Java works just fine for Operating Systems, just like LISP did before it. It's just that the idea of *needing* assembly/C for OSes is so ingrained that people can't get over it.
running an OS written in java we would need the average machine from five to ten years from now
Bull. In fact, Java OSes have the potential to be *faster* than today's OSes. Why? Because no hardware protection is needed from code. It's all handled in the memory model, making it impossible for GPF/segfaults to occur.
What we should be focusing on is improving the security of native code execution through mecahnisms such as pro-police, systrace, chroot/jails, improvements in memory guards for instance see the recent changes to openbsd for the way it should be done.
Dead. End. Until you can absolutely control the code, someone will always find a way out of your little cage.
No its not hyperbole, look at eclipse it needs (with the jvm) 450MB of ram and is miserably slow to work with, all of other software running on my machine at the same time has a smaller footprint and is much more responsive.
It is hyperbole. Eclipse is a development environment, not a regular desktop app. Comparing footprints there is just silly. I can find you plenty of "native" development environments with very similar footprints.
What needs to happen is the realization that software development cannot be undertaken by the lowest common denomitator, bridge design isn't, java, C#, are not a panacea, they are a bandage for a social problem not a technical one.
As long as you trust the programmer instead of a system that makes the problem impossible, you WILL have security holes. Not because the programmer is lazy (though that doesn't help), but because he's human and makes mistakes.
Are you referring to the bug where the home page turns white (à la about:blank) when you click back to return to it?
No, that's something different. I'm talking about the bug where the left side would overlap with the center text OR the center text would shoot WAY out to the right.
The Java is slow myth is a load of hogwash that opponents of the technology use to justify their stance against it. It's simply not true, and hasn't been true for a very long time. And if you don't believe me, talk toNASA.
it does *not* say "here's what you MUST use in order to use this site" anymore.
Technically, none of the buttons ever did. They just mentioned the browser that the author targetted his development on. Remember, back then straight HTML looked significantly different in each browser. You could actually tell which browser was used in a screenshot just from the HTML rendering!
I hate to say it, but IE's rendering engine was far superior to Netscape's. Making a document look good in IE was easy, whereas tweaking for Netscape could take days. The thing that kept Netscape in the lead was that it was more feature rich. Once IE5 took that away from them, Netscape died a slow death.
Well, those buttons don't say "best viewed in Firefox" or (even worse) "optimised for Firefox"; they just say, in essence, "use Firefox, or at least consider it".
Yes, I'm aware of that. They can't say "optimized for browser XYZ" anymore because all webpages are supposed to target standards, not browsers. But the basic idea is still the same: Here's a button stating which browser I think you should use. Click my button to upgrade.
Seriously, it's not like this is such a bad thing. It's just that we've been here before.:-)
FYI, the problem with AGP vs. PCI Express isn't bandwidth. It's that PCI Express is quickly displacing AGP, making AGP equipment hard to find.
And yes, I do have a "blog". No, I am not your typical blogger. Try reading it sometime. I don't think you'll find a "real" blog there, but something much better.
Then again, why bother with intelligent communication when you can troll and tell people you hate them?
Arguably, if the OS is secure enough, then you should not have problems with programs that can start executing code without permissions.
Eh, it's multi-faceted. The problem is that many of the greatest security threats today are from buffer overflow attacks. (Or heap overflow in this case.) This is frustrating because we've had the technology for more than 20 years to write code that is invulnerable to these sorts of attacks. Unfortunately, the majority of OS and Desktop software has continued to rely on C and C++, making these holes not only possible, but probable.
If the buffer overflow attack were solved once and for all, then attackers would have to move higher up the stack. e.g. Embedded scripts in emails that run with full permission. This sort of attack is why Java has a built-in security manager that can prevent access to secure resources. Should our security problems ever escalate to this level, I'm sure you'll see a lot of similar security managed environments showing up.
*Or* you could just do what I did and build my own system for far less. With nearly all the parts built into the motherboard these days, it's pretty darn easy (and cheap!) to set up a system.
Flagship models should border on unattainable for all but the elite rich. The care put into the flagship model then reflects on the rest of a company's line and modify's the customer's opinion of the company. Unfortunately, I don't see anything about this particular machine that's so amazing other than the fact that it has a lot of hardware in it. Well, that and the fact that they picked my favorite board.;-) But putting that aside, there simply isn't anything "unattainable" about this system other than the high price tag slapped on it. Especially since I chose my "favorite board" because it *is* highly affordable despite its array of powerful features.
To carry the car analogy a little further, this is the very definition of an unattainable car.:-)
That's not quite correct. The nForce4 chipset can support Dolby Digital *if* the source program supports it. So if you're playing a dolby digital DVD, you'll get dolby digital output. On the other hand, if you're playing Hunt The Whumpus (now with sound!) then it will likely fall back to stereo. (Of course, maybe the author encoded dolby digital sound for the Whumpus? That would be kind of cool.);-)
No, no contradiction. A board is a far more expensive acquisition than a video card. Purchasing a video card means that *one* component in the system changes. Purchasing a new motherboard means that the board and the CPU need to change at a minimum. Likely, you'll also need to change out the memory and (as I said) the video card because it doesn't support PCI Express.
on the other you state that a board bought five years ago is still good today.
Actually, I was just making the point that the video busses don't change as often as you suggest. A five year old motherboard is likely going to be in need of retiring. But my point is that if you purchased AGP 2x back then, you would have been future proofed for that entire five year period. Purchasing AGP now means no such guarantee. Just like how PCI video cards became hard to come by after AGP appeared, AGP has already become hard to come by. That's why (IMHO) it's not a good idea to get an AGP board right now.:-)
Ironically, I would argue around the original Sound Blaster days the creative product was not the best,
Indeed. Turtle Beach was where it was at for serious musical work. IIRC, they were the first ones to add wavetable synthesis to their cards for serious MIDI work.
The only reason why everyone used Creative Sound Blasters were:
1. They were cheap 2. They could do digital effects in addition to FM synthesis (a step up from Adlib) 3. They were the "standard" used by all video games. Good luck getting Apogee shareware to recognize a Turtle Beach.
Creative really didn't manage a superior product until the Awe32. The Awe32 was so successful (again, because it was cheaper than many of the other high-end cards) that it pretty much wiped out the rest of the market. That was also about the time that I stopped caring about which sound card I used. I still have an Awe32 in the PIII I just retired.:-)
There a many reasons not to go with PCI Express, including having an already perfectly good working AGP or PCI card.
Well, that's the theory anyway. The problem is that if you're investing in a board you want to keep for awhile, you are going to run into problems when you want to upgrade your video card. As a result, he may find himself having to replace his entire Motherboard, CPU, and memory architecture in a year or two just to upgrade his video card. The result is that his upgrade now is false economy.
Standards come and go so fast that what you buy today is already obselote
That's not completely true. As long as you purchased a board with AGP 2x or higher, an AGP board purchased 5 years ago should still work fine with an AGP video card today. The performance characteristics are a bit different with a slower bus, but it still works. PCI Express, on the other hand, is a completely new architecture on par with going from ISA to PCI. Anyone purchasing a board right now would be wise to go with PCIe as it's likely that AGP and traditional PCI support will eventually fade out.
Of course, he did say that he just wants to play Scorched Earth 3D. So feel free to ignore me.:-)
FYI, the NVidia 6600 is a pretty good card and only costs about $135.00. As for the other stuff, my point was that PCI Express systems have backward compatibility with older PCI cards. I certainly have no difficulties with my Leadtek TV Card on the A8N-E board I'm currently using.
Anyway, sorry if I'm being a little pushy. I just like to see people future proof their systems whenever possible. It kept my last machine going strong for nearly five years. I'd probably still be using it if some of the hardware wasn't failing.:-)
Not to be rude... but your lack of knowledge about computer hardware makes your suggestions moot.
Nice. I hate to break it to you, but some of us do not consider the sound to be that important of a component. For those of us who aren't audiophiles, Dobly 5.1 using built-in sound is more than enough. (And the nForce4 chipset is no slouch like the sound installed on the Intel boards.) However, I do realize that there are audiophiles out there who *do* care. That's why I asked about the extra sound card.
As for my other suggestions, the components I recommended are some of the best tradeoffs between price and performance in my experience. Or as you say, "the components aren't bad". I could suggest that everyone build a $3000 machine + $3000 super-hires television. But does everyone need that? No! They'd much rather have a complete home entertainment system + PC for around $2000 - $2500. They simply don't have the extra budget for the higher end components.
Those that know they want better components are not likely to take my suggestions because they already know what they want. That's fine. My suggestions are only a guideline for building a high-quality system for a reasonable price. My apologies for not being an "uber-leet" audiophile such as yourself.
FYI, the A8N board has a couple different hardware RAID configurations built in. If you don't like the RAID 0, you can reconfigure. Here's a list I pulled from here:
NVRAID: RAID0, RAID1, RAID 0+1 and JBOD span cross SATA and PATA.
Cancelled the order quick and got one with the cruddy old AGP.
*/me Jaw Drops
You... went... with an AGP board?! You do realize that nearly all video cards are now PCI Express? FYI, PCI Express is not the same thing as SLI. It's a new standard that has TWICE the bandwidth of AGP. You could have gone for a board like the A8N-E board that has PCI Express but no SLI at a good price.
*/me Jaw Drops Again
I just wanted a new mobo and to keep using all the components I'd already spent about $1,000 on and was intent on still using.
Okay, I can understand if you still want to use your old video card. But all your other stuff should still work fine in a PCI Express machine. I'm curious, why upgrade your board/CPU if you're not willing to go with the latest video bus technology?
I thought that's what the built-in RealTek ALC850 chip was supposed to do?
Speaking of which, DO NOT install the nForce drivers under Linux! They are WAY out of date and will just screw stuff up. Just get the latest version of non-Kernel ALSA and you should be fine. The ethernet is already supported.
The GeForce drivers should work without a hitch, though.
Holy CRAP that's expensive! And that's (apparently) without the monitor! If I may suggest, you should be able to build the same machine for about half the price, perhaps a bit more.
Asus A8N-SLI Premium nForce4
Sweet! They chose my favorite board! I have the A8N-E board (same thing, but only one Vid card) and I must say that it is a VERY nice board. Practically everything you could ever want is built in. NForce4 chipset, Gigabit ethernet, PCI Express, 8 channel audio, 10 USB ports, hardware firewall, hardware RAID support, 4 SATA-300 (aka SATA-II) connectors, IDE support, nearly all AMD64 chips supported, etc. I haven't found a better board, especially in that price range!
Can anyone explain what is up with this? The board comes with 8 channel sound built in. What do you need a separate sound card for? Is the sound quality really that much better?
BTW, if you get the A8N board, don't get the ASUS Star ICE. I've got one of those things and I'm now using it as a desk ornament. I just wanted an extra fan to keep things cool. I had no idea that I'd get a friggin' JET ENGINE! (I'm not kidding either. This thing can barely fit in the case when installed.) It gets great comments from my coworkers though. "What the HELL is that!?";-)
If you don't believe me on its size (no one ever does) just look at this pic.
Surely thats a bug. We can't edit comments posted.
No bug. It's not a button, it's the subtitle of the "Post Comment" page. It's referring to the area where you "edit" the "comment" your about to post. See? Makes perfect sense.:-)
Not to be confused with the Google File System. A lot of people confuse them (same TLA), so it's important that sysadmins are clear that they are very different. If you install G[lobal]FS, you're getting something that has different goals in distributing the data than those of the Google servers. Google's FS has only a modicum of documentation, and no public implementation available. If you want to replicate GoogleFS, you'll have to guess as to the parts that their documentation doesn't cover.
Slashdot Mirror
Except of course that java is completely insuitable for writing an operating system in,
Really? What makes you say that?
Java works just fine for Operating Systems, just like LISP did before it. It's just that the idea of *needing* assembly/C for OSes is so ingrained that people can't get over it.
running an OS written in java we would need the average machine from five to ten years from now
Bull. In fact, Java OSes have the potential to be *faster* than today's OSes. Why? Because no hardware protection is needed from code. It's all handled in the memory model, making it impossible for GPF/segfaults to occur.
What we should be focusing on is improving the security of native code execution through mecahnisms such as pro-police, systrace, chroot/jails, improvements in memory guards for instance see the recent changes to openbsd for the way it should be done.
Dead. End. Until you can absolutely control the code, someone will always find a way out of your little cage.
No its not hyperbole, look at eclipse it needs (with the jvm) 450MB of ram and is miserably slow to work with, all of other software running on my machine at the same time has a smaller footprint and is much more responsive.
It is hyperbole. Eclipse is a development environment, not a regular desktop app. Comparing footprints there is just silly. I can find you plenty of "native" development environments with very similar footprints.
What needs to happen is the realization that software development cannot be undertaken by the lowest common denomitator, bridge design isn't, java, C#, are not a panacea, they are a bandage for a social problem not a technical one.
As long as you trust the programmer instead of a system that makes the problem impossible, you WILL have security holes. Not because the programmer is lazy (though that doesn't help), but because he's human and makes mistakes.
Are you referring to the bug where the home page turns white (à la about:blank) when you click back to return to it?
No, that's something different. I'm talking about the bug where the left side would overlap with the center text OR the center text would shoot WAY out to the right.
Java code runs slow enough to make it impractical for desktop apps.
Utter nonsense. Do you use Azureus? Perhaps you've played WURM Online? Do you need to clean up your hard drive?
The Java is slow myth is a load of hogwash that opponents of the technology use to justify their stance against it. It's simply not true, and hasn't been true for a very long time. And if you don't believe me, talk to NASA.
it does *not* say "here's what you MUST use in order to use this site" anymore.
Technically, none of the buttons ever did. They just mentioned the browser that the author targetted his development on. Remember, back then straight HTML looked significantly different in each browser. You could actually tell which browser was used in a screenshot just from the HTML rendering!
I hate to say it, but IE's rendering engine was far superior to Netscape's. Making a document look good in IE was easy, whereas tweaking for Netscape could take days. The thing that kept Netscape in the lead was that it was more feature rich. Once IE5 took that away from them, Netscape died a slow death.
Well, those buttons don't say "best viewed in Firefox" or (even worse) "optimised for Firefox"; they just say, in essence, "use Firefox, or at least consider it".
:-)
Yes, I'm aware of that. They can't say "optimized for browser XYZ" anymore because all webpages are supposed to target standards, not browsers. But the basic idea is still the same: Here's a button stating which browser I think you should use. Click my button to upgrade.
Seriously, it's not like this is such a bad thing. It's just that we've been here before.
I dunno. I should try sometime. :-P
Troll much, do we?
FYI, the problem with AGP vs. PCI Express isn't bandwidth. It's that PCI Express is quickly displacing AGP, making AGP equipment hard to find.
And yes, I do have a "blog". No, I am not your typical blogger. Try reading it sometime. I don't think you'll find a "real" blog there, but something much better.
Then again, why bother with intelligent communication when you can troll and tell people you hate them?
The browser feud is really becoming a pointless exercise in arguing.
Welcome back to 1997. Shall we start using little buttons that say, "Best Viewed in FireFox" or "Best Viewed in Internet Explorer?"
On second thought, never mind.
Secure OS or not, many (most?) browser vulnerabilities are at the application level.
:-)
I don't know about that. How many cross-browser vulnerabilities are caused by OS level URL handlers?
Just something to think about.
Arguably, if the OS is secure enough, then you should not have problems with programs that can start executing code without permissions.
Eh, it's multi-faceted. The problem is that many of the greatest security threats today are from buffer overflow attacks. (Or heap overflow in this case.) This is frustrating because we've had the technology for more than 20 years to write code that is invulnerable to these sorts of attacks. Unfortunately, the majority of OS and Desktop software has continued to rely on C and C++, making these holes not only possible, but probable.
If the buffer overflow attack were solved once and for all, then attackers would have to move higher up the stack. e.g. Embedded scripts in emails that run with full permission. This sort of attack is why Java has a built-in security manager that can prevent access to secure resources. Should our security problems ever escalate to this level, I'm sure you'll see a lot of similar security managed environments showing up.
*Or* you could just do what I did and build my own system for far less. With nearly all the parts built into the motherboard these days, it's pretty darn easy (and cheap!) to set up a system.
;-) But putting that aside, there simply isn't anything "unattainable" about this system other than the high price tag slapped on it. Especially since I chose my "favorite board" because it *is* highly affordable despite its array of powerful features.
:-)
Flagship models should border on unattainable for all but the elite rich. The care put into the flagship model then reflects on the rest of a company's line and modify's the customer's opinion of the company. Unfortunately, I don't see anything about this particular machine that's so amazing other than the fact that it has a lot of hardware in it. Well, that and the fact that they picked my favorite board.
To carry the car analogy a little further, this is the very definition of an unattainable car.
That's not quite correct. The nForce4 chipset can support Dolby Digital *if* the source program supports it. So if you're playing a dolby digital DVD, you'll get dolby digital output. On the other hand, if you're playing Hunt The Whumpus (now with sound!) then it will likely fall back to stereo. (Of course, maybe the author encoded dolby digital sound for the Whumpus? That would be kind of cool.) ;-)
More Info
No, no contradiction. A board is a far more expensive acquisition than a video card. Purchasing a video card means that *one* component in the system changes. Purchasing a new motherboard means that the board and the CPU need to change at a minimum. Likely, you'll also need to change out the memory and (as I said) the video card because it doesn't support PCI Express.
:-)
on the other you state that a board bought five years ago is still good today.
Actually, I was just making the point that the video busses don't change as often as you suggest. A five year old motherboard is likely going to be in need of retiring. But my point is that if you purchased AGP 2x back then, you would have been future proofed for that entire five year period. Purchasing AGP now means no such guarantee. Just like how PCI video cards became hard to come by after AGP appeared, AGP has already become hard to come by. That's why (IMHO) it's not a good idea to get an AGP board right now.
Ironically, I would argue around the original Sound Blaster days the creative product was not the best,
:-)
Indeed. Turtle Beach was where it was at for serious musical work. IIRC, they were the first ones to add wavetable synthesis to their cards for serious MIDI work.
The only reason why everyone used Creative Sound Blasters were:
1. They were cheap
2. They could do digital effects in addition to FM synthesis (a step up from Adlib)
3. They were the "standard" used by all video games. Good luck getting Apogee shareware to recognize a Turtle Beach.
Creative really didn't manage a superior product until the Awe32. The Awe32 was so successful (again, because it was cheaper than many of the other high-end cards) that it pretty much wiped out the rest of the market. That was also about the time that I stopped caring about which sound card I used. I still have an Awe32 in the PIII I just retired.
There a many reasons not to go with PCI Express, including having an already perfectly good working AGP or PCI card.
:-)
Well, that's the theory anyway. The problem is that if you're investing in a board you want to keep for awhile, you are going to run into problems when you want to upgrade your video card. As a result, he may find himself having to replace his entire Motherboard, CPU, and memory architecture in a year or two just to upgrade his video card. The result is that his upgrade now is false economy.
Standards come and go so fast that what you buy today is already obselote
That's not completely true. As long as you purchased a board with AGP 2x or higher, an AGP board purchased 5 years ago should still work fine with an AGP video card today. The performance characteristics are a bit different with a slower bus, but it still works. PCI Express, on the other hand, is a completely new architecture on par with going from ISA to PCI. Anyone purchasing a board right now would be wise to go with PCIe as it's likely that AGP and traditional PCI support will eventually fade out.
Of course, he did say that he just wants to play Scorched Earth 3D. So feel free to ignore me.
Thank you. Can someone give this fellow some mod points? :-)
FYI, the NVidia 6600 is a pretty good card and only costs about $135.00. As for the other stuff, my point was that PCI Express systems have backward compatibility with older PCI cards. I certainly have no difficulties with my Leadtek TV Card on the A8N-E board I'm currently using.
:-)
Anyway, sorry if I'm being a little pushy. I just like to see people future proof their systems whenever possible. It kept my last machine going strong for nearly five years. I'd probably still be using it if some of the hardware wasn't failing.
Not to be rude... but your lack of knowledge about computer hardware makes your suggestions moot.
Nice. I hate to break it to you, but some of us do not consider the sound to be that important of a component. For those of us who aren't audiophiles, Dobly 5.1 using built-in sound is more than enough. (And the nForce4 chipset is no slouch like the sound installed on the Intel boards.) However, I do realize that there are audiophiles out there who *do* care. That's why I asked about the extra sound card.
As for my other suggestions, the components I recommended are some of the best tradeoffs between price and performance in my experience. Or as you say, "the components aren't bad". I could suggest that everyone build a $3000 machine + $3000 super-hires television. But does everyone need that? No! They'd much rather have a complete home entertainment system + PC for around $2000 - $2500. They simply don't have the extra budget for the higher end components.
Those that know they want better components are not likely to take my suggestions because they already know what they want. That's fine. My suggestions are only a guideline for building a high-quality system for a reasonable price. My apologies for not being an "uber-leet" audiophile such as yourself.
FYI, the A8N board has a couple different hardware RAID configurations built in. If you don't like the RAID 0, you can reconfigure. Here's a list I pulled from here:
NVRAID: RAID0, RAID1, RAID 0+1 and JBOD span cross SATA and PATA.
Cancelled the order quick and got one with the cruddy old AGP.
/me Jaw Drops
/me Jaw Drops Again
*
You... went... with an AGP board?! You do realize that nearly all video cards are now PCI Express? FYI, PCI Express is not the same thing as SLI. It's a new standard that has TWICE the bandwidth of AGP. You could have gone for a board like the A8N-E board that has PCI Express but no SLI at a good price.
*
I just wanted a new mobo and to keep using all the components I'd already spent about $1,000 on and was intent on still using.
Okay, I can understand if you still want to use your old video card. But all your other stuff should still work fine in a PCI Express machine. I'm curious, why upgrade your board/CPU if you're not willing to go with the latest video bus technology?
I thought that's what the built-in RealTek ALC850 chip was supposed to do?
Speaking of which, DO NOT install the nForce drivers under Linux! They are WAY out of date and will just screw stuff up. Just get the latest version of non-Kernel ALSA and you should be fine. The ethernet is already supported.
The GeForce drivers should work without a hitch, though.
Base Price: $4,589.00
;-)
Holy CRAP that's expensive! And that's (apparently) without the monitor! If I may suggest, you should be able to build the same machine for about half the price, perhaps a bit more.
Asus A8N-SLI Premium nForce4
Sweet! They chose my favorite board! I have the A8N-E board (same thing, but only one Vid card) and I must say that it is a VERY nice board. Practically everything you could ever want is built in. NForce4 chipset, Gigabit ethernet, PCI Express, 8 channel audio, 10 USB ports, hardware firewall, hardware RAID support, 4 SATA-300 (aka SATA-II) connectors, IDE support, nearly all AMD64 chips supported, etc. I haven't found a better board, especially in that price range!
Sound Card: Creative Labs Audigy 2 ZS Platinum INT Drive Sound
Can anyone explain what is up with this? The board comes with 8 channel sound built in. What do you need a separate sound card for? Is the sound quality really that much better?
BTW, if you get the A8N board, don't get the ASUS Star ICE. I've got one of those things and I'm now using it as a desk ornament. I just wanted an extra fan to keep things cool. I had no idea that I'd get a friggin' JET ENGINE! (I'm not kidding either. This thing can barely fit in the case when installed.) It gets great comments from my coworkers though. "What the HELL is that!?"
If you don't believe me on its size (no one ever does) just look at this pic.
"Edit Comment"
:-)
Surely thats a bug. We can't edit comments posted.
No bug. It's not a button, it's the subtitle of the "Post Comment" page. It's referring to the area where you "edit" the "comment" your about to post. See? Makes perfect sense.
What's this Kudos you're talking about ?
It's a tasty Candy Bar. Mmmm. Choclate.
Not to be confused with the Google File System. A lot of people confuse them (same TLA), so it's important that sysadmins are clear that they are very different. If you install G[lobal]FS, you're getting something that has different goals in distributing the data than those of the Google servers. Google's FS has only a modicum of documentation, and no public implementation available. If you want to replicate GoogleFS, you'll have to guess as to the parts that their documentation doesn't cover.
:-)
Now back to your regularly scheduled program.