The agreement only works between countries that mutually signed it. So if the US signs it and you don't... the US doesn't have to abide by the treaty in your case.
As to whether the US would sign such a thing? We could make it work.
I do question whether your supposedly spy free countries would sign it though when the chips were down.
Regardless, would you sign it?
Lets say I'm the US... what country are you from? I'm just curious if for the sake of argument you would sign such an agreement?
Currently the US is under no such prohibition. There is no law preventing us from spying.
The problem here is that I generally agree with you but I am not seeing things in an oversimplified Black/White image.
lets just go through your post one point at a time.
1. My comment about holier then thou is responding to people that suggest that the US government is the only one in the world to spy. This is quite obviously nonsense.
2. As to my masters fighting the cold war, the US government has tried to wind down its military presence. Do you think 9/11 caused the US to engage or disengage with world politics? See what happened when Osama attacked us? we were disengaging. Then they attacked us and forced us to fight the war on terror... or whatever you want to call it. We didn't trigger that. They did. They attacked us.
3. As to wake up calls, give me some examples of what you consider to be a wake up call? We're bound into strategic alliances your governments won't break. Most your "loud" and "rude" comments are just that... its just a lot of noise. But what have you actually changed? Consider that the US still commands a superior bargaining position. It is not in your interest to shut us out because we'll respond by shutting you out. And which of us will be the poorer for that?
4. Further, consider the Russians, consider Ukraine, consider a world where people are crucified when order breaks down. Do you really want to take this hissy fit that far?
The NSA definitely stepped out of line and it will need to have its wings cut. But lets not be silly.
No, the point of the NSA to get all information deemed useful for the US strategic, tactical, economic, and political defense.
It is important that they do this in a sustainable manner that doesn't cause problems.
They've badly mismanaged the situation.
Again, the big mistake they made was in not shaming noisy holier then thou types that are often either misrepresenting or simply misinformed about the nature of the world.
Again, If you are willing to sign an agreement not to spy on the US and will accept stipulated penalties if you violate the terms. I would support the US signing a similar agreement.
I noted that in this discussion none of the people saying the US violated their countries think their countries should sign such an agreement. The reason being that you know your countries do spy on the US all the time or you fear that they are without you knowing it. And you know that if the US could use a treaty to get a fine or settlement out of them that it would be an embarrassment to your countries.
Lets just cut to the chase... you spy... we spy. You're mostly mad because we're better at it.
Beyond that, the NSA is not respecting civilian privacy. But as to government spying... it will not stop unless you agree to stop doing it yourself.
You won't. And so we have no reason to stop either.
As to stupidity, that is something you'll have to back up.
1. Cold war. Many of the things the US has done over the years that people like you don't understand are related to that conflict. You don't understand it because you didn't fight it.
2. Cold war again.
3. Cold war again.
4. Nuclear containment. It revolves around our fears of WW3 which are central to US strategic policy. Again, minor powers tend not to understand such things because they have no capability or responsibility for managing long term global peace.
5. Current US foreign policy is profoundly confused and I don't know exactly what they think they're doing. I think the current US president just reads opinion polls and does whatever they say. He appears to be a profoundly rudderless individual. What ideas has he come up with that are his own? Think about it. Nothing. So I don't take the current administration as especially representative of anything.
As to Vietnam, Cold war again. Further, consider the difference between North Korea and South Korea. Vietnam could have been like South Korea. They chose poorly. Regardless... Cold War.
As to Germany, I hold no animosity towards modern Germans. I just think you're a bit naive to think the violence stopped just because you haven't had to fight in a long time. You have been under our Aegis. Absent the US, the Soviets would have absorbed you into the USSR and you'd be there still.
You are free because we won the cold war. You have a democracy because we won the cold war.
The salient point is that without America guarding the walls... you would not be free today. Germany would not exist. Europe would not exist. You would have been subsumed into the soviet empire.
As to the US not being beneficial to the world anymore. I disagree, HOWEVER I am very happy to back off and let nature take its course here.
This is a difference between my generation and my father's generation and my grandfather's generation. They valued europe. They valued this alliance. They felt your freedom was worth American blood and treasure.
Mine doesn't. So you want us gone? We will pull back as soon as the baby boom generation leaves power. Count on it.
US strategic policy will likely start winding down our international commitments. We'll probably sell weapons and train people if they want. But we'll not put drones in the sky or boots on the ground. And that will mean that nations that haven't had to defend their borders for two generations will suddenly find themselves as the only thing stopping their own country from enslavement.
I wish no ill upon your people. I wish no ill upon any people that leave my people alone. I am very happy to retire the American giant back to its island where we can finally sleep. Think of how long we have been fighting? We are beyond tired of it.
We have fought the good fight and we are weary. Everywhere we are met with people asking us to do things for them and saying we have a responsibility to fight.
We're tired. But we feel obligated to help. Think of the people that came to the aid of europe THREE times.
We came to help in WW1. We came to help in WW2. We came to help in the Cold War.
We are still those people. And you can hate us for that... but were we any different your society would not exist. We are however very tired... and the ignorance and ingratitude of your society makes us all the more tired. We don't want to spill our blood for you anymore. We wish to sleep the dream of peace. A dream you have only enjoyed in Germany at our expense. It is our turn to sleep... and probably soon to be your turn to fight again.
Inability to do a thing is not the same thing as moral or ethical aversion to do that thing. You are not holier then us because you are incapable. You are just incapable.
You say that from which country's perspective? It helps me understand where you are coming from.
As to the American control complex... it is because we are responsible for global peace. Your country isn't.
We are a super power. We have responsibilities. If we drop the ball, billions might die. We have more responsibility every day then your culture has probably had in the last thousand years combined.
Dare to contest me. You might not like how irrelevant you are or how important the US is... and it is a problem because we're human just like everyone else and we make mistakes.
But that doesn't mean we're not the people that keep things calm enough for people to live. We keep international trade flowing. We back the international treaties that maintain world peace. We control nuclear arms. We control biological weapons. We control chemical weapons. We deny expansionist powers the ability to claim territory simply with force of arms. We forge peace and we build nations.
Are we perfect? Hardly... we're people just like everyone else. But we are far more powerful then you and with that power comes responsibility. And with that responsibility comes the right to use it.
I don't like it either. I really don't. I'd just assume retreat all US forces back to our country and let the world take care of its own problems. But we tried that after WW1 and what happened? The europeans were killing each other almost immediately. And it has only been through US military force that europe has remained peaceful. The europeans basically don't even have militaries now and they is because we protect them. And in protecting them we have restrained their old imperialist ambitions. And through that we have prevented them from killing each other again.
Think about it.
Did the US start or cause WW1?
Nope.
Did we start WW2?
Nope.
Did we start the cold war? Nope.
What wars did we start? Second Iraq war possibly though that is debatable. Short of that... none of them.
And you presume to judge us. Which country do you represent?
Looks like it is working out great for Pakistan. I think the whole world admires what a wonderful place that is to live.
Who doesn't want to live there? Raise a family... start a career...
Oh that's right... no one. It is a shithole. And the betrayals do not go unnoticed. The reason we didn't tell them about the Osama raid was because they had been lying to us. Because of that they are cut off. We will only tell them what they need to know when they need to know it.
What is more, they are cut off from our tech and we're not going to do more then the bare minimum to maintain the that relationship of convenience. Ultimately we're going to ally with India instead. Much more rational country.
Snowden is disclosing too much information about NSA operations against foreign governments. That interferes with the correct function of that organization and should be stopped.
At this point, the best move would be to grant him amnesty.
As to your pathetic little insult... is that really the best you can do?
If it bordered war then we've all been guilty for it for as long as we've been allies.
It doesn't. You just weren't aware of it. Countries spy on each other all the time. The only thing that stops them is resources and inclination.
As to you saying you wouldn't do such a thing... I believe you... just sign an agreement not to do it that has penalties if you're caught doing it. Then I'll be happy to sign the same agreement and we can both stop spying.
If you are unwilling to sign such an agreement then I'll assume your statements are made in bad faith and that you really want to continue spying while tying our hands so we can't spy back.
I really have no patience for these holier then thou arguments. They're at best naive and at worst hypocritical.
Have these allies sign an agreement to never spy on the US and I'll support the US signing a similar agreement. Short of that... we all spy on each other.
I am prepared to forgive it to end this nonsense. Nothing is gained by keeping him out of the country. Bring him in, give him amnesty... and then tell him if he keeps going then he'll be back on the list.
I guess my real point wasn't clear. I don't expect countries to sign such an agreement.
I expect them to be forced to admit that they want to retain the ability to spy by refusing to sign it.
And as such we get past this absurd holier then thou phase of the discussion where nations pretend that OF COURSE THEY don't spy on allies. Which is of course either wrong or a lie depending on whether the person saying that knows better.
once we all admit that we want to retain teh ability to spy we can talk about what limits we want to put on each other as regards such things.
If the europeans want the US to do X Y and Z... then naturally the US can require the same in turn. And oh by the way, if they get really obnoxious on the point the US can just stop sharing its intel with allies that it feels are being uncooperative.
We have a good bargaining position if we can just get these people off their soap box for two seconds.
China wouldn't sign such an agreement so there's no danger of having to do that. However, if Belgium spied on the US or Spain... and they were all signatories then you would be required to impose sanctions.
Another idea might be raising their interest rates of debt. Something simple that is hard to avoid.
I have no interest in hamstringing my nation unless the other nations are willing to accept similar limitations with consequences if they violate the rules.
Absent that, I must assume you are spying on me and I will respond in kind.
Thus the US spying on foreign governments is a non-issue since those governments likewise spy on the US.
Is the US more competent at it? Perhaps. But being competent or incompetent does not render you unethical or ethical respectively.
if you want to talk about the NSA spying on civilians... I agree that is bad unless they're actually suspected of terrorism or some other misdeed. If they are domestic then that should go through the FBI and require a warrant. If foreign, then the NSA can just do whatever as usual.
As to the holier then thou crap you're about to shovel at me... limit your own nation to the same standard with consequences if they break the rules IF you want the US to take your position at all seriously. Absent that... it again just sounds like you want other people to play by rules that you probably won't follow yourself.
Slashdot Mirror
The agreement only works between countries that mutually signed it. So if the US signs it and you don't... the US doesn't have to abide by the treaty in your case.
As to whether the US would sign such a thing? We could make it work.
I do question whether your supposedly spy free countries would sign it though when the chips were down.
Regardless, would you sign it?
Lets say I'm the US... what country are you from? I'm just curious if for the sake of argument you would sign such an agreement?
Currently the US is under no such prohibition. There is no law preventing us from spying.
No.
The problem here is that I generally agree with you but I am not seeing things in an oversimplified Black/White image.
lets just go through your post one point at a time.
1. My comment about holier then thou is responding to people that suggest that the US government is the only one in the world to spy. This is quite obviously nonsense.
2. As to my masters fighting the cold war, the US government has tried to wind down its military presence. Do you think 9/11 caused the US to engage or disengage with world politics? See what happened when Osama attacked us? we were disengaging. Then they attacked us and forced us to fight the war on terror... or whatever you want to call it. We didn't trigger that. They did. They attacked us.
3. As to wake up calls, give me some examples of what you consider to be a wake up call? We're bound into strategic alliances your governments won't break. Most your "loud" and "rude" comments are just that... its just a lot of noise. But what have you actually changed? Consider that the US still commands a superior bargaining position. It is not in your interest to shut us out because we'll respond by shutting you out. And which of us will be the poorer for that?
4. Further, consider the Russians, consider Ukraine, consider a world where people are crucified when order breaks down. Do you really want to take this hissy fit that far?
The NSA definitely stepped out of line and it will need to have its wings cut. But lets not be silly.
No more so then any government on earth.
Tell me, what law is the US government in violation of that the US government signed or otherwise agreed to honor?
Can you cite a treaty ratified by our congress? Or do you think your national laws have meaning to a foreign government?
I feel like I'm arguing with children. How old are you people? These are the sorts of things I'd expect to hear from 12 year olds or something.
No, the point of the NSA to get all information deemed useful for the US strategic, tactical, economic, and political defense.
It is important that they do this in a sustainable manner that doesn't cause problems.
They've badly mismanaged the situation.
Again, the big mistake they made was in not shaming noisy holier then thou types that are often either misrepresenting or simply misinformed about the nature of the world.
Again, If you are willing to sign an agreement not to spy on the US and will accept stipulated penalties if you violate the terms. I would support the US signing a similar agreement.
I noted that in this discussion none of the people saying the US violated their countries think their countries should sign such an agreement. The reason being that you know your countries do spy on the US all the time or you fear that they are without you knowing it. And you know that if the US could use a treaty to get a fine or settlement out of them that it would be an embarrassment to your countries.
Lets just cut to the chase... you spy... we spy. You're mostly mad because we're better at it.
Beyond that, the NSA is not respecting civilian privacy. But as to government spying... it will not stop unless you agree to stop doing it yourself.
You won't. And so we have no reason to stop either.
It isn't a lie. Name your country and I'll pull up evidence of spying.
You can't distill every opinion 150 million voters think to a single binary choice every 4 years and expect to be able to send a complicated message.
As to stupidity, that is something you'll have to back up.
1. Cold war. Many of the things the US has done over the years that people like you don't understand are related to that conflict. You don't understand it because you didn't fight it.
2. Cold war again.
3. Cold war again.
4. Nuclear containment. It revolves around our fears of WW3 which are central to US strategic policy. Again, minor powers tend not to understand such things because they have no capability or responsibility for managing long term global peace.
5. Current US foreign policy is profoundly confused and I don't know exactly what they think they're doing. I think the current US president just reads opinion polls and does whatever they say. He appears to be a profoundly rudderless individual. What ideas has he come up with that are his own? Think about it. Nothing. So I don't take the current administration as especially representative of anything.
As to Vietnam, Cold war again. Further, consider the difference between North Korea and South Korea. Vietnam could have been like South Korea. They chose poorly. Regardless... Cold War.
As to Germany, I hold no animosity towards modern Germans. I just think you're a bit naive to think the violence stopped just because you haven't had to fight in a long time. You have been under our Aegis. Absent the US, the Soviets would have absorbed you into the USSR and you'd be there still.
You are free because we won the cold war. You have a democracy because we won the cold war.
I think I'm going to let Jack break it down:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
The salient point is that without America guarding the walls... you would not be free today. Germany would not exist. Europe would not exist. You would have been subsumed into the soviet empire.
As to the US not being beneficial to the world anymore. I disagree, HOWEVER I am very happy to back off and let nature take its course here.
This is a difference between my generation and my father's generation and my grandfather's generation. They valued europe. They valued this alliance. They felt your freedom was worth American blood and treasure.
Mine doesn't. So you want us gone? We will pull back as soon as the baby boom generation leaves power. Count on it.
US strategic policy will likely start winding down our international commitments. We'll probably sell weapons and train people if they want. But we'll not put drones in the sky or boots on the ground. And that will mean that nations that haven't had to defend their borders for two generations will suddenly find themselves as the only thing stopping their own country from enslavement.
I wish no ill upon your people. I wish no ill upon any people that leave my people alone. I am very happy to retire the American giant back to its island where we can finally sleep. Think of how long we have been fighting? We are beyond tired of it.
We have fought the good fight and we are weary. Everywhere we are met with people asking us to do things for them and saying we have a responsibility to fight.
We're tired. But we feel obligated to help. Think of the people that came to the aid of europe THREE times.
We came to help in WW1.
We came to help in WW2.
We came to help in the Cold War.
We are still those people. And you can hate us for that... but were we any different your society would not exist. We are however very tired... and the ignorance and ingratitude of your society makes us all the more tired. We don't want to spill our blood for you anymore. We wish to sleep the dream of peace. A dream you have only enjoyed in Germany at our expense. It is our turn to sleep... and probably soon to be your turn to fight again.
Good day.
Inability to do a thing is not the same thing as moral or ethical aversion to do that thing. You are not holier then us because you are incapable. You are just incapable.
Your ejaculation comments just make you sound stupid... just fyi.
As to my quote, just because other countries are doing it doesn't mean it is helpful to the US to have our actions disclosed.
Twit.
What do you think the Germans and English are trading for US intelligence? Their own intelligence.
the logic is circular so there isn't much I can say.
You say that from which country's perspective? It helps me understand where you are coming from.
As to the American control complex... it is because we are responsible for global peace. Your country isn't.
We are a super power. We have responsibilities. If we drop the ball, billions might die. We have more responsibility every day then your culture has probably had in the last thousand years combined.
Dare to contest me. You might not like how irrelevant you are or how important the US is... and it is a problem because we're human just like everyone else and we make mistakes.
But that doesn't mean we're not the people that keep things calm enough for people to live. We keep international trade flowing. We back the international treaties that maintain world peace. We control nuclear arms. We control biological weapons. We control chemical weapons. We deny expansionist powers the ability to claim territory simply with force of arms. We forge peace and we build nations.
Are we perfect? Hardly... we're people just like everyone else. But we are far more powerful then you and with that power comes responsibility. And with that responsibility comes the right to use it.
I don't like it either. I really don't. I'd just assume retreat all US forces back to our country and let the world take care of its own problems. But we tried that after WW1 and what happened? The europeans were killing each other almost immediately. And it has only been through US military force that europe has remained peaceful. The europeans basically don't even have militaries now and they is because we protect them. And in protecting them we have restrained their old imperialist ambitions. And through that we have prevented them from killing each other again.
Think about it.
Did the US start or cause WW1?
Nope.
Did we start WW2?
Nope.
Did we start the cold war? Nope.
What wars did we start? Second Iraq war possibly though that is debatable. Short of that... none of them.
And you presume to judge us. Which country do you represent?
Looks like it is working out great for Pakistan. I think the whole world admires what a wonderful place that is to live.
Who doesn't want to live there? Raise a family... start a career...
Oh that's right... no one. It is a shithole. And the betrayals do not go unnoticed. The reason we didn't tell them about the Osama raid was because they had been lying to us. Because of that they are cut off. We will only tell them what they need to know when they need to know it.
What is more, they are cut off from our tech and we're not going to do more then the bare minimum to maintain the that relationship of convenience. Ultimately we're going to ally with India instead. Much more rational country.
Snowden is disclosing too much information about NSA operations against foreign governments. That interferes with the correct function of that organization and should be stopped.
At this point, the best move would be to grant him amnesty.
As to your pathetic little insult... is that really the best you can do?
The US says that hypocritical crap the chinese every other day of the week. Its nothing special.
As to leaks being done to drive a wedge between the US and germany... maybe... rather doubt it.
As to paying rent, he doesn't need to pay more. Simply causing problems for the US intelligence services for any reason is payment in full.
The UN doesn't have to hold that power. Sign a treaty and its done.
Sure... and on top of that all players in the game insert covert agents that gather information that other players don't want to share.
We all do it to each other.
If it bordered war then we've all been guilty for it for as long as we've been allies.
It doesn't. You just weren't aware of it. Countries spy on each other all the time. The only thing that stops them is resources and inclination.
As to you saying you wouldn't do such a thing... I believe you... just sign an agreement not to do it that has penalties if you're caught doing it. Then I'll be happy to sign the same agreement and we can both stop spying.
If you are unwilling to sign such an agreement then I'll assume your statements are made in bad faith and that you really want to continue spying while tying our hands so we can't spy back.
I really have no patience for these holier then thou arguments. They're at best naive and at worst hypocritical.
Have these allies sign an agreement to never spy on the US and I'll support the US signing a similar agreement. Short of that... we all spy on each other.
I am prepared to forgive it to end this nonsense. Nothing is gained by keeping him out of the country. Bring him in, give him amnesty... and then tell him if he keeps going then he'll be back on the list.
its the best option we have left.
I guess my real point wasn't clear. I don't expect countries to sign such an agreement.
I expect them to be forced to admit that they want to retain the ability to spy by refusing to sign it.
And as such we get past this absurd holier then thou phase of the discussion where nations pretend that OF COURSE THEY don't spy on allies. Which is of course either wrong or a lie depending on whether the person saying that knows better.
once we all admit that we want to retain teh ability to spy we can talk about what limits we want to put on each other as regards such things.
If the europeans want the US to do X Y and Z... then naturally the US can require the same in turn. And oh by the way, if they get really obnoxious on the point the US can just stop sharing its intel with allies that it feels are being uncooperative.
We have a good bargaining position if we can just get these people off their soap box for two seconds.
I agree.
China wouldn't sign such an agreement so there's no danger of having to do that. However, if Belgium spied on the US or Spain... and they were all signatories then you would be required to impose sanctions.
Another idea might be raising their interest rates of debt. Something simple that is hard to avoid.
I have no interest in hamstringing my nation unless the other nations are willing to accept similar limitations with consequences if they violate the rules.
Absent that, I must assume you are spying on me and I will respond in kind.
Thus the US spying on foreign governments is a non-issue since those governments likewise spy on the US.
Is the US more competent at it? Perhaps. But being competent or incompetent does not render you unethical or ethical respectively.
if you want to talk about the NSA spying on civilians... I agree that is bad unless they're actually suspected of terrorism or some other misdeed. If they are domestic then that should go through the FBI and require a warrant. If foreign, then the NSA can just do whatever as usual.
As to the holier then thou crap you're about to shovel at me... limit your own nation to the same standard with consequences if they break the rules IF you want the US to take your position at all seriously. Absent that... it again just sounds like you want other people to play by rules that you probably won't follow yourself.
My understanding is that many of the documents are encrypted.