As the tentacles of systemd reach out and penetrate more areas of the system, more applications will inevitably require systemd which means that a Linux installation without systemd will only be able to run a small subset of Linux apps.
This is totaly arse-backwards.
systemd isn't "reaching out and penetrating" anything. People writing apps need features that systemd provides. If you want to use some other init package just provide those features. Maybe bundle them up in a package called systemd-shim.
But consolekit seens to be dead. systemd provides logind which does what the DM's want. If someone would write an equivalent for sysvinit or upstart, or provide a way of running logind unser sysvinit or upstart then whole bunches of whining could stop.
SystemD is controversial enough that Debian should give the user the choice to decide whether they want systemd.
Well, lookee here:
# apt-cache show init Package: init Source: init-system-helpers Version: 1.21 Essential: yes Installed-Size: 29 Maintainer: pkg-systemd-maintainers Architecture: amd64 Pre-Depends: systemd-sysv | sysvinit-core | upstart Description-en: System-V-like init utilities - metapackage
This package is an essential metapackage which allows you to select from
three available init systems in Debian (systemd, sysvinit, upstart) while
ensuring that one of these is available on the system at all times. Description-md5: e52554c23609041bfbca72fe27a132f9 Section: metapackages Priority: required
Oblig. libertarian disclaimer: I don't care what other people do on their own property.
But the original description was:
But the main thing was this thing screamed when its speed got up. Not sure what it was, whether it was the bearings, the motor or maybe the brakes but it started to sound like a jet turbine spinning up when it was going fast
Your right to throw your arms around stops at the end of my nose. Your right to make loud noises stops at my ears.
Assuming the regulations are actually halfway reasonable. People were saying they were obviously set up to protect the existing taxi system which has already "bought into" the exorbitant fees.
As an engineer-type mindset, if there's an easy way to do something more efficiently and regulations are standing in the way, I blame the regulations, not the new solution for sufficiently stupid values of regulation (obviously safety regs are a different matter).
In most places there are ways to fix "unreasonable" regulations.
And, where those places are democracies, they don't necessarily involve breaking the law.
(Please don't bring up MLK, segregation, Rosa Parks or anything like that - this is about Taxi regulations).
So you can search the logs on things like the process group that wrote the message, for example:
# systemctl status gdm3
gdm.service - GNOME Display Manager
Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/gdm.service; enabled)
Drop-In:/run/systemd/generator/gdm3.service.d
50-gdm3-$x-display-manager.conf
Active: active (running) since Mon 2014-11-10 11:09:02 CET; 1 weeks 0 days ago
Process: 873 ExecStartPre=/usr/share/gdm/generate-config (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
Process: 865 ExecStartPre=/bin/sh -c [ "$(cat/etc/X11/default-display-manager 2>/dev/null)" = "/usr/sbin/gdm3" ] (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
Main PID: 879 (gdm3)
CGroup:/system.slice/gdm.service
879/usr/sbin/gdm3
905/usr/bin/Xorg:0 -novtswitch -background none -noreset -verb...
Nov 10 11:10:08 celtic gdm-Xorg-:0[905]: (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "800x600"x...) Nov 10 11:10:08 celtic gdm-Xorg-:0[905]: (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "1152x864"...) Nov 10 11:10:08 celtic gdm-Xorg-:0[905]: (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "1280x720"...) Nov 10 11:10:08 celtic gdm-Xorg-:0[905]: (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "1280x1024...) Nov 10 11:10:08 celtic gdm-Xorg-:0[905]: (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "1400x1050...) Nov 10 11:10:08 celtic gdm-Xorg-:0[905]: (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "1366x768"...) Nov 10 11:10:08 celtic gdm-Xorg-:0[905]: (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "1440x900"...) Nov 10 11:10:08 celtic gdm-Xorg-:0[905]: (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "1600x1200...) Nov 10 11:10:08 celtic gdm-Xorg-:0[905]: (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "1680x1050...) Nov 10 17:15:24 celtic gdm-Xorg-:0[905]: (WW) RADEON(0): radeon_dri2_flip_ev...5 Hint: Some lines were ellipsized, use -l to show in full.
Might not work with some packages (gnome), which, if it bothers you, should be reported as a bug in those packages, or as a bug in sysviinit for not providing the interfaces those packages want.
In this case, you are suggesting they should have to fork all of Debian, because that's the only way to keep something other than systemd once Debian switches. Every package in the system has to be compatible with the init system.
Nonsense.
As of Jessie sysvinit will no longer be 'essential', a virtual 'init' package will be 'essential'. That virtual package can be provided by systemd, upstart or sysvinit.
Some small number of packages will depend on systemd|systemd-shim. Some smaller number of packages will depend on systemd.
If anyone wants a package that depends on systemd to not depend on systemd they can do the work to make it depend on either systemd|systemd-shim or just remove the dependancy. If they want they can try convincing the debian packager of the package, or, more likely upstream.
But what do you think people should do instead of escalate?
Work towards finding solutions to the problems they see?
people are talking seriously about forking Debian over this
No they are not, and no they don't need to. (And, even if they did, that's what Debian is for!)
If people want to use other init systems then they should just do it. If some package doesn't work with sysvinit then just fix the package, or don't use it.
systemd will be the default init system in Jessie. If it is the only init system in jessie that is not the fault of the systemd team.
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I love it how people talk like forks of Debian are a bad thing.
Debian loves forks.
So you're installing testing without reading the doc. OK.
You forgot to pin sysvinit.
Most debian developers force you to use the linux kernel.
While I agree with most of your post this bit is wrong. Many (most?) Debian packages do not force you to use the Linux kernel.
As the tentacles of systemd reach out and penetrate more areas of the system, more applications will inevitably require systemd which means that a Linux installation without systemd will only be able to run a small subset of Linux apps.
This is totaly arse-backwards.
systemd isn't "reaching out and penetrating" anything. People writing apps need features that systemd provides. If you want to use some other init package just provide those features. Maybe bundle them up in a package called systemd-shim.
Why do KDE and Gnome require Systemd as designed?
Because they need someone to handle the login stuff.
That used to be consolekit.
But consolekit seens to be dead. systemd provides logind which does what the DM's want. If someone would write an equivalent for sysvinit or upstart, or provide a way of running logind unser sysvinit or upstart then whole bunches of whining could stop.
SystemD is controversial enough that Debian should give the user the choice to decide whether they want systemd.
Well, lookee here:
# apt-cache show init
Package: init
Source: init-system-helpers
Version: 1.21
Essential: yes
Installed-Size: 29
Maintainer: pkg-systemd-maintainers
Architecture: amd64
Pre-Depends: systemd-sysv | sysvinit-core | upstart
Description-en: System-V-like init utilities - metapackage
This package is an essential metapackage which allows you to select from
three available init systems in Debian (systemd, sysvinit, upstart) while
ensuring that one of these is available on the system at all times.
Description-md5: e52554c23609041bfbca72fe27a132f9
Section: metapackages
Priority: required
Your wish is their command.
Or try it with some fava beans and a nice chianti.
Rubbish. FreeBSD is insecure crap. You should be using OpenBSD.
OpenBSD is run by that thug Theo, you should try NetBSD.
What a jerk - only a loser would use NetBSD, it's DragonFly or nothing.
Oblig. libertarian disclaimer: I don't care what other people do on their own property.
But the original description was:
But the main thing was this thing screamed when its speed got up. Not sure what it was, whether it was the bearings, the motor or maybe the brakes but it started to sound like a jet turbine spinning up when it was going fast
Your right to throw your arms around stops at the end of my nose. Your right to make loud noises stops at my ears.
Assuming the regulations are actually halfway reasonable. People were saying they were obviously set up to protect the existing taxi system which has already "bought into" the exorbitant fees.
As an engineer-type mindset, if there's an easy way to do something more efficiently and regulations are standing in the way, I blame the regulations, not the new solution for sufficiently stupid values of regulation (obviously safety regs are a different matter).
In most places there are ways to fix "unreasonable" regulations.
And, where those places are democracies, they don't necessarily involve breaking the law.
(Please don't bring up MLK, segregation, Rosa Parks or anything like that - this is about Taxi regulations).
He said it too sharply, but I don't think there's anything wrong with looking into the life and affiliations of a critic.
[...]
However, salacious details of her personal life, publication of home addresses and phone numbers, etc, is beyond the pale.
So, which is it?
I don't think there's anything wrong with looking into the life and affiliations of a critic.
or
However, salacious details of her personal life, publication of home addresses and phone numbers, etc, is beyond the pale.
Having your cake and eating it?
I am a white man you cretin.
Oh, go on then, who is "talking seriously about forking Debian", Where's their website? Where are their repos?
By default systemd logs to syslog on Debian, no google-fu is required.
So you can search the logs on things like the process group that wrote the message, for example:
# systemctl status gdm3 /run/systemd/generator/gdm3.service.d /etc/X11/default-display-manager 2>/dev/null)" = "/usr/sbin/gdm3" ] (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS) /system.slice/gdm.service /usr/sbin/gdm3 /usr/bin/Xorg :0 -novtswitch -background none -noreset -verb...
gdm.service - GNOME Display Manager
Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/gdm.service; enabled)
Drop-In:
50-gdm3-$x-display-manager.conf
Active: active (running) since Mon 2014-11-10 11:09:02 CET; 1 weeks 0 days ago
Process: 873 ExecStartPre=/usr/share/gdm/generate-config (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
Process: 865 ExecStartPre=/bin/sh -c [ "$(cat
Main PID: 879 (gdm3)
CGroup:
879
905
Nov 10 11:10:08 celtic gdm-Xorg-:0[905]: (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "800x600"x...)
Nov 10 11:10:08 celtic gdm-Xorg-:0[905]: (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "1152x864"...)
Nov 10 11:10:08 celtic gdm-Xorg-:0[905]: (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "1280x720"...)
Nov 10 11:10:08 celtic gdm-Xorg-:0[905]: (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "1280x1024...)
Nov 10 11:10:08 celtic gdm-Xorg-:0[905]: (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "1400x1050...)
Nov 10 11:10:08 celtic gdm-Xorg-:0[905]: (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "1366x768"...)
Nov 10 11:10:08 celtic gdm-Xorg-:0[905]: (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "1440x900"...)
Nov 10 11:10:08 celtic gdm-Xorg-:0[905]: (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "1600x1200...)
Nov 10 11:10:08 celtic gdm-Xorg-:0[905]: (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "1680x1050...)
Nov 10 17:15:24 celtic gdm-Xorg-:0[905]: (WW) RADEON(0): radeon_dri2_flip_ev...5
Hint: Some lines were ellipsized, use -l to show in full.
for example, since systemd decided to eat udev, that means that every package that used udev now needs systemd.
Not true.
What? No choice?
The choices are any package that implements the virtual package "init".
Currently that's systemd, sysvinit and maybe upstart.
Pre-Jessie the "choice" was sysvinit.
(Note: Some packages may depend on systemd directly -- I'd suggesit aiming any complaints at the authors (upstream, not Debian) of those packages).
apt-get install sysvinit systemd-shim
Might not work with some packages (gnome), which, if it bothers you, should be reported as a bug in those packages, or as a bug in sysviinit for not providing the interfaces those packages want.
In this case, you are suggesting they should have to fork all of Debian, because that's the only way to keep something other than systemd once Debian switches. Every package in the system has to be compatible with the init system.
Nonsense.
As of Jessie sysvinit will no longer be 'essential', a virtual 'init' package will be 'essential'. That virtual package can be provided by systemd, upstart or sysvinit.
Some small number of packages will depend on systemd|systemd-shim. Some smaller number of packages will depend on systemd.
If anyone wants a package that depends on systemd to not depend on systemd they can do the work to make it depend on either systemd|systemd-shim or just remove the dependancy. If they want they can try convincing the debian packager of the package, or, more likely upstream.
If they ever do report it as a bug.
But what do you think people should do instead of escalate?
Work towards finding solutions to the problems they see?
people are talking seriously about forking Debian over this
No they are not, and no they don't need to. (And, even if they did, that's what Debian is for!)
If people want to use other init systems then they should just do it. If some package doesn't work with sysvinit then just fix the package, or don't use it.
systemd will be the default init system in Jessie. If it is the only init system in jessie that is not the fault of the systemd team.
Nobody's accusing you of being wrong (except the space nutters).
You're just accused of being obsessive.
Give him a break, at least he reads good SF.
Bull was probably pretty pissed when the US military killed his project.
I wonder how he felt when Mossad killed him!
Couldn't we do the blind men and the elephant instead?