got a bridge to sell ya.
I'll let you in on a little tip. Just like with political parties, thinking one side is completely full of self-serving shit doesn't mean the other side is any better at all.
Did you stop beating your wife?
The guy got a little defensive, but we need to think about it before just yelling "Shill". The guy relustantly picked the XBOX 1 over PS4, I don't see where that makes him a shill. The MS hate here can get a bit thick at times. Not every single thing they make is universally reviled and hated. Someone can have a positive thing to say about MS without being paid to say it.
I use the Ethernet adapter without paying MS a dime more than the one off cost of the xbox360 itself - I just use local dlna servers...
Notice how the PS4 has a CPU, but no GPU.
That's because it uses INTEGRATED GRAPHICS.
A spinning disc, in 2013? Who's the target market
People who don't have the bandwidth to download 25-50GB games?
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
Not every single thing they make is universally reviled and hated. Someone can have a positive thing to say about MS without being paid to say it.
I've just started learning C# and kinda like it so far.
Does that count?
Did you forget how Microsoft initially was not going to allow resale of games?
When you are trying to go entirely digital with your platform, that makes complete f-ing sense! Regardless, they walked the Steam model right back.
Did you notice Sony will only let you watch streamed Video and Music sold to you by them? No DLNA support No USB support No using a PS4 for home media
I've been called a paid Sony Shill on these forums, and I'm now saying that the XBox is the best all-round device for the next generation.
I used PS3 for streaming over DLNA. Now I use a dedicated tool that gives me actual freedom. I bought the PS3 because of those possibilities, that is true, but now that I used it, I would hope the PS4 is just really good at games. Sony-non-gaming only wants cinavia and other crap to add on those things.
As to the PS4, as all these things are essentially just software, I'm personally convinced they will add them eventually, after trying an itunes approach or collaboration with a specific provider per country via an app. If those fail, they will/can add them.
This is the first time they have released a console that uses the same optical format as its predecessor
Yeah, and the last time, they had to put a PS2 chip on the mainboard just to do it--adding to the cost and footprint of the PS3 to do it (part of the reason it was $600 at launch). This time they're going for something a little more affordable, and so they weren't about to slap on an entire PS3 chipset on there just so a handful of nitpickers could play their old PS3 games without needing another HDMI port.
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
Cool video. Awesome they did this. Like the editing and camera work. Shame they had such bland lighting on such a bland background. Turn on a light or something!
wow, that thing is small. Amazing how small consoles have become in the past few years. It is half the size of my Plastation 2 fat version.
This is the first time they have released a console that uses the same optical format as its predecessor - yet it can't play the software written for said predecsessor.
Because it's the optical drive, not the core architecture of the CPU that matters here. Why not bring up the fact that they also use the same power cord?
I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
Damn, all the mod points went to shills today?? Poor guy got modded down by Sony AND MS shills. It's disgusting. I hope I see some of these bad moderations tonight when I metamoderate (except slashdot always throws me either unmoderated comments or ones that are over +3 and belong there).
Games install from the disc or from the net and play from the hard drive. The optical drive is there if you prefer physical media, which I do.
I find it easy to believe MS claims of repentance this year: they're doing a huge re-org, and didn't they actually fire the guy in charge of Xbox when they changed?
We'll see what happens next year, of course.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Xbox is the ONLY device that does this. Its absurd and you are making excuses for it.
Good-bye
Hmmm, possibly that, since it can also function as a BluRay player ... at which point how you'd escape the spinning disc thing is a mystery to me.
Clearly, he wants the disc to remain stationary while the console scans it linearly like an ultra high resolution flatbed scanner.
You realize the XO is the same? No support for anything you listed at launch.
Sony has already stated that they're working on adding at least some of those things back in on their update after launch (likely this year). Only thing they haven't said anything about is USB HDD support for game storage, though you can swap the HDD out with any 2.5" off-the-shelf drive unlike the XO.
Or, even more awesome ... the disc stays still while the console spins around.
Probably more efficient to spin the disc though.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
The 500GB HD can be replaced by any commercial drive of larger capacity according to the engineer in the video!
still cannot believe that in order to run streaming apps like Netflix or Hulu I have to purchase xbox live just to get the ethernet adapter to work.
That does seem hard to believe. Are you sure you'll need Xbox live gold, not the free version, for this? I need an Xbox live account to play a few of my PC games, and I definitely never paid for it!
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
But surely Sony have left a bad taste in many peoples mouths,
OK, I'll address these points one by one.
with removing promised features
I'll give you this one. Although I'm surprised IBM didn't push them to not include Linux support in the first place since they sold higher-end Cell systems.
poor security after getting hacked several times
That's still better than Microsoft whose response to Xbox Live hacks is to pretend they're not happening.
Oh, and due to your next argument, you also tacitly gave me permission to bring up that Microsoft Windows and Microsoft Internet Explorer are responsible for some of the largest security holes in computing ever.
DRM rootkits,
Sony is actually a number of different divisions operating under a single name. In this case, the rootkit was from Sony Music Entertainment and Phillips actually make Sony Music Entertainment stop using the CD designation for discs that had said DRM on it.
propriety crap instead of standards...
I can't tell if you're talking about all of Sony or just Sony Computer Entertainment.
If you're talking about all of Sony, I'm going to remind you that they were involved in the creation of:
* The cassette tape
* The 3.5" diskette
* CDs
* Blu-Ray
all of which were standards at one time or another. (Note: DVDs also used the error correcting technology from CDs, but Sony was not involved other than that)
For just the PS3:
The PS3's main processor is proprietary... but so was the Xbox 360 CPU (unless you thought a triple-core Power PC was a standard component...), the Wii CPU..., and the WiiU CPU while we're at it.
Having said that, the PS3 uses the following standards:
1. 802.11b/g built in to all models. The Xbox 360 originally went with wired networking only and required a $100 addon for WiFi support. It wasn't until the "S" models that they included it in the base system.
2. Standard 2.5" (aka laptop) SATA hard drive bay. The Xbox 360 uses hard drives with custom firmware instead.
3. Bluetooth 2.0 for wireless controllers and peripherals. The Xbox 360 uses custom 2.4GHz RF instead.
Note: I'm intentionally not listing technologies that both systems supported such as USB or video outputs.
GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
I like that Sony provided the teardown. It shows a certain amount of openess and I get the sense that the engineers that designed it want us to see it in all its glory.
But then I see other things pop up, like having to download an update and register the device before I can play Blu-ray discs, that it won't play MP3s or CDs, that it won't stream video content from my computer. All of this reeks of a lame attempt to force PS4 owners into subscribing to Sony's Music Unlimited and Video Unlimited by placing artificial limits on the hardware.
What I love about my PS3 (and I bought mine the day it was released and haven't had a single problem with it) is that I could use it for more than just games; it became my HTPC.
It seems like the PS4 won't be able to fill the shoes of its predecessor. And that's a shame. And the reason why I won't be buying a PS4 at launch and probably won't touch it until sony "patches" the firmware to fix these "bugs".
I love this kind of fanboyism. My platform isn't quite as shitty as yours. Great.
It's like politics and religion.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
You're being goofy. It's completely understandable that people are annoyed that they can't just put their PS4 where their PS3 had been due to the lack of backward compatibility. Sony was one of the companies that trained their customers to expect it, and could have delivered it if not for the huge misstep of using the Cell Processor in the PS3 rather than a PC-like system.
I've got it!
We spin the disc clockwise...
And then spin the console counter-clockwise!
Just think of the throughput! That laser will be moving across the disc so fast, Sony will have to build hardware that works with 0's and 1/2's instead of 0's and 1's!
As to the PS4, as all these things are essentially just software, I'm personally convinced they will add them eventually, after trying an itunes approach or collaboration with a specific provider per country via an app. If those fail, they will/can add them.
So you are anticipating the company that took away a highly touted software feature (the "Other OS" feature) via a required system update (as in required if you ever wanted to play another game on your system) is going to add new capabilities to the PS4 that they went to special effort to prevent upon launch?
On a completely unrelated note, I have this really great bridge that I need to sell for a bargain basement price. Are you interested?
Which is why the superior gaming platform is the PC! Oh wait, it's Windows is made by Microsoft and you can run Sony games on it, so maybe it's the worst? Ok, I'm voting for Milton Bradley! Anything but a console!
Even with the current gen XBox, you need XBox Live Gold -- the paid version -- to use Netflix, Hulu, and similar services. It is pretty fucking ridiculous even by Microsoft standards.
I'll let you in on a little tip.
Just the tip?
Because I'm pretty sure I know how that game ends ...
This signature is false.
You missed the point, it is not a case of "My platform isn't quite as shitty as yours." this time around.
That said we have reached a state of meta-fanboi-ism, the new argument is, "The platform I don't have and have no real clue about isn't quite as shitty as the platform you don't have and have no real clue about." And for the record, yes this is yet another internet derived regresion of the human species.
You could always buy a second PC and put it next to your TV. With SteamOS PCs from multiple manufacturers set to ship early next year, and with a fairly wide selection of games for SteamOS at launch, the standard PC is starting to look more and more like a contender for the fourth console.
the XBox is the best all-round device for the next generation.
What?? You can't play any 360 games on it, requires microsoft servers to run many of the games, it won't work without a Kinect plugged in and you have to let it phone home at least once a day. What's more you HAVE to have an xbox live gold SUBSCRIPTION to use it (can you say Maintenance agreeement anybody?) and the 500G hard drive inside is proprietary -- plus it costs $100 bucks more than PS4. You're high dude. Nobody wants that. Nobody except the Halo junkies.
Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
Neither of these are true anymore.
So you are anticipating the company that took away a highly touted software feature (the "Other OS" feature) via a required system update (as in required if you ever wanted to play another game on your system) is going to add new capabilities to the PS4 that they went to special effort to prevent upon launch?
On a completely unrelated note, I have this really great bridge that I need to sell for a bargain basement price. Are you interested?
Nowhere did I say I would buy the PS4, so no, not interested in your bridge either. I might buy it though begin 2016 or so. I understand this might be hard for you, but try to put yourself in the mind of Sony. Who is using DLNA? Is Sony, apart from selling the PS4, earning money with that? Would it have much impact on selling the PS4? Can we make deals with netflix, local cable companies, ...., to offer movies for rent? Can our televisions not do DLNA directly? Hey, yeah, who knew, our televesions do that http://www.sony.co.uk/hub/lcd-television/benefits/article/id/1237477951736, why would the PS4 be needed for an extra bridge?
Sony is a consumer electronics company. What they are doing does not seem to go counter to that.
Seriously, it has USB ports.
People who need the optical drive can just buy it separate.
Most of us would benefit from the inclusion of a 4Tb drive instead, and even the PS3 already had a gigabit nic for fast downloads.
It's also fairly easy to purchase a uid... if that was something anyone actually cared to spend money on.
You need to restart your computer. Hold down the Power button for several seconds or press the Restart button.
Note: I'm a former master race member who went to consoles, but not for the specs. I wanted the social interaction of multiplayer gaming on the same screen & couch
PC has supported same-screen multiplayer since 1999, when Windows added support for multiple USB game controllers. More conservatively, PC has supported it since 2006, when couch-sized PC monitors (read: HDTVs) became affordable and the market began to standardize on the wired Xbox 360 controller. Try some of these games.
Looking at both PS4 and Xbox 1(080)
I think the best all-round device, especially when it comes to price, is going to be a $2000 gamer-PC.
Or a cracked PS3...
I have 2 PS3s in my house, we have a huge libary of games for the PS3. I was a buyer day 1 with a 60GB unit that was backwards PS2 hardware compatible.
I would have bought a pair of PS4s on launch day if they had PS3 hardware inside of them, even if they cost $599 each.
Sony, pay attention... Some of us have money to spend, we don't mind... but what we do mind is having a bunch of boxes in front of our TVs. I will have a single console in front of my TV, not 2, not 3, just 1... I won't replace the PS3 with a PS4 because all our software will stop working.
Release a PS4 with PS3 hardware inside, even at a price premium, and I'm a customer. Not before.
On a completely unrelated note, I have this really great bridge that I need to sell for a bargain basement price. Are you interested?
If the bridge has a roof, and you can prove title, I can probably find some organization interested in its preservation.
But what I don't want is a bunch of consoles in front of my TVs, I like a clean look.
Why Sony isn't offering a $599 version with a built in PS3 is beyond me, I'd buy 2 of them.
Which is why the superior gaming platform is the PC! Oh wait, it's Windows is made by Microsoft
Who needs Windows when you have SteamOS?
You're expected to already have a live account for downloading games
On Xbox 360, buying games used a no-charge Xbox Live Silver account, not a paid Gold account.
and multi-player
True, provided that by multiplayer you specifically mean online multiplayer. But which console requires a recurring fee just to recognize more than one connected controller for two to four players on one console?
I'm actually going to have to call bullshit on this one. The xbox 360's "Proprietary" hdd was actually an off the shelf laptop HDD, i should know, i'm using one of them for my TVs built in tivo capability. If you opened the case, you found a bog standard 2.5 inch drive, mind you you needed a torx screwdriver to get at it, but it was just the same.
At Walmart, one can buy both food and a video game. At the strip mall, one can buy both clothes and a video game.
Where do you live that it takes several hours to get to a store?
Fort Wayne, Indiana, whose Citilink buses have regularly scheduled 36- or 60-hour outages. They stop running at around 6 PM on Saturday and don't start again until 6 AM on Monday, or 6 AM on Tuesday if Sunday or Monday is a major holiday.
I feel like he's explaining computers to the elderly; "here's the fan"..."this is called the Cee-Pee-Yoo"...."oh and this is a hard drive". Mind numbing. Then he mentions, "it wouldn't be very convenient if there was a separate power supply, so we incorporated it into the console"; wait, what? You mean like you've done since the very first PS??? Wow, that's so ground-breaking and awesome!!!
Where's the information about how GDDR5 is implemented? How different is the dedicated graphics from that of the PS3? What about an explanation of how the CPU and GPU are integrated? Nothing. It would have been nice if he explained how someone will "know that the case has been opened" too..is there some kind of breaking of the seal which is irreversible?
Are you fucking retarded?
I've been around on here longer than idiots like you have been accusing anyone who promotes one product over another as being a shill.
Microsoft made a lot of shitty claims, but they REVERSED them.
Sony continually fucked consumers over. Microsoft did too, just not as much.
You being here long doesn't change that you can be shilling for MS.
For the record, both MS and Sony suck dog shit, based on this pass records. I don't trust either of them.
Be seeing you...
I would have bought a pair of PS4s on launch day if they had PS3 hardware inside of them, even if they cost $599 each.
Sony, pay attention... Some of us have money to spend, we don't mind...
The problem is, you and I are a niche... the masses saw that $599 PS3 and said "Why does it cost so much, it's just a game console." rather than "What? The thing plays Blu-ray and DVD movies AND PS2 and PSone games, AND audio CD's and SACD's, AND has a built in web browser AND I can view my digital camera pictures on it AND download video?"
Look at all the complaints about that "high PS3 launch price" we see here on Slashdot all the time.
That being said, $599 in 2006 isn't the same as $599 in 2013... and by offering a $399 option, the $599 option wouldn't be so bad.
I owned a PS1, I bought the PS2 because it played all my PS1 games. By the time I bought a PS3, I had moved on from PS1 games but still had a ton of PS2 games. Today? No PS2 games left, so I could live without PS1/2, but I do require PS3 support to upgrade.
This is the first time in a very, very long time that I haven't bought the newest console on launch day, going way back to the SNES.
the company that took away a highly touted software feature (the "Other OS" feature)
Other OS was never advertised as a supported feature, despite people's belief that it "said so right on the box."
-- Will program for bandwidth
I've called a few people out who said it was "on the box"....because I still have my CECHE model's box...and it isn't on the box.
My guess is some Linux using geeks at some "shoppes" in Europe slapped a few Tux stickers on them...since it's seems that it's Europeans who seem to think it was "advertised".
Maybe to a bunch of piracy loving Euro-gamers living in formerly communist countries, OtherOS getting mentioned on Ars Technica or something counts as advertising...but here in the US.....no, it doesn't.
I didn't get my PS3 till 2008, that $599 price was a bit much...I paid $459 in 2008 for the CECHE MGS4 model. I had no actual interest in MGS4, I just wanted to get a backwards compatible model before they stopped selling them...getting two bundled DS3's was a good deal though. I have actually played PSone disc games on my PS3 and I transferred my PSone memory cards over. And unlike the vast majority of people complaining about OtherOS removal...I did have YDL on mine.
That said, there is a bright spot..."some" PS3 games will be available in download form for the PS4...and if you've paid for the PS3 version, you get the PS4 version as part of that. Just like how it works with PSone downloads for PSP/Vita/PS3. Pay once, download it on all of them. Flower, Flow, DCUO, a couple of others.
The optical format is mostly irrelevant; the Cell processor in the PS3 is a *completely* different architecture than the PS4, as well as being very byzantine and complex. It'd take them a lot of time and R&D to create an emulator, and even then it probably wouldn't be 100% compatible with old games. They might be able to put a Cell processor in there, but that would bump up the cost of the console considerably. This is a very different situation than say the Wii being able to play Gamecube games, because the Wii was basically just a souped-up Gamecube from a hardware POV.
Yes, in a perfect world everyone would love to keep their PS3 games, but Sony made the right choice by going with a more standardized architecture, even if it meant sacrificing backwards compatibility. The PS3 will still be there to play your old stuff.
The Valve SteamOS page still says:
You can play all your Windows and Mac games on your SteamOS machine, too. Just turn on your existing computer and run Steam as you always have - then your SteamOS machine can stream those games over your home network straight to your TV!
... wait, what?
A SteamOS console streams Windows games from your Windows PC. It also runs Steam games that have been ported to Linux.
I think they still produce (new) PS2 slims.
Which is what, 2% of the total amount of games available on Steam? Whilst I'd love them to port over a lot of the games to Linux, the reality is that the major titles that Steam has are still going to require a Windows machine to stream them to the SteamOS console. It may encourage development of games under Linux, which would be great, but at this point, SteamOS is going to require a Windows PC to run the majority of Steam games.
So in answer to your question "Who needs Windows when you have SteamOS?", I stand by my statement - SteamOS needs Windows. At this point. Let's hope it changes in future.
... wait, what?
Technically the HDD on the 360 was not proprietary (standard 2.5" Laptop drive) but there was no way (in the console) to format it, so if was not pre-formatted with the "proprietary" File-system from MS they wouldn't show up.
There are some "utilities" that can do this and allow any HD to work but since they only sold a few sizes they could flag it when you logged into live and know that they never made a 2TB HDD.)
Everything else is spot on and I don't trust the new HD thermal imaging like big-brother tele-screen forced add-on (which requires internet) but you also left out the not-so standard Bluetooth for the controllers (technically a standard BT radio but a proprietary protocol)
Really, and Netflix sub on top of that, I assume (otherwise it would be a great deal)?
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Well seeing as the PS3 didn't have DLNA streaming at launch it's not unthinkable.
Both Sony and Microsoft can kiss my ass. Nintendo is pretty much AWOL in the advanced technology department too.
Actually, I'm looking forward to the Oculus Rift experience. This will be a game changer for the PC platform as was the original 3Dfx Voodoo card back in the day (Diamond Monster3D). These next generation consoles are nothing more than evolutionary and nothing revolutionary.
Life is not for the lazy.
Depends on how many games you want installed at any given time. The whole point of going SSD is for the near instant load times. PC gamers know this all too well.
So the PS4 will have USB3.0 connectivity. I have no idea what kind of south-bridge it will use unless it's a totally custom chipset. But more than likely it will be SATA3 compliant. 600 MB/s read/write performance is nothing to scoff at. A 250GB Samsung 840 EVO lists for $180 and benchmarks at 540MB/s on reads.
Life is not for the lazy.
I can sell you all the PS3 hardware you'd like for $599 each.
With this console the question of running Linux won't even matter. The question will be how long until it boots Windows. It is no longer running hardware that is far removed from what exists in standard PCs, now it will be a question of getting the PS4 to dual boot the Sony PS4 OS and Windows, so that it can run Windows games as well.
The PS3 was somewhat useful to run Linux on from a computational standpoint because of the raw power of the Cell CPU. The PS4 runs an x86 instead; we can get more x86 computing power than this for $400 in other places and a warranty as well. The people who will want to dual boot this system are gamers who want the largest possible library available to play on their TV.
I would further bet that the console that wins this round, between PS4 and XBOne, will be the one that can first run windows games well on the TV. We would expect Microsoft to have a lead on this, but only time will tell.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
Are you fucking retarded?
No, but thanks for asking. I'm an MSDN subscriber through work and registered (paid) iOS developer on the side.
I've been around on here longer than idiots like you have been accusing anyone who promotes one product over another as being a shill.
Congrats on joining Slashdot before me. I think I was busy working and doing other interesting things.
Microsoft made a lot of shitty claims, but they REVERSED them.
So because they reversed them after intense public pressure, you are going to trust them and believe them? Consider how they ignored complaints about the Start screen in Windows 8 and gave a "start button" that just takes you back to the start screen in the Windows 8.1 update. I would consider that a big "f-you" to customers with a legitimate issue.
Sony continually fucked consumers over. Microsoft did too, just not as much.
What are you talking about? Only a few nerds raged about the removal of the Linux on the PS3 and the DRM on some CDs only affected windows users who bought specific CD and was only effective in installing because of how Microsoft implemented their "auto-play" functionality in windows. In that latter case, Microsoft is partially to blame and they were really big proponents of DRM on everything.
In the grand scheme of things, most consumers were not negatively effected by Sony's missteps but Microsoft screwed over a lot of people with their "PlaysforSure" and Zune products.
The platform that I spend the majority of my time on is Windows because that is what I use at work and my programming language of choice at work is C#. So obviously I'm not a blind Microsoft hater but you do seem to be trying to gloss over what Microsoft has done by trying to create some sort of moral equivalency between Sony and Microsoft.
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
So because I said Sony has done more evil than MS, I'm shilling for MS?
Ahh well. People will think what they want to think. It's easier to call me a shill than to respond to my argument I suppose.
If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
How does being an MSDN subscriber through work prove that you are not retarded?
I admit, It was an unneecssary insult. But calling me a shill straight of the bat is also an insult of sorts.
I never said that I trusted Microsoft implicitly, I said that they have done far less evil than Sony, as far as when it comes to consoles and screwing over consumers.
Your resorting to Windows 8 arguments and other anti-microsoft arguments that have nothing to do with what I said, which was specifically in the domain of consoles.
In this post that I'm replying to, you actually make some good arguments. It's a shame you didn't just make them first, instead of resorting to the shill ad-hominem. It actually shows that you are not retarded and can reason someone. It also shows you lack the ability to think critically and respond emotionally at first instance.
Good luck with your MSDN subcription though. I hope it furthers you in your other endeavors of proving your intellectual competence.
If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
So, let me get this straight.
You refute the points of my argument you disagree with by:
Drawing from Microsofts PC history, which has nothing to do with their console.
Excusing the Sony DRM debacle because it wasn't the same part of Sony that is responsible for the PS4
Listing the standards Sony helped created, which does nothing to invalidate the proprietary standards they now enforce
Listing the open standards the PS4 supports, which does nothing to invalidate the proprietary standards they now enforce
Well, I'm convinced.
Not.
If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
Yes, please buy bunches of these or some XBox Ones if you must. Life is too short to waste on tech support and these things can be maintained by a tweenager once the initial internet connection is established.
Did you notice Sony will only let you watch streamed Video and Music sold to you by them?
No DLNA support
No USB support
No using a PS4 for home media
I've been called a paid Sony Shill on these forums, and I'm now saying that the XBox is the best all-round device for the next generation.
That sucks but I don't see how the Xbox can be any better in these regards, speaking from my experience with the PS3 and the Xbox360.
If you want this kind of freedom then you need a general purpose computing device (i.e. a PC). The consoles are very locked-down, special purpose hardware, designed specifically for you to consume content in ways they intended, generating sustained revenue for MS/Sony in the process. If you're buying a console expecting anything more than that then you're bound to be disappointed. On the other hand, a general purpose computing device (i.e. a PC) of comparable processing capabilities would also cost you a fair bit more.
Yeah the MS hate gets a bit fucking tiring at times.
The xbox controller is better than the psx.
The xbox online market place is better than the psx
The xbox menu system is better than the psx
I own both consoles, and if I want a game that's on xbox and ps3 I usually go with the xbox.
And no, I am not a shill.
There are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third is statistics.
In all of your posts you haven't actually *said* what these evils that Sony have committed are. We all know what Microsoft did and what they have done in the past, but as the other poster rightly adds, a few hacks and the whole Linux on PS3 thing are the only major gaffes; unless you are privy to some information us mere mortals aren't?
If I remember correctly, wiggling the Adventure cartridge in the old Atari game console could give you a substantially different map. Probably because it corrupted some RAM somewhere.
Holy crap! Maybe that's how I got into that bizarre backdoor mode in Adventure when I was a kid? It only happened once and I could never replicate it. My character slipped into or behind the wall in one of the castles once, allowing me to wander around the map safe from the dragons until I went back through to the other side then it returned to normal and I could never do it again. It was weird but exciting!
"Paid shill anyone? Did you forget the Eye of Sauron on the Xbox One?"
Not arguing for one console or the other but FWIW Microsoft has backtracked on this too now, Kinect is no longer mandatory, you can turn it off, put it in no video mode, have it in always on mode, or just outright unplug it.
So credit to Microsoft, they've listened - no always on requirement, no mandatory kinect, indie game development and publishing support on standard consoles as dev kits coming in 2014.
At this point they have certainly taken efforts to deal with each and every one of the key complaints about the console relative to what the PS4 offered.
"That's still better than Microsoft whose response to Xbox Live hacks is to pretend they're not happening."
To be fair, there's no evidence they actually are. Of course people who fall for phishing scams are going to say "I never fell for it!" no matter how smart they think they are. The fact is humans are imperfect, even if you know all the tricks in the book you're still fallible - I know all the tricks in the book but many years back I still ran an infected executable when I was half asleep realising exactly what I was doing only after my finger had twitched to click the mouse only to fortunately be saved by the fact the payload was an old one easily intercepted by AV.
The problem is that there are literally millions of accounts that haven't been breached and the level of breaches seems small enough to fit into the possibility of mere phishing or similar.
At worst XBL uses MS Passport accounts so it's possible that people are having them hacked elsewhere - i.e. do they have braindead security questions perhaps?
Certainly their network hasn't been breached though because otherwise the issue would be far more widespread.
Until there's evidence of a widespread hack it's more sensible to just assume it's people who did something stupid trying to excuse themselves - Microsoft has what, 50 million XBL accounts? It's not unsurprising to have thousands of people out of that many do something stupid and pretend it's not their fault. It is however unrealistic to suggest they've suffered some kind of major breach when the number of people effected is only in the thousands, not the millions.
In contrast we outright know that Sony was hacked, precisely because millions were affected.
Otherwise I don't really disagree with all your other points. I just think the "XBL hacked!" meme is just nonsense, there's no evidence for it other than hearsay from a handful of people who pretend they're too smart to fall for phishing scams, use weak passwords, or have stupid security questions. The fact they were victims of their own fallibility is a far more likely explanation still until some real actual evidence to the contrary arises.
Goog unboxing
Pretty much everything you've said is wrong. Some of it was true at one point, hardly any of it is now.
"You can't play any 360 games on it"
You'll be able to play some as they're porting them and making them downloadable, but if we're talking about old disc based games then you can't play PS3 games on the PS4 either. What's your point?
"requires microsoft servers to run many of the games"
False. Requires Microsoft servers to run no games announced to date.
"it won't work without a Kinect plugged in"
False. They backtracked on this and you can now unplug Kinect and still use your console.
"and you have to let it phone home at least once a day"
False. They backtracked on this days after announcing it. It was on the news. Everywhere. Where have you been?
"What's more you HAVE to have an xbox live gold SUBSCRIPTION to use it"
False. No idea where you even got that one from. Some features require gold as has always been the case, but then, on the Playstation, some features require PS+ too, so it's no different. You don't need it to play any games though.
"and the 500G hard drive inside is proprietary"
This is true. Though unlike with the PS4 you can use external storage instead so there'll never be a space issue on the One whilst the PS4 is limited by capacity of laptop sized drive technology.
"plus it costs $100 bucks more than PS4"
True, but you also get Kinect. Move isn't standard with the PS4.
"You're high dude. Nobody wants that. Nobody except the Halo junkies."
Given that Halo was the best selling franchise of the last generation then that means they can at least expect to shift many tens of millions of units.
So tell me, were you genuinely misinformed about all these things, did you honestly not know that nearly all of what you said was false? I can't figure out if you just never pay any attention to the news (even that posted here on this very site) or if you're just a troll. Which is it?
"That sucks but I don't see how the Xbox can be any better in these regards, speaking from my experience with the PS3 and the Xbox360."
What experience is that? I have both a PS3 and 360 and they both support things like DLNA, audio CDs and so forth.
The PS4 is the first console to announce that they wont.
It was only starting with the slim models that you had to buy the bracket too.
Or reuse the bracket attached to the old drive.
No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
That's a fair point, I didn't list out the evils because I thought they were well known by the crowd here on /.
Strictly in the domain of consoles, it was mainly the way they removed functionality from a device, forcing expensive proprietary formats, the hotz lawsuit, the lik-sang saga..
I dunno. For me that is sufficient.
The worst thing Microsoft seems to do with their consoles is charge for xbox live to be able to watch netflix.
If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
OK, I'll address these points one by one.
Not convinced...
That's still better than Microsoft whose response to Xbox Live hacks is to pretend they're not happening.
Here you go sir, this shit sandwhich has slightly less filling than the other one. Seriously, MS might be worse in this regard, but you haven't addressed the point. Finding an *EVEN* *WORSE* offender does not excuse or address it in any way. And from what I remeber, they did try to cover it up until it became so bad that it was impossible.
Sony is actually a number of different divisions operating under a single name.
Owned by the same company: it is the same company. So what that it's a different division. Clearly the corporate head is fine with their divisions abusing their customers.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Oh, yes they do support DLNA. What I meant to say was that their codecs and container format support is so poor that it makes them practically useless as a living room media player, DLNA or not. I don't expect the next-gens to be any better in this regard.
Drawing from Microsofts PC history, which has nothing to do with their console.
Excusing the Sony DRM debacle because it wasn't the same part of Sony that is responsible for the PS4
Did you seriously say those back to back with a straight face?
One of the reasons you listed was from a different division of Sony... and yet you call foul when I include things done by a different division of Microsoft. Make up your mind whether different divisions of the same company count or not.
Listing the standards Sony helped created, which does nothing to invalidate the proprietary standards they now enforce
Listing the open standards the PS4 supports, which does nothing to invalidate the proprietary standards they now enforce
The list of standards Sony helped create was there specifically to address Blu-Ray, because some people include that under "proprietary" and I couldn't tell if you were one of those people.
Speaking of proprietary, which "proprietary standards" are you referring to? You never actually said and it's impossible for me to respond to the vague assertions you've actually made.
Oh, and it should go without saying that mentioning things that both consoles do is off topic, as per the conclusion to your original post:
GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
Here you go sir, this shit sandwhich has slightly less filling than the other one. Seriously, MS might be worse in this regard, but you haven't addressed the point. Finding an *EVEN* *WORSE* offender does not excuse or address it in any way. And from what I remeber, they did try to cover it up until it became so bad that it was impossible.
The post I was replying to concludes that the Xbox One was a better system because of things Sony had done.
My post was just refuting that by pointing out that MS is just as bad.
Sony is actually a number of different divisions operating under a single name.
Owned by the same company: it is the same company. So what that it's a different division. Clearly the corporate head is fine with their divisions abusing their customers.
And by the same token, Microsoft's Microsoft Devices and Studios Group and Microsoft Operating Systems Engineering Group are owned by the same company.
The point I was trying to make is that you can either include all the divisions owned by each company or just the console divisions. However, pointing out something bad done by a different division of one company while at the same time dismissing things done by different divisions done at the other company because it "has nothing to do with their console" (yes, GGP said that to me in his latest reply) is intentionally misrepresenting things. Either way, both companies have done some pretty heinous things over the years.
Personally, I have no intention of buying any consoles this generation, which is a change from owning all 3 from last generation. At this point, I'd just rather use my PC.
GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
You're possibly right, I haven't tried many different formats, but don't the most common audio/video formats work? Things like divx, xvid, matroska, mp4?
I know I've played at least some of those okay in the past.
Yet.
Watch for Penguins, they eat Apples and throw rocks at Windows.
It also has the best battle system of any FF, I happen to like the story since it's easier to follow than in the other FF games (thanks to the log), I don't mind that the game is streamlined because I'm ocd and this actually lets me enjoy the game and my surroundings instead of hunting for items that I won't use up anyway because I'm ocd. Oh yeah and consumables don't matter in this game because you're all healed up after each battle. This let's you treat each encounter separately and allows them to test you more because they assume you will be at full health. Also, for a new composer to the series, the music is fresh and sounds amazing. I just love this game.
Paid shill anyone?
My guess is that, like me, he's been burned by Sony before and thinks anyone who would give those evil bastards their money is stupid. As much as I detest MS software and practices (including the ones you mentioned) I might have posted the same comment.
As he's sitting at -1 flamebait I'd say there are a lot of Sony shills with mod points. After all, who would be offended by pointing out the evil shit Sony's done? That said, I've been modded down for criticizing Microsoft. Shills or morons, your guess is as good as mine. I certainly wouldn't be offended if you trash talked a piece of software or equipment I liked.
XBone vs Saurony? A pox on both their houses, the dastardly deeds done by both developers and manufacturers is why I don't play computer games any more, they ran me completely out of the market.
That said, I'm nostalgic about my gaming days, I'm posting my old Quake site's Christmas page next month, with all the Quake II skins (including the nudechick skin), and MP3s of "I Saw Mommie Killing Santa Clause" (Santa and Mrs. Clause skins there for DL) and... um, I forgot what the other MP3 was, it's been ten years.
But today? I'm done with Sony, done with MS, done with anything DRM or internet-only. Sadly, I'm old enough to remember what freedom was like.
Free Martian Whores!
matroska is definitely a no go on both. mp4 is recognized at least on the ps3, but can only play a very limited number of codecs. In the end I just said to hell with it and built a small XBMC box.
I do, in order to choose from hundreds of thousands of games and not just play Half-Life.
You're right, I should exclude the Sony root-kit. My bad, wasn't thinking clearly I guess.
The list of standards Sony helped created is meaningless...there was no point to include it, because it does nothing to invalidate the proprietary standards I was referring to. It's a fallacious line of reasoning. If someone says they did something bad, you don't point and say yes but look at what they did good.
In the case of PS3 proprietary standards would be memory cards and in the case of the vita the charging cable.
I also refer you to the lik-sang saga: http://www.lik-sang.com/
I'm not sure how you arrive at the conclusion that mentioning things both consoles do is off-topic because I said XBOX is a better platform.
If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
Shill harder, Sony puppet. Also, you're just some stupid little punk kid born in '83, so shut the fuck up. You have no experience and no knowledge, junior.
Good to see the playground my-console-is-better-than-your-console war is still going, I remember watching the SNES and Megadrive owners fighting it out when I was in junior school.
Now get off my lawn!
Other OS was included to justify PS3 being a PC and have lower tax in European Union.
Never had the issue you describe. I purchased the enclosure, completely formatted an old drive in windows, installed in the enclosure, installed into the 360 arcade edition and the system formatted it for use.
I don't play the 360 much, but did purchase GTA5 on release and played online for over a month.... never had any issues.
A south-bridge? I haven't seen one of those in a computer for 10 years now. Controllers are built on to CPU dies these days with direct connections. North-bridges are a thing of the past too and I'm sure Sony will not be using them.
The "south-bridge" equivalent has been superseded by the PCH (Platform Controller Hub) which controls USB and SATA connectivity. The "north-bridge" no longer exists as it's function is already on CPU die. For example the memory controller and on-board video.
So while technically you are correct, the old 'Intel Hub Architecture' no longer exists as a north and south bridge chipset, effectively there is a "south bridge" still in existance in that a separate chipset is required to provide SATA connectivity. SATA is not part of the CPU die.
Life is not for the lazy.