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Mozilla M17 Is Out
As the title says - Mozilla M17 is out. Release notes are available at that Web page as well. As usual - please test it and submit bug reports.. (please note: this is NOT the nightly build that was posted here previously). Update: I just got note that Netscape 6.0 PR2 is also out. Netscape bug reports should be reported here only!
The good thing though with the games being so old is that all the shagwit losers who played it online, cheated, swore, and generally acted like the immature fuckwits they are have all buggered off to Quake 3 and the like. Quality is quality. Whether Descent 3 is new or a year or 2 old, so what? It's the quality of the game. Besides, one NICE bonus for Linux gamers is the fact that games like Alpha Centauri are released with the cheap cash-in expansion pack included.
The Linux community SHOULD be proud. These things take time. 3 years ago there were shag all commercial games for Linux. As for people like you who whine and bitch about the state, why don't you sod off back to Windows then. Windows is little more than a 500 meg Gameboy anyway.
One final point, the good thing with games being ported a year or so after release is only the GOOD games are ported, we don't get any of that "Army Men" shit or anything like that. Fucking A!
yes it is, it was discussed on Mozillazine.org under the "Netscape 6 PR2" thread. Take a look for instructions on burning to a CD.
6_PR2
- ------------------------
-----------------------------------------------
Welcome to the Netscape Communications Corporation FTP server.
If you have any odd problems, try logging in with a minus sign (-)
as the first character of your password. This will turn off a feature
that may be confusing your ftp client program.
Please send any questions, comments, or problem reports about
this server to ftp@netscape.com.
*********** October 13, 1995 **********
Private ftp is now only on ftp1.netscape.com. Anonymous is supported on
ftp 2 through 8. If you are accessing a named account please use ftp1.
Guest login ok, access restrictions apply.
1995? Time to update, fellas...
Actually, Blackdown has the OJI / Java plugin running now with JDK 1.3. There are still bugs on Mozilla's end which didn't get fixed in time for the M17 but hopefully will get it fixed soon.
Check out bugzilla bugs 46087 and 46089 for info on some of the holdups.
Kevin
Yeh, I used Konqueror a lot over the past several months - compiled from source. However, I removed the Kde2 stuff completely and probably won't give it another try until the final 2.0 release. Here's why.
Konqueror is fairly stable now and is fairly fast except when encountering large pages. By large I mean any plain old html page over a few thousand bytes in size, which ain't very big. Then it grinds to a halt. Scrolling becomes next to impossible, and the various "parts" never get completely fleshed out because they time out before the entire page can be loaded into memory and then rendered.
This seems to be true of any Kde 2 application with a large number of "parts" such as even medium sized KWord docs. Slows to a crawl and then chokes.
Konqueror, in the latest beta, crashes occasionally but not too often, so you may want to give it a try. However, I've found that Netscape 4.x is AT LEAST 10 times as fast as Konqueror, and so is Galeon. But Galeon curently lacks some common gui features. I'm hoping they add them soon - page scrolling with the keyboard, etc. So it's back to Netscape 4.x for now.
Be aware also that the infrastructure of Kde 2 keeps changing from week to week or even day to day despite promises that this wouldn't happen. The version of Qt on which it is based also keeps changing - just changed again yesterday. That was the final straw for me.
I think that the Kde team will improve the performance of Konqueror a little as well as the performance of the entire Kde 2 platform, but this can only be done in an ugly, hackish sort of way without a basic redesign. They need at least a 10 times performance increase, and may be able to sqeeze out twice the current performance with optimizations. But not 10 times without a redesign. (This is with no debugging by the way). So even with a 700 mgz Athalon and 256 megs ram it's molassas city.
It's too late for a redesign because they have committed to a design based entirely on "parts" and the performance is not acceptable because there are simply too many "objects" in memory at any one time, and stability also becomes iffy in such circumstances. Yes, I know they tried to improve performance by abandoning CORBA and using dcop, but they didn't go far enough. Kde 1.12 is several orders of magnitude better than Kde 2, regardless of the cheery reviews (which are quite dishonest). If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Build on what works. Does anybody really want to embed a spreadsheet in his file manager? I sure don't. I think Kde actually believes the propaganda Microsoft uses to hype it's component model but most Windows users know better. It's the old 90/10 rule again. Bloated with features and io-bound to the max to the point that even the simplest operation requires the loading and unloading of myriads of "parts" and vicious thrashing of your hard drive. These aren't bugs, they are features. Yeah.
The only improvement I can see is the graphics engine - rendering of pixels and gradients, etc., is better, and of course the new Qt 2.x is better than Qt 1.x. Otherwise, it's like they made a concious decision to ruin a good thing in order to mimic Microsoft's COM with Kparts. Well, that don't work with Linux. Kde 2 makes both Java and Mozilla look lean and mean.
Kde has fixed it all right, and now I happily use Gnome, until Gnome ruins it with bonobo in another stupid effort to mimic Microsoft, and then I guess I'll just eat my words and use Winders. Since they both seem dead set on mimicing Winders may as well use the real thing instead of a sorry imitation that doesn't work. Way to go Kde. Don't make the same mistake, Gnome.
The linux version of M17 unpacks with the user and group id's set to 8482 and 10. Same as in M16. In a Red Hat system, gid 10 is the wheel group, which has root as its only member (unless you change it).
Most files in the release unpack with permissions set to "rwxrwxr-x" (in M16 the mask was "rwxr-xr-x"). Either way, both builds run fine for normal users.
I did a 'chown -R root:root package/' and a 'chmod -R g-w package/' and it runs fine.
They seem a lot better to me, and mozillazine agrees (There are quick links to M18 builds there too). Also, for me the Windows build is much much better for me than the Linux one. Most notably for rendering times.. on average Linux is 1.5-10 times slower at rendering pages for whatever reason. This is with XFree86 3.3.x since I haven't seen any distro that's confident enough to release XF4 to the masses.
Yes, ie5 is fast... of course, while the browser starts up fast, the OS is slow... hmm... wonder how that works :)
Same with realplayer (and a few other programs I've installed) under windows. I really don't like loosing the extra time and memory while it loads itself into the taskbar so it can "start" quickly.
</sarcasm>
It ould be great if /. could wait for mirrors to sync before sending the hordes to crush sites for major announcements like this. I know restraint and responsibility might be asking a bit much, but all the same...
Either that, or mirror it yourselves.
--
My name is Sue,
How do you do?
Now you gonna die!
Works fine here (M17, glibc 2.1.3). Hell, even rendering of HTML 4 quoting markup works.
--
My name is Sue,
How do you do?
Now you gonna die!
Everyone uses web based email? Oh right, apart from the 600 people at my last workplace, the 50 at my current workplace, everyone I know who's likely to download Mozilla rather than go with whatever Windows ships with...
I think you need to broaden your experience a little.
--
My name is Sue,
How do you do?
Now you gonna die!
Those releases are for shaking-out the installer-specific bugs -- something that nightlies and milestones do not accomplish. I'm sorry that you find them tiresome, but they're really not avoidable.
The "cue the foo posts in 3, 2, 1..." posts will commence with no subsequent foo posts in 3, 2, 1...
Does the installer work through a proxy? If so how do you configure it?
The difference between Canada and the USA is that in Canada healthcare is a right and gun ownership is a privilege.
Advanced? I don't see no advanced button (installing on Linux).
The difference between Canada and the USA is that in Canada healthcare is a right and gun ownership is a privilege.
I woudln'd disagree about IE5. But what has to be said about the basic design for Mozilla is that it is designed to be a 'pervasive' web browser. It's small enough to get into every place that matters (or at least will be -- when it gets released proper), and has nearly all of the basic features required. The non-windows market is growing, and only time will tell if Mozilla is positioned correctly to take advantage of it.
John
John_Chalisque
I installed M17 and brought up Slashdot, opened an article, (then realized I wasn't logged in), I then entered my name and pass in the box in the upper right of the screen. Well, as I typed each character, it kept bumping the box to the left and the story area's (but not the comments) width kept shrinking with each keystroke. Is this a problem with Mozilla or Slashdot? This is on Win95b, btw.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Does anybody else see the orange dots in the slashdot story headers with mozilla? What is causing this? It doesn't do it in IE.
"What are the three words guaranteed to humiliate men everywhere?
In Republican America phones tap you.
This stupidity is easily solved by using object detection, rather than browser detection. Theres lots of resources on the web documenting it.
Matt. Want XML + Apache + Stylesheets? Get AxKit.
It looks like Sun is suffering like every other company that I've worked for: huge shortage of software engineers. Unless it's corporate BS cutting their funding for the project. Damn! It sounds like a horrible place to work right now. Good luck though.
I work in a company that is quite distributed. In fact, I've moved around quite a lot myself. So I keep in touch with friend's and co-workers via Yahoo! Messengers. Unfortunately under Linux one has to use the Java client for Messenger. Anybody else tried using it? It seems like it crashes every 20 seconds! It's next to useless. WINE support for Messenger is non-existent. Netscape 4.x is never going to be fixed so that it is stable. What are the alternatives? We were hoping that Mozilla would fill the gap. Unfortunately it seems that Java support is only available for Win32. Anybody have any idea when it'll be available elsewhere, or even what's going on in that department?
I've been playing with the Mac version of Mozilla for about an hour so far, and it's really disappointing.
The best I can say about it is that this is the FIRST milestone of Mozilla on the Mac that doesn't trash my maching in interesting ways. All versions of Mozilla I've tried before this have done strange and wonderful things like rendering web pages outside the app window (including in the menu bar), hosing networking until a reboot, or causing the operating system to stop noticing my mouse clicks.
But that's damning with faint praise, so let me be a little more direct with my condemnations. Mozilla M17 goes to enormous lengths to reinvent the wheel, and ends up doing a half-baked job of it. Rather than using Mac OS Toolbox calls to draw lists (as in the 'Manage Bookmarks' window), it draws its own lists which work almost, but not quite as quickly or as flexibly as, lists in the native GUI (Mozilla's columns can't be resized or rearranged). Rather than using the standard GUI's scrollbars in the main browser window, it draws its own scrollbars, which don't work with a wheel mouse yet. Rather than relying on the operating system to render menus for it, it draws its own menu when I right-click in a window or click on a pulldown, and sometimes little fragments of this menu don't get drawn in quite the right places. Curiously, however, it implements clippings just fine (select a range of text from a web page then drag that text to the desktop). Overall, Mozilla appears to go to great lengths to look like it's trying hard not to be a standard Mac application; its interface elements just look (and sometimes work) different for no obvious good reason.
I admire the Mozilla developers for the immense amout of work they've put into this project, but I wonder why they decided to reimplement many GUI elements which the operating system could have easily handled for them if they'd abstracted their GUI calls a bit more. As a result, over the history of the Mozilla project, it seems like the developers have had a lot more trouble making Mozilla a well-behaved Mac application than making it a good web browser.
That approach makes some sense... but it gets back to the age-old debate of just how cross-platform to make a cross-platform application. In this case, Mozilla has gone for the lowest-common-denominator approach, resulting in the fact that it doesn't take advantage of any particular operating system's features and that it doesn't look/feel like any other application on that OS. I can see why it's beneficial if you want web pages to look completely identical on every operating system, but it comes at a huge cost in having to duplicate basic OS-builtin GUI features, having to make sure they work reliably, and having to add support to Mozilla for any GUI-relevant feature that's added to any OS it supports.
In hindsight, I think a much better use of the Mozilla development team's time would have been to have Mozilla rely on each operating system's GUI calls, but meanwhile to spin off the effort to come up with a consistent cross-platform GUI into another project altogether, so that it could be more easily shared across other applications as well.
The reason that Moz seems to gulp such enormous amounts of memory is the stupidity of some Linux tools. Moz uses threads. If an application uses 4MB in total and has 40 threads, top will report a mem usage of 160MB.
War is one of the most horrible things a human can be exposed to. And one of the worlds largest industries.
I attempted to install Netscape PR2, but after 3 secs on the download bar, it closes and dosen't let me read the error message. Even after changing the servers in config.ini it still does it. Well, so much for PR2.
I'm currently downloading the latest nightly Mozilla build, and I'll try it like I do every once in a while. Mozilla is getting there, but I just can't stand the oversized browser buttons. I guess I like when buttons are slick looking and small.
I just never thought I would be passing up the latest Netscape release, whatever version, for Mozilla. I always saw Mozilla as a buggy, unstable, unlikeable browser, but the more and more I try it I'm starting to grab hold. I don't know whats going on over at Netscape, but it certainly isn't working anymore.
Heck, does anyone remember going to the store and finding nice, packaged boxed of Netscape on the shelves? Even though they cost money, it was nice seeing Netscape proudly displayed. Now, if it's not put out by Microsoft, you won't see it there. The only thing I could find locally was Netscape Communicator Browser "tools". What "tools" do people need for a browser?
Well, it's sad to see this but Netscape has dug it's own grave with me. Maybe if they get their head on straight and release something installable and usuable again, I'll try, but for now, I'm headed for the red monster.
--
Scott Miga
suprax@linux.com
More to the point, there shouldn't be an install at all. I want a full download. This sucks. Maybe Americans just forget that Internet access costs us money in Europe. Phone calls aren't free. Normally, I'd download stuff like this using the leased line at work, burn it to a CD and take it home. With poxy installer programs like this, that's no longer an option :-(
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
When will someone make a Mozilla-based browser that works with XView? There are still some people using olvwm and this much-underrated toolkit..
I'm using it right now to type this response. It's undeniably fast on this machine- my only complaint so far is that it's still a little bloated for my liking (I hope they worry about stability and footprint seriously for M18!) Jury's still out, but I think I just found a new browser...
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Dramatic jump in quality. Only thing I'm disappointed in is that it took this long to get here (Which I understand- doesn't mean I have to like it...). M17 rocks- not sucks them. My only hope is to see M18 speed it up even further and strip some of the excess fat (There's this cute little console print saying "count=x" where 'x' is the number of keys pressed while in a form's field. I can understand some of that, but there's quite a lot of that sort of thing in M17 from what I can see- it'd be nice to see some of it go bye-bye since it's adding to the code that gets executed and at least slows things down some...)
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
I have a little problem with the updates to the current popular desktop environments for Linux (That's both KDE and GNOME, thank you!) in that there's entirely too many piece-parts to the distribution and that it's almost akin to downloading a Linux distribution by it's packages.
As for porting it to GTK+, good luck. Konqeror is tied intimately to the KDE2 framework.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Sorry, you are almost completely wrong.
:)
Linux (and gcc) class PPro, PII, and PIII as i686, since they all use essentially the same core.
A normally configured gcc for x86 will, unless you tell it otherwise, produce binaries that run on any x86 CPU. It can optimize for an i686 without using and i686-only (or i586-and-above, etc.) instructions.
I'm pretty sure that there are some instructions that a PII supports that a K6-2 doesn't. The K6 was made after the PPro came out, and it definitely doesn't support everything the PII supports.
I would be surprised if they distributed mozilla binaries that wouldn't run on a 386. (at least in theory
I installed NSPR1 on a k5 once... It worked.
#define X(x,y) x##y
#define X(x,y) x##y
Peter Cordes ; e-mail: X(peter@cordes ,
Not to flame EMACS (I used to be a big user before vim), or knock on RMS.. but I couldn't resist. :-)
--
Care about electronic freedom? Consider donating to the EFF!
If you've installed Mozilla (or Netscape 6) before (or you think someone else has on your machine) try the following: delete the C:\windows\mozregistry.dat file. This may solve the problems you are having.
Otherwise start with mozilla.exe -console and see if there's any useful info in the console. Try reading the release notes and if you can't solve the problem report a bug to mozilla.org/
It's all well and good to claim that HTML is not primarily intended to describe layout, but the fact is that a lot of layout-related tags are in there, because in the real world it was necessary.
Nowdays CSS is preferred, but until the layout-related tags are actually removed from the HTML standard, a standard-compliant browser should render them properly.
Note I'm just going from memory here so this could all be slightly off, but I do remember something about this.
Bleh!
Oh man! Thanks for the link, it's awesome, I'm posting from it now, and it's absolutely SLICK. Great job!
Actually, you can interchange KDE and GNOME applications if you have both the QT and GTK libraries installed. For example, I can run Dia or Gimp whilst using KDE. Hell, I have run KDE applications using FVWM.
Your comment is a common misconception about the power of the X windows environment. If you want to know why, read this page.
--
"You're gonna need a bigger boat." - Chief Brody
Valid point.
--
"You're gonna need a bigger boat." - Chief Brody
First of all, I am very impressed with the new release, nice job Mozilla.
One problem I have is with the downloader. I mean, it is quite unstable (more so than the rest of the browser), plus it doesn't support resuming downloads.
I find myself just copying link location, then using wget, which is the best download program I've ever seen.
I actually tried to use the moz dl'er to get Galeon, i figured its only 300K, it'll make it. But no, it stopped with 1K left and said unknown error and the file was corrupt.
I think it would be cool if there were an option to just use wget (or some other command line downloader) for all mozilla downloads, which is built in. Or else, make the downloader into a wget front-end.
-- Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people. Guns just make bullets go really, really fast.
M17 is a LOT faster. I agree with previous posters that say it is close to IE. However, I still barfs on complex Javascript and it seem to be mangling cookies.
<Opinion>
I really had high hopes for Mozilla when it started that just grew bigger when Gecko was released. Over the last year however I have watched the project become something of a Frankenstiens monster. Two of my biggest problems with Mozilla is the fact that they created a brand new widget set and the fugly interface and sidebar. Oh, and I have to add all that extra stuff that comes along like and email client and HTML editor. Personally I think that they should have just focused on creating a fast functional browser, made it very modular and OO to add in porting to other platforms and released it. THe extra should have been added at a much later date. Oh well, that's just my $0.002.
</Opinion>
"Attention Citizens, 2+2 now equals 3.947547175. Please recalibrate your equipment now" --The Computer
Sorry, you are almost completely wrong.
:)
:)
Actually, I was completely right. ^_^
Linux (and gcc) class PPro, PII, and PIII as i686, since they all use essentially the same core.
PII and PIII are i686-class machines, but for determining compatability you consider the PPro, the first processor in that line. As in, using i686 in your kernel config makes a kernel that runs on a PPro.
I'm pretty sure that there are some instructions that a PII supports that a K6-2 doesn't.
Yeah, but those aren't "i686" instructions. Thus the i686 builds will run on anything i686-compatible. Which includes the K6-2.
I would be surprised if they distributed mozilla binaries that wouldn't run on a 386. (at least in theory
I don't think the current ones will. At least, they were compiled for 686. maybe you'll get lucky and not hit the i686-specific parts.
The enemies of Democracy are
The designation "i686" refers to the Pentium Pro, which was dubbed the "P6" prior to its release (and it should have been called that, since it is a completely difference core than the Pentium... but I digress), not the PII. Anyway, any processor made after the PPro will run the mozilla binaries, and that includes your K6-2. And I think saving the masochist who wants to run mozilla on a 486 from himself is a noble goal unto itself. ;)
Posted using Mozilla M-17 on a K6-2 300, so there. :P
The enemies of Democracy are
I sure hope they don't automatically include the JRE! It's a better assumption that someone who wants java support already has a copy of the JRE installed, and I sure don't want to have to download it with every product that could possibly use it.
By the way, running M17 for the past couple of hours and I've gotta say "WOW!" Great to see. Can't wait give it a whirl on Linux.
If you actually kept up with Mozilla, you'd know that memory footprint is something they are working on.
---
Has anyone got the aphrodite skin (0.4) working with M17 yet? If I specify -chrome chrome://aphrodite/content in the command line mozilla crashes on startup. I can't see the skin in Edit->Preferences->Themes even after it is installed.
All I want to see is this coem out at the end of the year. So by the following year Mozilla will regain at least 40% of the market share. That is if AOL pushes it
do you trust the task manager?
-- Thrakkerzog
Er, yes, they haven't made Irix builds recently, but they don't treat Linux as the only Unix. M16 supports Solaris, FreeBSD, HPUX, True64 and OpenVMS. That looks like five "other Unix" ports.
And a delay in ports of M17 arguably can be justified by the fact that the guy who maintained many of the Unix ports just died.
Steven E. Ehrbar
(slashdot won't take nt)
Someday we'll all be negroes
"And a mail client is a useless addition too -- everyone just uses web-based e-mail like HoTMaiL or Yahoo! Mail"
What's your definition of "everyone"? That'd be you, right, because you can't figure out Outlook Express?
STFU until you get a clue, moron.
--
Peter
When both browsers are available on CD, then fair enough, your point stands.
However, I (and quite a lot of the rest of Europe) am on a 56K dialup link to the internet at home. And under this circumstance the difference between 6 and 25 megabytes becomes quite crystal clear.
--
Peter
When will the programmers realise that all we want is a simple browser that supports industry standards such as CSS, XHTML, DHTML, JavaScript, VBScript and XML? We don't need an integrated browser/mail reader/newsreader/coffee maker.
In that case, you want Galeon, a subset (so to speak) of Mozilla.
Also, the programmers don't have to realise anything. They do what they want, when they want, and for their own reasons. If you don't like that, get the source and do it yourself. The coders aren't working for you, you know.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
as of now, mozilla is my main browser. it finally got to the point where it works better than NS4.7x in day to day use. the latest NS 4.74 for linux was even more unstable than the previous ones: it crashes whenever you open a few windows (with lots of middle clicking) and then close a few with ^W. so that's it, exit netscape, enter mozilla. the UI feels slower, but the rendering is so much faster that it more than makes up for it. with the classic skin, bigger fonts and JS off, it's pretty damn usable.
Since when did Linux basically become the only 'nix out there? After clicking on the Unix link for the Netscape PR2 download, the only link present was linux22. Uh, excuse me, but what about other 'nixes? I use SGIs, which means I run IRIX. Netscape is complete and utter crap for IRIX, and I was hoping that this release might set things right (yeah, right). But what was a thinking? I don't run Linux, therefore I don't run Unix. It is understandable that Netscape did not compile forev every type and version out there, but please, only Linux? What about the Sun BSD, HP, AIX users? Sigh, Linux will be the Windows of the 21st century.
As far as Mozilla goes, the last compile for IRIX was done is January. Says alot about cross-platform code doesn't it?
--weenie NT4 user: bite me!
--weenie NT4 user: bite me!
"Computers are nothing but a perfect illusion of order" -- Iggy Pop
After reading the comments about the horrid install of Netscape 6.0 PR2, it appears that Internet Explorer will become the web browser of choice on both Windows and Macintosh platforms not because of Microsoft's market share, but because of Netscape's incompetence since the AOL takeover. :-(
You can gripe about IE all want, but it loads very fast on Windows and the Mac and also renders pages quite quickly, too. And Microsoft designed IE so it can be quickly updated to add new features, fix bugs, etc.
With all the complaints about the NS 6 install and startup times, if Netscape doesn't address these issues soon they will be finished, which is too bad because the "basic" Mozilla code itself is actually quite good.
Raymond in Mountain View, CA
(I just posted this to Mozillazine. Note that most of this has to do with the Netscape repackaging of Mozilla, not with the Mozilla browser/platform itself)
.sit in less
Well I guess I'm the first one to review this for the Mac.
HOLY CRAP. We're in trouble.
All I can do is hope to holy hell that Netscape buries this release and no one in the general public ever downloads/installs PR2, ever.
Oh, and by the way, let me say in advance to whoever will argue the usual "this is pre-beta
software, blah blah blah blah" let me remind you that THIS IS THE FIRST EXPOSURE MANY
PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HAVE WITH NETSCAPE 6. Their opinions will be formed largely
on their earliest experiences. The fact that netscape has released this is.. oh jesus....sweet jesus help
us.
I'm sorry, I'm still just totally stunned.
Let's start off with the download/install. I loaded the installer (very small, admittedly, though it
was located in a directory labeled for Mac OS 8.5. I use Mac OS 9, but after downloading the
readme confirmed it worked on 8.5 OR ABOVE) and took a look inside the folder. There's a
README file with astonishingly dry, boring installation instructions, and there's a License
Agreement file. No personality whatsoever. Nothing discussing this as an open source project,
nothing about what this release is for, no notes about reporting bugs, and no reminder that what
you're about to see is a work in progress and you can expect that it's going to be fixed and check
out a nightly of mozilla and if you want to help build it, here's what you do and....on and on.
What a totally missed opportunity to introduce the project.
Anyway, so I ran the very unappealing installer which asked me which components I wanted to
load (I have no need for German, wanted to try a mail/news free install, etc.)
1. It then installed everything, totally ignoring the components I selected.
2. It took about 50x
longer to download than the Mozilla nightlys. Why can I get the whole of Mozilla's
than a minute on my DSL, unstuff and just run, but to get Netscape I had to go through a whole
rigamarole of downloading each peice, then processing them all which took over 10 minutes?!
(don't tell me the bigger size is the reason either. The "extras" might account for a little more
time, but not this astounding install-a-thon)
3. It then ran a profile manager thing and then, at my
foolish request, converted my Netscape 4.x profile to Netscape 6. This took, on my Powerbook
G3 about 5 drive-churning minutes.
4. Finally it finished. It then asked me to enter all kinds of
bizarro Netcenter-related stuff. I THINK I have a netcenter account (that's my.netscape.com,
right?) so I entered some info, which it took without asking for a password or anything. All I
have to ask is-- what the hell was it going on about? I just wanted to try the browser, not apply
for an East German exit visa.
5. FINALLY after more whirring churning, gurgling and spinning, I finally got something that looked like a browser, albeit wearing the CRAPPY "modern" skin.
6. Displayed on the screen was a totally ugly page with some kind of layered animation that was
moving so slowly I could see the redraws. The computer felt like it had ground to a halt.
I should mention that the above process took about 15 minutes. A typical Mozilla install for me
is, oh, maybe 3 minutes from download to running it. During the install, there was no caveat
about (1) how the zillions of files were temporary and that (2) I can expect vast improvements in
future versions and that (3) gosh, you can help with this fun internet experiment, and here's how.
In short, the installation experience just plain sucked.
I should also mention that PR2 starting up for the first time on my Mac feels about 1/3 the speed
of Mozilla's recent builds. The AIM client in the sidebar made me laugh out loud it was so slow
and awkward. After getting no response from double-clicking a buddy's name a few times to
send an AIM too, I suddenly locked up as about 9 IM windows slowly tiled themselves on the
screen. I stopped laughing and my jaw just hit the floor.
I must also add that during the install, the fake non-native widgets looked totally half-baked. I was
having flashbacks to Mac's infamous Word 6 port. I swear to god Java's Swing looks about 5x
classier than this awkward mess. Netscape, can you at least use "Classic" for the installer part so I
can see some normal looking buttons?
When i finally switched to the classic theme (the preferences wouldn't open at first, and then after
I selected it, I couldn't hit the OK button, I had to Cancel) things looked MUCH better, but it's
still abominably slow.
WHY OH WHY doesn't this default to classic?
Anyway, I honestly don't know what Netscape is thinking. I'm have a feeling this will be one of
the kinder reviews by a Mac user in the next few days. (I *LOVE* the Mozilla project you
guys...)
To anyone who may have come here who is not really familiar with Mozilla, please do NOT
judge Mozilla on the Netscape PR2 release. It doesn't have to be like this...
Wait for PR3, or go grab one of the M18 nightly builds: (LINK) -- it's a lot better.
W
PS - I hope that they've got better bug report handling than they did for PR1 cuz I have a feeling
they'll be overwhelmed.
PPS - Sorry for anyone I've offended. I'm still a believer in this project, and if I made any errors
I'm sure they'll be corrected quickly.
PPPS - Stupid new menu items of the day: "Print Plus" (?!!!!)
-------------------
-------------------
This is my SIG. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
I installed it, but it can't be launched on my Windows machine.
Wouldn't it be easier to modify the config.ini file that comes with the Netscape installler to point to a local FTP/HTTP server (or even a directory?) You can also get at the "hidden" parts that are installed by default.
(By the way, the person who posted that the installer is a Trojan was off-base; the sweetlou.mcom.com URL he spotted is apparently a backup URL for the installer. You can comment it out of config.ini or change it to another URL.)
I haven't had any luck hacking it to recognize a directory on a local machine; I may try setting up an FTP server or HTTP server and see if I can get the installer to recognize it. But this trick should work for a LAN install...
Jay(=
I guess I should be using it... There are SOOO many posts that say that Mozilla/NS6 suck and IE5 is a GOD... I mean, if it's THAT good, why wouldn't I want it? Where can I get a copy?
Oh, by the way, I'm running RedHat 6.2
It's at the same FTP site that has my MacOS version of Galeon...
Jay (=
This isn't flamebait, it's an honest observation.
With hard drive prices well under a penny a meg, who really cares about size? So IE takes up 25+ megs, and Mozilla takes up 6.
If having access to the useability of IE5 costs me a quarter's worth of HD space to have, then so be it.
From a user standpoint, I want something that is useable and works. If i have to spend a quarter for the space to get it, then I'm all for it.
Just my two cents.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
From Win2K Taskmanager:
Netscape 4.73 -
11,370K Mem Usage
Mozilla M18 nightly build 8/7/2000 -
29,870K Mem Usage
I would list internet explorer but it's so integrated into W2K that it's hard to get an accurate number.
The M18 nightly build is the most stable mozilla I've used yet, but there are still some serious issues. The bloat is one of them. The fact that the preference windows are still screwed up is another. They either display incorrectly or, after clicking on a few of them, the "OK" button stops working and you can only cancel and start all over.
Best things about M18? It's free software and it has a "Don't load images from external sites" feature which is great for stomping web bugs and banner ads.
As the late Dr. McCoy would say to Captain Kirk.
Slash-rot is too infatuated with a dead product.
I think you're confused : )
Mozilla is too heavily threaded to work properly with anything less than glibc 2.1. The way I understand it is that the dynamic loader in older versions of libc wasn't thread safe. There are _no_ builds for glibc 2.0 or libc5 on linux.
Actually, I think the reverse is true. The Internet used to have a whole lot of different kinds of interaction, but thanks to Netscape, ie, and AOL, most people now see it as all pointing, all clicking, all the time.
That said, I also would have voted for just releasing the browser first, but since I haven't contributed any code to Mozilla I'm not really entitled to bitch. I wish more people felt the same way :)
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
Images are not designed for the purpose you are using them. You are reporting a BUG that you WANT, one that was fixed in 4.5. It's likely that giving you what you want will break other rendering systems and just mess everything up.
HTML is for content, not layout.
And the beast shall be made legion. Its numbers shall be increased a thousand thousand fold. The din of a million keyboards like unto a great storm shall cover the earth, and the followers of Mammon shall tremble.
...from The Book of Mozilla, 3:31
(Red Letter Edition)
Click here if you are using Mozilla (M17) or Netscape PR2.
-Julius X
-Julius X
remove "-whatkindofspamdoyoutakemefor-" from email to send
See my comment on Hack for a local install below (still moderated too low for threshholds...)
- ftp ftpi.netscape.com
- cd
/pub/netscape6/long obvious path/
- grab all the files (recursivly) including the xli and lps directories
- set up a FTP server locally to mirror above directory structure
- edit hosts file on machines to install, point ftp.netscape.com to be host of your FTP server
- run their install, and it goes local
- take ftp.netscape.com out of hosts file
Of course, could do DNS tricks to do the same...You might want to check out the release notes.
"The M17 development cycle included the last of the major feature work
that is planned for Mozilla 1.0 From this point forward the development
focus will be performance, stability and footprint."
Strangely enough, I've gotten it to run on GNOME desktops with no problems at all. Even different versions of GNOME and distributions. What kind of problems are you having? Maybe I could help you troubleshoot it?
I don't know how your post got modded up to "Insightful" when you obviously don't do things like read release notes or keep up with what Mozilla is doing.
Here, yet again, is a quote from the M17 release notes for those that are clueless:
"The M17 development cycle included the last of the major feature work
that is planned for Mozilla 1.0 From this point forward the development
focus will be performance, stability and footprint."
If you READ the release notes, you'll notice that it says:
"The M17 development cycle included the last of the major feature work
that is planned for Mozilla 1.0 From this point forward the development
focus will be performance, stability and footprint."
So, the point is that performance, stability, and footprint are going to be the focus for the next milestones. Anything confusing about that?
Why would I want to store vast quantities of software installation programs that I will likely never use again, when I can just as easily download the latest version in a few minutes
Because often the new version sucks rocks, and you want to go back to the old version. But -- oh, wait -- you deleted the old version. Too bad. Now you're stuck with Netscape 4.x forever!
(Having seen what Netscape did, I now keep copies of anything that's good enough that I might ever need to go back to it. No more you-can't-go-back for me. Never again.)
The main reason for not using native GUI calls was compatibility. Go look at a webpage *form* in linux, mac and winblows and you'll see that the pages look quite a bit different because every platform uses its own GUI widgets. The idea was (and is) to make a custom, extensible GUI so that every web page would look *exactly* the same on every platform, they're doing a good job at it too...
Geoff
I really like IE5. It's easy to develop for,
Huh? Why would you develop for a specific browser? Just follow the standards, and your stuff should work with all browsers.
Well, obviously, most browsers have some standards deficiencies, but usually they're in areas that you don't really need to be using anyway.
I think the real problem is that web page creators think they're "developers" instead of "authors." The web is about information, not programming. If you're putting more effort into JavaScript than into your content, your site will suck. If someone goes to your web site with Lynx, will they still find it just as useful, even if it is less cool looking?
Then you want Konqueror. It loads up in the blink of an eye (IE-like speeds), it's fast, and looks nice.
Where is the M17 source? Its not on the download page.
:(
I can't compile a FreeBSD binary
You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.
"Standards would be a nice idea"
;).
We have standards... what we need are people willing to follow them
When I design a webpage, I create the basic layout, add the content, and then add kewl little glyphs that give it that oooh and ahhh appeal. I personally think its important to follow the standards until the point where the browsers make their own standards (as long as they don't mess it up for another browser, its fair game to me).
Price, Quality, Time. Pick none. What, you thought you had a choice?
Haven't you learned yet that Microsoft can do whatever it wants to, even breaking the fundamental laws of computer science?
I remember from the C# reference that 'swap' routine that if it produced the desired output would be a miracle. But I can't talk about that because I went thru their click wrap license which told me to be quit.
"Sorry if I sound a bit over the top here... I just think the MS paranoia goes a little far sometimes."
Its never enough for some people.
=00s Government = Big Brother? (possible?) heh.
die IE die die die.
Price, Quality, Time. Pick none. What, you thought you had a choice?
Some ppl STILL don't seem to "get it". If you look at the following link...
...you will realize that M17 is the feature complete release. No attempt has been made to make it any more stable than the ability to complete a build without warnings. I am sure that PR2 is even less stable, as Netscape has added their own little "hacks". Anyone who has followed the project knows that the aim of everything after this date is stability, performance, and "polish".
Mozilla Milestones
I have seen people saying stuff like "Don't give me any of the Pre-Release garbage"...but this is exactly what this is about. I suggest trying some of the nightly builds from Tuesday evenings. These seem to be the most stable builds, because again, if you have been following Mozilla, you know that Tuesday is BugDay.
If you have never participated in a BugDay, I suggest that you do. But, before you do, download a M18 nightly...it seems to already be faster and more stable.
All I'm saying is, don't complain about Mozilla/Netscape not producting something and then complain when they do. It's not good form.
I am sure that since this does not seem to be a popular opinion, I will probably get modded down as a troll or flamebait or something like that, but I feal that I should still offer my feedback, as the guys working on the Mozilla project seem to be "unsung heros" right now. A good majority of the fixes are comming from Netscape Developers now. This is because they have begun work on Netscape 6 again (this was happening at the end of M17).
Yep, it is, because Mozilla is trying to be all things to all people, just like the IE/Outlook Express combo has done. However, you notice the stunning availability of the IE/OE combo on any platform other than 'dows. Mozilla is attempting to bridge the gap between Windows and Linux/*nix usage so that the "average" user can understand it.
And a mail client is a useless addition too -- everyone just uses web-based e-mail like HoTMaiL or Yahoo! Mail these days.
I'm not entirely sure what rock you've been living under, but, at least for me, I still use my "old fashioned" e-mail client (helloooo IMAP4!), as well as my "old fashioned" Usenet reader. Most of my non-technical friends prefer a regular e-mail client, as their web browser combined with a modem keep giving them "500 Internal Server" errors, especially when the silly thing disconnects during a mail session.
A post like this is indicative of how elitist some in this community have become, even moreso than the old-timers who already do it well enough for us. Remember: not everyone has the technical savvy to do what you do on a regular basis, nor do many of them have the patience. If our holy grail of an OS is to survive, it will definitely need to climb out of the hotly contested business server market, and extend beyond the "oo this is a neat geek toy" range.
--------------------
First, before anyone starts harping on me about "well, if you would submit the damn bug!" or "this is beta, so quit whining" or any other comments like that, forget it. I have heard 'em all before. I have submitted the same bug over and over. It never has made it into the bug database - why? Ya got me. I can't believe that I am incapable of submitting bugs and one would think that after submitting the same bug over and over (10 times at least) that at least one of them would have been submitted correctly. And the people at Netscape - I don't wanna hear "well you should join the project!" either. I've had it with this outfit.
So, here is what has me so riled up today. It all revolves around this page of mine. It uses width="100%" and height="100%" tags on images so that they create a border around the text. It is 100% legit HTML. Netscape 4.5+ has been broken when it comes to this - it all worked fine on versions previous to 4.5. Mozilla has been broken ever since it started. Mozilla used to work fine on the width tag, but now that is busted too.
I have M17 up on my Linux box. It is broken. M18 is broken. NS6PR2 is broken under Windows. I would have tried NS6PR2 under Linux, but I am not going to become root to run a web browser.
This is a joke and it is not worth my time to battle with it any more. Suck was right. It's time to toss it and move on to another project. Mozilla and Netscape are dead.
Unfortunately, no.
:)
Yes, the bug is there per this one - but only 1/2 way, as it is only dealing with width=, not height= (unless I missed something in reading over it).
I have been submitting this bug to there since around March/April of 1999 that I know of for sure, and I am pretty sure I was submitting it way before then as well when I saw it break in Netscape, which is what prompted my comment in my original message.
Thanks for bringing this one to my attention though. It verifies I am not crazy.
So what? IE had *NOTHING* and then Microsoft marketed the snot out of it. If you think AOL won't market the hell out of Netscape 6 when it is released then you probably have another thing coming. AOL will probably ship an AOL CD for every single platform that they can using Netscape 6 and it will be everywhere. It comes down to the amount of money, and the gain that the end user will get (or not) for going with a different browser. Sure I.E. is "there" for every Windows user, but even they don't want to HAVE to use it. Mac users are waiting for something better than IE to show up. And as for the rest of us Linux zealots -- well we can't seem to wait for an alternative.
When it comes down to it Netscape 6 will do big and wonderful things, but it will not be the Netscape we used to know and love - the days of 3x and early 4x are now very long gone.
Thats IF AOL decides to market it. AOL bought Netscape more because of its Netcenter portal than because of the technology. And presently AOL is in a contract with MS that binds it to use IE in their AOL CDs
Have you ever known AOL *not* to market something that they spent even a dime on? Or didn't even develop? And as per the contract, I doubt that AOL will even bat an eye about it. Microsoft doesn't want any bad press about it, and if AOL makes the option then they are helping to expand the customer base beyond just windows.
And let me guess: this will happen Real Soon Now (C)
I'm lost - are you being cynical, bitter, or just downright elitist?
I heard from a friend that ie for mac was not a port at all but written from scratch for the mac by a different group. I have no idea about the legitimacy of this but it was what I heard.
> Imagine the abuse you'd get if for every major build of IE6 you posted a story on here.
Is someone holding a gun to your head and making you read every story posted to Slashdot?
--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Galeon 0.7.1 seems to work with M17. The only change I've noticed: the scrollbar is no longer the gnome one, it is the mozilla one (from the default skin). Does gtkmozembed mean 'embed gnome into mozilla'?
Well, assuming you mean Gtk+ scrollbar and not Gnome scrollbar, I've heard it may no longer be possible to support anything other than the XUL one. gtkmozembed just provides mozilla in a gtk widget.
No, Galeon depends on gnome libs
We get those same type of requests everyday on the mailing list, so we added them to a temporary FAQ. We don't support them yet because they weren't possible with the gtkmozembed API at the time. It's not as trivial as you would expect at all.
For those of you that think the default modern skin sucks (like me). Check out x.themes.org there are many cool skins there including my own, Mozbilla, which makes Mozilla look like IE on Windows 98/2000 ;)
-ShieldWolf
just = (My)Opinion.toCents();
You'd get abused for posting stories about new releases of IE because 90% of Slashdot readers can't even use IE. Why would readers care about software that not everyone can use? Mozilla is at least usable by people.
If I used Windows, I would use IE. It's a good little program. But I use Linux, BeOS, and Solaris. I really don't care about new releases and features of IE, but I do care about Mozilla, simply because Mozilla runs on all the platforms I use. A news story about new features of IE is at the same interest level as a news story about new features of NetPositive (the default BeOS browser).
I finally got Galeon up and running myself. I have mixed feelings about it. It's nice and fast, first of all, and I like the minimalistic approach. Up to a point. It's still missing a couple of key features that I need to do serious browsing with it. One is the ability to go back (or forward) more than one step at a time. The other is being able to open a link in a new window (middle click in Netscape). I use that all the time. Anybody know offhand whether the developers plan to add these features?
Admit nothing, deny everything and make counter-accusations.
Maybe in theory... in reality, every WAP phone in the US comes with the phone.com browser, which lies like a dog in its accept header - for example, all the browsers claim to accept text/html, when in fact some of them do not. So, if you're developing web apps that need to work with multiple WAP phones, you need to get your hands dirty by sniffing the user-agent, instead of just looking at the accept header. Stupid stupid stupid.
It is true. Kids these days think typing is too much hassle. Oh my god, you had to click 3 times and it didn't show a picture of your mom and sing lullabys to you while it installed. It is a browser idiot. It is an "Internet Client". There is no such thing as a "browser" because the internet isn't simply pointing and clicking now. If all you wanted was a browser then go back to netscape 2.0. You will browse and pretty damn fast. I don't understand all you people bickering about this and that because its bloated, to small, to plain to flashy, whatever the problem you have choices. So choose wisely.
just been using the linux version for awhile. speed has improved for scrolling. reflow still does some wacky things, but all in all feels like an imporovement.
Didn't compile. Maybe I should try that...
--
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
Did you try compiling it yourself with --enable-optimize and --disable-debug passed to the configure script? That helps a whole lot (you may also want --disable-mailnews if you only want the browser).
--
People keep claiming this, and when you have Active Desktop running, the arguement probably has merit.
However, on my computer with NT4 SP6 there is no basis for this. Yes, some DLLs used by IE are already loaded into memory, and this does account for some of the speed up, but actual application itself isn't. I know you are going to say "The actual application isn't the major part of IE" - well, that isn't really true either. IEXPLORE.EXE on my computer (which I guess is the UI to the browser, the support functionality - bookmarks etc -, the rendering engine, and maybe some networking code) is taking up over 8Meg rendering Slashdot. If I close it, that application disapperars, and I get 8Meg back.
This is comparable to the 10Meg or so it takes Netscape to do the same task.
Therefore, I conclude than IE isn't loaded into memory, at least on my computer.
I'm a big IE5 fan. I think it is stable, fast, and reasonably standards compliant - despite the general view on Slashdot. I doubt anyone can argue that it is better than Netscape 4, anyway.
I tried Galeon the other day. If you haven't heard of this, it is a GNOME/Gtk based browser, which uses the Mozilla "Gecko" rendering engine. I was very impressed. You remember all that stuff everyone was saying about how Mozilla was going to be the fastest render on the block? Well.. it's a close call, but I'd say Galeon is pretty close to achievig that now (This with is M16 - it might be quicker now).
As for startup time (always the problem with normal Mozillas) - it is now much, much quicker than Netscape 4 on either Windows of Linux, and getting close to IE5 (which is the fastest starting browser I've ever seen, except maybe Lynx or something).
It's not quite ready for everyone to use - there are a few niggling problems (no animated "Page Loading" icon so you know when it is doing something for instance).
The cool thing is that using this doesn't stop you from using XUL as well. For instance, I used it to ftp a file, and was surprised to see a new window pop up with a XUL based download monitor.
Very Impressive. If you can't wait for the Mozilla UI to get better, give this a go. At least it will start putting a few "Mozilla 6" in web server logs around the place.
Oh yeah.. I found you needed Helix-Gnome for it to work correctly on Redhat 6.2
All praise the mighty lizard... for the first time, Mozilla has displayed the PNGs at http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/pngs-img.html flawlessly. Good work, Mozillans!
Absolutely. Running an installer program like this feels like dealing with a call-center.
'Thank you for installing Netscape, Your are in a queue. Your download request will be answered shortly'
At least it doesn't play the 'William Tell Overture' in four part square-wave harmony or force you to listen to Phill Collins whilst it installs...
Only a matter of time of course.
>ldd mozilla-bin |grep libc /lib/libc.so.6 (0x400bd000)
/lib/libc.so.6
/lib/libc.so.6
libc.so.6 =>
>dpkg -S
libc6:
>dpkg -s libc6 | grep Version
Version: 2.1.3-10
Yeah, looks like glibc2.1
signatures pending - ansa@kos.to - (dont mail there)
I'm really impressed with this milestone -- the first that I tested that actually works fine.
My question (I read a Mozilla FAQ but I didn't find an answer): I have Sun's 1.3 JDK installed. The JDK of course includes all runtime classes and a virtual machine. Is there a guide on how to activate the VM under Mozilla? Is Sun's JVM OJI-compliant?
Am I the only one experiencing these problems: o Under Win98, it seems to render pages perfectly fast, but downloads many sites very slowly. On the same machine Communicator 4.7 or MSIE downloads these sites 3 or 4 times faster. o Under Win98, after 4 or 5 minutes of use, M17 and PR2 both with grab buckets of RAM for an instant and then give it back -- often enough to generate a "90% of resources in use" warning. If I run resoure meter, I can see the system resources take a dive and bounce right back as I load pages. These two problem make either version unusable for me. As I type this, I also notice that the cursor disappears from the text box when there's no keyboard activity. Very annoying.
Mozilla maintainers - please, PLEASE, when you are creating a mozilla tarball, make the top level directory something like "mozilla-M17", or even "mozilla". When I untar that archive, I do NOT expect it to create a directory called "package". Please follow the lead of every other well-behaved program installed from tarballs.
</rant>
I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.
You'll all notice that there is now an "sea" dir on the FTP, which seems to hold a huge setup file, which should save everybody downloading the damn thing X times.
2 /unix/linux22/sea /netscape-i686-pc-linux-gnu-sea.tar.gz
w indows/win32/sea/N6Setup.exe
2 /mac/macos8.5/sea/MacNS6Ful lInstaller.sea.bin
Lin
ftp://ftp.netscape.com/pub/netscape6/english/6_PR
Win
ft p://ftp.netscape.com/pub/netscape6/english/6_PR2/
Mac
ftp://ftp.netscape.com/pub/netscape6/english/6_PR
"How much truth can advertising buy?" - iNsuRge - AK47
"How much truth can advertising buy?" - iNsuRge - AK47
Hey, I'm impressed that you can get PR2 to run at all. When I try to run it on Win98 all I get is the splash screen and then it just hangs forever until I kill it. I know that this is just a preview but I can't get it to do anything at all. I'm downloading M17 right now so maybe that will work better. BTW, I have to use Windows at home since I'm telecomuting and my company's VPN client and mail client only run on Win32.
-----------
"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
Better than what I got. It segfaults right after it asks me for the install dir (yes, I have perms).
I even tried DL'ing the installer twice. I noticed the xpi dir but there's no instructions in the README on bypassing the autoinstaller. I assume you can get away w/ just sticking them in the same dir (or maybe an xpi sub dir).
--
A mind is a terrible thing to taste.
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."
--
A mind is a terrible thing to taste.
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."
We who can think for ourselves believe in the open projects developments and as it has our interest, we surely give it the worthy attention, as this is a project for everyone, you included albeit you have no clue yet. I have a dream of a useful browsing platform for all systems, mozilla is the closest thing, ie is the opponent. It basically is a war between good and evil.
Oh my god. Religious tones to a discussion about browsers? Come ON man, it's a fucking piece of SOFTWARE. Lighten UP. I know you find this hard to believe, but Netscape is not "good" because they are open source. They're still a corporation, owned, I'll remind you, by AOL/Time-Warner. They are in it for the profit, not for any overarching battle of good vs. evil.
Here's some advice: Go home, smoke a joint and RELAX. Do this and I assure you you'll realize that it just doesn't fucking matter at all in the bigger scheme of thigns. It really is not worth getting that worked up over, my bruthah. I haven't seen rhetoric like that since I went to a Baptist Church a few months ago. Oy. But they were talking about gays, not browsers. The tone was the same, though.
- Rev.So, should I download M17 or Netscape?
How do they differ? Anyone who tried both of them that can give me a hint?
Every so often I grab the latest milestone and try it out.
To those struggling along in the trenches on Mozilla:
Keep up the good work. The lizard is steadily improving in both stability and features. Ignore the naysayers and trolls. Most of them have never written a line of code and are just happy to have something smart ass to say.
To those wondering if they should install:
To soon to say. There is clear improvement over previous builds and it has yet to crash.
"Hey... don't be mean." --Buckaroo Banzai
I have my hosts file edited to send ad sites to 127.0.0.1. This works great with IE and Netscape, but on mozilla I gives me alert popups on each failed connection:
The connection was refused when attempting to contact ad.doubleclick.net
Does anyone know a way around this?
Thanks,
-Bruce
If you don't want to use the installer to download everything, just do it yourself - grab everything in the xpi directory and copy the installer to your local xpi directory and run it. No more autodownloading...
I posted this basic thing to Mozillazine: I'm sick of the previews. Either Netscape should put out a *real* product, or just make us wait, but not tease us with "Netscape 6" previews which are basically a nightly build with some funky Netscape installer. If we get another preview that will be pushing it. One preview, fine. Two, and we know that you're schedule is slipping. But three and beyond we realize you are just toying with us while you putz around. This is not really helping Netscape's image. I sure hope the next thing the get out has actually had some effort put into something called "packaging", not just taking a nightly and slapping on AOL AIM and saying it's done. I'm getting really frustrated (yeah yeah it's free, but it's still frustrating being tempted with intriguing downloads that are just loosely assembled nightly builds and AOL junk).
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
Well, I have to play devil's advocate here. There is as much FUD about the benefits of Open Source as there is about deficits. Let me state it plainly: I do believe that Open Source in *general* can often be slower to develop, incorporate, and release *new* stuff. Open Source has been proven *excellent* for incremental development and bug fixes. The turn around rate is amazing *once there is a solid foundation*. But because Open Source projects are based on personal will, often things don't move as fast in the *consumer's* direction as a traditional cathedral monk-to-the-grindstone approach. Please, let's not be so blind as to not realize the reality of Open Source projects - their great benefits and their real deficits...it is only doing a disservice and reducing credibility. I have faith that *when* Mozilla comes out it will be of a quality much greater than any other commercial product of its type, but the price has been the long time to delivery. Suck is not doing any "marketing shit". I find Suck actually to be rather clueful. Let's just not spew venom just because somebody has insulted our baby.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
The installer dumps core after downloading the first few files.
Mozilla is has been rewritten and shares no code with Netscape. Netscape 6.x releases *are* Mozilla releases.
While I applaud and Mozilla effort it is a shame that the newer browsers and the old all appear to require an excessive amount of if statements for the pages to all work the same. Plaudits to Slashdot for sticking with 3.2 but many sites suffer from code like the following:
browserName = navigator.appName;
browserVer = parseInt(navigator.appVersion);
var browseR = "bad";
if (browserName == "Netscape" && browserVer >= 3)
browseR = "good";
if (browserVer >= 4)
browseR = "good";
(from Dilbert)
And the rise of WAP has increased the problems. Roll on the days of XML and XSLT and at least things will be easier to manipulate even if they are still working differently.
Standards would be a nice idea
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
I can't download from netscape with my linux machine - never have been able to. lftp, ncftp,ftp,netscape - doesn't matter what I use.
I can dl from mozilla fine, and I can dl from netscape fine with windows.
Owell, I don't know why I'm so anxious to use that bloated peice of crap anyway. They both crash every 5 mins, at least my netscape 4.73 stays up and running for long periods of time.
I believe that was also irony, idiot ... but quit feeding the trolls ... didn't you catch the "kidding....just kidding..." part?
--elint
And is it just me, or does the Mozilla Seamonkey icon look like a 'reversed' IE icon? If you look at them next to each other it sure is an interesting play on visual imagery :)
pentae.
No, you are wrong. Linux won't report 160 MB, it'll report 4 MB for each thread. His mozilla really IS using that much memory.
Well -- I have to say... I just downloaded Mozilla M17 and I was very impressed. It is fast, seems fairly stable, renders things right... but one thing I did notice is that when I went to /. to post my reaction and tried to type my username into the "username" slashbox, the whole left side of the screen started scrunching itself until it was very small! Did anyone else see this? I thought it was pretty funny, myself. =) I'd report it as a bug, but with hundreds of other /. readers probably noticing the same thing, I'm not sure if it would be worth my time.
Have you tried Opera? It is much better faster on a Pentium 100 than Netscape or IE and it should work decently on a 486.
It sound like they compiled with gcc using the
-march=i686 switch instead of the -cpu=i686 switch. The former switch allows the compiler to use optimisations that wont work on older architectures. The latter option still optimises for the given archicture, but doesn't break backwards compatiblity, therefore it makes more sense for a publicly released binary.
Note that an AMD K6 is compatible with the intel Pentium instruction set and not the Pentium Pro instruction set (as used by PII's and Celerons)
I you are compiling for yourself on an AMD K6
try the -march=k6 switch.
Those that are interested in the architecure dependent optimisations for the i386 family, see:
http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc_2.html#SEC33
Chris
No not all americans forgot... at least not this one.
./netscape-installer
[tjones@ecc netscape-installer]#
Segmentation fault
[tjones@ecc netscape-installer]#
oh yeah this is netscape 6pr2 NOT Mozilla. M17 worked fine after I untarred it.
"The importance of using technology in the right way has never been more clear."
If you read the release notes it says that M17 is the last of the major feature work and that from this point on they are going to focus on performance and stability. So maybe in the end, Mozilla won't be as bloated as everyone is expecting. Only time will tell.
I guess I should be using it... There are SOOO many posts that say that Mozilla/NS6 suck and IE5 is a GOD... I mean, if it's THAT good, why wouldn't I want it?
Where can I get a copy?
Oh, by the way, I'm running RedHat 6.2
-- You can't idiot-proof anything, because they're always coming out with better idiots.
The things that annoy me most about mozilla is that the find in page does not work if there are frames present (bug #40583). And there are numerous crash bugs including some with animated gifs (bug #22519).
As I've said before, Mozilla is progressing just fine as far as I'm concerned. I have found no new bugs in several weeks. A few months ago I was finding a new bug every few days. And within the last couple months, many of the bugs that I had on the top of my list have been fixed. Mozilla is even less crashy. I have a relatively stable build from a couple weeks ago that I was able to visit every site that I visit on a daily basis without a single crash (don't flame me if you don't know what an improvement that is). It will only get better from here folks.
What do you mean no one uses Usenet? At my university, internal newsgroups are an essential part of academic life. I use various groups for help with work, etc etc, and, in general, I don't notice that a lot of groups are particularly depopulated. I don't use web-based mail for anything except junkmail addresses, and more to the point, none of the newbies I know do either. They're all using Outlook :p
---- I'm going to lead you kicking and screaming, giggling and laughing into the future.
I don't understand.
Why is this post a troll?
Sure it's argumentative. Is that bad?
This question of eye candy before stability comes up with each new Mozilla milestone.
I know that Mozilla developers have been on here
before explaining that it's not quite
that simple. But I still think it's a valid question.
Maybe we need a new moderation text such as outspoken or argumentative?
FWIW I'm posting this with M17 and I think it's pretty cool!
"You can catch flies till the cows come home, but wasps are a totally different kettle of fish."
"Poor bastards" running Slack usually can and will build from sources.
Also why the association from a Slack user with a 486? I'd rather think the average Slack user is a power user with very new hardware, whereas probably a RH user is more likely to have an old 486.
As for myself I run FreeBSD (so have to rebuild from source too) on a Thunderbird/800/512MB RAM. If I would run Linux, it would be Slack.
My question to those wacky developers is: What the hell's going on that slows these modern browsers down? Is is so much to ask for a WYSIWYG Browser?
Capt. Ron
crazy dynamite monkey
Internet Explorer 5 seems to start up so fast because it is already loaded. It gets loaded into RAM during the Windows bootup. Of course, this is also why it takes so long to bootup.
The source is always available, via either the tarballs on the FTP/website, or via anonymous CVS.
Head to www.mozilla.org, there's links right off the main page detailing how to get the source via either method, and build the browser with the options you prefer.
--
Brandon Hume
hume -> BOFH.Halifax.NS.Ca, http://WWW.BOFH.Halifax.NS.Ca/
Brandon Hume
hume -> BOFH.Halifax.NS.Ca, http://WWW.BOFH.Halifax.NS.Ca/
Plus, the M18 builds for MacOS have those cool pinstripes in the Classic skin. ;-)
I'm using Netscape because no one else has roaming profiles. My bookmarks, address book, cookies (the ones I let through Junkbuster, anyway), etc. follow me from work to home to my Brother's house to vacation in the mountains of Wyoming. Great stuff - killer app, IMO.
I hope Netscape adds this to Mozilla since I haven't had the time nor the courage to code it up myself. Especially since Mozilla handles multiple IMAP/SMTP accounts much better than Netscape.
Mozilla isn't a Linux/Unix application. It's a cross-platform suite of network applications. I don't know why they would or should be subjected to the "do one thing and do it well" dictum.
That's a red herring anyway - look at Emacs. You can get Emacs to wash your dishes for you if you are proficient enough with Lisp. Enlightenment? I think it'll tune your car up if you ask it nicely.
Internet Explorer 5 seems to start up so fast because it is already loaded. It gets loaded into RAM during the Windows bootup. Of course, this is also why it takes so long to bootup.
IMO that's a good thing. I like having a browser that load extremely quickly. It would be better if it were an option (as opposed to always on), though.
The shareholder is always right.
Same dif.
-Jo Hunter
If we do not change our direction we are likely to end up where we are headed.
Last I checked, Opera held the number one position in standards compliance - including over every version of IE released so far - for quite some time, until Gecko matured, and even now the Win32 version is very impressive.
I will refrain from further judgement until both Mozilla and Opera are completed. I suggest that you try the same.
-Jo Hunter
If we do not change our direction we are likely to end up where we are headed.
Actually, no, it isn't. But I can see how it would seem that way.
What I was referring to is hard disk space - I'd rather not install an entirely new desktop environment just so I can use one component of it in an entirely different desktop environment. :)
-Jo Hunter
If we do not change our direction we are likely to end up where we are headed.
I've also been using Galeon, and yes, admittedly it's rather impressive. I've never used Netscape 4.anything on my linbox/laptop/current computer/whatever - morals dictate against it :) - but Galeon is defintely able to get the job done faster than Moz, mostly because it doesn't have the rendering engine running four or five different times over just to get the UI working.
I've also been trying out the Opera tech preview, and, Qt notwithstanding, it's even more impressive in terms of speed. From one alpha to another, it can fairly easily beat Galeon on my comp, and Mozilla... it makes Mozilla look like frozen molasses. Of course, it's also based on Qt (good for some, bad for some), closed, proprietary, shareware, crashprone as any alpha app, and still uses an MDI interface at the moment. But at least for the last two it'll get better... :)
Oh, and what's happened to Konqueror? I must have tried at least four times to get that damn thing working on my laptop (and trying to avoid having to install the whole of KDE2 beta for the first two tries), and each time it just doesn't want to start up. Might there be a plan of some kind to take the various sundry libraries that Konqueror uses out of KDE and repackage it into a seperate application? Something like that would be very nice...
-Jo Hunter
If we do not change our direction we are likely to end up where we are headed.
Not to knock the rest of your comments but testing load times on Slashdot is a _very_ poor benchmark. I'm sure you're smart enough to know some reasons why but in my own experiences both seem nearly identical in speed.
Fsck cluebie moderators. I'll say what I want, offtopic or not. And fsck having to qualify every bloody statement just
You are almost right. Of course developers must listen to their users. But both this AC and the suck.com piece are not giving feedback that developers can use. For what this forum is worth, asking AOL to bury Mozilla isn't an advice, but an attack. Ok, it's not "marketing shit", but why do people complain about something they haven't even tested this year? Call it sour grapes, Mozilla is indeed late according to IE's scheme. But that's no reason to doom Mozilla to hell.
Btw, hats off to Hard_Code for his great post.
Try here.. Example: the skin MozBilla, which makes Mozilla look like IE (which a nice Bill icon right up). Installing it is a matter of copying files somewhere in the Mozilla-tree and restart the program. See the README which is included. I haven't figured out yet how to run multiple skins on the fly.
I skipped the initial suck.com discussion, but I'll bite here. Let's face this fact: Microsoft can't be beaten on its own platform. Mozilla, however, is intended to do all the things right that both IE and Netscape did wrong. That costs time and you know it! There's a reason that features are being added.. /dev/null until the Mozilla crew actually made it to 1.0! I tested yesterday's nightly build and except for keyboard shortcuts not being working under Linux, I thought Mozilla was fast, neat and stable. Give it a try and help Mozilla rather than just asking to bury it. Shame on you.
It seems to be fashion to claim that Open Source is slow and never releases something final, and that's just plain FUD. Because you, and I, and Suck are users and not developers, we have the right to beg and complain about final releases. But please, keep this Suck marketing shit in
I don't see how people using most non-Micros~1 OSes have that choice. - they don't have any IE5 available!
I imagine you were refering to linux, but I just wanted to point out that the MacOS has IE5, and it is badass! =) I just assumed that IE on Windows would be the same, but I was sorely disappointed when I started using my Win2k notebook. I can't wait till the PC version of IE catches up with the Mac version (I have no idea why MS would have it still lagging behind). The PC version is pretty clunky, and I can see why many PC users prefer Netscape (there is NO competition on the Mac side: Netscape SUCKS!).
If you've never used Mac IE5, you should find someone with a Mac and check it out. I think it may be the best browser on any platform.
- Isaac =)
maybe it's because i haven't slept in almost 24 hours
maybe it's because i had too much sugar today
but godDAMN if that didn't strike me as grossly funny. hehe
--
you must amputate to email me
--
you must amputate to email me
i read all replies to my comments
IE5 is out there and it is better than anything else so why suffer through something of lesser quality when now we have a choice and do not have to.
Uhm... I don't see how people using most non-Micros~1 OSes have that choice. - they don't have any IE5 available!
I've been using Mozilla M16 most of the time since I downloaded it (I'm downloading M17-talkback right now) and I'm pretty happy with it - It's far from perfect, but it usually does a better job than Netscape 4.7x and is about as stable...
And yes, I guess I can run IE5 in a vmware session... that would work - I've tried... but i just don't like running my webbrowser non-natively... It just feels silly...
--
Ner lbh sebz gur HFN? Gura lbh'ir whfg ivbyngrq gur QZPN!
I was refering to GNU/Linux, *BSD, BeOS, etc..
And I have to point out that I said "most non-Micros~1 OSes" - "most", not "all"... =)
(Btw, I think you can get IE for Solaris, HPUX, etc too)
--
Ner lbh sebz gur HFN? Gura lbh'ir whfg ivbyngrq gur QZPN!
Here's my DeCSS mirror. Where's yours?
Here's my DeCSS mirror, where's yours?
Here's my DeCSS mirror. Where's yours?
Here's my DeCSS mirror, where's yours?
Gorkman
What about from other clients?
What about using fetchmail?
can somebody tell me how to RTFM?
I suggest any who haven't yet done so, check out the about:mozilla which is at least in the M17 and nightly M18 builds... We have an entry from a heretoforth unrevealed chapter/edition :-)
:-)
Aside from that, I found the Linux/x86 M18 build tonight to be wonderful, better than the M17 build by quite a margin. The interface is getting much faster, though it's not quite as fast as native GTK. If this level of improvement continues, we're in for a fast browser, and soon
GPL: Free as in will
Cool...it seems the Germans are speaking English now and that Netscape 6 has support for their dialect.
--
-- SIGFPE
As usual, there is a mirror via:
SourceForge FTP.
---
Drew Streib
---
Drew Streib, dtype.org
I love IE, I'm just not so keen on the Borg
Mozilla sucks mightily (IMHO, lets not get sidetracked), but it's the only competition that IE has, something we all desperately need.
In a world without any IE competition, IE will soon look like nothing more than a WebTV plugging us straight into Shop@Redmond and The Barney Channel.
I've just tried to install the release, downloaded from ftp://ftp.netscape.com/pub/netscape6/english/6_PR2 /windows/win32/N6Setup.exe
and it appears to be a trojan, which attempts to make an HTTP connection to
sweetlou.mcom.com/.../
It's not bad, but.. 38M for three windows? Ian
kidding....just kidding...put down the stick, Taco.... taco....????
Free music from Jack Merlot.
Press "advanced" at the last step to get proxy config.
I'd recommend avoiding NS6PR2. It really sucked for me -- ads, registration, crash. Try Mozilla M17, which works much more nicely.
Lots of crap while downloading, *ads* while downloading (It better not have installed that advert.dll nonsense), tedious registration (note to developers: if I have to uncheck boxes to remove myself from mailing lists, that is OPT OUT, not OPT IN!)... Then it crashed on startup.
Vanilla Mozilla is good. I wish it had working https support and (sometimes) Java -- that's what NS6 should be, really. I am worried.
HTML describes content not layout.... Nope, doesn't sound right to me.
This may have been true a few years ago, but the majority of markup available within HTML since 3.2 is descriptive of layout, a vast majority. A whole industry has grown up around the layout features of HTML, much to its detriment. Thus XML.
illegitimii non ingravare
No, they just want you to /think/ you have to register. What they're 'offering' is to join Netcenter, except, as of 4am this morning you couldn't join Netcenter, even if you wanted to.
Weapons of Mass Analysis
It's getting better.. In M17, XPI installation became available, which should outstrip those two packaging methods. XPI files, when selected in Mozilla, cause the browser to notify the user that this is an installation package, and asks nicely whether he wants to let it in.
Of course, at the moment, skins are often milestone specific, so you're going to have trouble with anything outside of Modern, Classic and MozBilla with M17.
Weapons of Mass Analysis
Has anyone been able to log in to Yahoo Mail? I've tried it in both PR2 and Moz17 and neither will work. I just get brought back to the same login screen. I know this worked in previous versions. Oh well, one more thing.
Nate
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
Is there an opportunity for a company to sell Mozilla support and offer an easy to use, easy to install version of Mozilla that doesn't suck like everyone is saying Netscape PR2 does? Why doesn't someone grab the source, start a new company and run with it?
-jimbo
"Hold me Bob!" "I would if I could man!" -Larry and Bob in VeggieTales
Disclaimer: I am the eternal Linux newbie.
From what I know of Linux and Unix in general, the basic motto is a program should do one thing and do it well.
From what I hear of Mozilla, they keep adding new features, ones that are questionable for a web browser. (I've heard people joking about making a Office Suite out of Moz...)
What I'd like to know is if there is anywhere these two methods meet? Does the current development of Moz mesh with the general Unix philosophy(sp?)? Or has the development of Moz gone horribly wrong?
Wiwi
"I trust in my abilities,
Wiwi
"I trust in my abilities,
but I want more then they offer"
Just like the subject line says. Of course Netscape 6 sucks ass, it's made by AOL, the same fine folks who brought us that helpdesk nightmare and lawsuit waiting to happen, AOL 5.0. Seriously, no one can blame Mozilla for AOL's incompetence. And, I don't care if Netscape 6PRwhatever is going to be most people's introduction to Mozilla, because there's still plenty of time for Mozilla/Netscape 6 Final to prove themselves. After all, did you ever run Netscape 0.9, the prerelease version of Netscape 1.0? It was horrid, horrid, and evil, and made Mosaic look like the future of the Net. Or, ever run early versions of IE? My GOD, the hooror that was IE before way into version 3.x still haunts me in my dreams.
Fact is, these days people are more adventurous about what software they install, as evidenced by stuff like Neoplanet, the front end for IE which many, many people download just to get skinning functionality, and other eye candy like WindowBlinds (think Enlightenment for Windows). When Mozilla gets final, people will download it, and people will be pleased. They'll not only get skinning, but more/better functionality than IE, and other useful integrated apps. All in all, this snafu has absolutely no effect on the viability of final releases of Mozilla/Netscape and their future popularity, except of course for the fact that AOL will probably fuck it up again when they release Netscape 6.0 final.
And as an aside, why the flying fucking sweet mother of jeezus h. christ would anyone want to install over the net, DSL or no DSL, when the sane thing to do is just download a complete installer and then work from there? that's a very disturbing trend I've been bothered by. For the love of God, you should always download a whole installation program, and store it for possible future use. Why would anyone want to risk getting disconnected during install, or getting a slow connection to the server during install, or having to download the whole thing over again later for a re-install? I think people are getting too used to getting programs for free, that they no longer bother to keep potentially useful installers around. After all, the version you love of a piece of software might be a pain in the ass to find a good ways down the line, but if you keep a local copy you'll never have to download again barring tragic accidents. It especially annoys me when companies make only the barebones installer easy to find, hiding the complete package on the server someplace; Apple has done this with Quicktime, making it difficult to find the full installer, but linking the Net installer all over the place. People ought to complain loudly about such foolishness.
And some of the problems you mentioned were possibly due to poor multitasking by MacOS; as improved as OS 9 is, it still has very poor multitasking. All it takes is too many processes running, and it'll sometimes choke and run too slowly. And, let's see--you were installing over the net, and that's at least two and probably more programs running; two or three programs can usually run fine, but any other running apps could have contributed to a slow system. And then, after it had installed and you were running Netscape 6PR2, how much stuff altogether was running, in addition to Netscape and AIM? AOL deserves most of the blame for their ineptitude, but never underestimate the ability of MacOS to bog down because of poor multitasking, either. OSX will fix that for good, but it's a little late--shitty multitasking in MacOS was one of the big reasons I switched to Windoze.
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws."--Tacitus, *The Annals*
AFAIK, Galeon is just GTK+ stuff, not full Gnome. Hell, I use it under plain WindowMaker and it runs just fine. And if it wasn't for the lack of cookie support and the nasty things it does with bookmarks, it's be my basic browser.
Yes. As in, "Yes it will crash, more or less" ;)
Syllable : It's an Operating System
Actually, i'm very impressed with the evalution copy of Opera. I only downloaded it last week, but it's stable, and damn fast. I'm sure it'll be even better once i've gotten used to it's UI :)
Syllable : It's an Operating System
You don't want Galeon if you don't run Gnome...
Does anyone know if there is a non-Gnome project like Galeon? All i want is a normal, simple, GTK or Qt front end!! Please?
Syllable : It's an Operating System
Is it that difficult to finally implement this feature?
I wouldn't blame this solely on Mozilla. Before I upgraded from 64MB to 128MB, I didn't have to do much at all in my RH6.1/gnome environment before it was paging all the time, even without Moz running.
Ok you got me there! I've added a comment about it applying to heights to as per your comments and those in the bug 25612 (which shows this bug has been around for ages). Thanks!
I think that bug 39901 is what you are seeing (I submitted it a while ago). Yes it is valid bug and yes it is important. I'm very sorry that your bug was not being entered into bugzilla - you don't describe what was going wrong though. Do you have any bug numbers of bugs that have gone wrong? I haven't really heard of this happening before (but then again I'm not as active in moz as I used to be).
Bugzilla can be a pain to use and most of my bugs end up being duplicates but it's better to have duplicates than for a bug to go undiscovered. Maybe if you had tried the newsgroups or irc (/server irc.mozilla.org /join #mozillazine #mozilla) you would have found someone who would have helped you out...
If mozilla is so feature complete, then why the hell dosn't it support layers like NS 4.whatever does? I havn't been able to get a single layers page to work at all in any of the milestones.
And another thing, I totaly dislike the interface. If mozilla were feature complete, I might acutaly figure out how to create a REAL interface. ( and remove all the shit I don't need or want) I wish it was as easy as it is to do for IE... ahhhh. active X controls....
But ok, I'm getting really sick of NS. I've been a devoted user for years, but shit, this dosn't touch IE and IE is getting to be much beter than NS.
*ducks flying objects thrown by crowd and exits stage right*
vw_bob
Sir, I was. I couldn't get it to work.
To the best of my knowlege there are four different "layer" tags. <div>, <span>, <layer> and <ilayer>. I'm rather clueless about how the last three work, but the fact of the mater is that I use <div> and moz dosn't support it in any way that I've tried to use it.
And as I said, NS 4x supports it as does IE 4 and up.
So ha!
It's going to be hard NOT to improve Netscape 6, so I was wondering if anyone knows of any "release notes" or anything for PR2? A list of bug fixes and improvements would be much appreciated so I know whether I should even bother with PR2.
Thanks
Carl
Vote Libertarian
I'm pissed because all they wanna release for a downloadable linux binary package is some shit compiled for i686. Sorry, kids, not everyone runs Intel PII or better. I'm using AMD K6-2 500 and I'd much rather have binaries that would run under Mandrake (i586-optimized binaries). Howzabout a bit of a selection? I pity the poor bastard who runs Slack on a 486 and would like to take a look at M17.
They didn't 'clean up and document the code' they started over from scratch after wasting almost a year messing around with the old Netscape code, but I agree they are making good progress for the scope of the project.
Sanity is a sandbox. I prefer the swings.
this means we're so close
perhaps, 12 or 13 years from now...when i have a kid..i'll be able to give him the first ever release of Netscape 6....
beta.
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
By "footprint" did they mean "getting Mozilla to run properly in a GNOME desktop without crashing"? Guess they should add "sprocket" also for KDE.
GNOME vs. KDE: the game<O
( \
XGNOME vs. KDE: the game!
Will I retire or break 10K?
Layers? I hate to tell you this, but layer tag is not part of the HTML 4.0 standard, nor *any* standard. It's a Netscape proprietary tag, something which shouldn't be used by any self-respecting web developer. If you want REAL layers, use the div tag, it works similarly and is accepted in all HTML4 compliant browsers.
Funny that you should laud IE as so great when it doesn't support your layer tags at all either... twas a silly tag anyway, since div existed at the same time and had the support of the w3c.
"We obviously need a new moderation category: (-1, Woo-fucking-hoo)" --Mr. AC
Since when did VBScript become an industry standard? Answer: it never has and isn't likely to ever be. Otherwise Mozilla is pretty much on the ball, though I don't know what the state of XHTML is at the moment.
We don't need an integrated browser/mail reader/newsreader/coffee maker. For an operating system based on the idea of small modular tools that can be combined, the Mozilla guys sure don't get it do they?
Jesus. Don't choose to fucking install the mail/news component if you don't want it! It's optional! And Mozilla is extremely modular - the entire user interface is replaceable and many of the things in the components directory could go if you knew what you were doing.
Ignore the italicizing on the last paragraph.
And to suggest that it should be dumped! I was using M17 last night and I found it to be remarkably stable and fast considering that the "final" release is supposedly 5 months away. Yes there are bugs but generally they're more of the "quirk" than the "crash" variety. It's definitely beta quality now and it's just going to get better.
I'm sure Opera is great for some people - those who value speed over standards compliance, but I'd rather have an open source, feature complete and *free* browser any day.
And if you're so upset that Mozilla/Netscape has a mail client, then I suggest you choose not to install that component when you're given the option during installation. Gosh that was difficult wasn't it?
Maybe you mean "MozOffice" and other applications like "ChatZilla" but as far as i know they are external efforts. Core developers are focesed on the borwser.
One other thing: I have a yahoo! mail account but i check it with Netscape Messanger. Why? because POP3 is much faster than WEBMail and also I have *threads*.
Af far as there is development in Mozilla i will wait for it...
Just downloaded the 8.x meg version of M17, and surfing the slashdot site with the two browsers side by side, I can say without a doubt that M17 renders faster, has much better font display, and doesn't shoot my CPU upto 100% when using the scroll mouse (n4.73 does)
Side by side with M14 (compiled from source) M17 performs better and renders some a few sites better that M14 butchered.
I'm curious when the source will be release (if it isn't already) so that we can compile our own.
Gotta give it credit for its rendering abilities though. And resizing the bloody browser window doesn't take 5 minutes like in netscape ... !#$!^%
:wq
Or, OTOH, you could just download the mozilla zip file instead.
:wq
Seriously, who used (un)Use(d)Net these days? And a mail client is a useless addition too -- everyone just uses web-based e-mail like HoTMaiL or Yahoo! Mail these days. Strip out all of the crap and just release the important parts -- the browser, the Java Virtual Machine, the plug-in APIs. Enough is enough, AOL. />P>
While I agree with you as far as thinking that those things aren't very important in a browser, you're seriously underestimating the usage of Usenet and non-web - based mails. Quite a few of my friends use web-based mails for non-important stuff, but most of serious mails are send and received via more traditional e-mail accounts.
But right, I think that those programs should be having less priority than the browser.
Everyone who makes generalizations should be shot.
With 75% market share of IE mozilla isn't going to make a dent. Maybe on unix platforms but what percentage is that of the desktop market? So what is the reason these features are being added? Big deal mozilla runs fine on your box, but its still alpha code and nowhere close to a finished product.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
How the hell is a small stable and fast browser taking away my freedom? I use IE to read slashdot exclusively because netscape can't even properly display the pages. I read in threaded mode and click on a thread halfway down a page, I click back and I'm at the top, not where I left off. Thats annoying as fuck, somehow the evil and non standards compliant IE gets it right. Yeah I'm going to fight for mozilla, a slow shitty bloated piece of code that segfaults before its even installed. I use IE because its here now and works.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
mozilla is a failure. It's still an unusable product, and will continue to be forever. Admit defeat, and opensource 4.74, or else give up on the open source route completely. Along with abandoning all work on mozilla, GPL it. Maybe someone other than you lame asses can figure out how to do it (although I doubt it). But at least come out with a successor to the 4.7 line. I'd rather have a proprietary competitor to microsoft than a not-really-free-as-in-freedom piece of shit. You already fired the dumbass Andreesen who got you into this mess, now you're going down the same misguided path. JWZ had the right idea a year and a half ago... Give up.
ok then your [sic] infringing on my copyright! Could you as [sic] me next time before STEALING my comments for your own?
all respect to open source and all that but this thing has been in development for years!
who uses usenet? judging by the piles of crap i wade thru while i'm eating my toast every morning a few million or so souls. i don't know anyone who uses web mail as their primary mail, most ppl i know got it as a backup / holiday mail. i agree the mail and news should be separate from the browser though.
well u can get IE5 / OE 5 on the mac as well, but they are kinda separate. they share some attributes such as sloth and crashability
Actually, I want my browser to handle email and usenet. I still use usenet fairly constantly and I have yet to use an online email interface that didn't make my teeth ache.
kitmarlowe
I gotta get a tight tension on...
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Java being missing is not Mozilla's fault: see this bug report
I am keen to see how small they can make this sucker. I have noticed over the last couple of builds that the memory footprint is decreasing fast but the filesize is creeping up past 8meg. But, it is one thing to get it to navigator size and another thing to get into a embedded system like one of those cooll transmetta webpads (which i *realy* want).
Cheers
http://www.mozillazine.org
I'd concur; I've played with M18 builds on my Win98 laptop and have been very satisfied. Except for some problems rendering radio buttons and associated text on the same line, M18 renders a website I work with far more cleanly.
I believe in the promise of Mozilla, and hope that the Netscape branding and customizing process doesn't bury the project.
I am not a newbie, but any advice greatly appreciated.
I am interested to hear what you have found that is rendered incorrectly?
Nothing large has ever rendered off for me, but one anomaly I have found is that even here on Slashdot in PR2, some of the images used in the tables don't quite line up like they do elsewhere. (Like that little curved corner to the left of each table heading on articles)
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Cherish. Live. Dream.
Hey, I'm impressed that you can get PR2 to run at all. When I try to run it on Win98 all I get is the splash screen and then it just hangs forever until I kill it.
/. articles on.
I'm using win2k to try it out here . . . haven't tried it on my win98 box at home yet, though. Amazingly, I used it for almost half an hour without a crash, and I ended up exiting it because it was too slow to read all my
Go figure, PR1 was fast but unstable for me, this one is the opposite.
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Cherish. Live. Dream.
Better than what I got. It segfaults right after it asks me for the install dir (yes, I have perms).
Heh, man, now that is just bad. I'm starting to wonder if this is a Microsoft product . . .
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Cherish. Live. Dream.
If all you want is a browser without all the extra crap, use MOZILLA and not NETSCAPE.
Why did I talk about Netscape? Because the article was about Netscape. I have used Mozilla as well, and it has it's own set of pros and cons. And yeah, you're right, it will end up the better product.
I personally just can't wait till they're both at final release. Beta is just a tease!
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Cherish. Live. Dream.
Ack - okay, so this is actually being posted from PR2. That's not bad. PR1 wouldn't even run long enough to get here, but we'll see.
Just some opionions right off the bat, though:
First of all . . . fix the installation, folks. I selected a really minimal custom config. and what did I get? EVERYTHING. This is just bad. I din't want any stinking AOL crap, or instant messaging, or whatever. And I already have Java, and I develop in it, so don't install another JRE for me, please. Whoops, too bad.
That initial annoyance asside, let's look at some nice things. Namely, the interface. I actually design interfaces all day long, and this one isn't all that bad. The widgets are a step above the standard win32 API, I must say. Had to tweak it do death though because it had so much clutter! Ick.
But worst of all, what the hell . . . isn't this a browser? Can't we just have a browser by itself? I already read my mail with something else, I already use Instant Messaging with something else, and I really don't need another program taking up space to do these things! And if I wanted to register with your crappy Netcenter home pages, wouldn't I? Do I have to click past 3 screens just to tell you NO!?
But rants aside, it's getting there . . . still slow, still renders a whole lot incorrectly, but hey it IS a preview.
--
Cherish. Live. Dream.
Maybe you should just try to change KDEHOME directory
to null... it's normal when running KDE2 apps on KDE1.x.x
Plain old sigh.
Well, I remember Mozilla saying that there would be a total of 20 milestones before the proper release. Let's just hope it improves quite a bit between now and then...
Richy C.
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Personally, I prefer Opera for the PC, and Fresco and Oregano for the RISC PC. Okay, neither of them are Mozilla cores, but they do what I need a web browser to do (browse the web). I use a mail client for mail...
Richy C.
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At the rate they are going past milestones I think it's even slower than the truck i was stuck behind on the way to work this morning. In fact by my calculations it took 1296 hours to pass one mile... coming in at a fantastic 0.000772 miles per hour.
Imagine the abuse you'd get if for every major build of IE6 you posted a story on here... but because its open source it's suddenly all magical and wonderful.
No discredit to the people working on moz but at the rate they are going they really dont stand much of a chance of winning the browser war. Most of the world use IE and I think quite rightfully so... it's just a wee bit unstable here on solaris so I'm using netscrape.
Let me see
When i'm at home i'm on Win2k and use IE
When i'm on the road i'll be likely on 98 and IE
When i'm at my parents i'll either be on 98 or MacOS 8 and IE
When i'm at uni i'll be on NT4WS and IE, occasionally i'm on linux and yes i use netscape
When i'm at work i'm on solaris and use IE, Hotjava and Netscape in varying amounts.
I'm not a hugely loyal OS/browser/platform supporter as you can see and I do just tend to use the best tool for the job, and that is IE 90% of the time!
Emmm did you just put down IE's security in the face of the Brown Orifice bug in Netscape!!!!!!!!
And rather than patch a bug that's so prolific it's already been on national tv news, netscape suggest you "just turn off java"
:) Go microsoft
I just tried to run the NS6 installer and it is asking for username/pass. Did AOL decide to lock it up temporarily for some reason?
There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.
I agree telling people to shut java off is just stupid... but i fail to see the difference with MS Outlook fix: "It's not a problem. Users shouldn't be running attachments when they don't know what they are anyway"
Tomorrow will be cancelled due to lack of interest
Well I'm using netscape too. Not because IE is unstable, but because I don't have the money to hire someone fulltime to install the security updates for it.
Tomorrow will be cancelled due to lack of interest
Sunday night I was stunned to see what looked like Mozilla in an add for Netscape 6. (Forgive me for not taking notes, I was giving a back rub at the time!)
I should mention that the above process took about 15 minutes. A typical Mozilla install for me is, oh, maybe 3 minutes from download to running it.
It's quick to use CVS too. On a regular modem, it takes about the same time to update from CVS and well under 5 minutes to compile on a PII-465 ... if you do it every day!
Note: This was posted with M17. The first attempt to post for me crashed M17 on a "Read clipboard from memory". This is unusual for the pre-M17 builds I've tried.
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
ftp://ftp1.netscape.com/pub/netscape6
ftp://ftp2.netscape.com/pub/netscape6
ftp://ftp3.netscape.com/pub/netscape6
ftp://ftp4.netscape.com/pub/netscape6
ftp://ftp5.netscape.com/pub/netscape6
ftp://ftp6.netscape.com/pub/netscape6
ftp://ftp7.netscape.com/pub/netscape6
ftp://ftp8.netscape.com/pub/netscape6
FTP sites for Netscape above ftp8 exist -- I'm using ftp13 now -- Netscape recommends ftp1 to ftp8.
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
yes, well if you don't want Gnome AND you don't want KDE then... then... then... you're just hard too please. (Cue outraged Blackbox, Windowmaker etc. zealots....)
What are the weapons of happiness?
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Then I installed the latest beta of KDE2 (which allows you to run konqueror under normal KDE). I am not going back. KDE just seems to have it sorted, and Mozilla just doesn't. All the features that don't work in Moz are there already in Konqueror. Plus, it doesn't slow my machine down to P75 speed. I wish Mozilla well, and I will download M17 for old times sake -certainly on my Windows partition, where its cookie-handling features surpass IE - but I do wonder if this is going to be a success.
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What are the weapons of happiness?
Given that this is /., this might not go over well, but... MS's IE5 net installer is actually quite nice. It's nicer than downloading the entire installer because when I say I don't want Outlook Express, I don't have to download Outlook Express anyway. Anything it does download, it saves locally, and the installer can then use instead the next time you install. (It also checks the components version numbers the next install, downloading any new versions.) You only have to download components once, and you needn't download Greek and Russian Language Support if you don't speak the languages. Since this is MS, some of the options are rather large, and being able to pick and choose the packages that are downloaded actually saves time than having to download them all at once.
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
I tested Mozilla since M7 and now it has become usable.
Its much faster than M16 but still a little slower than Netscape4.X on some things.
Mozilla dead? no its alive and kicking!
I see your entire post as sour grapes - you know Mozilla is late and bloated, but somehow you've determined that users no longer have a say in the product, only developers, and somehow this has given you some small consolation.
Kudos to the Mozilla squad. Keep up the good work guys.
Just keep it lean. DO ONE THING WELL. Good philosophy for a tool, a la Unix, a la Emacs... leave the silly stuff for plug-ins.
--
NO TOUCH MONKEY!
True, IE5 is very good, but I just got the windows M17 build, and it is extremely fast(using win98). There is now very little difference between IE5 and M17, as both have the occasional window display glitch. One thing that is *very* useful is the font size selector in mozilla, which makes it worth using if you have apps that force you into small windows system fonts.
According to the release notes, it should not be possible to associate filetypes with helper apps. Has ANYONE managed to do this. I ran to MP3.COM and tried to listen to a song (lo fi), received a dialog that gave the the option to associate an applicating (Pick App), but when i tried to it said that the feature wasnt implemented yet.
/T
Ok, so i headed over to the preferences dialog and selected Navicagor->Helper applications. Then things got ugly.
Has anyone managed to make helper apps work?
Emacs wasn't built in a day
Good point. There up to like versiopn 20.7 and still kicking. Give mozilla time. Look how many features emacs has. Web/mail add ons. An X11 insterface. There's even an aol instant messenger module. Give mozilla some time. Sure Linus can get a kernel out the door faster than Mozilla can get a browser, but Image if Linux started three years ago trying to create a kernel all the features 2.4.test5 has and run on all the platforms it does. It was around two years for 2.0 to 2.2 and over a year between 2.2 to 2.4. Sure mozilla had a start, but look how long it took to clean up and document all the code. Yeah three years is a long time to wait. Many slashdot readers have actively contributed to mozilla and feel slighted, but not all projects are successful. How many abandoned projects do you have lying on your hard drive?
--- Justin Dearing http://www.justaprogrammer.net/ We're just programmers.
Does this mean it will crash more or less ?
until (succeed) try { again(); }
until (succeed) try { again(); }
Does this version allow that great hack which allows you to view other people's drive contents?
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
The problem with the newer releases of Mozilla, and several versions of Netscape up until 4.0, is that malformed HTML causes the browser to come crashing down. It shouldn't do this. Render the page incorrectly if necessary, but no simple error in HTML should wreck the parser to the point of crashing.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
"Meet the new moz, same as the old moz..."
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
On a PPro running Red Hat 6 and a 2.2.14 kernel, invoking "mozilla" immediately seg faults, dumps core, and offers to debug, which saying yes to results in a process that runs so far and then stalls at "#0 0x400abdc4 in nsComponentManagerImpl::AddComponentToRegistry ()" - which may mean something to someone, but the nightly builds have been much better than this, why is this a "milestone"?
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
I donwloaded the nightly build for Windoze a couple of days ago and I was really impressed. I keep hearing all this noise about bloat, but I ran it for close to an hour on WIn2K and it ran fast and stable! What's everyone complaining about!!!This looks like it's going to be ready in a few days and it looks awesome. The UI looks pretty crappy tho.. Beefarino. AHH RUSTY!
Seriously, who used (un)Use(d)Net these days
/.
i do..
-- everyone just uses web-based e-mail like HoTMaiL or Yahoo! Mail these days
WTF? Who actually 'USES' web based email for anything outside of porn and web-signups.
Mozilla is losing market share to IE every month -- if AOL-Netscape-Time Warner-Nullsoft-Mirabilis ever wants to reclaim that audience, they need to launch a product now
Kinda Funny - as Ive said a dozen times but lastly here.
AOL has a contract for browser-supply that predates their Netscape purchase. Mozilla is building the 'worlds greatest' browser (for most). It will be full featured and powerful. It will be (mostly) stable and it will be LIBRE. We all hate AOL for not teaching their (L)users anything useful, but they are not going to dump 'junk' on their (L)users. Can you imagine the horde of housewives and kiddiez screaming 'AOL sux'? They know who their customers are as well as we do.
We will get a Mozilla that OpenSource hackers built for the rest of us. It is simple market dynamic, the 'old' guard is footing the bill, and we get the spoils. Quit the bellyaching. Give it some time, good things come to those who wait.
I think Mozilla is going to be the 'killer app' that brings Linux to the desktop...
Not that I look forward to the 10e10231 kiddiez and housewives screaming 'AOL Rockz' on
but then galeon appeared and I have to agree it is awesome. Mozilla is unusable on my pc due to the memory footprint - everything else just crawls.
With galeon really really fast no appreciable effect on other apps (48mb mem 300mhz machine) This is the browser we have been waiting for on gnome.
Sure you have the bulk that is mozilla but basically it just sits there.
Microsoft(tm) - a particular virulent virus that has infected most Pc's.
While @ work, I'm resigned to use Win95.. and I notice that Mozilla is generally rather slow on Win 9x boxen.. Anyone out there use Mozilla (M17 or prior) routinely on Win32?
jack's bicycle is music to my ears
Mozilla has no Java by default (for the time being).
It has no IM.
You can choose not to install the Mail/News client.
Mozilla does not require you to register.
Sooo...that leaves slow (which is to be expected since it isn't even to beta--and it's actually pretty fast on my machine, though it does take a few seconds to load initially) and rendering stuff incorrectly which I can't believe is as bad as you say: 'a whole lot'? There are some major web sites which do not render properly, but they are by far a minority. Some of those are because of bad HTML coding. If you find some that should render correctly, check Bugzilla and submit the site as a problem if it hasn't been already!
Moderate this entire thread +2:Funny
382
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382 in itself is not funny. When then reader reaches 420 a laugh is generated. However 382, 412 and 420 by themselves are not funny, it was everything beforehand that made 420 funny. 447 was the kicker.
Amen to that my brother. It seems to render pretty quick although it seems very sluggish otherwise. I'm going to try to run it for a few days to see how it goes. It is an uphill battle though as IE 5.0 is pretty good IMHO, it's fast and pretty stable. Also you are correct about the default theme... I have to wonder who in the world designed that.... it's just butt ugly. The classic theme is a little dated but it's still beter than that space-aged default thing they are trying to use.
AC - Bringing the first post back to the people
It would seem to be our best hope in getting a decent, slimline open source web browser. Are there any plans to port it to GTK? DON'T MISS EleMenT, who are being broadcast on the web and on Radio 1 (uk) TONIGHT! Check www.mp3.com/elementuk for more info.
Mozilla was coded after Netscape source code.
I'd like to know how different from the original Mozilla has become.
In case there have been some source code blocks copy, how can we be sure that Netscape bugs don't occur in Mozilla ?
Is Mozilla proofed against all of Netscape's security issues ???
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Trolling using another account since 2005.
I fully agree with you. :-(
I have 3 machines at home which all are used to surf (shared line, you know...IP masquerading). So imagine what I have to do, to install a newer version of any installer-stub-based programs: yup, indeed....download it three times! *sigh*
Besides I love to have a backup-copy on a Zip or Jaz disk in case something really-really-bad happens to any of my machines: simple reinstall...
I live in Europe too, btw....and in a country that doesn't have DSL or Cable yet.
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
I can't blame you for lack of excitement regarding IE development. IE is closed, taking away freedom, where Mozilla is open, giving freedom.
We who can think for ourselves believe in the open projects developments and as it has our interest, we surely give it the worthy attention, as this is a project for everyone, you included albeit you have no clue yet.
I have a dream of a useful browsing platform for all systems, mozilla is the closest thing, ie is the opponent. It basically is a war between good and evil. Face it. If we aint doing something about it, future generations will be hurt from our stupidity. So fight for it, fight for yourself and yours!
Only by persistance in pursuing the target things will get better, by stalling, IE will only get further away and randoM$oft will continue to set THEIR standard at THEIR convenience, not YOURS.
Your mind is your biggest limitation, especially when being closed.
Dammed if IE 5.5 didn't have a fit when I clicked on the link for Netscape, restarted IE same thing again... after 5 minutes of not responding it pops up with one of those install on demand windows that can never actually install what you need. ughhh... Downloaded Mox 17 logging in to slashdot, found a bug already ughh
and it's already more bloated than the M25. (British-only reference ;)
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
Well I'm using netscape too. Not because IE is unstable, but because I don't have the money to hire someone fulltime to port it to IRIX.
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It's extremely annoying that the Netscape builds are all for libc5 or Glibc2.0. I'm not going to put another version of the C library on my Linux box just for Netscape - it's more than bloated enough already. Mozilla has been way too unstable/unusable earlier, but from the release notes it's starting to look a bit better.
Right now I'm stuck running HotJava, which is actually a lot better than it sounds, believe it or not :)
--
Pokéthulhu
Gotta catch you all!
And as an aside, why the flying fucking sweet mother of jeezus h. christ would anyone want to install over the net, DSL or no DSL, when the sane thing to do is just download a complete installer and then work from there? that's a very disturbing trend I've been bothered by. For the love of God, you should always download a whole installation program, and store it for possible future use. Why would anyone want to risk getting disconnected during install, or getting a slow connection to the server during install, or having to download the whole thing over again later for a re-install?
Why would I want to store vast quantities of software installation programs that I will likely never use again, when I can just as easily download the latest version in a few minutes (or seconds) over my DSL?
I have much better things I can do with local storage... like ripping my entire CD collection to MP3.
-thomas
"And like that
More seriously, I built one of the recent snapshots of Mozilla, and although it compiled cleanly and was more stable than my Netscape 4.7, it was extremely slow. However, progress has been made and I'm anxious for it to be "ready for prime time".
You had me at "dicks fuck assholes".
First, it is GNOME based. Not everyone wants to install GNOME or its libraries. Using GNOME defeats the point of being "small". They would have been much smarter to just use Gtk, IMO.
My second gripe is that it depends on Mozilla being installed. With Mozilla being open source, why don't they just incorportate the code that they want from it into their browser? This will have to change if they want a viable product.
You had me at "dicks fuck assholes".
thx for the help for the local installations!
though i have a t1 connectivity i am refusing
to run a so called 'wizard' as root which autobadically fetches in a non-transparent way some things from where i don't know.
sounds a little bit like a windows installer.
i don't wnat to degrade to that level of security.
period.
Are my the only one who can't get it *not* to underline links. (despite unchecking the option in the preferences dialog).
This is very anoying.
PCXL Forever!!!!
As for startup time (always the problem with normal Mozillas) - it is now much, much quicker than Netscape 4 on either Windows of Linux, and getting close to IE5 (which is the fastest starting browser I've ever seen, except maybe Lynx or something).
Then you haven't used Opera or Konqueror. But it's great that Gecko in its Galeon incarnation, which supports a much broader spectrum of web standards than either of the above, can compete in load speed. That's a really big hot buttom for me.
--
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
can anyone tell me how close to a prime time release mozilla is? I have been using since m16 and find it a refreshing change to think that when ever i get a crash (quite rare :) I can just say "not quite finished" instead of "dum *#(%@ bug ridden nasty code *#^@^*%^@# "
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Drink Coffee - Do Stupid Things Faster And With More Energy!
To use junkbuster, I had to enter "127.0.0.1" as proxy, "localhost" didn't work. So maybe you should try your proxy's numerical address.
And up until this release, I thought that seamonkey sucked. However, this is a very stable release. It's much easier than IE to install. It was a mere 6 meg download, and installed in about 2 minutes. The load time is also about 3 times as quick as the last release (which, if I remember correctly, took 17 seconds to load on my computer). It's also far less buggy. I've managed to post this, haven't I?
Another thing that impressed me was the time it takes to parse a web page. M17 kicks IE's tail (and, quite obviously, NN4.x). The slashdot home page takes 6 seconds to parse on IE, and only 1.5 on M17.
Before this becomes widely used, however, I think that the following things need to change:
I applaud the Mozilla team. They've taken what I thought was an unreal fantasy, and turned it into a reality. Minus some minor bugs, this browser is already on par with IE. Now the real battle will be to get it into widespread usage.
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I'm sorry. The number you have reached is imaginary. Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again.
However, you notice the stunning availability of the IE/OE combo on any platform other than 'dows
Actually, IE & OE were released for the Mac about 5 months after the windows version. Furthermore, IE 5 is great and actually LOOKS like a Mac application. OE is also very well done and both crash RARELY.
Mozilla... on the other hand.... well... in the first hour of using it, I would say it crashed a good 5 times. Then when I tried to view a Quicktime movie, even though I had the quicktime plugin installed, would give me "can not find a match for mime type MOV" and it would let me select an app to choose for it. Then when I tried to uh, select an app for the mime type, I would get, FUNCTION NOT YET IMPLEMENTED. That was just great. It was m16 too. WTF is that? Even amongest the most loyal of the Mac zealots, the entire crowd has almost all converted to the IE/OE combination. All of Netscape's mac releases have been bloatwear and crash riddled, and even though most of us hate MS, Mozilla can't be changed from chicken shit to chicken salad.
Help me through college please!
Last time I looked, Usenet was packed with activity. The previous poster has obviously never really needed Linux help. And the statement that everyone uses web-based mail these days is just crazy. I, for one, find web-based mail infuriating.
As for not producing a browser now, the get-the-product-out-now mentality is the one that has foisted upon us so much bug-ridden bulls**t. Do you want a buggy browser now, or a stable one in six months?
I'm not using Mozilla now, but I sure will when I get home! M16 was greatly improved over M15, and I expect M17 to be the same. C'mon team, keep up the good work!