All those steps in place might mean that a given person isn't liable for the damage. But the system itself ultimately cannot escape blame. Just as anything that goes wrong with a ship at sea is the captain's fault... no matter what it is... whatever system is being used to safeguard these boats is at fault.
If one system has almost no rules and for some reason never loses a ship and another system has lots of rules but loses ships... which is better? The point is to not lose ships.
I don't really care what the rules are or how rigorous they are... when a billion dollars of ship goes up in smoke consider what that is... how many American house holds fueled that one ship. About 120 thousand people roughly. Their contribution... up in f'ing smoke.
I'm not saying people are incompetent. they all might have done exactly what they were supposed to do.
But the boat burned... and that means something isn't right. It's binary. Either the system saved the ship or it didn't.
I counted over a dozen separate compartments... what are you talking about?
There are only two compartments in a sub in the way that there is an inside and an outside... that's more one compartment really... but when I refer to compartments I mean the room in a sub and they can all be sealed water tight which means they can be sealed close enough to air tight as to not matter.
I'll buy shit happening for a fire. I don't buy shit happening for a billion dollars of ship going up in flames.
Lets say the empire state building fell down tomorrow and no one apparently broke any rules and the building was totally up to code.
What would happen about five seconds later? The code would be changed. It's not okay.
I'm not asking for perfection here. I'm asking for competence. if a little fire happened that scorched some paint... that would be fine. I don't really care. If a billion dollar sub dies because of a fire in dry dock... then something somewhere is wrong. You can't lose ships in dry dock.
I was on a few sites the other day because I was shocked at the hard drive prices elsewhere... and I found that I could find lots of places that offered drives at what I had understood to be a good price.
I don't know what you guys are looking for... is 100 dollars for 1TB a good price? I thought that was a good price. I've seen some places that are charging 300 dollars for OEM 3.5 SATA drives that don't have any special features. That was why I looked elsewhere. I won't cite the places because I don't want to be confused with an ad bot.
So... if I take a flint and steel and bunch of wires... you think I can get a fire going just burning the rubber insulation on the wires?
This isn't even a question of odds. I mean, maybe you could get plastic shopping bags to burn... but the insulation on wires generally melts but does not burn... and if it does burn it certainly isn't going to burn with enough intensity to create a self sustaining reaction. Somewhere in a report we'll never get to read there's going to be some highly flammable liquid that just happened to be next to someone's cigarette and oh yeah all the doors were open...
Anyway, you want to nitpick my various unschooled suggestions... fine and likely well deserved. But don't tell me there is nothing you can do about this situation. 1 billion went up in smoke there. That is not acceptable. So if I don't the answer... fine... I'm not paid to have the answer and I'm trying to pull answers out of my ass. So that I don't have that answer is not surprising or any reflection on me. But it is not acceptable that the shipyard or the navy not have an answer to this. It is not remotely okay.
Remember that captain that surfaced under a fishing boat during drills off Hawaii? Think he ever got another command? And he didn't even total the boat. This is not okay.
Then dry dock needs special systems in place specifically to deal with this problem because it is not acceptable for a billion dollar ship to burn in f'ing dry dock.
hmmm... hadn't thought about that. Still, this shouldn't be possible. If conventional fire suppression is made impossible by cutting holes in the hull then they should add some temporary means of controlling possible outbreaks. I just don't want this happen again... about billion dollars just burned there.
No one cares because it's the government's money but it's our f'ing money. 1 billion of your money just burned.
ONE compartment does not have enough air in it to sustain a reaction powerful enough to scrap the whole f'ing boat.
If you close ALL the compartments that are not occupied and supply air through the ventilation system exactly how is the fire going to get air? Yes, if there are f'ing holes in the boat then that would be an issue. But then you have to do something else. Someone said Halon... that's a great idea. Just have some portable halon emitters that dump halon into a compartment if the temperature rises above 500 degrees. Problem solved. And even if there are leaks if the room is flooded with halon that fire is going to die down fast. What about the poor repair people in the room when the halon goes off? Halon isn't nerve gas. Just like the fire, you're not going to immediately asphyxiate. You're going to find it hard to breath and then you're going to asphyxiate. If you leave the room right away and seal the compartment after you then you'll be fine.
You're a little too eager to claim I'm misinformed. And it's a straw man to say that I said it was only metal and wire insulation. I specifically questioned whether it was bedding. So if I followed your own rules could I then question if you're literate? You don't like that comment? Well, I didn't like your nonsense either... in the future be more polite or be treated like a douche.
Fine... but then why have all the doors open? Just shutting the stupid doors would solve most of the problem since the fire would burn up all the oxygen or whatever is burning and that would be the end of it. You'd get a fire in one compartment that would have burned itself out fairly quickly.
My understanding is that subs are mostly steel. I'm not comfortable with simply calling this a regrettable incident and writing "oops" on the headline. You're talking about a fire that destroyed a sub outright. That's not even remotely acceptable. If I say "oops" then I'm accepting that this can happen at any time again and again without anyone taking any responsibility or taking any action to make it less likely.
I don't even begin to understand the mentality that views that acceptable. That bad things happen is something I accept but you have to then figure out what happened and take steps to avoid that situation in the future.
Everyone seems to be saying there is no way to stop this from happening. WTF? Seal the compartments when not in use for one. For another, there should be sensors in the sub that relay temperature alerts to the bridge. In drydock that information could be further piped to the central office of the repair yard.
Whatever... you have to have some kind of system in place so this doesn't happen. Apparently there isn't such a system which bothers me.
From what I've seen they're made up of different compartments. I don't see the problem with closing them. when people aren't inside. If you want to air the boat out, then do it through the ventilation system. If a temperature sensor starts reporting high temperature in a given compartment, why would I keep pouring air into it? I would have it automatically stop feeding air to that compartment and then of course flash a warning light or an alert to the bridge where they could override the automatic system or if no one is on board simply not.
What you're saying is that they just have all the doors open and the top hatch open. I don't see why you'd do that especially if there is basically no one on board.
Hindsight 20 20... I know... but subs shouldn't suffer burn so badly they get scrapped. That's absurd.
Well that sounds unpleasant... but it still takes quiet a bit of heat to make that happen.
I had no idea titanium reacted that way. My previous impression was that it was noted for being especially stable. In any case, I'm pretty sure these subs are mostly steel.
exactly how do you get the fire that hot? What are we burning to get this inferno going?
I'm assuming this was a freak electrical fire? Okay... what the hell did it touch off. electrical fires are a big spark but without a fuel source after that that is the end of it. what was the fuel source?
Telling me plastic burns isn't helpful because you can't start a raging inferno with nothing but a spark and plastic. There has to be an intermediary fuel source unless this is especially combustible plastic.
As to automatic fire suppression systems... bare minimum it should have a sprinkler system. If temperatures rise beyond a certain point then Halon would be no threat because frankly anyone still in there is already dead.
Again, it's sad... but it's more puzzling then anything.
Sure, MS is trying to make IE look more popular somehow even though it's the crap browser. But then look at all the people that don't really care what the data is they just want to dog pile on Microsoft?
I hate these issues. People either need to be objective, detached, and open minded or they need to stay the f' out of statistics. Just go bang rocks together somewhere else with the other barbarians.
I don't think you should be allowed to wear a mask at protests.
I'm okay with some anonymity but total anonymity is problematic.
For example, if you throw a brick through a window, I want to know your name, where you live, and to arrest you. If you're wearing a mask then I can't identify you and it might not be possible to arrest you. Furthermore, the fact that it's harder or impossible to arrest someone might make them more likely to commit crimes.
In regards to posting things online, I think sites should keep records of who posts. If a court order is presented then the site should cooperate by turning over registration information, IP logs, and whatever else relates to that individual.
As to protests being a right, anonymous protests are not a right. Think back to the founders and think to the nature of free speech rights. These are individual rights. They're held by people. If you cloak your identity then who are you?
I associate masked protesters with third world countries. It's very common in the middle east and south America mostly because there is a secret police in some of these countries that will hurt you or your family just for protesting. The US doesn't have that. Yes, the FBI might keep a file on you but keeping a file is not a violation of your rights nor will it matter unless you decide to start committing actual crimes. Americans have no personal experience with secret police. They have them in China amongst other places. They have what are called "black jails"... extra legal prisons. No trial. You just get grabbed off the street and you're gone. No one knows where you went, why you were taken, or whether you will be returned. You're just gone.
If you exist in that sort of environment, then wearing a mask is important. But in our society the only reason to wear a mask is to hide from due legal consequences or if you possibly fear radical rivals coming after you. There has been some of that lately. There was a guy that posted some things on line and disclosed his real identity. A crazy person started harassing him in real life after that. They made threats at his place of work... his employer fired him because it was easier to fire him then deal with the possibility of the crazy person burning the building down or slashing tires. The guy has moved and is now laying low. But the crazy person would have no way of getting his ID unless he had a court order which is unlikely or had access to the server which is also unlikely.
So in general, I think the current system is fine. But until/unless we have a secret police in the US, take the f'ing masks off at protests... or enjoy pepper spray to the eyes. I'm sorry... I just really hate masked protesters.
Sounds like there needs to be an enterprise version of siri. Same basic thing just a segregated appliance somewhere that the company can nuke from orbit as required.
I think I can input a voice search into google if I want. Isn't there a little microphone next to the text box? Lets say I press that... then say something... what I said should roughly wind up in that search field. So... this is a larger problem assuming it's a problem at all which seems unlikely.
I know people hate this stuff... it's microsoft and thus evil... but if you want a user friendly, feature rich, small business email server... It's honestly pretty good.
I'm sure there are free linux alternatives... if you want go with one of them. I'm sure they're great too. I have a lot of experience with exchange and outlook. They're really good at what they do. And while it probably won't scale to google gmail levels it's actually very good even in enterprises.
By this logic google, bing, etc would be security holes.
And given that IBM is marketing Watson which is basically a super computer version of Siri... how does any of this make any sense?
I honestly don't understand the worry here.
When I looked at this, I thought the initial worry might be that the phone was listening all the time and could be parsing real time conversations through the apple servers all the time. That is TECHNICALLY possible. My understanding of siri is that it only listens when you cue it.
I'm just tying to piece together what situation or insight lead IBM to have this worry? Possibly someone pocket dialed Siri, a sensitive conversation fed into siri, and siri responded to the conversation in context from someone's pocket? That would be spooky. But I don't really see it as a security hole especially since it's hard to pocket dial iphones. The slider tends to make that rare.
First, this is totally unenforceable. It's not even remotely practical.
Second, assuming they somecrazyhow made this work, they'd likely destroy themselves. The same politicians that are crying about nasty people online are often supported by political machines and SEO organizations that flood the internet with traffic to bias internet results in their favor. If everything were actually IDed to the point where the SEO people couldn't fake their way out of it then these guys would be boned.
Look at the people that show up protests. How many of them are paid to be there? You don't know. How many of them even live in the area assuming it's a local issue? You don't know. There have been many situations where protesters were literally picked up from the front of a home depot like a disreputable home builder, given pre made signs the people carrying them can't even read, and then asked to wave them angrily.
The levels of bullshit going on at this point are hard to understate. So sure... keep bitching you slimy weasels. But this is yet another situation where if you actually got what you wanted it would destroy you.
Probably not big eaters of unprocessed corn but corn products are involved in products all over the world. Corn syrup is an example of a corn based sugar substitute that is very widely used. If it's from GM corn then it's banned in France.
Further, you can look at a lot of things like corn starch, corn meal, etc that also in a lot of things that don't look like corn.
Maize is one of the few staple crops that supply the vast majority of calories for humans. Rice, wheat, corn, potatoes... and probably taro (big in the pacific islands).
Monsanto and other GM companies tend to focus on engineering staple crops because if you can ensure abundance of those commodities the food supply of most nations is secure.
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It's a binary solution set... did it happen.
All those steps in place might mean that a given person isn't liable for the damage. But the system itself ultimately cannot escape blame. Just as anything that goes wrong with a ship at sea is the captain's fault... no matter what it is... whatever system is being used to safeguard these boats is at fault.
If one system has almost no rules and for some reason never loses a ship and another system has lots of rules but loses ships... which is better? The point is to not lose ships.
I don't really care what the rules are or how rigorous they are... when a billion dollars of ship goes up in smoke consider what that is... how many American house holds fueled that one ship. About 120 thousand people roughly. Their contribution... up in f'ing smoke.
I'm not saying people are incompetent. they all might have done exactly what they were supposed to do.
But the boat burned... and that means something isn't right. It's binary. Either the system saved the ship or it didn't.
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2002/09/09/sub_laclass.gif
I counted over a dozen separate compartments... what are you talking about?
There are only two compartments in a sub in the way that there is an inside and an outside... that's more one compartment really... but when I refer to compartments I mean the room in a sub and they can all be sealed water tight which means they can be sealed close enough to air tight as to not matter.
I'll buy shit happening for a fire. I don't buy shit happening for a billion dollars of ship going up in flames.
Lets say the empire state building fell down tomorrow and no one apparently broke any rules and the building was totally up to code.
What would happen about five seconds later? The code would be changed. It's not okay.
I'm not asking for perfection here. I'm asking for competence. if a little fire happened that scorched some paint... that would be fine. I don't really care. If a billion dollar sub dies because of a fire in dry dock... then something somewhere is wrong. You can't lose ships in dry dock.
I was on a few sites the other day because I was shocked at the hard drive prices elsewhere... and I found that I could find lots of places that offered drives at what I had understood to be a good price.
I don't know what you guys are looking for... is 100 dollars for 1TB a good price? I thought that was a good price. I've seen some places that are charging 300 dollars for OEM 3.5 SATA drives that don't have any special features. That was why I looked elsewhere. I won't cite the places because I don't want to be confused with an ad bot.
So... if I take a flint and steel and bunch of wires... you think I can get a fire going just burning the rubber insulation on the wires?
This isn't even a question of odds. I mean, maybe you could get plastic shopping bags to burn... but the insulation on wires generally melts but does not burn... and if it does burn it certainly isn't going to burn with enough intensity to create a self sustaining reaction. Somewhere in a report we'll never get to read there's going to be some highly flammable liquid that just happened to be next to someone's cigarette and oh yeah all the doors were open...
I thought the hatches could be manually closed?
Anyway, you want to nitpick my various unschooled suggestions... fine and likely well deserved. But don't tell me there is nothing you can do about this situation. 1 billion went up in smoke there. That is not acceptable. So if I don't the answer... fine... I'm not paid to have the answer and I'm trying to pull answers out of my ass. So that I don't have that answer is not surprising or any reflection on me. But it is not acceptable that the shipyard or the navy not have an answer to this. It is not remotely okay.
Remember that captain that surfaced under a fishing boat during drills off Hawaii? Think he ever got another command? And he didn't even total the boat. This is not okay.
Then dry dock needs special systems in place specifically to deal with this problem because it is not acceptable for a billion dollar ship to burn in f'ing dry dock.
hmmm... hadn't thought about that. Still, this shouldn't be possible. If conventional fire suppression is made impossible by cutting holes in the hull then they should add some temporary means of controlling possible outbreaks. I just don't want this happen again... about billion dollars just burned there.
No one cares because it's the government's money but it's our f'ing money. 1 billion of your money just burned.
Please care.
Lagging?... so this is insulation? And it burns? Fantastic... *facepalm*
ONE compartment does not have enough air in it to sustain a reaction powerful enough to scrap the whole f'ing boat.
If you close ALL the compartments that are not occupied and supply air through the ventilation system exactly how is the fire going to get air? Yes, if there are f'ing holes in the boat then that would be an issue. But then you have to do something else. Someone said Halon... that's a great idea. Just have some portable halon emitters that dump halon into a compartment if the temperature rises above 500 degrees. Problem solved. And even if there are leaks if the room is flooded with halon that fire is going to die down fast. What about the poor repair people in the room when the halon goes off? Halon isn't nerve gas. Just like the fire, you're not going to immediately asphyxiate. You're going to find it hard to breath and then you're going to asphyxiate. If you leave the room right away and seal the compartment after you then you'll be fine.
You're a little too eager to claim I'm misinformed. And it's a straw man to say that I said it was only metal and wire insulation. I specifically questioned whether it was bedding. So if I followed your own rules could I then question if you're literate? You don't like that comment? Well, I didn't like your nonsense either... in the future be more polite or be treated like a douche.
Fine... but then why have all the doors open? Just shutting the stupid doors would solve most of the problem since the fire would burn up all the oxygen or whatever is burning and that would be the end of it. You'd get a fire in one compartment that would have burned itself out fairly quickly.
My understanding is that subs are mostly steel. I'm not comfortable with simply calling this a regrettable incident and writing "oops" on the headline. You're talking about a fire that destroyed a sub outright. That's not even remotely acceptable. If I say "oops" then I'm accepting that this can happen at any time again and again without anyone taking any responsibility or taking any action to make it less likely.
I don't even begin to understand the mentality that views that acceptable. That bad things happen is something I accept but you have to then figure out what happened and take steps to avoid that situation in the future.
Everyone seems to be saying there is no way to stop this from happening. WTF? Seal the compartments when not in use for one. For another, there should be sensors in the sub that relay temperature alerts to the bridge. In drydock that information could be further piped to the central office of the repair yard.
Whatever... you have to have some kind of system in place so this doesn't happen. Apparently there isn't such a system which bothers me.
From what I've seen they're made up of different compartments. I don't see the problem with closing them. when people aren't inside. If you want to air the boat out, then do it through the ventilation system. If a temperature sensor starts reporting high temperature in a given compartment, why would I keep pouring air into it? I would have it automatically stop feeding air to that compartment and then of course flash a warning light or an alert to the bridge where they could override the automatic system or if no one is on board simply not.
What you're saying is that they just have all the doors open and the top hatch open. I don't see why you'd do that especially if there is basically no one on board.
Hindsight 20 20... I know... but subs shouldn't suffer burn so badly they get scrapped. That's absurd.
Well that sounds unpleasant... but it still takes quiet a bit of heat to make that happen.
I had no idea titanium reacted that way. My previous impression was that it was noted for being especially stable. In any case, I'm pretty sure these subs are mostly steel.
exactly how do you get the fire that hot? What are we burning to get this inferno going?
I'm assuming this was a freak electrical fire? Okay... what the hell did it touch off. electrical fires are a big spark but without a fuel source after that that is the end of it. what was the fuel source?
Telling me plastic burns isn't helpful because you can't start a raging inferno with nothing but a spark and plastic. There has to be an intermediary fuel source unless this is especially combustible plastic.
As to automatic fire suppression systems... bare minimum it should have a sprinkler system. If temperatures rise beyond a certain point then Halon would be no threat because frankly anyone still in there is already dead.
Again, it's sad... but it's more puzzling then anything.
What the hell was burning? The subs are nuclear powered so it wasn't fuel. What are we talking about here? Bedding? I just don't understand.
As other people pointed out, why weren't the hatches just closed? A fire won't last long if the hatches are closed.
Finally, there has to be some kind of fire suppression system on these subs. Don't tell me all they've got are some hand held fire extinguishers.
Anyway, this is of course very sad. But I find it more weird then anything else.
Everyone is biased as hell.
Sure, MS is trying to make IE look more popular somehow even though it's the crap browser. But then look at all the people that don't really care what the data is they just want to dog pile on Microsoft?
I hate these issues. People either need to be objective, detached, and open minded or they need to stay the f' out of statistics. Just go bang rocks together somewhere else with the other barbarians.
I don't think you should be allowed to wear a mask at protests.
I'm okay with some anonymity but total anonymity is problematic.
For example, if you throw a brick through a window, I want to know your name, where you live, and to arrest you. If you're wearing a mask then I can't identify you and it might not be possible to arrest you. Furthermore, the fact that it's harder or impossible to arrest someone might make them more likely to commit crimes.
In regards to posting things online, I think sites should keep records of who posts. If a court order is presented then the site should cooperate by turning over registration information, IP logs, and whatever else relates to that individual.
As to protests being a right, anonymous protests are not a right. Think back to the founders and think to the nature of free speech rights. These are individual rights. They're held by people. If you cloak your identity then who are you?
I associate masked protesters with third world countries. It's very common in the middle east and south America mostly because there is a secret police in some of these countries that will hurt you or your family just for protesting. The US doesn't have that. Yes, the FBI might keep a file on you but keeping a file is not a violation of your rights nor will it matter unless you decide to start committing actual crimes. Americans have no personal experience with secret police. They have them in China amongst other places. They have what are called "black jails"... extra legal prisons. No trial. You just get grabbed off the street and you're gone. No one knows where you went, why you were taken, or whether you will be returned. You're just gone.
If you exist in that sort of environment, then wearing a mask is important. But in our society the only reason to wear a mask is to hide from due legal consequences or if you possibly fear radical rivals coming after you. There has been some of that lately. There was a guy that posted some things on line and disclosed his real identity. A crazy person started harassing him in real life after that. They made threats at his place of work... his employer fired him because it was easier to fire him then deal with the possibility of the crazy person burning the building down or slashing tires. The guy has moved and is now laying low. But the crazy person would have no way of getting his ID unless he had a court order which is unlikely or had access to the server which is also unlikely.
So in general, I think the current system is fine. But until/unless we have a secret police in the US, take the f'ing masks off at protests... or enjoy pepper spray to the eyes. I'm sorry... I just really hate masked protesters.
Ah, I agree with that problem.
Never mind then, that makes perfect sense.
Sounds like there needs to be an enterprise version of siri. Same basic thing just a segregated appliance somewhere that the company can nuke from orbit as required.
It's the only way to be sure.
I think I can input a voice search into google if I want. Isn't there a little microphone next to the text box? Lets say I press that... then say something... what I said should roughly wind up in that search field. So... this is a larger problem assuming it's a problem at all which seems unlikely.
I know people hate this stuff... it's microsoft and thus evil... but if you want a user friendly, feature rich, small business email server... It's honestly pretty good.
I'm sure there are free linux alternatives... if you want go with one of them. I'm sure they're great too. I have a lot of experience with exchange and outlook. They're really good at what they do. And while it probably won't scale to google gmail levels it's actually very good even in enterprises.
Do what you like but I like exchange.
By this logic google, bing, etc would be security holes.
And given that IBM is marketing Watson which is basically a super computer version of Siri... how does any of this make any sense?
I honestly don't understand the worry here.
When I looked at this, I thought the initial worry might be that the phone was listening all the time and could be parsing real time conversations through the apple servers all the time. That is TECHNICALLY possible. My understanding of siri is that it only listens when you cue it.
I'm just tying to piece together what situation or insight lead IBM to have this worry? Possibly someone pocket dialed Siri, a sensitive conversation fed into siri, and siri responded to the conversation in context from someone's pocket? That would be spooky. But I don't really see it as a security hole especially since it's hard to pocket dial iphones. The slider tends to make that rare.
First, this is totally unenforceable. It's not even remotely practical.
Second, assuming they somecrazyhow made this work, they'd likely destroy themselves. The same politicians that are crying about nasty people online are often supported by political machines and SEO organizations that flood the internet with traffic to bias internet results in their favor. If everything were actually IDed to the point where the SEO people couldn't fake their way out of it then these guys would be boned.
Look at the people that show up protests. How many of them are paid to be there? You don't know. How many of them even live in the area assuming it's a local issue? You don't know. There have been many situations where protesters were literally picked up from the front of a home depot like a disreputable home builder, given pre made signs the people carrying them can't even read, and then asked to wave them angrily.
The levels of bullshit going on at this point are hard to understate. So sure... keep bitching you slimy weasels. But this is yet another situation where if you actually got what you wanted it would destroy you.
Probably not big eaters of unprocessed corn but corn products are involved in products all over the world. Corn syrup is an example of a corn based sugar substitute that is very widely used. If it's from GM corn then it's banned in France.
Further, you can look at a lot of things like corn starch, corn meal, etc that also in a lot of things that don't look like corn.
Maize is one of the few staple crops that supply the vast majority of calories for humans. Rice, wheat, corn, potatoes... and probably taro (big in the pacific islands).
Monsanto and other GM companies tend to focus on engineering staple crops because if you can ensure abundance of those commodities the food supply of most nations is secure.