Indeed it is. I'm asking where all the space went. My only guess is that it was wasted in true RedHat tradition. However, if you have a better answer PLEASE tell me. The size of Linux distros is becoming astronomical, and I can't figure out why. Sure, there are commercial OSes on 2 CDs, but that's one CD less, plus they have 10-100x the level of useful software packed on them.
> No. Real masters use FreeBSD, Solaris and other real operating platforms.
Dude, your heart's in the right place, but you need to work on your language. Explicitly insulting people is not usually appreciated, and tends to get you the -1 Troll you've been modded to. Watch what happens when we remove your ending insults:
No. Real masters use FreeBSD, Solaris and other real operating platforms.
Linux is a kiddie OS for the kids to pretend they can use UNIX. Those getting paid to provide UNIX services to clients and companies continue to get paid and watch these kids.
> there is a boot.iso image that is very very small.
This is the way BSD does it, and I like the idea a lot. Do you have a link to this ISO? I checked their download site, and no boot.iso was listed. Here's what I see:
I have no problem with extra software CDs. All I want tho, is the ability to download the core system without having to juggle 3 CDs! If I then want to install extra software, I'll go get the third CD. Do you have *any* idea how long it takes to download 3 CDs? Even on the OC3 at work, we're still talking an entire day.
Oh, and OS X packs a lot of bundled stuff (like the X11 server) that could be broken out. The only reason they aren't is that OS X is only distributed on CD. If it was distributed over the 'net, you can bet it would be down to 2 core CDs. Besides, OS X still has a lot more useful stuff than Fedora.
I actually have a folder of Solaris 8 CDs. Only two of them are core system CDs, and they are PACKED with a *lot* more stuff than Fedora. Everything else is extra software, like GNU utilities or the (useless) CD installer. If Solaris can do it in two, why does Fedora take 3?
And the most amazing feature of Fedora? The fact that it's bigger than our Sun! I mean, what the *7#$ is on those 3 CDs?! Oh wait, let me guess. In true RedHat fashion, we have 3 FTP server, 7 email servers, 300 email readers, 20 instant messenger, 5 web browser, 3 versions of xBill, several hundred programs that sound like they do something interesting but don't, and 1 kitchen sink.
I mean really, what ever happened to "core system" vs. "extra software"?
> This is sematics. Im physically able to dig ditches, but > that doesnt make me a ditch digger.
It does if you actually do dig ditches.
> Ya, Ive been to a library lately. The city provides tech > support for them. Im cant make a statement regarding > how every jerkwater town does it, but they have > professionals doing it where *I* live.
*sigh* Your definition of "jerkwater" encompasses 99% of the US. Only the big libraries downtown have the kind of money you're referring to. If you go out as far as the suburbs (e.g. Elgin or St. Charles) you'll note that they don't have "IT staff", Go as far as to get away from the city entirely, and you'll start seeing a lot of libraries that only exist due to Rockafeller's money back in the day. Even many of the libraries with the money to build, still don't have the money to have a full time IT staff.
> See, Windows has this little thing called a grapical user > interface... its really neat, it displays little icons and > everything! And in it, Windows has this thing which > shows all the users, and you can even create users, too! > AND, get this, you can click a different area, and it can > sort the users into GROUPS!! WOW!!! And it does it all > with little icons and stuff, in one interface!!!! ISNT THAT > AMAZING?!?!?!?!?!?!
Heh. Ok, I admit it, I set you up on this one. I hate to break it to you, but Unix has had an integrated GUI for far longer than PCs. Back when Gates was still screwing around trying to make Windows 2.0 work, the Unix guys had the likes of NeWS, and later OpenWindows. Today, Solaris even comes with a Java based tool to manage ALL machines, including Solaris, Windows, routers, firewalls, etc. MMC doesn't hold a candle to this.
But you know what? Unix Admins *still* try to avoid the GUI tools. The plain and simple fact is that they can write a script to make network and machine changes in a fraction of the time it would take to go clicking through a GUI. I've worked at places that have used Unix, and I've worked at places that have used Windows. I was even an admin myself back in the day. The plain and simple fact is that the Windows Admins spend more late hours in the office, have to troubleshoot more strange problems, and generally have to work harder just to accomplish the same amount of work as a Unix admin. That's the truth. Deal with it.
> Oh, thats right. That software just wrote and debugged, > then packaged and shipped itself! MS is selling > something which didnt cost them any money or effort to > create... what a fuckin scam!
It is a scam. There is zero impact on Microsoft's bottom line by making the donation. Microsoft already earned money off the PC when it was purchased. Usually, they get to double-dip by getting companies to pay for Windows a second time. Instead, Microsoft gets to double-dip the government by donating "millions of dollars of software" which does not cost them anything to deliver. Then they file with the government for a tax break equal to an amount that very few people ever pay for the software. In this way, Microsoft has just made more money off of the government than they would have made off of a sale.
> Thats funny, you were spouting "everything but > Windows". I dont personally think Win is the be-all and > end-all of OS's, but you must sure want me to.
Was I? Where? You asked why Microsoft was different from other companies. I answered. I then stated that if you didn't want an answer, I could go back to my Solaris/OS X/FreeBSD/Win2000... oops! Did I just mention Windows? The HORROR!
> No, but I work all over downtown. LaSalle, State, > Michigan, etc. The closest Ive been to Wacker was Fox > Sports, which is next to the Merchandise Mart.
Drats. And here I thought I might know you. BTW, Wacker wraps around, so that Michigan is probably the closest you've ever been. Oh well, I suppose I could always invite you out for a drink to argue the finer points of computing.:-)
> I *could* be an administrator, but I would rather not take the pay cut.
No, you *are* an administrator. As in, "you are a driver because you can drive".
> Then I would recommend they not be put in charge of > servers.
What servers? Been to a library lately? They have a couple of PCs all hooked up to a hub or switch which in turn is hooked up to a Cisco router for their VPN. Any and all library servers are usually handled at a state level. The desktops are for people to do research on.
> I dont ask my librarian fix my car, either.
So, in your company does everyone have their own personal admin to flush the toilet for them? Because, you know, it's not like anyone would ever expect a computer to be constructed so that it can perform its function without an admin.
> It doesnt take an expensive consultant (or one at all) to > install VirusScan, Ad-Aware, and set up logins with > restricted rights.
It *does* when you can't afford to pay for a full time IT person. Only Universities and Colleges can afford such a staff. Public schools use an outsourced company who agrees to be on call for some small fee. Every time they call someone from that company to come out, they pay an hourly rate.
> In fact, I would say that last part is > probably a ton easier under Win2k/XP than it is in ANY > other operating system.
Riiigghhhttt. You know, they do have these thing-a-majigs called "Unix Machines". These "Unix" thing-a-majigs are designed so that multiple people can use the system. Each person uses a cute little mini-computer called a "terminal". These "terminals" range from simple keyboard and text machines, to fully graphical with mouse and sound. Now you see, these "Unix Machines" are designed around this multi-user concept. As a result, when a user is added to the system, they are immediately given only enough privileges to work in their own world. To do more stuff, permissions have to be added.
Contrast that to the Windows world where permissions must be subtracted or the user would be able to run amok.
> I wanted someone to honestly think about it, and realize > they are acting with hypocritical bias.
Let me get this straight. You want people to "think about it", then instantly agree with you, because... well... you know... umm... you invented the Internet! Yeah! That's it! Oh wait, Al Gore did that. Damn.
> Instead, I get some braggart trying to justify lies.
Lies? Silly me. I guess that Microsoft really does spend more money on their donations than CD duplication fees. Sun and Apple are figments of my imagination too. Mein got! All Hail Microsoft!
> > and I'll go back to working on my Solaris/OS X/FreeBSD/ > > Win2000 boxes creating next-gen software > > You go, girl!
Damn straight!
> Im saying that people shouldnt spread lies about > something of which they are unqualified to speak on. I > wasnt pointing it at you, specifically, but maybe I hit a > little to close to home for ya!
Hmm... you must be new here. I guess you've never heard the "insensitive clod" joke. And for the record, I don't like Linux. There are far too many systems out there that function far better to spend all my time thinking that it's "the one true OS" like you seem to think about Windows.
> I find that when most people around here cant find a > justification for their anti-MS FUD, they usually assume > the person is getting paid by MS. Nice try.
Hmm...
No sense of humor? Check Microsoft lover? Check Making a fool of yourself in public?
...
PRICELESS
BTW, you wouldn't happen to work in Chicago, would you? On Wacker drive maybe?
> It seems people are moving away from 4.x so it's good I upgraded
Well, when you think about the fact that Netscape 4.x is over 6 years old (I remember when it came out back in '97!) and the fact that the code base goes back another couple of years, it's not really a surprise that it's no longer supported. That's some OLD software!:-)
> Mozilla's not supported on solaris 7 so I installed > netscape 7.0 which seems to be working, even if a little > slow.
Well, if the hardware matches the OS version, I'd say you're doing pretty well. Gotta love Unix machines. There's no such thing as "out of date", simply "slow" and "fast".:-)
> I am able to see your site as presented though
Excellent! Sorry it doesn't work in Netscape 4.0, but when faced with the choice of using modern CSS to develop a nice looking site, or creating a less attractive site that adds functionality for 0.5% of all users (that's about 0.1% of my users), I decided on the former. The funny part is that it's a really stupid bug in NS4. I'm using special rollover links that produce a shaded box over the link. To support this correctly, netscape can do one of two things:
1. Support recoloring of CSS areas 2. Ignore CSS that it doesn't implement
Instead, it goes for option #3:
3. Screw up the entire render job, turn the screen black, and make sure that no one can click on anything. Bonus points if the browser locks up!
WinXP has to be the *worst* POS that Microsoft has ever produced. The new layout is confusing to new and experienced users alike. Every admin I know has changed the interface style to the Classic Win2000 feel. Less advanced users are usually stuck (as they don't know *how* to change the interface) and end up spending hours wandering around their system, looking for the simplest things.
Oh, and have you ever tried to install software on Mac OS X vs. Windows?
Mac: Double Click on DMG file, drag application to wherever you want to put it.
Windows: Run the installer, choose an installation directory that (hopefully) no one will mess with, give the user a bunch of weird install options that they don't understand, or choose incorrectly, then make the user wait while you spew files across the drive and add a voodoo curse to their system registry. Then say "Done" and helpfully run the program once without giving the user any clue how they can run it a second time.
Should I mention uninstalls? Heh, heh, heh...
Mac: Drag the application to the trash can. Empty said trash at your leisure.
Windows: Click on Start, go to settings, select "Control Panel". Double click on "Add/Remove software". Make user scroll through a very long list of items that keep changing (the system updates icons and info on the fly) just to find the application they want to get rid of. Make user click "Remove", whereby they are often presented with confusing options and prompts for keeping DLLs that they know nothing about. ("APP176beSE.dll is no longer in use. Would you like to delete it? Warning:Your system may break if you do so!") After the user navigates all this confusion, they are then required to surf their file system and delete whatever extra files/directories the uninstaller didn't take care of.
That being said, most people don't need to do many installs/uninstalls on Windows, so one might argue that Windows 2000 can be as usable as a Mac. A fair enough argument. However, to argue that XP's new layout is easy to use for ANYTHING... well...
> And he bases his opinion on what, exactly? I can > administrate hundreds of Win2k servers and clients from > a remote site.
And you are an administrator. A teacher or librarian generally has very little knowledge of computer administration. If it can't be solved by a simple reboot, they have to turn the computer off, tell the kids "sorry, no more Oregon Trail today", and call in a very expensive consultant to remove the virus/spyware/configuration change that some kid accidentally added/changed.
> m just tired of hearing no-nothings bash MS for things > they know nothing about. Just because you have your > overclocked crappy Packard-Bell running Lunix in your > dorm room doesnt mean you know anything about > networking or administration.
Look, you asked a question, I answered. If you didn't *actually* want an answer, you should have said so and I'll go back to working on my Solaris/OS X/FreeBSD/Win2000 boxes creating next-gen software.
> I dont make claims about what Linux can and cant do, > because Im not a Linux expert. Therefore, I dont think > you (or most people here) are qualified to tell other > people what Windows can and cant do.
WTF does Linux have to do with jack shit? I don't even like Linux, you insensitive clod!
> Thats what I base my "dumbest and nonsense filled" comment on, and I stand by it.
Translation: "I'm very good at sticking my foot in my mouth, then pretending that I didn't." Balmer? Is that you?
You're welcome.:-) Here's a link to Sun's wild and wooly world of Desktop software. They even have a very nice GNOME distribution, just in case you're one of those people who doesn't like CDE. (Who doesn't like CDE?):-)
I'm glad to see that *someone* has their head on their shoulders when it comes to Atkins. Now don't get me wrong. If the psychological encouragement that Atkins brings is the only thing that's going to make you loose weight, then by all means. Just PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE get on a balanced, nutritious diet as soon as possible. At the very least, take supplements to counter any nutrient deficiencies.
> Thats about the dumbest, most non-sense filled explaination Ive heard.
Is it really? Think about it. There's a real hardware cost to Sun and Apple when making these donations. Sure, they're hoping to get kids to like their stuff, but in a serious business (or in the case of Apple, home) environment where it's needed. Tax breaks *offset* the cost of such donations.
In the case of Microsoft, they give "Millions of dollars worth of software" which translates to "$500 in CD duplication costs for millions of dollars in tax breaks".
At the same time, Solaris is a Unix that has been traditionally used for teaching OS design. There are even special bootloaders that allow a guest OS under Solaris. Macintosh has a wide variety of educational products available, plus an interface that is easy for teachers to administrate in a school environment. Microsoft's policy is "You don't need to know anything. Just keep coding in Visual Studio 6. You're feeling veeerrryyy sleepy. Oh, and buy VS6 when you leave college, because it can't be used for non-educational use. Fscking pirates."
Dude, I've got an Ultra 10 in front of me. It runs the officially supported Netscape 7 (SUNWns6b) and Mozilla 1.x (SUNWmoz). IIRC, Opera is available for it as well. And if you like pain and anguish, even Internet Exploder runs on it! (Tried that once on an Ultra 5. Damn Microsoft software screwed up my CDE desktop profile.)
The basic point is that there's no reason why you should still be using Netscape 4.x on Solaris. If your admin won't install something better, install it in your home directory. Take control of your profile man! If enough people run a better browser, eventually the admin will get tired of resources being used up by multiple copies and will install it as root for you!:-)
> I went there from your link. That black on black text and > dark blue text on black makes is especially easy to read.
What in the world are you talking about? The only link I posted has a white background with blue text. Perhaps you are using a non-compliant browser (Netscape 3.0 perhaps)?
> I thought "superliminal" that was when someone flashes messages on a screen too fast for you to read
Uh, that would be "subliminal". "Superluminal" literally mean "exceeds" (super) "light" (Lumen, commonly used as measurement of light. Root of "luminous" and "luminal".)
Slashdot Mirror
> Your ignorance is showing.
Indeed it is. I'm asking where all the space went. My only guess is that it was wasted in true RedHat tradition. However, if you have a better answer PLEASE tell me. The size of Linux distros is becoming astronomical, and I can't figure out why. Sure, there are commercial OSes on 2 CDs, but that's one CD less, plus they have 10-100x the level of useful software packed on them.
> No. Real masters use FreeBSD, Solaris and other real operating platforms.
Dude, your heart's in the right place, but you need to work on your language. Explicitly insulting people is not usually appreciated, and tends to get you the -1 Troll you've been modded to. Watch what happens when we remove your ending insults:
No. Real masters use FreeBSD, Solaris and other real operating platforms.
Linux is a kiddie OS for the kids to pretend they can use UNIX. Those getting paid to provide UNIX services to clients and companies continue to get paid and watch these kids.
That would have gotten a +5 Insightful.
> there is a boot.iso image that is very very small.
This is the way BSD does it, and I like the idea a lot. Do you have a link to this ISO? I checked their download site, and no boot.iso was listed. Here's what I see:
Parent Directory 04-Nov-2003 11:49 -
MD5SUM 04-Nov-2003 12:00 1k
yarrow-SRPMS-disc1.iso 04-Nov-2003 11:39 610M
yarrow-SRPMS-disc2.iso 04-Nov-2003 11:39 610M
yarrow-SRPMS-disc3.iso 04-Nov-2003 11:38 610M
yarrow-i386-disc1.iso 04-Nov-2003 11:38 630M
yarrow-i386-disc2.iso 04-Nov-2003 11:38 637M
yarrow-i386-disc3.iso 04-Nov-2003 11:38 616M
I have no problem with extra software CDs. All I want tho, is the ability to download the core system without having to juggle 3 CDs! If I then want to install extra software, I'll go get the third CD. Do you have *any* idea how long it takes to download 3 CDs? Even on the OC3 at work, we're still talking an entire day.
Oh, and OS X packs a lot of bundled stuff (like the X11 server) that could be broken out. The only reason they aren't is that OS X is only distributed on CD. If it was distributed over the 'net, you can bet it would be down to 2 core CDs. Besides, OS X still has a lot more useful stuff than Fedora.
I actually have a folder of Solaris 8 CDs. Only two of them are core system CDs, and they are PACKED with a *lot* more stuff than Fedora. Everything else is extra software, like GNU utilities or the (useless) CD installer. If Solaris can do it in two, why does Fedora take 3?
And the most amazing feature of Fedora? The fact that it's bigger than our Sun! I mean, what the *7#$ is on those 3 CDs?! Oh wait, let me guess. In true RedHat fashion, we have 3 FTP server, 7 email servers, 300 email readers, 20 instant messenger, 5 web browser, 3 versions of xBill, several hundred programs that sound like they do something interesting but don't, and 1 kitchen sink.
I mean really, what ever happened to "core system" vs. "extra software"?
> This is sematics. Im physically able to dig ditches, but
:-)
> that doesnt make me a ditch digger.
It does if you actually do dig ditches.
> Ya, Ive been to a library lately. The city provides tech
> support for them. Im cant make a statement regarding
> how every jerkwater town does it, but they have
> professionals doing it where *I* live.
*sigh* Your definition of "jerkwater" encompasses 99% of the US. Only the big libraries downtown have the kind of money you're referring to. If you go out as far as the suburbs (e.g. Elgin or St. Charles) you'll note that they don't have "IT staff", Go as far as to get away from the city entirely, and you'll start seeing a lot of libraries that only exist due to Rockafeller's money back in the day. Even many of the libraries with the money to build, still don't have the money to have a full time IT staff.
> See, Windows has this little thing called a grapical user
> interface... its really neat, it displays little icons and
> everything! And in it, Windows has this thing which
> shows all the users, and you can even create users, too!
> AND, get this, you can click a different area, and it can
> sort the users into GROUPS!! WOW!!! And it does it all
> with little icons and stuff, in one interface!!!! ISNT THAT
> AMAZING?!?!?!?!?!?!
Heh. Ok, I admit it, I set you up on this one. I hate to break it to you, but Unix has had an integrated GUI for far longer than PCs. Back when Gates was still screwing around trying to make Windows 2.0 work, the Unix guys had the likes of NeWS, and later OpenWindows. Today, Solaris even comes with a Java based tool to manage ALL machines, including Solaris, Windows, routers, firewalls, etc. MMC doesn't hold a candle to this.
But you know what? Unix Admins *still* try to avoid the GUI tools. The plain and simple fact is that they can write a script to make network and machine changes in a fraction of the time it would take to go clicking through a GUI. I've worked at places that have used Unix, and I've worked at places that have used Windows. I was even an admin myself back in the day. The plain and simple fact is that the Windows Admins spend more late hours in the office, have to troubleshoot more strange problems, and generally have to work harder just to accomplish the same amount of work as a Unix admin. That's the truth. Deal with it.
> Oh, thats right. That software just wrote and debugged,
> then packaged and shipped itself! MS is selling
> something which didnt cost them any money or effort to
> create... what a fuckin scam!
It is a scam. There is zero impact on Microsoft's bottom line by making the donation. Microsoft already earned money off the PC when it was purchased. Usually, they get to double-dip by getting companies to pay for Windows a second time. Instead, Microsoft gets to double-dip the government by donating "millions of dollars of software" which does not cost them anything to deliver. Then they file with the government for a tax break equal to an amount that very few people ever pay for the software. In this way, Microsoft has just made more money off of the government than they would have made off of a sale.
> Thats funny, you were spouting "everything but
> Windows". I dont personally think Win is the be-all and
> end-all of OS's, but you must sure want me to.
Was I? Where? You asked why Microsoft was different from other companies. I answered. I then stated that if you didn't want an answer, I could go back to my Solaris/OS X/FreeBSD/Win2000... oops! Did I just mention Windows? The HORROR!
> No, but I work all over downtown. LaSalle, State,
> Michigan, etc. The closest Ive been to Wacker was Fox
> Sports, which is next to the Merchandise Mart.
Drats. And here I thought I might know you. BTW, Wacker wraps around, so that Michigan is probably the closest you've ever been. Oh well, I suppose I could always invite you out for a drink to argue the finer points of computing.
> New Powerbooks just came out, but it's been a month or two
;-)
Thus they didn't *just* come out. And with iBooks now G4 equipped, they got to do something to widen the gap.
> I *could* be an administrator, but I would rather not take the pay cut.
...
No, you *are* an administrator. As in, "you are a driver because you can drive".
> Then I would recommend they not be put in charge of
> servers.
What servers? Been to a library lately? They have a couple of PCs all hooked up to a hub or switch which in turn is hooked up to a Cisco router for their VPN. Any and all library servers are usually handled at a state level. The desktops are for people to do research on.
> I dont ask my librarian fix my car, either.
So, in your company does everyone have their own personal admin to flush the toilet for them? Because, you know, it's not like anyone would ever expect a computer to be constructed so that it can perform its function without an admin.
> It doesnt take an expensive consultant (or one at all) to
> install VirusScan, Ad-Aware, and set up logins with
> restricted rights.
It *does* when you can't afford to pay for a full time IT person. Only Universities and Colleges can afford such a staff. Public schools use an outsourced company who agrees to be on call for some small fee. Every time they call someone from that company to come out, they pay an hourly rate.
> In fact, I would say that last part is
> probably a ton easier under Win2k/XP than it is in ANY
> other operating system.
Riiigghhhttt. You know, they do have these thing-a-majigs called "Unix Machines". These "Unix" thing-a-majigs are designed so that multiple people can use the system. Each person uses a cute little mini-computer called a "terminal". These "terminals" range from simple keyboard and text machines, to fully graphical with mouse and sound. Now you see, these "Unix Machines" are designed around this multi-user concept. As a result, when a user is added to the system, they are immediately given only enough privileges to work in their own world. To do more stuff, permissions have to be added.
Contrast that to the Windows world where permissions must be subtracted or the user would be able to run amok.
> I wanted someone to honestly think about it, and realize
> they are acting with hypocritical bias.
Let me get this straight. You want people to "think about it", then instantly agree with you, because... well... you know... umm... you invented the Internet! Yeah! That's it! Oh wait, Al Gore did that. Damn.
> Instead, I get some braggart trying to justify lies.
Lies? Silly me. I guess that Microsoft really does spend more money on their donations than CD duplication fees. Sun and Apple are figments of my imagination too. Mein got! All Hail Microsoft!
> > and I'll go back to working on my Solaris/OS X/FreeBSD/
> > Win2000 boxes creating next-gen software
>
> You go, girl!
Damn straight!
> Im saying that people shouldnt spread lies about
> something of which they are unqualified to speak on. I
> wasnt pointing it at you, specifically, but maybe I hit a
> little to close to home for ya!
Hmm... you must be new here. I guess you've never heard the "insensitive clod" joke. And for the record, I don't like Linux. There are far too many systems out there that function far better to spend all my time thinking that it's "the one true OS" like you seem to think about Windows.
> I find that when most people around here cant find a
> justification for their anti-MS FUD, they usually assume
> the person is getting paid by MS. Nice try.
Hmm...
No sense of humor? Check
Microsoft lover? Check
Making a fool of yourself in public?
PRICELESS
BTW, you wouldn't happen to work in Chicago, would you? On Wacker drive maybe?
I guess they listened to my rant the other day. See? It's good to fly off the handle every once in awhile.
> No, they just came out with new G4 Powerbooks.
Those were iBooks. Powerbooks are the ones with the metal cases.
> didn't some guy at microsoft get fired for posting a
> picture of lots of G5's bought by microsoft?
Yes. However, you realize that Microsoft needs those machines to test the Mac software they MAKE. Right? You know, like Microsoft Office X.
> It seems people are moving away from 4.x so it's good I upgraded
:-)
Well, when you think about the fact that Netscape 4.x is over 6 years old (I remember when it came out back in '97!) and the fact that the code base goes back another couple of years, it's not really a surprise that it's no longer supported. That's some OLD software!
> Mozilla's not supported on solaris 7 so I installed
:-)
:-)
> netscape 7.0 which seems to be working, even if a little
> slow.
Well, if the hardware matches the OS version, I'd say you're doing pretty well. Gotta love Unix machines. There's no such thing as "out of date", simply "slow" and "fast".
> I am able to see your site as presented though
Excellent! Sorry it doesn't work in Netscape 4.0, but when faced with the choice of using modern CSS to develop a nice looking site, or creating a less attractive site that adds functionality for 0.5% of all users (that's about 0.1% of my users), I decided on the former. The funny part is that it's a really stupid bug in NS4. I'm using special rollover links that produce a shaded box over the link. To support this correctly, netscape can do one of two things:
1. Support recoloring of CSS areas
2. Ignore CSS that it doesn't implement
Instead, it goes for option #3:
3. Screw up the entire render job, turn the screen black, and make sure that no one can click on anything. Bonus points if the browser locks up!
*sigh*
BTW, if you ever want to compile Mozilla yourself, your best bet for pre-compiled dependencies is SunFreeware.com. The last pre-compiled version of Mozilla for Solaris 7 is 1.4.
Good luck!
BTW,
> Mac is no eaiser/harder to learn than WinXP.
WinXP has to be the *worst* POS that Microsoft has ever produced. The new layout is confusing to new and experienced users alike. Every admin I know has changed the interface style to the Classic Win2000 feel. Less advanced users are usually stuck (as they don't know *how* to change the interface) and end up spending hours wandering around their system, looking for the simplest things.
Oh, and have you ever tried to install software on Mac OS X vs. Windows?
Mac: Double Click on DMG file, drag application to wherever you want to put it.
Windows: Run the installer, choose an installation directory that (hopefully) no one will mess with, give the user a bunch of weird install options that they don't understand, or choose incorrectly, then make the user wait while you spew files across the drive and add a voodoo curse to their system registry. Then say "Done" and helpfully run the program once without giving the user any clue how they can run it a second time.
Should I mention uninstalls? Heh, heh, heh...
Mac: Drag the application to the trash can. Empty said trash at your leisure.
Windows: Click on Start, go to settings, select "Control Panel". Double click on "Add/Remove software". Make user scroll through a very long list of items that keep changing (the system updates icons and info on the fly) just to find the application they want to get rid of. Make user click "Remove", whereby they are often presented with confusing options and prompts for keeping DLLs that they know nothing about. ("APP176beSE.dll is no longer in use. Would you like to delete it? Warning:Your system may break if you do so!") After the user navigates all this confusion, they are then required to surf their file system and delete whatever extra files/directories the uninstaller didn't take care of.
That being said, most people don't need to do many installs/uninstalls on Windows, so one might argue that Windows 2000 can be as usable as a Mac. A fair enough argument. However, to argue that XP's new layout is easy to use for ANYTHING... well...
> And he bases his opinion on what, exactly? I can
> administrate hundreds of Win2k servers and clients from
> a remote site.
And you are an administrator. A teacher or librarian generally has very little knowledge of computer administration. If it can't be solved by a simple reboot, they have to turn the computer off, tell the kids "sorry, no more Oregon Trail today", and call in a very expensive consultant to remove the virus/spyware/configuration change that some kid accidentally added/changed.
> m just tired of hearing no-nothings bash MS for things
> they know nothing about. Just because you have your
> overclocked crappy Packard-Bell running Lunix in your
> dorm room doesnt mean you know anything about
> networking or administration.
Look, you asked a question, I answered. If you didn't *actually* want an answer, you should have said so and I'll go back to working on my Solaris/OS X/FreeBSD/Win2000 boxes creating next-gen software.
> I dont make claims about what Linux can and cant do,
> because Im not a Linux expert. Therefore, I dont think
> you (or most people here) are qualified to tell other
> people what Windows can and cant do.
WTF does Linux have to do with jack shit? I don't even like Linux, you insensitive clod!
> Thats what I base my "dumbest and nonsense filled" comment on, and I stand by it.
Translation: "I'm very good at sticking my foot in my mouth, then pretending that I didn't." Balmer? Is that you?
> Thanks for the references.
:-) Here's a link to Sun's wild and wooly world of Desktop software. They even have a very nice GNOME distribution, just in case you're one of those people who doesn't like CDE. (Who doesn't like CDE?) :-)
You're welcome.
I'm glad to see that *someone* has their head on their shoulders when it comes to Atkins. Now don't get me wrong. If the psychological encouragement that Atkins brings is the only thing that's going to make you loose weight, then by all means. Just PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE get on a balanced, nutritious diet as soon as possible. At the very least, take supplements to counter any nutrient deficiencies.
> Thats about the dumbest, most non-sense filled explaination Ive heard.
Is it really? Think about it. There's a real hardware cost to Sun and Apple when making these donations. Sure, they're hoping to get kids to like their stuff, but in a serious business (or in the case of Apple, home) environment where it's needed. Tax breaks *offset* the cost of such donations.
In the case of Microsoft, they give "Millions of dollars worth of software" which translates to "$500 in CD duplication costs for millions of dollars in tax breaks".
At the same time, Solaris is a Unix that has been traditionally used for teaching OS design. There are even special bootloaders that allow a guest OS under Solaris. Macintosh has a wide variety of educational products available, plus an interface that is easy for teachers to administrate in a school environment. Microsoft's policy is "You don't need to know anything. Just keep coding in Visual Studio 6. You're feeling veeerrryyy sleepy. Oh, and buy VS6 when you leave college, because it can't be used for non-educational use. Fscking pirates."
Dude, I've got an Ultra 10 in front of me. It runs the officially supported Netscape 7 (SUNWns6b) and Mozilla 1.x (SUNWmoz). IIRC, Opera is available for it as well. And if you like pain and anguish, even Internet Exploder runs on it! (Tried that once on an Ultra 5. Damn Microsoft software screwed up my CDE desktop profile.)
:-)
The basic point is that there's no reason why you should still be using Netscape 4.x on Solaris. If your admin won't install something better, install it in your home directory. Take control of your profile man! If enough people run a better browser, eventually the admin will get tired of resources being used up by multiple copies and will install it as root for you!
Think of it this way:
When Sun or Apple gives hardware/software, it's an expense to them, but it's consistent with the educational needs of a school and its students.
When Microsoft gives software, it costs them nothing (i.e. funny money), and smacks of giving cigarettes to kids.
> I went there from your link. That black on black text and
> dark blue text on black makes is especially easy to read.
What in the world are you talking about? The only link I posted has a white background with blue text. Perhaps you are using a non-compliant browser (Netscape 3.0 perhaps)?
Sorry, there were no cues that you were being sarcastic.
*clears throat*
Ha Ha, how funny!
> I thought "superliminal" that was when someone flashes messages on a screen too fast for you to read
Uh, that would be "subliminal". "Superluminal" literally mean "exceeds" (super) "light" (Lumen, commonly used as measurement of light. Root of "luminous" and "luminal".)