A number of people have tried to justify their theft in this forum by saying "Well what happens if I can no longer buy something out of print."
This is dealt with in both books and music through stores and dealers who cater to used and out of print media.
It's actually quite a big business in so far as people are willing to pay big bucks for certain books or music that are long gone. Hell, they'll even pay big bucks for that original copy that has long entered the public domain.
So I don't see why people don't just do this with software. Instead they stoop to theft and then try to justify it?
I'm a VIC-20 owner and collector and I see games all the time for sale on ebay. This could potentionally be a lucrative business opportunity to buy and sell used software, and there is no reason to think it would be shut down because of the prior existence of those book and music dealers.
I've probably done 30 installs as well. But given that they've been basically to the same box, does that really count?
I mean first there was SLS, then a number of Slackware installs, then Yggdrasil, and then a half dozen Redhat versions and a Caldera and a Corel and a Debian, and a...
If we use that form of accounting then Microsoft must have BILLIONS of installations!
When I look at the chart I'm in shock that the IDC would report Linux growth as being that high. I guess I think their overestimating Linux server installations.
Yet all the responses here are whining about how they are biased towards Windows.
I do agree that these are numbers that are very difficult to count, even counting the number of NT installs is difficult because Microsoft software is the most heavily pirated software on the face of the earth.
But still, Linux growth is that high? Wow! I would never have believed it.
I'm not certain what point you are trying to make.
Early projections did not show a high upgrade rate from Win95 to Win98, yet within a year Win98 had surpassed Win95 as a client OS according to the sites watching browser hits.
So yes, they were wrong, but they were wrong in underestimating sales.
The analogy is essentially flawed in comparing the apple to software or music.
An apple is an apple, while there are various varieties they are essentially unchanged for the past million years or so. I prefer Granny Smith myself, but if I could get a thousand free bushels of McIntosh for free I could learn to survive on them.
This is not the same with books, music, or software. There are millions of varieties of each, and it is the subtle difference between each variety which differentiates them.
It'd be like saying everybody would be happy if they could just have as many copies of the Backstreet Boy's Millenium CD as could ever be made, and this is all you would want for a lifetime.
That's a very dull, boring world. Also, unlike an apple I do not *NEED* music, software or books. Yeah they're nice to have, make my life less dull and boring but that's about the extent of it.
So I think I'll pass on the Backstreet Boys being the only music ever available, even if it is for free.
Mine is like 10 times smaller than yours! NO WAIT 12 TIMES SMALLER!
So NYAAAAH!!!!! YOU LUSER! HA HA!
Besides, slashdot has been going downhill ever since they let Roblimo start posting. But the most fun you can have on a rollercoaster is when you are going downhill, so here's to enjoying the ride!
To focus on a window which isn't on top, you need the Powertoys from Microsoft. It's a free download, and has a setting to give you that X11 mouse feel.
The media is fickle. They like to report on new stuff because well that's their job. They also tend to like to help overhype new stuff, because that get's attention.
What you've seen with Linux over the past year or two is the report and overhype. It had been a pretty slow couple of years for them because everybody was waiting to see what would happen with Windows 2000. They needed filler for the pages.
So the media hypes up this thing, whatever it is... An OS, CRM, ERP, ASP, Workflow, Knowledge Management, Network Computers, Java, whatever. It's always a new buzzword for them.
They spend about a year hyping it up and making everybody in IT think it's the next big thing.
Perhaps it is, who knows at this point.
But then some of the IT people start taking the hype seriously and go out and try to implement the idea. Sometimes these implementations cost millions upon millions of dollars.
Then the reports come in, "This shit don't work.", or "What the hell did this gain us?", or maybe "Are we doing this right? This didn't solve the problems you said it would."
At this stage, now the media starts pushing back on the vendors and supporters of the new buzzword. Why isn't this solving everybody's problems like you said it would? Whatever.
In some cases the people take the complaints and reevaluate and reimplement their system to take these complaints into account. They release version 2 which has dramatic changes and improvements.
In the end if the product does not become the Shangra-La it was hyped up to be, and doesn't begin to dominate. Well the media loses interest and moves onto something else.
This happened with OS/2, all of a sudden about the time of the release of NT 4, news on OS/2 died. People had come to realize that it was being heavily overhyped and didn't live up to the realities.
I think the questioning and pushing back on ASP(Application Service Provider) is happening right now in the press.
And I think Linux is starting to hit that phase. Does it live up to the hype, can it survive, is it worth looking at now that the reports are in?
I'll just say, given my past experience watching things which had incredible amounts of user zealotry like Amiga, OS/2, etc. When the press starts raising these questions, you had better be prepared to answer them effectively.
Mail bombing them, and whining a lot doesn't help. That's what us Amiga users did, and all it succeeded in doing was give the impression to the media "Wow if you say anything bad about the Amiga, they'll mail bomb you. Oh hell, actually if you say anything good with any sort of caveat they'll mail bomb you. Hell with that, it ain't worth it." and they shut up. After a while the whiners become the brunt of jokes in the media.
AmigaDOS for many years was the brunt of jokes. OS/2 quickly became this as well, and their ballot box stuffing on the Infoworld product of the year in '96 really didn't help the cause.
So anyway, with Mr. Moody... Be very careful how you respond. The best response might be none at all.
It's too bad you posted anonymously, or we could have continued this in email.
So basically what you are saying is that college degrees are worthless because 9 out of 10 people obtain them as a step to a new career.
A college degree, or a certification is just a piece of paper that says you studied this topic and have proved you gained some knowledge.
Like I said, I have an MCSE. I obtained it of my own volition basically as proof to myself that I knew NT well. Yep the company paid for the tests, but nobody forced me to take them.
How seriously do you want me to take the certification? I take as seriously as it deserves, which is what most MCSEs I know do.
If you want to test my knowledge, go ahead and send me an email.
But Napster provided the mechanism by which that was made possible. They provided the way to transfer the file and hell they are even providing a directory of contents. They are then encouraging people to connect and trade music.
That's a wheee bit different from an ISP or a telephone company.
The argument that Napster isn't an accessory to the crime is a pretty lame copout.
So artists should just shut the hell up and work for free?
That's what you are basically saying. The cost of producing an album is irrelevant, the cost of recording an album is irrelevant. The cost of promotion, advertising, etc. is irrelevant.
They should just give it away for the cost of duplication... i.e. for free.
Seems to me you're the one who needs to realize the truth.
It's certainly not illegal to compete with the recording industry, but...
Napster didn't try to compete by hiring talent, recording music and distributing it. They decided that the way to compete with the music industry was to take the work that the music industry had paid for and give it away for free.
That's not competition, it's theft.
The technical problems with being able to block pirated music isn't the RIAA's concern... that is Napsters. If Napster wants to pretend to be a legitimate business, then they need to put together a system which plays by the rules.
mp3.com has tried to do that. Isn't mp3.com the revolution? Why has everybody forgotten about them?
As to your last point, no other industry goes around blatently stealing other peoples work. Well ok, the Mafia, but no other legitimate industry.
I purchased Musicmatch, and I have about 4 gigabytes of songs encoded on my harddrive at work.(*)
The key is, they are all ripped from CD's I purchased and have at home. I did this because I didn't want to take 100 CD's from home and store them at work. i.e. it was convenient
This is the legitimate use for MP3 players, recorders, etc. No different than a tape recorder, or a VCR.
But Napster is a different issue, it doesn't record, it distributes or rather provides for the easy distribution of.
As far as reporting them to Napster... Napster has refused to abide by this. If you weren't paying attention they made a big stink about Metallica and Dr. Dre doing just that.
There were other factors involved with the speed limit.
Anybody who has ever driven a car built in the 1970's compared to one built today will see that it is far safer to be driving at 70mph in a Honda Accord than it ever was in a AMC Pacer.
The tires, handling, brakes, etc. etc. are much more advanced.
So I wouldn't say the law was flawed, but rather it needed adjustment to keep up with technology.
Same with copyright. But we didn't change the speed limit by giving everybody a Ferarri so everybody could do 150 mph down the interstate and ellude the police. We did it by lobbying for change.
You appear to have missed the point, perhaps because you didn't read the RIAA brief.
They make specific mention of this supposed benefit, and they point out correctly that it is irrelevant. The RIAA never asked Napster to advertise for them, they certainly never gave them permission to advertise in the way they have. What the RIAA is arguing is that if this form of theft is not stopped, it will impact financially those companies who are working to provide legitimate business plans because people will expect full copies of music for free.
The GPL has nothing to do with this. The GPL is something you buy into, you have a choice in what you do with your creation.
What Napster is doing, essentially, is saying "Hey wow, there is a whole lot of stuff out there people have created... Let's force them to make it public domain."
The rest of your argument seems to be a rather lame attempt to justify theft to yourself.
Heh. Napster makes Microsoft executives look like Saints.
After reading this RIAA brief in it's entirety, they are pissed, and I would say rightfully so.
It's beyond a point where the music industry is going to be willing to work with Napster. This isn't a questionable offense against the business like mymp3.com, this is blatant abuse.
What Napster is doing is unethical, immoral and easily illegal. Napster knows this, and apparently doesn't care and has said so in it's internal documents.
I would have to predict that Napster is going down, they will be shut down and out of business in six months time.
Another important thing to keep in mind, is that alternatives such as gnutella are just going to make Internet regulation worse. If they become a problem, the music industry will come down on them hard as well. It won't be a namsy pansy court case like this DeCSS thing either, it will be a consorted effort.
And if you think it's difficult to do, all they have to do is lobby for Congressional legislation. Warrants for the arrest and confiscation of computers running napster like software will be next.
A task like this does take a great deal of work, as you point out.
I'm always amazed at the number of Linux zealots who throw reality to the wind, shove their head up their asses and believe a Rumormill article about a failed Exchange migration that happened only a month after Microsoft purchased Hotmail.
IBM just recently announced that they will be selling extra CPUs to their current mainframe users for $125k if they only want to run Linux on them.
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-202-2371079.htm l
I guess that's quite a bargain, they normally charge twice that much.:)
Keep in mind that's just for the processor board, you also have to buy the chassis and memory and disk and... oh I'm sure it's a multi million $ bill when you're all done.:)
Slashdot Mirror
A number of people have tried to justify their theft in this forum by saying "Well what happens if I can no longer buy something out of print."
This is dealt with in both books and music through stores and dealers who cater to used and out of print media.
It's actually quite a big business in so far as people are willing to pay big bucks for certain books or music that are long gone. Hell, they'll even pay big bucks for that original copy that has long entered the public domain.
So I don't see why people don't just do this with software. Instead they stoop to theft and then try to justify it?
I'm a VIC-20 owner and collector and I see games all the time for sale on ebay. This could potentionally be a lucrative business opportunity to buy and sell used software, and there is no reason to think it would be shut down because of the prior existence of those book and music dealers.
I've probably done 30 installs as well. But given that they've been basically to the same box, does that really count?
I mean first there was SLS, then a number of Slackware installs, then Yggdrasil, and then a half dozen Redhat versions and a Caldera and a Corel and a Debian, and a...
If we use that form of accounting then Microsoft must have BILLIONS of installations!
When I look at the chart I'm in shock that the IDC would report Linux growth as being that high. I guess I think their overestimating Linux server installations.
Yet all the responses here are whining about how they are biased towards Windows.
I do agree that these are numbers that are very difficult to count, even counting the number of NT installs is difficult because Microsoft software is the most heavily pirated software on the face of the earth.
But still, Linux growth is that high? Wow! I would never have believed it.
I'm not certain what point you are trying to make.
Early projections did not show a high upgrade rate from Win95 to Win98, yet within a year Win98 had surpassed Win95 as a client OS according to the sites watching browser hits.
So yes, they were wrong, but they were wrong in underestimating sales.
Without the creation of new music by artists and then published and promoted by the record companies, pirates would have nothing to ever pirate.
The analogy is essentially flawed in comparing the apple to software or music.
An apple is an apple, while there are various varieties they are essentially unchanged for the past million years or so. I prefer Granny Smith myself, but if I could get a thousand free bushels of McIntosh for free I could learn to survive on them.
This is not the same with books, music, or software. There are millions of varieties of each, and it is the subtle difference between each variety which differentiates them.
It'd be like saying everybody would be happy if they could just have as many copies of the Backstreet Boy's Millenium CD as could ever be made, and this is all you would want for a lifetime.
That's a very dull, boring world. Also, unlike an apple I do not *NEED* music, software or books. Yeah they're nice to have, make my life less dull and boring but that's about the extent of it.
So I think I'll pass on the Backstreet Boys being the only music ever available, even if it is for free.
Oh yeah, like you have a really small number?
Mine is like 10 times smaller than yours! NO WAIT 12 TIMES SMALLER!
So NYAAAAH!!!!! YOU LUSER! HA HA!
Besides, slashdot has been going downhill ever since they let Roblimo start posting. But the most fun you can have on a rollercoaster is when you are going downhill, so here's to enjoying the ride!
GW Bush is not a smart man.
www.gwbush.com
To focus on a window which isn't on top, you need the Powertoys from Microsoft. It's a free download, and has a setting to give you that X11 mouse feel.
Interesting...
That kind of destroys the whole concept of the Remote Installation Service that they have implemented in Windows 2000.
I think your mistaken.
Aren't you taking the same position people are yelling at Mr. Moody about?
The media is fickle. They like to report on new stuff because well that's their job. They also tend to like to help overhype new stuff, because that get's attention.
What you've seen with Linux over the past year or two is the report and overhype. It had been a pretty slow couple of years for them because everybody was waiting to see what would happen with Windows 2000. They needed filler for the pages.
So the media hypes up this thing, whatever it is... An OS, CRM, ERP, ASP, Workflow, Knowledge Management, Network Computers, Java, whatever. It's always a new buzzword for them.
They spend about a year hyping it up and making everybody in IT think it's the next big thing.
Perhaps it is, who knows at this point.
But then some of the IT people start taking the hype seriously and go out and try to implement the idea. Sometimes these implementations cost millions upon millions of dollars.
Then the reports come in, "This shit don't work.", or "What the hell did this gain us?", or maybe "Are we doing this right? This didn't solve the problems you said it would."
At this stage, now the media starts pushing back on the vendors and supporters of the new buzzword. Why isn't this solving everybody's problems like you said it would? Whatever.
In some cases the people take the complaints and reevaluate and reimplement their system to take these complaints into account. They release version 2 which has dramatic changes and improvements.
In the end if the product does not become the Shangra-La it was hyped up to be, and doesn't begin to dominate. Well the media loses interest and moves onto something else.
This happened with OS/2, all of a sudden about the time of the release of NT 4, news on OS/2 died. People had come to realize that it was being heavily overhyped and didn't live up to the realities.
I think the questioning and pushing back on ASP(Application Service Provider) is happening right now in the press.
And I think Linux is starting to hit that phase. Does it live up to the hype, can it survive, is it worth looking at now that the reports are in?
I'll just say, given my past experience watching things which had incredible amounts of user zealotry like Amiga, OS/2, etc. When the press starts raising these questions, you had better be prepared to answer them effectively.
Mail bombing them, and whining a lot doesn't help. That's what us Amiga users did, and all it succeeded in doing was give the impression to the media "Wow if you say anything bad about the Amiga, they'll mail bomb you. Oh hell, actually if you say anything good with any sort of caveat they'll mail bomb you. Hell with that, it ain't worth it." and they shut up. After a while the whiners become the brunt of jokes in the media.
AmigaDOS for many years was the brunt of jokes. OS/2 quickly became this as well, and their ballot box stuffing on the Infoworld product of the year in '96 really didn't help the cause.
So anyway, with Mr. Moody... Be very careful how you respond. The best response might be none at all.
I highly doubt Microsoft has any interest in incorporating Linux code into their own.
And they already ship GNU software with the Resource Kit.
It's too bad you posted anonymously, or we could have continued this in email.
So basically what you are saying is that college degrees are worthless because 9 out of 10 people obtain them as a step to a new career.
A college degree, or a certification is just a piece of paper that says you studied this topic and have proved you gained some knowledge.
Like I said, I have an MCSE. I obtained it of my own volition basically as proof to myself that I knew NT well. Yep the company paid for the tests, but nobody forced me to take them.
How seriously do you want me to take the certification? I take as seriously as it deserves, which is what most MCSEs I know do.
If you want to test my knowledge, go ahead and send me an email.
But Napster provided the mechanism by which that was made possible. They provided the way to transfer the file and hell they are even providing a directory of contents. They are then encouraging people to connect and trade music.
That's a wheee bit different from an ISP or a telephone company.
The argument that Napster isn't an accessory to the crime is a pretty lame copout.
So artists should just shut the hell up and work for free?
That's what you are basically saying. The cost of producing an album is irrelevant, the cost of recording an album is irrelevant. The cost of promotion, advertising, etc. is irrelevant.
They should just give it away for the cost of duplication... i.e. for free.
Seems to me you're the one who needs to realize the truth.
It's certainly not illegal to compete with the recording industry, but...
Napster didn't try to compete by hiring talent, recording music and distributing it. They decided that the way to compete with the music industry was to take the work that the music industry had paid for and give it away for free.
That's not competition, it's theft.
The technical problems with being able to block pirated music isn't the RIAA's concern... that is Napsters. If Napster wants to pretend to be a legitimate business, then they need to put together a system which plays by the rules.
mp3.com has tried to do that. Isn't mp3.com the revolution? Why has everybody forgotten about them?
As to your last point, no other industry goes around blatently stealing other peoples work. Well ok, the Mafia, but no other legitimate industry.
No, because they are completely seperate issues.
I purchased Musicmatch, and I have about 4 gigabytes of songs encoded on my harddrive at work.(*)
The key is, they are all ripped from CD's I purchased and have at home. I did this because I didn't want to take 100 CD's from home and store them at work. i.e. it was convenient
This is the legitimate use for MP3 players, recorders, etc. No different than a tape recorder, or a VCR.
But Napster is a different issue, it doesn't record, it distributes or rather provides for the easy distribution of.
As far as reporting them to Napster... Napster has refused to abide by this. If you weren't paying attention they made a big stink about Metallica and Dr. Dre doing just that.
There were other factors involved with the speed limit.
Anybody who has ever driven a car built in the 1970's compared to one built today will see that it is far safer to be driving at 70mph in a Honda Accord than it ever was in a AMC Pacer.
The tires, handling, brakes, etc. etc. are much more advanced.
So I wouldn't say the law was flawed, but rather it needed adjustment to keep up with technology.
Same with copyright. But we didn't change the speed limit by giving everybody a Ferarri so everybody could do 150 mph down the interstate and ellude the police. We did it by lobbying for change.
You appear to have missed the point, perhaps because you didn't read the RIAA brief.
They make specific mention of this supposed benefit, and they point out correctly that it is irrelevant. The RIAA never asked Napster to advertise for them, they certainly never gave them permission to advertise in the way they have. What the RIAA is arguing is that if this form of theft is not stopped, it will impact financially those companies who are working to provide legitimate business plans because people will expect full copies of music for free.
The GPL has nothing to do with this. The GPL is something you buy into, you have a choice in what you do with your creation.
What Napster is doing, essentially, is saying "Hey wow, there is a whole lot of stuff out there people have created... Let's force them to make it public domain."
The rest of your argument seems to be a rather lame attempt to justify theft to yourself.
Heh. Napster makes Microsoft executives look like Saints.
After reading this RIAA brief in it's entirety, they are pissed, and I would say rightfully so.
It's beyond a point where the music industry is going to be willing to work with Napster. This isn't a questionable offense against the business like mymp3.com, this is blatant abuse.
What Napster is doing is unethical, immoral and easily illegal. Napster knows this, and apparently doesn't care and has said so in it's internal documents.
I would have to predict that Napster is going down, they will be shut down and out of business in six months time.
Another important thing to keep in mind, is that alternatives such as gnutella are just going to make Internet regulation worse. If they become a problem, the music industry will come down on them hard as well. It won't be a namsy pansy court case like this DeCSS thing either, it will be a consorted effort.
And if you think it's difficult to do, all they have to do is lobby for Congressional legislation. Warrants for the arrest and confiscation of computers running napster like software will be next.
Don't think this will happen? You just watch.
Finally a voice of reason.
A task like this does take a great deal of work, as you point out.
I'm always amazed at the number of Linux zealots who throw reality to the wind, shove their head up their asses and believe a Rumormill article about a failed Exchange migration that happened only a month after Microsoft purchased Hotmail.
Actually it's free. Remember hotmail is owned by Microsoft. :)
IBM just recently announced that they will be selling extra CPUs to their current mainframe users for $125k if they only want to run Linux on them.
m l
:)
:)
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-202-2371079.ht
I guess that's quite a bargain, they normally charge twice that much.
Keep in mind that's just for the processor board, you also have to buy the chassis and memory and disk and... oh I'm sure it's a multi million $ bill when you're all done.
Hmm, this wasn't offtopic. The troll everybody was responding to said "and noone likes Windows 2000"