welcome to civilisation.;-) in germany we have red-light and speeding cams for years (>>20!!). the town communities are calculating their year income in advance by anticipating a certain amount from this budget item. cameras here are sophisticated and advanced, there's nearly no chance to appeal the ticket. running a red light suspends normally your driving license for a month btw. you get used to (means you know the location of) the fixed cameras. the evil ones e.g. are the portable $50000 cams in the back of an unsuspiciously looking wagon with tinted windows parking in a row of other cars at the curb side. that's all reality here since i can think of - which is at least 25 years. the penalties are not that high compared to the US or other european countries (well, don't want to speak about the severe penalties in the land of the free for DWI, that's even more dramatic). i don't understand the fuzz about feeling the privacy concerned. i lived for some time in the US and generally speaking, there's definitely more gerneral surveillance cams compared to any other country in the world.
- better food, beer, bread, coffee
- can drink alcohol on streets
- can buy any spirits at the gas stations 24x7 and not during special hours in liquor stores
- no death penalty
- no guns allowed
- no guns allowed
- no guns allowed
- in eastern parts of germany you better avoid idiots named skinheads. a shame for this country.
- more than two mayor political parties:-)
- more measures against the pollution of the environment: e.g. paper, glass are seperately collected, it's forbidden to keep the engine of your car unneccessarily running. costs also for electricity is higher.
- poor people are richer and vice versa
- traffic penalties are the cheapest in europe and cheaper compared to the us (which is imho not so good)
- but somehow mean speed checks (you won't realize the car at the curb taking a picture from you)
- society isn't prude (breasts in tv ads or even political magazines are normal)
- but being gay isn't tolerated as much as in the us
- prostitution is allowed
- school education is also better
- children aren't brainwashed in the first and later grades that germany is the best country in the world.
- better public transportation and shorter distances, so drinking and going home is not so much of a problem in the metropolitan areas
- but (public) transportation is more expensive, therefore faster
- you actually have very often bicycle lanes;-)
- easy banking: nobody pays with ancient checks, everybody uses wire transfers which don't cost 10-20 bucks, but 5-15 cents
- telephone is cheaper: calls from germany to us cost with the most expensive provider ~9c, with the cheapest one ~4c.
- cell phones are cheaper and the reception is better
- quality standard of apartment is higher, plus you have a three month notice period instead of a one year lease. ever tried to get a apartment in the us with a basement for storing your junk, or a bigger tub than for your babies? or a ceiling higher that 8 ft.? all this is standard in germany. downside: you have to paint the apartment after or before you leave.
- somehow ancient immigration rules or working permissions for foreigner compared to the us, but things got better.
- climate is more wet:-(
well, you cannot get everything in your life. and life's too short to check out every country in the world:-).
yeah, i would love to hear a comment. why another
computer acting as a firewall? it's like trying curing the symptoms and not eliminate the reason.
it's off topic, but i also don't like the installer from helix-gnome: wish it would be more transparent, don't like to run "unknown" programs
as root, which additionally opens ip connections.
do we want to end up with microsoft's security?
thx for the help for the local installations!
though i have a t1 connectivity i am refusing
to run a so called 'wizard' as root which autobadically fetches in a non-transparent way some things from where i don't know.
sounds a little bit like a windows installer.
i don't wnat to degrade to that level of security.
period.
man, you know what you are talking about? i set up at a large (but smaller then yours) site a couple of hundreds linux servers and desktops. there are so much issues involved:
- how much manpower do you like to spend for a) installation b) maintainance c) user support d) additional (application) software support e) backup f) registry ? - how do you plan to administer that number of systems in terms of security updates (you do them, don't u?), other updates and bugfixes? - who is going to have the root password: some users can mess up the system very easily (and blame you afterwards for their mess) - software distribution: central or local ? central is not easy (poor standard NFS implementation from Linux, there are other possibility though), local is even more difficult: how to you wnat to do updates ?
ok, this is what we (at DESY did) for now something like 500 machines (as i left it was about 250):
unless our big sister;-) CERN, we used SuSE, because they offered to make us a network based "non-attended installation", which became later part of the distribution (it isn't documented yet afaik). i never checked out RH's kickstart, but the thing from SuSE is much akin Solaris' jumpstart thing (booting is only from floppy because of the dumb PC-bios #@$%#!) after the initial install via bootp,nfs from SuSE i/we added our costumizations (security modifications, AFS, printer, x11 and mail setup, admintools) the whole installation took 30-60minutes. setting up profiles on the server and typing 2 times enter during the installation were ideally the only tasks to do then. we had AFS for software distribution, and users homedirectories which resolved very good issues like registry, backup, application sw distribution (the AFS cache initialization took ~one third of the install time)
updates (push methods) were done mostly with a home-grown tool, the machines had to be on the net 24X7 with a fixed ip address. other (better?) possibilties might be that you run pull updates from the client either with a cronjob or upon startup (or both).
admin's time hogs are the rapid change of PC hardware, also if you standardized on something which you certainly should do, any big changes like major kernel or libc releases, and distro releases.
as an optimistic estimate: to keep that whole thing only running you need 1 admin per 100 PCs. for building up that thing definetely more. if you have a larger number of small systems as you mentioned and don't wanna spend >= 25 FTE maybe it's better then to degrade the PCs to xterminals as others mentioned. which certainly might not satisfy some users (they wnat to have local data, too)
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welcome to civilisation. ;-) in germany we have red-light and speeding cams for years (>>20!!). the town communities are calculating their year income in advance by anticipating a certain amount from this budget item. cameras here are sophisticated and advanced, there's nearly no chance to appeal the ticket. running a red light suspends normally your driving license for a month btw. you get used to (means you know the location of) the fixed cameras. the evil ones e.g. are the portable $50000 cams in the back of an unsuspiciously looking wagon with tinted windows parking in a row of other cars at the curb side.
that's all reality here since i can think of - which is at least 25 years. the penalties are not that high compared to the US or other european countries (well, don't want to speak about the severe penalties in the land of the free for DWI, that's even more dramatic). i don't understand the fuzz about feeling the privacy concerned. i lived for some time in the US and generally speaking, there's definitely more gerneral surveillance cams compared to any other country in the world.
you forgot (us vs. germany):
:-)
;-)
:-(
:-).
- better food, beer, bread, coffee
- can drink alcohol on streets
- can buy any spirits at the gas stations 24x7 and not during special hours in liquor stores
- no death penalty
- no guns allowed
- no guns allowed
- no guns allowed
- in eastern parts of germany you better avoid idiots named skinheads. a shame for this country.
- more than two mayor political parties
- more measures against the pollution of the environment: e.g. paper, glass are seperately collected, it's forbidden to keep the engine of your car unneccessarily running. costs also for electricity is higher.
- poor people are richer and vice versa
- traffic penalties are the cheapest in europe and cheaper compared to the us (which is imho not so good)
- but somehow mean speed checks (you won't realize the car at the curb taking a picture from you)
- society isn't prude (breasts in tv ads or even political magazines are normal)
- but being gay isn't tolerated as much as in the us
- prostitution is allowed
- school education is also better
- children aren't brainwashed in the first and later grades that germany is the best country in the world.
- better public transportation and shorter distances, so drinking and going home is not so much of a problem in the metropolitan areas
- but (public) transportation is more expensive, therefore faster
- you actually have very often bicycle lanes
- easy banking: nobody pays with ancient checks, everybody uses wire transfers which don't cost 10-20 bucks, but 5-15 cents
- telephone is cheaper: calls from germany to us cost with the most expensive provider ~9c, with the cheapest one ~4c.
- cell phones are cheaper and the reception is better
- quality standard of apartment is higher, plus you have a three month notice period instead of a one year lease. ever tried to get a apartment in the us with a basement for storing your junk, or a bigger tub than for your babies? or a ceiling higher that 8 ft.? all this is standard in germany. downside: you have to paint the apartment after or before you leave.
- somehow ancient immigration rules or working permissions for foreigner compared to the us, but things got better.
- climate is more wet
well, you cannot get everything in your life. and life's too short to check out every country in the world
yeah, i would love to hear a comment. why another
computer acting as a firewall? it's like trying curing the symptoms and not eliminate the reason.
it's off topic, but i also don't like the installer from helix-gnome: wish it would be more transparent, don't like to run "unknown" programs
as root, which additionally opens ip connections.
do we want to end up with microsoft's security?
thx for the help for the local installations!
though i have a t1 connectivity i am refusing
to run a so called 'wizard' as root which autobadically fetches in a non-transparent way some things from where i don't know.
sounds a little bit like a windows installer.
i don't wnat to degrade to that level of security.
period.
man, you know what you are talking about? i set up at a large (but smaller then yours) site a couple of hundreds linux servers and desktops. there are so much issues involved:
;-) CERN, we used SuSE, because they offered to
- how much manpower do you like to spend for a) installation b) maintainance c) user support d) additional (application) software support e) backup f) registry ?
- how do you plan to administer that number of systems in terms of security updates (you do them, don't u?), other updates and bugfixes?
- who is going to have the root password: some users can mess up the system very easily (and blame you afterwards for their mess)
- software distribution: central or local ? central is not easy (poor standard NFS implementation from Linux, there are other
possibility though), local is even more difficult: how to you wnat to do updates ?
ok, this is what we (at DESY did) for now something like 500 machines (as i left it was about 250):
unless our big sister
make us a network based "non-attended installation", which became
later part of the distribution (it isn't documented yet afaik). i
never checked out RH's kickstart, but the thing from SuSE is much akin
Solaris' jumpstart thing (booting is only from floppy because of the
dumb PC-bios #@$%#!) after the initial install via bootp,nfs from SuSE
i/we added our costumizations (security modifications, AFS, printer,
x11 and mail setup, admintools) the whole installation took 30-60minutes.
setting up profiles on the server and typing 2 times enter during the installation were
ideally the only tasks to do then.
we had AFS for software distribution, and users homedirectories which
resolved very good issues like registry, backup, application sw
distribution (the AFS cache initialization took ~one third of the install time)
updates (push methods) were done mostly with a home-grown tool, the
machines had to be on the net 24X7 with a fixed ip address. other
(better?) possibilties might be that you run pull updates from the
client either with a cronjob or upon startup (or both).
admin's time hogs are the rapid change of PC hardware, also if you
standardized on something which you certainly should do, any big
changes like major kernel or libc releases, and distro releases.
as an optimistic estimate: to keep that whole thing only running you need 1
admin per 100 PCs. for building up that thing definetely more. if you
have a larger number of small systems as you mentioned and don't wanna
spend >= 25 FTE maybe it's better then to degrade the PCs to
xterminals as others mentioned. which certainly might not satisfy some
users (they wnat to have local data, too)