Yet Apache 2.x has been released a while ago (years?) and yet some modules like mod_perl still have not a stable release. Something doesn't feel right.
>Any server that supports cgi. Isn't cgi kinda left behind the first generation of web apps? I wouldn't want to do a medium/complex web app with cgi for what I remember of it. CGI was simple though.
>C's PCRE implementation of regular expressions and java's are almost exactly the same. It is not, because Java has a real String class in the language without the convoluted ways of C that only knows pointers and char arrays. I still would like to know what text processing you think Java is missing.
>More libraries are written in c than in any other language. Absolutely true, but Java libraries are easier to reuse and put togheter even in binary format on any platform. C/C++ libraries usually requiere recompiling and/or some messing with data types at least. In C you have the added problem of poluted namespace, while in C++ each compiler makes a different name decorating.
JSP lacks the rich text processing it needs to actually be a safe/useful cgi langauge, it's still relativly immature and incomplete, I could go on all day.
I beg to differ. What text processing capabilities do you find missing? A lot of people uses JSP for all kind of web apps without any troubles.
And for inmaturity: Servlet/JSP have a third or four generation spec (2.4/2.0). One could guess the spec is very complete by now. There are many open source and commercial implementations of Servlets/JSP servers, most notably Apache Tomcat at version 5.0.19 (after the last few years 4.x and 3.x). If the standard isn't enough there are lots of tools, frameworks and libraries like Struts, Taglibs, Velocity (templating), etc. Most are de facto standards like Struts that implements a model-view-controller framework for JSP. Don't forget the usefulnes of standards to stop reinventing the wheel every time, something that some C/C++ programmers seem to prefer. Standards help lower the cost of development. If I would do my app in perl or python, how many options of compatible servers can I find? Just one each? IDEs? what about portable binary database drivers that don't force me to recompile my server or my app? If I would code in C for speed, how would I get database independent, portable code? And the text processing capabilities of C are nearer assembler than any modern language. But who does web projects in C these days?
Java has a very nice fit in a big domain of problems, and does it fast enough.
Seems too simplistic an explanation for a complex problex with hundreds of years of history. But don't trust me, let me quote your book's author asked about the Argentine case (my country): "It's an interestin question that I haven't been able to answer because my ignorance an lack of time." The real problem with South America is the first world impossing their convenience on us and supporting corrupt governments to their bidding. We were going down for years following the IMF orders until we started doing our way, then the economy goes up. Now they call it miracle...
Then how are third worlders supposed to get a modern economy if not competing? Here in South America we are hard pressed to sign the ALCA and open our markets, but USA won't open the markets were we could be competing. It's a one way openess. And we are democratic countries, but we are poor.
Re:PHP Advocacy: presentation layer=application sp
on
PHP 5 RC 1 released
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· Score: 5, Informative
You got to be kidding. PHP has two primary strengths: architecture and standards. Java is a general purpose language build from the ground up as an OOP. Java is used from embedded systems, mobile phones, desktops, webapps to world class enterprise projects. Java has a sound definition as a language and its virtual machine. Java standards are defined by the JCP with formal methods for approving changes including Apache. AFAIK PHP is used only in webapps. OOP was added as an afterthought. PHP is a project of the Apache Software Foundation. Architecturally has native standard access to databases and there are drivers for every db, supports distributed transactions, has message queues, takes advantages of multiprocessors, JIT native compilers in the VM, libraries for every need. Don't know about PHP but for what I know Java has a more advanced architecture.
The majority of java webspace applications were written before css and xhtml were mainstream. What apps are you talking about? The PHP changelog shows that PHP 4.0 was released in may 2000. The great mayority Java webapps are based on servlet API 2.2 or later which where release on april 2000. Please explain how Java apps are less suportive of css and xhtml than PHP. BTW, how many PHP 3.x webapps are there?
I predict that there will be a need for css and xhtml conversions among the big java web apps and this will be readily delegated to PHP. If I would have a Java webapp that needs to support css and xhtml it would be ridiculous to rewrite the app in another language, when it could be easily adapted. How would I explain it to my customer? There's nothing in Java or PHP that prevents using css or xhtml or making them automatically supported.
I don't mean that PHP isn't useful, but Java has just a broader scope.
Yeah, with Java we have the best of both worlds: a pitiful number of APIs AND huge Free Software diversity (check Sourceforge). For pitiful I mean I feel pity for those who doesn't have a full featured library as Java has.
God, I have seen things like this happen but I though it was just us! I have been in a long blackout (more than a week), on a hot summer, working in the basements, the generator hadn't been fueled in a while, the UPS wheren't charged, I can't even turn on my PC because every watt is precious on the loaded generator. I needed to access a server on another floor that was on the emergency power line but can't connect, I go there and found that someone has taken the power cable to turn on the water cooler. That was the only water cooler on in the enterprise. Some other time all was right but there was some disagreement between the generator and the UPS then power goes down anyway. Don't trust city power, UPS nor generators, even if they are properly maintained. Isn't there some candle powered computers we can trust?
Ok people I'm tired of explaining how OSS works. This is the last time: the food is open sourced, it isn't free! You can change the recipe and you must cook yourself, but that doesn't mean you can eat for free, isn't?
"the Berkeley DB decision may make sense if the Subversion server is supposed to run on Windows or on MacOS."
Subversion is meant to be portable, I used in Windows and AFAIK there's nothing to prevent it working on Mac OS X. I may agree that a relational database may not be the ideal database to run a versioning system but a raw filesystem seems worst to me.
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Oh my God! They killed Wing Commander!
I remember an article about the inminent death of programming, twenty years ago.
You forgot JSmalltalk.
OTOH there should be little reason for a browser to not be able to last at least a few days open.
Yet Apache 2.x has been released a while ago (years?) and yet some modules like mod_perl still have not a stable release. Something doesn't feel right.
Someone is going to have some months of free vacationship in Guantanamo it seems. You'll beg to be let write in Visual Basic.
>Any server that supports cgi.
Isn't cgi kinda left behind the first generation of web apps? I wouldn't want to do a medium/complex web app with cgi for what I remember of it. CGI was simple though.
>C's PCRE implementation of regular expressions and java's are almost exactly the same.
It is not, because Java has a real String class in the language without the convoluted ways of C that only knows pointers and char arrays.
I still would like to know what text processing you think Java is missing.
>More libraries are written in c than in any other language.
Absolutely true, but Java libraries are easier to reuse and put togheter even in binary format on any platform. C/C++ libraries usually requiere recompiling and/or some messing with data types at least. In C you have the added problem of poluted namespace, while in C++ each compiler makes a different name decorating.
You know, people also lie in their resume about older languages...
I just hope I don't have to see a C++ template again in my life.
JSP lacks the rich text processing it needs to actually be a safe/useful cgi langauge, it's still relativly immature and incomplete, I could go on all day.
I beg to differ. What text processing capabilities do you find missing? A lot of people uses JSP for all kind of web apps without any troubles.
And for inmaturity: Servlet/JSP have a third or four generation spec (2.4/2.0). One could guess the spec is very complete by now.
There are many open source and commercial implementations of Servlets/JSP servers, most notably Apache Tomcat at version 5.0.19 (after the last few years 4.x and 3.x).
If the standard isn't enough there are lots of tools, frameworks and libraries like Struts, Taglibs, Velocity (templating), etc. Most are de facto standards like Struts that implements a model-view-controller framework for JSP.
Don't forget the usefulnes of standards to stop reinventing the wheel every time, something that some C/C++ programmers seem to prefer. Standards help lower the cost of development.
If I would do my app in perl or python, how many options of compatible servers can I find? Just one each? IDEs? what about portable binary database drivers that don't force me to recompile my server or my app?
If I would code in C for speed, how would I get database independent, portable code? And the text processing capabilities of C are nearer assembler than any modern language. But who does web projects in C these days?
Java has a very nice fit in a big domain of problems, and does it fast enough.
You know, the reverse is also true; marketing doesn't mean the technologies aren't good.
Seems too simplistic an explanation for a complex problex with hundreds of years of history. But don't trust me, let me quote your book's author asked about the Argentine case (my country): "It's an interestin question that I haven't been able to answer because my ignorance an lack of time."
The real problem with South America is the first world impossing their convenience on us and supporting corrupt governments to their bidding. We were going down for years following the IMF orders until we started doing our way, then the economy goes up. Now they call it miracle...
BTW, your link is broken.
Then how are third worlders supposed to get a modern economy if not competing?
Here in South America we are hard pressed to sign the ALCA and open our markets, but USA won't open the markets were we could be competing. It's a one way openess. And we are democratic countries, but we are poor.
What happened to that free markets thing?
You got to be kidding.
PHP has two primary strengths: architecture and standards.
Java is a general purpose language build from the ground up as an OOP. Java is used from embedded systems, mobile phones, desktops, webapps to world class enterprise projects. Java has a sound definition as a language and its virtual machine. Java standards are defined by the JCP with formal methods for approving changes including Apache.
AFAIK PHP is used only in webapps. OOP was added as an afterthought. PHP is a project of the Apache Software Foundation.
Architecturally has native standard access to databases and there are drivers for every db, supports distributed transactions, has message queues, takes advantages of multiprocessors, JIT native compilers in the VM, libraries for every need. Don't know about PHP but for what I know Java has a more advanced architecture.
The majority of java webspace applications were written before css and xhtml were mainstream.
What apps are you talking about? The PHP changelog shows that PHP 4.0 was released in may 2000. The great mayority Java webapps are based on servlet API 2.2 or later which where release on april 2000. Please explain how Java apps are less suportive of css and xhtml than PHP. BTW, how many PHP 3.x webapps are there?
I predict that there will be a need for css and xhtml conversions among the big java web apps and this will be readily delegated to PHP.
If I would have a Java webapp that needs to support css and xhtml it would be ridiculous to rewrite the app in another language, when it could be easily adapted. How would I explain it to my customer? There's nothing in Java or PHP that prevents using css or xhtml or making them automatically supported.
I don't mean that PHP isn't useful, but Java has just a broader scope.
My /dev/null is still faster in uploads.
Yeah, with Java we have the best of both worlds:
a pitiful number of APIs AND huge Free Software diversity (check Sourceforge).
For pitiful I mean I feel pity for those who doesn't have a full featured library as Java has.
JPackage has rpms for lots of Java apps.
" Because the enemy (Linux) of my enemy (Microsoft) is my friend."
That reasoning just doesn't stand. That explains why Saddam Hussein or Talibans passed from friendly to foe.
-Agreed. No, wait, I mean against!
-At least let's find something more interesting to flamewar, that is not a good topic.
-It is!
-It's not!
At least not if you like to keep your head.
God, I have seen things like this happen but I though it was just us!
I have been in a long blackout (more than a week), on a hot summer, working in the basements, the generator hadn't been fueled in a while, the UPS wheren't charged, I can't even turn on my PC because every watt is precious on the loaded generator.
I needed to access a server on another floor that was on the emergency power line but can't connect, I go there and found that someone has taken the power cable to turn on the water cooler. That was the only water cooler on in the enterprise.
Some other time all was right but there was some disagreement between the generator and the UPS then power goes down anyway.
Don't trust city power, UPS nor generators, even if they are properly maintained.
Isn't there some candle powered computers we can trust?
Ok people I'm tired of explaining how OSS works. This is the last time: the food is open sourced, it isn't free! You can change the recipe and you must cook yourself, but that doesn't mean you can eat for free, isn't?
Do you mean that because the "workaround" (if you don't want to call it "hack") is "easy" is better than implement the right functionality?
PD: Java isn't.
"the Berkeley DB decision may make sense if the Subversion server is supposed to run on Windows or on MacOS."
Subversion is meant to be portable, I used in Windows and AFAIK there's nothing to prevent it working on Mac OS X.
I may agree that a relational database may not be the ideal database to run a versioning system but a raw filesystem seems worst to me.
Everything... fine... there... is... no... mind... control... I... like... chips... in... head...