Apparently, I have to. But it's a quick one:
A CLI typically is a 'scripting environment', especially the unix CLI which is what TFA is about. So your statement really says that using the CLI is superior to using the CLI, or the GUI.
So your argument basically is 'but mine is larger than yours', that somehow an OS consists of nothing but the kernel, and that i must be a linux zealot. Funny that you call me ignorant while coming up with that utter bullshit.
FWIW, I'm a BSD person and I'm pretty sure you owe me $20. You could win a bet by claiming you'd seen more windows source than i have, but then again, that's probably nothing to brag about.
after they see the proper use of a hammer for coding, will follow suit and start hammering out great code.
No, that's not what I was saying, or implying.
My point was, seeing proper use of the hammer makes them start realize there's something wrong with their workflow, which gives incentive for improving things for all but the toughest cases of Dunning-Kruger.
It frees their mind (and software;)), the rest is up to them.
the long listing of ls is intended to be consumed by humans. if you only care about the filenames, there's just ls, for all other stats there's stat(1)
No, I'm not aware of such a "general purpose" GUI, which would let me do the vast majority of things I can do on the CLI. Sounds interesting, though, care to drop a name? So far my GUI experience was, even after learning a GUI completely, I still was kind of limited to only things which make sense in the application domain of that particular piece of software. Want to do other stuff? Different program, different GUI, start from zero.
So it seems like i have the choice between learning every existing GUI completely, or learn one CLI. I think i know what i choose here.
Yes, but then again, there are people who/want/ to become developers, yet are hopelessly stuck in the proprietary shiny-UI apple-windows world, and often don't realize they/need/ to get out of there in order to become decent programmers.
Even in Visual Basic you need to learn repetition structures, choice structures like else/if, and calling another library and using all its methods cough procedures from that class namespace etc.
You can't program with a mouse.
Actually, most of the coding in VB/does/ happen with the mouse - when you click together the GUI - the evil source of which is hidden from you, however. Ridiculous.
So I disagree. Unix is from a different time frame which is useful if everything is a text file and you need to manipulate text files and pipe arguments all back and forth with thousands of commands that glue it together. How sweet.
These days we use SQL and Google to gain information.
Haha oh my god you
Windows 7 includes instant search
can't be
and MacOSX has something similar.
serious!
Everything is object based today
Is it? what does that even mean, 'object based'. As in, everything in/your/ world is encapsulated into some proprietary binary format which only one special and soon-to-be-obsolete program can decode? Thanks, but no thanks. I rather stick with text files.
and unless you have a system that relies on text files and pipes it is baraquise on non Unix systems.
Big surprise, since those platforms apparently consider text files evil (read: no vendor lock-in, bad bad bad)
W3C HTML 5 and CSS 3 is what the new rage is today with SQL.
You seem to be one confused individual.
I look at Unix as solving something from a different era.
I look at windows as - oh wait, i don't look at windows at all.
Today it is server based because of its apps and is not needed at all for even developers unless they do automation or something.
What a rare case that a developer needs automation./facepalm
No, I don't agree with your moot point. And no, the utilities don't have internal representations blah, bleh. The internal representation of, say, a file creation timestamp is stored in the filesystem. ls is being nice and makes it human-readable, but that's about it.
On the flip side, i know how my clutch works, and that helps me a lot. For instance, i have a buddy who used to clutch in pretty hard, making every gear shift pretty uncomfortable. When i asked him why the hell he does that, his response was "to get the gears together fast, reducing wear and stuff, yaknow?". I explained how a clutch works, that it's rather disks being pushed together, not gears.
He understood, and stopped ruining his transmission as a result.
Speaking of transmission - knowing how it works makes it last longer, too.
By definition you can't find out how a black box works, and being a black box clearly is the design goal of Windows, otherwise it wouldn't ship without source. OTOH, if you/can/ point me to official documentation which explains fundamental design concepts of windows - I will stand corrected.
Slashdot Mirror
Wow that ban went into effect quickly
There's one in borscht, though. (Hint: it's at the end)
You should try Maniac Mansion some day. Plenty of ways to mess up, game-over style
I for one welcome our new virtual ass-kicking overlords.
Apparently, I have to. But it's a quick one:
A CLI typically is a 'scripting environment', especially the unix CLI which is what TFA is about.
So your statement really says that using the CLI is superior to using the CLI, or the GUI.
following your argument, everything is a black box, except for theoretical physicists maybe. You clearly haven't understood the concept.
So your argument basically is 'but mine is larger than yours', that somehow an OS consists of nothing but the kernel, and that i must be a linux zealot. Funny that you call me ignorant while coming up with that utter bullshit.
FWIW, I'm a BSD person and I'm pretty sure you owe me $20. You could win a bet by claiming you'd seen more windows source than i have, but then again, that's probably nothing to brag about.
after they see the proper use of a hammer for coding, will follow suit and start hammering out great code.
No, that's not what I was saying, or implying.
My point was, seeing proper use of the hammer makes them start realize there's something wrong with their workflow, which gives incentive for improving things for all but the toughest cases of Dunning-Kruger.
It frees their mind (and software;)), the rest is up to them.
the long listing of ls is intended to be consumed by humans. if you only care about the filenames, there's just ls, for all other stats there's stat(1)
Well, show me how to tackle the issue in, say, windows "power"shell, i guess. I have a hard time following your argument (and your follow-up posts).
No, I'm not aware of such a "general purpose" GUI, which would let me do the vast majority of things I can do on the CLI. Sounds interesting, though, care to drop a name?
So far my GUI experience was, even after learning a GUI completely, I still was kind of limited to only things which make sense in the application domain of that particular piece of software.
Want to do other stuff? Different program, different GUI, start from zero.
So it seems like i have the choice between learning every existing GUI completely, or learn one CLI. I think i know what i choose here.
Yes, but then again, there are people who /want/ to become developers, yet are hopelessly stuck in the proprietary shiny-UI apple-windows world, and often don't realize they /need/ to get out of there in order to become decent programmers.
Even in Visual Basic you need to learn repetition structures, choice structures like else/if, and calling another library and using all its methods cough procedures from that class namespace etc.
You can't program with a mouse.
Actually, most of the coding in VB /does/ happen with the mouse - when you click together the GUI - the evil source of which is hidden from you, however. Ridiculous.
So I disagree. Unix is from a different time frame which is useful if everything is a text file and you need to manipulate text files and pipe arguments all back and forth with thousands of commands that glue it together. How sweet.
These days we use SQL and Google to gain information.
Haha oh my god you
Windows 7 includes instant search
can't be
and MacOSX has something similar.
serious!
Everything is object based today
Is it? what does that even mean, 'object based'. As in, everything in /your/ world is encapsulated into some proprietary binary format which only one special and soon-to-be-obsolete program can decode? Thanks, but no thanks. I rather stick with text files.
and unless you have a system that relies on text files and pipes it is baraquise on non Unix systems.
Big surprise, since those platforms apparently consider text files evil (read: no vendor lock-in, bad bad bad)
W3C HTML 5 and CSS 3 is what the new rage is today with SQL.
You seem to be one confused individual.
I look at Unix as solving something from a different era.
I look at windows as - oh wait, i don't look at windows at all.
Today it is server based because of its apps and is not needed at all for even developers unless they do automation or something.
What a rare case that a developer needs automation. /facepalm
Wow. Dudes with lots of cash spend lots of cash, for potentially stupid things, and then they feel smug about it. Big news, grandpa.
No, I don't agree with your moot point. And no, the utilities don't have internal representations blah, bleh. The internal representation of, say, a file creation timestamp is stored in the filesystem. ls is being nice and makes it human-readable, but that's about it.
Figuratively speaking, what those people are busy doing is walking, and what they are ignoring is the manual page on 'running'.
Where's the difference between the user memorizing a command, or memorizing having to click a button? The difference here is sysadmin time.
If you had read TFA (last part), you'd know this is about the unix or unix-like CLI. Call it a bourne shell.
The shell /is both/ the language, and the interpreter of said language. Commands are words of that language, no matter how simple or complicated.
Sure. That's what users who are strictly users do, and it's okay that way, let them use their GUIs. This is about developers, though...
Stupid analogy. Programming for OS X or Windows is not like that at all.
Can't really tell for OSX, but for Windows it clearly is exactly like that. At all.
ls has only sort flags because you might sort on internal values (say, timestamps), which are made human-readable before output.
that being said, sort can sort on arbitrary colums (-k)
Your point is moot.
Not true. A good GUI should also support shortcuts and some level of scripting.
Which doesn't enable it to do things it was originally not supposed to do.
but I could just as easily say you can't do something with a command line if a command line tool hasn't been written yet that can handle it.
No, because it's in the combination of general-purpose tools. Did you even read the post you're replying to. Go learn some unix.
Often, using a scripting environment is superior to both the CLI or the GUI.
Wow...just..wow. This is probably the dumbest comment I have ever read. Need I explain why?
On the flip side, i know how my clutch works, and that helps me a lot. For instance, i have a buddy who used to clutch in pretty hard, making every gear shift pretty uncomfortable. When i asked him why the hell he does that, his response was "to get the gears together fast, reducing wear and stuff, yaknow?".
I explained how a clutch works, that it's rather disks being pushed together, not gears.
He understood, and stopped ruining his transmission as a result.
Speaking of transmission - knowing how it works makes it last longer, too.
Windows users know how Windows works too.
Sure. Especially Granny.
/can/ point me to official documentation which explains fundamental design concepts of windows - I will stand corrected.
By definition you can't find out how a black box works, and being a black box clearly is the design goal of Windows, otherwise it wouldn't ship without source.
OTOH, if you