They are just splitting their marketing into two segments. It's overpriced and the performance isn't really worth it. GeForce MX chips of any type are terribly limited in their design. If I am going to build an integrated system, then why am I going to go the expensive route, when I can just having something cheaper. Some people, just want a computer to have internet access and do word processing. A more expensive alternative like the nForce doesn't do much for these people when they are looking for something that is really cost effective. It isn't on par with the performance of higher-end non-integrated machines. So where does the machine fit? Not in the integrated machines that I build.
What's wrong about what he said? You are comparing an entry level HARDWARE based RAID controller to a more expensive HARDWARE based RAID controller.
What's the difference? The more expensive controller feature RAID 5 implementation and 6 channel control. Oh... It also typically costs $500. Not exactly cost effective to a home users that's aiming for the spead of simple striping.
The HPT370 is exactly what he said it was. "Both the HighPoint and FastTrak RAID controllers pop up a BIOS screen before booting that let you configure the drives. They both support RAID 0 (striping), 1 (mirroring), and 0+1 (both i.e. 4 drives). They are presented to the operating system as a single SCSI drive attached to a SCSI controller. They are bootable." "This is not software RAID. This is not a 66MHz PCI Ultra 160 SCSI RAID controller with 128MB of battery-backed cache, but it is hardware RAID, and two striped 7200RPM ATA66/100 drives outperforms a single drive any day."
Here. I reposted what he said so that you can read it this time.
These are real hardware RAID controllers, but only in a limited sense. Essentially, they are the same types of controllers that go into seperate cards, UDMA controllers with extra functions at best, but they are RAID controllers. It really just depends on the type of RAID operations that you want to acomplish. Most of these are only capable of striping/mirroring/combinations. It isn't really "software controlled," as they are perfectly functional WITHOUT the use of external drivers, however, they don't operate the way they were intended without them. I know this works for fact, because I have used them MANY times outside of a Windows based environment, on multiple OS's, and using multiple drive utilities, like Ghost. They function without a hitch. I assume that this software that people are referring is merely a special busmastering driver.
The Highpoint controllers are fine. Some people find them perfectly useable for what they were designed for, simple RAID 0/1/0+1 implementation. They can also be used as a seperate IDE controller. I have one in my Abit KT7A-RAID and my burst transfer read rates (two Deskstar 60GXP drives) are higher than that of one the fastest Seagate Cheetah SCSI drives. I have no complaints, especially for what it cost me to implement it all. I can handle a +15 MBPs increase on a drive setup that costs hundreds of dollars less.
"The PC-TV revolution is coming and the only one poised to take advantage is Microsoft."
Finally, someone who might be able to agree with what I am trying to say.
Enter X-Box, which is essentially the true firestarter of the PC/TV revolution. Like it or not, it's coming, and it will be done with the X-Box.
Why else are other companies going the integrated route? This is being done in order to keep up with Microsofts new specifications for PCs, being closed boxes with integrated audio, video, and networking. These are going to be designed to not use any enduser upgradeability aside from USB/Firewire type solutions. While you are at it, why not use an HDTV with an 15 pin RGBHV plug as a monitor.
I am all for the classic style of PC, but that is all going to change, like it or not.
Good post! I would like to mention though that the VIA integrated boards don't have video capabilities that are at all close to the nForce's. Integrated Savage 2000 is pretty nasty. That is where the real advantage lies in the nForce. Unfortunately, the MX line of chips from nVidia are terribly stripped down from their full-bore counterparts. I don't particularly find the FG2MX to be a fast chip by any means, but it certainly has many advantages over te S3 Savage2000, besides a big name.
"Not only that, but since it's in the northbridge, the interface is equivalent to AGP 6x."
Wow. That must mean that the VIA integrated "S3 Savage 2000" systems must be equivalent to AGP6X sine they are integrated northbridge/graphics machines!
Please... Where in the hell did you come up with this?
"I cannot find any reference to stability, and my experience of Via chipsets, compared to Intel and AMD chipsets, is that they are less stable and more likely to have problems..."
Aren't we comparing VIA to nForce here? By the way. Many people have little problems with VIA chips. Some people have loads of problems. When you get into building a system with poorly designed parts, like the SB Live!, then the VIA boards become difficult to work with. Wonder why? The VIA boards don't tolerate the resource hogging og the Live! and Audigy cards. Stick a Santa Cruz or a Phillips card in the machine and they work beautifully. They sound better too.
If you had two people working on a VIA machine that you built, then you probably didn't do something right. Granted, VIA machines can be more difficult to set up, but they often are MUCH more configurable than an Intel machine. That may be based upon the BIOS options for the individual machine, but I have never had a machine from Intel that had the configurability of my Abit KT7A-RAID. YOu just have to know what you are doing. Configuring a computer goes deeper than putting parts together and installing Windows/Drivers/Software. There is a base level of configuration that should be done to any machine to achieve performance and reliability.
FYI: My Abit KT7A-RAID Via KT133A based board never crashes, even while running Windows. So much for a less stable machine that is "more likely to have problems."
So here you are, comparing an nForce board, which you have probably never used/configured/etc. to VIA based boards that you have problems with because you have difficulty configuring computers. I fail to understand why you can suggest the nForce as a viable product yet. Let me guess though... You have a GeForce in your computer.
I wish people would stop using shitty compression programs like Xing and start using Lame, Blade (a bit bassie) and other good encoders. Most MP3s I hear from the internet are pretty bad. Besides that, most people also encode them at really low bitrates. 128k doesn't cut it. 192k is great, but only if it is VBR. It just depends on the encoder. MP3 is still a very acceptible format, when encoded properly.
Yeah. That always pissed me off about their webpage. They wanted it to be too pretty, but didn't realize that they could do it without using Frontpage. Opera didn't like the page at all. That might be because the page wasn't standards compliant.
Microsoft and Co. are trying to tell you that this is beneficial to the X-Box somehow. For some reason, this seems vaguely similar to the N-Force hardware.
Hmm... Molex connectors, IDE cables, standard computer PSU unit. A very standard-looking CPU. Thank you Mr. Patrick Norton. You just gave me all of the answers that I wanted. That is why I like your show.
Re:A PS2 with different games
on
XBox Released
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· Score: 1
I have the European version ready for import. I also hear from a friend that chain stores like Software Etc./Gamestop/Funco Land might carry it. It is in their computer system as a product that they will carry, at least.
As a matter of fact, the best games did not run WinCE. They used SEGA's own Dreamcast OS.
Re:Hardware=irrelevant, Games=the whole point
on
XBox Released
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· Score: 1
The Dreamcast had great games too. People just don't want anything original. They want dumbass sequels. You can have this and more in a PS2.
Re:A PS2 with different games
on
XBox Released
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· Score: 2, Interesting
Heck. Newer games for the Dreamcast, like Shenmue 2 still outclass everything else available for consoles. Never have I seen so much detail go into a console game. It's astounding.
Re:A PS2 with different games
on
XBox Released
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· Score: 1
No, most people said that it was INFERIOR to the Dreamcast. Only now is it starting to come close to producing games that are as technically advanced. The X-Box is a whole different ballpark. The PS2 doesn't even come close. Fortunately for Sony, they have some good games on their side.
That is completely false. Game consoles DO crash. You just don't realize it beacue it doesn't usually give you a verbose error. Fortunately, most games go through QA testing. Sometimes, they get hung up on crash bugs that they can't easily reproduce. This slows down publication of the game severely.
Re:XBOX advertisement blitz
on
XBox Released
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· Score: 1
Hey, now. The Sega Dreamcast is still technically no pushover, even if it is a few years old. It's an awesome machine.
In regards to FMV. Isn't that what Sony has been pushing upon brainless zealots for years now? Can we say Final Fantasy?
Have fun watching low-rez PS2 games on your hi-rez HD-TV. All it does is change the aspect ratio. The PS2 can't afford to sacrifice performace for higher resolution. Shit... Even many Dreamcast games offer the 16:9 aspect ratio. PS2 doesn't evenhave real VGA compatibility. What a nice console. It does have some interesting games though (finally), and that's what matters, right?
That isn't totally true. It is quite dependant on your IDE controller and the mode(s) that it operates in. The CPU is important for any IDE controller. Other special controllers do the same thing. I have a Highpoint 370 RAID controller on my mainboard, and it uses a bit of extra CPU time. There isn't any problem with that though, because the performance increase is well worth it.
The major issue is the fact that current IDE drives are much too slow to take advantage of the bus. It doesn't matter really if you have ATA66, ATA100, or ATA133. They all are about the same when it comes to the mechanical hardware at the other end.
The only way that you can truely take advantage of the bus is to use your drives in a RAID-0 array. Still though, even with two drives in a RAID-0 array, they seldom take advantage of the high bus speeds. It is impossible for the current IDE drives to spin fast enough and read/write enough data.
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They are just splitting their marketing into two segments. It's overpriced and the performance isn't really worth it. GeForce MX chips of any type are terribly limited in their design. If I am going to build an integrated system, then why am I going to go the expensive route, when I can just having something cheaper. Some people, just want a computer to have internet access and do word processing. A more expensive alternative like the nForce doesn't do much for these people when they are looking for something that is really cost effective. It isn't on par with the performance of higher-end non-integrated machines. So where does the machine fit? Not in the integrated machines that I build.
What's wrong about what he said? You are comparing an entry level HARDWARE based RAID controller to a more expensive HARDWARE based RAID controller.
What's the difference? The more expensive controller feature RAID 5 implementation and 6 channel control. Oh... It also typically costs $500. Not exactly cost effective to a home users that's aiming for the spead of simple striping.
The HPT370 is exactly what he said it was. "Both the HighPoint and FastTrak RAID controllers pop up a BIOS screen before booting that let you configure the drives. They both support RAID 0 (striping), 1 (mirroring), and 0+1 (both i.e. 4 drives). They are presented to the operating system as a single SCSI drive attached to a SCSI controller. They are bootable." "This is not software RAID. This is not a 66MHz PCI Ultra 160 SCSI RAID controller with 128MB of battery-backed cache, but it is hardware RAID, and two striped 7200RPM ATA66/100 drives outperforms a single drive any day."
Here. I reposted what he said so that you can read it this time.
These are real hardware RAID controllers, but only in a limited sense. Essentially, they are the same types of controllers that go into seperate cards, UDMA controllers with extra functions at best, but they are RAID controllers. It really just depends on the type of RAID operations that you want to acomplish. Most of these are only capable of striping/mirroring/combinations. It isn't really "software controlled," as they are perfectly functional WITHOUT the use of external drivers, however, they don't operate the way they were intended without them. I know this works for fact, because I have used them MANY times outside of a Windows based environment, on multiple OS's, and using multiple drive utilities, like Ghost. They function without a hitch. I assume that this software that people are referring is merely a special busmastering driver.
The Highpoint controllers are fine. Some people find them perfectly useable for what they were designed for, simple RAID 0/1/0+1 implementation. They can also be used as a seperate IDE controller. I have one in my Abit KT7A-RAID and my burst transfer read rates (two Deskstar 60GXP drives) are higher than that of one the fastest Seagate Cheetah SCSI drives. I have no complaints, especially for what it cost me to implement it all. I can handle a +15 MBPs increase on a drive setup that costs hundreds of dollars less.
"The PC-TV revolution is coming and the only one poised to take advantage is Microsoft."
Finally, someone who might be able to agree with what I am trying to say.
Enter X-Box, which is essentially the true firestarter of the PC/TV revolution. Like it or not, it's coming, and it will be done with the X-Box.
Why else are other companies going the integrated route? This is being done in order to keep up with Microsofts new specifications for PCs, being closed boxes with integrated audio, video, and networking. These are going to be designed to not use any enduser upgradeability aside from USB/Firewire type solutions. While you are at it, why not use an HDTV with an 15 pin RGBHV plug as a monitor.
I am all for the classic style of PC, but that is all going to change, like it or not.
I meant ProSavage, which integrates Savage2000 with one of the other chips, I think.
Good post! I would like to mention though that the VIA integrated boards don't have video capabilities that are at all close to the nForce's. Integrated Savage 2000 is pretty nasty. That is where the real advantage lies in the nForce. Unfortunately, the MX line of chips from nVidia are terribly stripped down from their full-bore counterparts. I don't particularly find the FG2MX to be a fast chip by any means, but it certainly has many advantages over te S3 Savage2000, besides a big name.
"Not only that, but since it's in the northbridge, the interface is equivalent to AGP 6x."
Wow. That must mean that the VIA integrated "S3 Savage 2000" systems must be equivalent to AGP6X sine they are integrated northbridge/graphics machines!
Please... Where in the hell did you come up with this?
"I cannot find any reference to stability, and my experience of Via chipsets, compared to Intel and AMD chipsets, is that they are less stable and more likely to have problems..."
Aren't we comparing VIA to nForce here? By the way. Many people have little problems with VIA chips. Some people have loads of problems. When you get into building a system with poorly designed parts, like the SB Live!, then the VIA boards become difficult to work with. Wonder why? The VIA boards don't tolerate the resource hogging og the Live! and Audigy cards. Stick a Santa Cruz or a Phillips card in the machine and they work beautifully. They sound better too.
If you had two people working on a VIA machine that you built, then you probably didn't do something right. Granted, VIA machines can be more difficult to set up, but they often are MUCH more configurable than an Intel machine. That may be based upon the BIOS options for the individual machine, but I have never had a machine from Intel that had the configurability of my Abit KT7A-RAID. YOu just have to know what you are doing. Configuring a computer goes deeper than putting parts together and installing Windows/Drivers/Software. There is a base level of configuration that should be done to any machine to achieve performance and reliability.
FYI: My Abit KT7A-RAID Via KT133A based board never crashes, even while running Windows. So much for a less stable machine that is "more likely to have problems."
So here you are, comparing an nForce board, which you have probably never used/configured/etc. to VIA based boards that you have problems with because you have difficulty configuring computers. I fail to understand why you can suggest the nForce as a viable product yet. Let me guess though... You have a GeForce in your computer.
I wish people would stop using shitty compression programs like Xing and start using Lame, Blade (a bit bassie) and other good encoders. Most MP3s I hear from the internet are pretty bad. Besides that, most people also encode them at really low bitrates. 128k doesn't cut it. 192k is great, but only if it is VBR. It just depends on the encoder. MP3 is still a very acceptible format, when encoded properly.
Yeah. That always pissed me off about their webpage. They wanted it to be too pretty, but didn't realize that they could do it without using Frontpage. Opera didn't like the page at all. That might be because the page wasn't standards compliant.
Microsoft and Co. are trying to tell you that this is beneficial to the X-Box somehow. For some reason, this seems vaguely similar to the N-Force hardware.
Hmm... Molex connectors, IDE cables, standard computer PSU unit. A very standard-looking CPU. Thank you Mr. Patrick Norton. You just gave me all of the answers that I wanted. That is why I like your show.
I have the European version ready for import. I also hear from a friend that chain stores like Software Etc./Gamestop/Funco Land might carry it. It is in their computer system as a product that they will carry, at least.
Grolsch is great too.
I completely agree. I have over 50 great Dreamcast games. The game library rocks! People just want shitty sequels. They can get that in their PS2.
Think key words here. Sony and Playstation. I don't know why everyone loves their products so much.
SOME games used the SuperH Dreamcast WinCE. Most of them were the shitty games, too. The best games used the SEGA Dreamcast OS instead.
How many more times do we need to tell you guys this? The damn console is 3 years old now.
As a matter of fact, the best games did not run WinCE. They used SEGA's own Dreamcast OS.
The Dreamcast had great games too. People just don't want anything original. They want dumbass sequels. You can have this and more in a PS2.
Heck. Newer games for the Dreamcast, like Shenmue 2 still outclass everything else available for consoles. Never have I seen so much detail go into a console game. It's astounding.
No, most people said that it was INFERIOR to the Dreamcast. Only now is it starting to come close to producing games that are as technically advanced. The X-Box is a whole different ballpark. The PS2 doesn't even come close. Fortunately for Sony, they have some good games on their side.
Only 5 things in this world can be perfect:
A)Heineken
B)Sega Dreamcast
C)Linux/Unix/BSD
D)pr0n
E)AMD
That isn't in any particular order, either. Pizza comes close, but isn't always perfect.
That is completely false. Game consoles DO crash. You just don't realize it beacue it doesn't usually give you a verbose error. Fortunately, most games go through QA testing. Sometimes, they get hung up on crash bugs that they can't easily reproduce. This slows down publication of the game severely.
Hey, now. The Sega Dreamcast is still technically no pushover, even if it is a few years old. It's an awesome machine.
In regards to FMV. Isn't that what Sony has been pushing upon brainless zealots for years now? Can we say Final Fantasy?
Have fun watching low-rez PS2 games on your hi-rez HD-TV. All it does is change the aspect ratio. The PS2 can't afford to sacrifice performace for higher resolution. Shit... Even many Dreamcast games offer the 16:9 aspect ratio. PS2 doesn't evenhave real VGA compatibility. What a nice console. It does have some interesting games though (finally), and that's what matters, right?
That isn't totally true. It is quite dependant on your IDE controller and the mode(s) that it operates in. The CPU is important for any IDE controller. Other special controllers do the same thing. I have a Highpoint 370 RAID controller on my mainboard, and it uses a bit of extra CPU time. There isn't any problem with that though, because the performance increase is well worth it.
The major issue is the fact that current IDE drives are much too slow to take advantage of the bus. It doesn't matter really if you have ATA66, ATA100, or ATA133. They all are about the same when it comes to the mechanical hardware at the other end.
The only way that you can truely take advantage of the bus is to use your drives in a RAID-0 array. Still though, even with two drives in a RAID-0 array, they seldom take advantage of the high bus speeds. It is impossible for the current IDE drives to spin fast enough and read/write enough data.