Yes. It includes the C#, VB.NET and JScript.NET compilers, as well as the C and C++ compilers, along with the up to date libs and headers.
This is surprising (was to me), because although the MS linker had been available previously with the Platform SDK, the compiler itself had never been (the libs and headers were).
The.NET compilers have to be present in any.NET-based environment, so they have no choice but to ship them. But the C++ compiler does not. I'm not sure why they're doing this now, but hey.
In fact, there are a couple of projects now trying to get together a free front end/IDE for the compiler, although I'm not sure if that violates their EULA. There are free/open front ends for C# (SharpDevelop and WebMatrix) available today, of course.
You complain when you don't have participation and when companies refuse to release their products under the OSS model, and then you complain when someone releases software that, in your view, is useless.
I think you are trying to label me an insane extremist.
OK then. Let's just drop the whole political angle. Let's not talk politics, religion, zealotism (is that a word?), etc, etc. So what the heck were we arguing about again? I know - how about we argue the merits of the technology instead!? What an idea!!
You lambasted the general population of/. for being so extremely critical of Microsoft, for making jokes about Microsoft, etc.
If the shoe fits. In your case it does, in other people's views it doesn't.
Coincidentally yesterday I picked up a good number of "fans", and since my email address is now displayed I also got a few interesting messages. I have no hard figures of course, but it's my feeling that a lot of the people that read (as opposed to post) here could care less about the politics. Most of us are here to be informed, and sometimes entertained. We're not here to wage Jihad.
people who take a principled, moral approach to life, politics, etc., get labeled naive, extremist, immature, etc.
Actually, I notice that as time goes by the general approach to OSS/FS activism tends to be much more extreme and much more hysterical than it was before. But this is your strawman argument - you continue to try to make the case that I'm somehow morally inferior to you because I tend to keep my technical interests away from my concern for the spotted owl, global warming and corporate greed. Not to accuse you of being extremist, but I'd rather you extend me the courtesy of using a few brain cells to grok the fact that I'm not a software crusader, and that I exercise the right to come in here and say so. Totonka?
I give you Richard Stallman
Oh for fuck's sake. RMS is a crackpot. He does more damage than good. I'm not one to deny his technical contributions to the world of computers, but other than that the man has no redeeming values whatsoever. Ditto for ESR, whose virulent hate for Microsoft borders in the insane.
But as you have your opinions, so do I. That whole thing is fodder for another flame war.
My point? My point is simply that standing up for ones' principles can change things, and therefore should not be dismissed as being childish, despite the trend I noted above.
Look - I admire that. When it's geared towards something worthy. But in the case of this whole argument, the target and execution of those ideals is less than exemplary 90% of the time. Surely you can see that?
Killing people was an example of doing something morally reprehensible. You were defending proprietary software vendors, who are often criticized here on/. for morally reprehensible acts.
You don't really see the problem here, do you? Do you understand why you (and people like you) tend to use those examples? Have you ever tried to pause and think before you post things like these?
How is that not defending Microsoft? You are defending Microsoft by attacking those who criticize Microsoft.
Sigh. No, I'm not defending Microsoft. No, I'm not attacking those who "criticize" Microsoft. Microsoft does not get criticized here, it gets demonized. Apple is criticized. Sun is criticized. IBM is criticized. If you can't stick your head out of the hole for a second and see that, I really can't help you. I do reserve the right to point out that Microsoft software is several magnitudes more productive than anything you can download off of SourceForge or GNU (without making judgements as to the technical merits of that software), and that people care more about that then they do about this weird belief system you seem to so eloquently espouse. That is the point I made in my original post. Does that make sense?
You are basically saying that any evil Microsoft has done that it is criticized for is acceptable, hence, you are defending Microsoft.
Your definition of "evil" (as I understand it) is tenuous at worst, and stupid and immature at best. "Hence" my ass - please point out where I compared morality (or the lack thereof) to the quality (or lack thereof) of software. You may make that association, and that's your right. I however do not. Neither do most normal people.
But using it just out of sheer desire to propogate the status quo? That's just lazy
If you'd be so kind as to explain what this status quo is, why you hate it so much, why humanity should avoid it and why I'm evil/stupid for trying to propagate it, I'd be happy to answer your assertions. Otherwise all I hear is static to the tone of "viva la revolucion" and "micro$oft sux"
You sir represent everything that is wrong with this world.
And you (if I'm reading your post correctly) represent everything that is wrong with Open Source and free software.
First of all, he said he uses NT mostly as a terminal connecting to a server.
C'mon now, let's not nitpick.
Jesus Christ, what the fuck are you thinking?
I lost you there. Killing people? WTF does that have to do with computers and software again?
I do, however, feel morally superior to some of the shills from Microsoft
Indeed. I guess we can take that both ways, agree?
But why defend the actions of a company just because their product works for you? There are a lot of companies throughout history that are responsible for the deaths of thousands of people, but they created products that worked for a lot of people...
Eh... where am I defending Microsoft? I didn't know they needed defending. Maybe it's that siege mentality that's starting to get to you. And, again, try to be a bit less emotional about these things. Examples like "companies that kill people" are hardly par for the course here, wouldn't you say?
I guess you'd think that the boycott of Nestle baby milk, or not buying cosmetics products tested on animals, or not buying CDs because there the RIAA do things you don't like - I guess you'd think all those things are stupid yes?
ROFL! Are you equating that with the Free Software Jihad? Are you serious??
actually makes you feel morally and technically superior.
Wow, shades of "I know you are, but what am I?".
Just because some people consider more than one factor when choosing a product, doesn't mean they're wrong, it just means they have different priorities to you.
Oh, absolutely. And I suppose that'a apparent enough. But what I find sad is the modus operandi, not the ideology itself.
I don't get it. You are like that NetBSD guy on our LUG list that kept bashing linux whenever someone asked how to configure Y do do Z.
You must be confusing me with someone else. I've never "bashed" BSD, Linux or any other OS for that matter. It's unfortunate that the Slashdot posting history only shows 25 entries, otherwise you'd be free to read what I've posted in the last three years or so. I have an opinion why one may be better than the other in a given circumstance, but "bashing" would be too strong a word, here.
so what drove you here?
You say that like coming "here" requires some sort of membership. Technology is technology, and I find it fascinating, like most 'geeks'. Slashdot does a half-decent good job of covering stories about technology that I'd otherwise not be aware of.
anti-M$ bullshit that gives us pleasure
Whatever makes you tick, I suppose.
Do you see me going to "Bill Gates is a god" list and supporting linux? No! So you should lay off too.
"Lay off"? As in, don't post? Why? Because you don't like what I happen to say? Put me in your "foes" list, tweak your comment scoring preferences and indent me into oblivion. I'm certainly not forcing you to read my "Wind0ws r0xxorz" posts.
I do however enjoy the occasional opportunity to use Slashdot to point out why Slashdot is not as enjoyable as it used to be. It's too bad you can't see that for what it is, but then again I rarely expect that much.
[...] My own environment (on PC hardware) actually runs Windows NT, but it is used mainly as a graphics terminal connected to a Plan 9 server, in a way approximately analogous to an X windows client. [...] For stuff like getting Excel and Word things, plus much WWW browsing, I revert to NT.
Someone has to say it. Draw your own conclusions, etc. People have accused me of trolling in the past, but when I see something like this, all that FUD about Windows, all the Evil Empire snide remarks, all the lame 'M$' jokes, all the misleading and childish comments I've ever read here dissolve into a little white pixel and things are good again. The person who invented Unix is doing what the rest of the world does - use a desktop computer and desktop software that actually works - to be productive instead of to feel technically and morally "superior" (whatever that means). As Dr. Evil once said: put that in your pipe and smoke it. Yeah, I said pipe.
Because, in the real world, people use computers to get things done. They're not used to make a political statement or fight for human rights in Burma. They're tools, not toys.
You're confusing what the employer can do with what it should do. What it can do depends on the law, what it should on common sense and leverage.
You're confusing what an employer wants to do with what you would like the employer to do.
We can sit here and rationalize this for days and days, but nothing changes the fact that the company can do whatever the heck it wants, because they're the ones doing the hiring. The fair labor act (or whatever it's called) does not cover this, AFAIK. So they can't ask you if you're black or white or blue, but nowhere does it say that they can't run a credit check on you.
That's whether you think it's fair or not, and regardless of the privacy angle and any other consideration.
Like I said in another post, you are free to accept or refuse their terms, or negociate something different. But "that's just plain wrong" doesn't go a long way, here.
An employment contract is exactly the same as a commercial contract. You sit down with an employer and work out what you want (salary, benefits, massage) and what they want (8-5, job responsibilities, drug test, credit check).
As such, it can be negotiated. If you can't negotiate a clause in the contract you don't like, then you find some other party to enter contract with. I.e., find another job.
If I need a pool in my backyard, I sit down with the contractor and tell him what I want. Then he tells me how he's planning on doing the pool and how much he's charging. If I don't like his terms and/or price, I find another contractor. Ditto for him.
Most people think that an employment contract falls under some ethereal realm of law where the rules are different. Well, they're not.
I don't understand how this is different from a drug screening test. Most employers require it. How's that different from a background check?
They also read your email and monitor your surfing habits... them's the dregs. But it's their company, their rules, they're hiring you. If you don't like it, vote with your feet and walk away. Right?
Personally I'd be more worried if they told me they were going to do a check to make sure I didn't have Smurfs (replace with your race of choice) in my family lineage going back 100 years. Now that would be problematic.
I don't like the Microsoft keyboards (I own one of them but I don't use it). I just don't like the layout, that's all. I didn't know they made them with USB ports though.
Also, I don't like peripherals that require special drivers. I don't like running "IntelliType" or "IntelliMouse" or anything like that, and I don't really need to launch my browser or change the volume from a button on the keyboard. If it don't come with the OS, I don't wanna use it.
The exception to that being a Logitech program that ships with some of their joysticks - useful for mapping buttons on the thing. But I can turn it off and on as I need to.
Let me give you an example. IBM software, when running in Unix or OS/390 is "teh bomb". But as soon as you move to the "Windows port", things start to break down. It doesn't matter if its DB2 (or is it UDB today?), MQ Series (or Websphere MQ or whatever) or anything else. On Windows, IBM software sucks rocks.
Yet, on Windows, Microsoft software works great. SQL Server 2000 gives Oracle a run for its money in most cases, especially if you run it in a Data Center box. Ditto for software from other companies that primarily write software for Windows.
Oracle is a great database, yes. If you run it on HP-UX. Otherwise it's a piece of crap. Is this due to the fact that Windows is an "inferior" OS? I don't think so.
So before you go blabbing about how Windows sucks because Oracle can't figure out how to write a decent database server on top of it... well, don't. You won't look this foolish and I won't get heartburn.
Don't go pushing your Mac zealotry on me, Twirlip =)
Heck, I've owned more keyboards than I can remember and I've never had one with USB. Actually, I don't think I've ever seen a PC keyboard with a USB port.
But the fact that it makes sense to do that will probably not translate into PC manufacturers actually doing it. The cost of the average keyboard bought in bulk from Keytronic and bundled with a system is about $4. I can't see them going for the $8 model, given their crappy margins.
As far as I know, Windows ME and lower don't support UDF without the Adaptec driver. Windows 2000 supports reading from UDF volumes but not writing (again, you need DirectCD), and I believe XP supports reading/writing to them because it has burner software built-in.
Linux support seems to be there, albeit in read-only mode as well.
I don't know if the UDF spec is owned by Adaptec - maybe it's time for a new industry-wide standard.
Slashdot Mirror
This is surprising (was to me), because although the MS linker had been available previously with the Platform SDK, the compiler itself had never been (the libs and headers were).
The .NET compilers have to be present in any .NET-based environment, so they have no choice but to ship them. But the C++ compiler does not. I'm not sure why they're doing this now, but hey.
In fact, there are a couple of projects now trying to get together a free front end/IDE for the compiler, although I'm not sure if that violates their EULA. There are free/open front ends for C# (SharpDevelop and WebMatrix) available today, of course.
So which is it?
OK then. Let's just drop the whole political angle. Let's not talk politics, religion, zealotism (is that a word?), etc, etc. So what the heck were we arguing about again? I know - how about we argue the merits of the technology instead!? What an idea!!
You lambasted the general population of /. for being so extremely critical of Microsoft, for making jokes about Microsoft, etc.
If the shoe fits. In your case it does, in other people's views it doesn't.
Coincidentally yesterday I picked up a good number of "fans", and since my email address is now displayed I also got a few interesting messages. I have no hard figures of course, but it's my feeling that a lot of the people that read (as opposed to post) here could care less about the politics. Most of us are here to be informed, and sometimes entertained. We're not here to wage Jihad.
people who take a principled, moral approach to life, politics, etc., get labeled naive, extremist, immature, etc.
Actually, I notice that as time goes by the general approach to OSS/FS activism tends to be much more extreme and much more hysterical than it was before. But this is your strawman argument - you continue to try to make the case that I'm somehow morally inferior to you because I tend to keep my technical interests away from my concern for the spotted owl, global warming and corporate greed. Not to accuse you of being extremist, but I'd rather you extend me the courtesy of using a few brain cells to grok the fact that I'm not a software crusader, and that I exercise the right to come in here and say so. Totonka?
I give you Richard Stallman
Oh for fuck's sake. RMS is a crackpot. He does more damage than good. I'm not one to deny his technical contributions to the world of computers, but other than that the man has no redeeming values whatsoever. Ditto for ESR, whose virulent hate for Microsoft borders in the insane.
But as you have your opinions, so do I. That whole thing is fodder for another flame war.
My point? My point is simply that standing up for ones' principles can change things, and therefore should not be dismissed as being childish, despite the trend I noted above.
Look - I admire that. When it's geared towards something worthy. But in the case of this whole argument, the target and execution of those ideals is less than exemplary 90% of the time. Surely you can see that?
You don't really see the problem here, do you? Do you understand why you (and people like you) tend to use those examples? Have you ever tried to pause and think before you post things like these?
How is that not defending Microsoft? You are defending Microsoft by attacking those who criticize Microsoft.
Sigh. No, I'm not defending Microsoft. No, I'm not attacking those who "criticize" Microsoft. Microsoft does not get criticized here, it gets demonized. Apple is criticized. Sun is criticized. IBM is criticized. If you can't stick your head out of the hole for a second and see that, I really can't help you. I do reserve the right to point out that Microsoft software is several magnitudes more productive than anything you can download off of SourceForge or GNU (without making judgements as to the technical merits of that software), and that people care more about that then they do about this weird belief system you seem to so eloquently espouse. That is the point I made in my original post. Does that make sense?
You are basically saying that any evil Microsoft has done that it is criticized for is acceptable, hence, you are defending Microsoft.
Your definition of "evil" (as I understand it) is tenuous at worst, and stupid and immature at best. "Hence" my ass - please point out where I compared morality (or the lack thereof) to the quality (or lack thereof) of software. You may make that association, and that's your right. I however do not. Neither do most normal people.
I won't bother responding to you again
I guess I'll just stand here and cry now.
Turn off signatures in your user preferences. What do you see? Do you understand?
I knew you would deliver on my troll. Thanks for playing :)
Au contraire, thank you for playing.
Probably because while they may admire the technology, they're turned off by the ideology.
If you'd be so kind as to explain what this status quo is, why you hate it so much, why humanity should avoid it and why I'm evil/stupid for trying to propagate it, I'd be happy to answer your assertions. Otherwise all I hear is static to the tone of "viva la revolucion" and "micro$oft sux"
You sir represent everything that is wrong with this world.
And you (if I'm reading your post correctly) represent everything that is wrong with Open Source and free software.
C'mon now, let's not nitpick.
Jesus Christ, what the fuck are you thinking?
I lost you there. Killing people? WTF does that have to do with computers and software again?
I do, however, feel morally superior to some of the shills from Microsoft
Indeed. I guess we can take that both ways, agree?
But why defend the actions of a company just because their product works for you? There are a lot of companies throughout history that are responsible for the deaths of thousands of people, but they created products that worked for a lot of people...
Eh... where am I defending Microsoft? I didn't know they needed defending. Maybe it's that siege mentality that's starting to get to you. And, again, try to be a bit less emotional about these things. Examples like "companies that kill people" are hardly par for the course here, wouldn't you say?
ROFL! Are you equating that with the Free Software Jihad? Are you serious??
actually makes you feel morally and technically superior.
Wow, shades of "I know you are, but what am I?".
Just because some people consider more than one factor when choosing a product, doesn't mean they're wrong, it just means they have different priorities to you.
Oh, absolutely. And I suppose that'a apparent enough. But what I find sad is the modus operandi, not the ideology itself.
You must be confusing me with someone else. I've never "bashed" BSD, Linux or any other OS for that matter. It's unfortunate that the Slashdot posting history only shows 25 entries, otherwise you'd be free to read what I've posted in the last three years or so. I have an opinion why one may be better than the other in a given circumstance, but "bashing" would be too strong a word, here.
so what drove you here?
You say that like coming "here" requires some sort of membership. Technology is technology, and I find it fascinating, like most 'geeks'. Slashdot does a half-decent good job of covering stories about technology that I'd otherwise not be aware of.
anti-M$ bullshit that gives us pleasure
Whatever makes you tick, I suppose.
Do you see me going to "Bill Gates is a god" list and supporting linux? No! So you should lay off too.
"Lay off"? As in, don't post? Why? Because you don't like what I happen to say? Put me in your "foes" list, tweak your comment scoring preferences and indent me into oblivion. I'm certainly not forcing you to read my "Wind0ws r0xxorz" posts.
I do however enjoy the occasional opportunity to use Slashdot to point out why Slashdot is not as enjoyable as it used to be. It's too bad you can't see that for what it is, but then again I rarely expect that much.
Someone has to say it. Draw your own conclusions, etc. People have accused me of trolling in the past, but when I see something like this, all that FUD about Windows, all the Evil Empire snide remarks, all the lame 'M$' jokes, all the misleading and childish comments I've ever read here dissolve into a little white pixel and things are good again. The person who invented Unix is doing what the rest of the world does - use a desktop computer and desktop software that actually works - to be productive instead of to feel technically and morally "superior" (whatever that means). As Dr. Evil once said: put that in your pipe and smoke it. Yeah, I said pipe.
Because, in the real world, people use computers to get things done. They're not used to make a political statement or fight for human rights in Burma. They're tools, not toys.
Sorry again. No, really.
Mod away.
Hope that helps.
- they didn't write the virus; and
- you are a troll
Always get your facts straight, I say.You're confusing what an employer wants to do with what you would like the employer to do.
We can sit here and rationalize this for days and days, but nothing changes the fact that the company can do whatever the heck it wants, because they're the ones doing the hiring. The fair labor act (or whatever it's called) does not cover this, AFAIK. So they can't ask you if you're black or white or blue, but nowhere does it say that they can't run a credit check on you.
That's whether you think it's fair or not, and regardless of the privacy angle and any other consideration.
Like I said in another post, you are free to accept or refuse their terms, or negociate something different. But "that's just plain wrong" doesn't go a long way, here.
As such, it can be negotiated. If you can't negotiate a clause in the contract you don't like, then you find some other party to enter contract with. I.e., find another job.
If I need a pool in my backyard, I sit down with the contractor and tell him what I want. Then he tells me how he's planning on doing the pool and how much he's charging. If I don't like his terms and/or price, I find another contractor. Ditto for him.
Most people think that an employment contract falls under some ethereal realm of law where the rules are different. Well, they're not.
They also read your email and monitor your surfing habits... them's the dregs. But it's their company, their rules, they're hiring you. If you don't like it, vote with your feet and walk away. Right?
Personally I'd be more worried if they told me they were going to do a check to make sure I didn't have Smurfs (replace with your race of choice) in my family lineage going back 100 years. Now that would be problematic.
I not only feel informed, I feel insulted as well!
That's why I come to Slashdot, to hear 14-year olds "tell it like it is".
Keep it up!
Well, what's the point on paying premium for the pretty little buttons and not have them work? =)
I don't like the Microsoft keyboards (I own one of them but I don't use it). I just don't like the layout, that's all. I didn't know they made them with USB ports though.
Also, I don't like peripherals that require special drivers. I don't like running "IntelliType" or "IntelliMouse" or anything like that, and I don't really need to launch my browser or change the volume from a button on the keyboard. If it don't come with the OS, I don't wanna use it.
The exception to that being a Logitech program that ships with some of their joysticks - useful for mapping buttons on the thing. But I can turn it off and on as I need to.
Yet, on Windows, Microsoft software works great. SQL Server 2000 gives Oracle a run for its money in most cases, especially if you run it in a Data Center box. Ditto for software from other companies that primarily write software for Windows.
Oracle is a great database, yes. If you run it on HP-UX. Otherwise it's a piece of crap. Is this due to the fact that Windows is an "inferior" OS? I don't think so.
So before you go blabbing about how Windows sucks because Oracle can't figure out how to write a decent database server on top of it... well, don't. You won't look this foolish and I won't get heartburn.
Saved me a Google there. Thanks.
Heck, I've owned more keyboards than I can remember and I've never had one with USB. Actually, I don't think I've ever seen a PC keyboard with a USB port.
But the fact that it makes sense to do that will probably not translate into PC manufacturers actually doing it. The cost of the average keyboard bought in bulk from Keytronic and bundled with a system is about $4. I can't see them going for the $8 model, given their crappy margins.
Linux support seems to be there, albeit in read-only mode as well.
I don't know if the UDF spec is owned by Adaptec - maybe it's time for a new industry-wide standard.