>"ls" is on page 24 of Unix for Dummies, the same page that reminds you to
>press Enter at the end of any command line. The > redirector is on page 62,
>the page after the section where it tells you what a directory is and how to >create one.
Oh f*ck I hate it when I prove that I don't know everyting...;-)
>You keep all your files in one folder? If I did that with the CAD files at
>work, every designer would spend half his day looking for the file he wants
>to edit, and it would take 10 minutes just to pull up a listing of all the files.
>We have something like 800 jobs on the server, each with 10-50 AutoCAD
>drawings. That would be an administration nightmare if not for hierarchial
>directory structure (/mnt/cad/001543/mech/floor2/hvac.dwg for example).
I assumed the folder is already open. Your example assumed that the proper directory was already selected so fairness requires that the right folder be open already. If we assume it isn't, add the possibility of typos getting in the way of your command (possibly executing the command on the wrong folder - in your example of a folder there's probabaly a folder called/mnt/cad/001543/mech/floor1 and since 1 is right by 2...), people forgetting where their folders are and having to use "Find" (this applies to both CLI and GUI, to be fair), etc.
>Wow...
>Here's the breakdown --
>ls >file.txt
>ls -> list directory
>file.txt -> universal capture to file or device
>Now... you learn some words representing
>concepts (in shorthand for typing efficiency)
>and can then apply these concepts to other
>problems. Symbolic reasoning.
It should be noted that symbolic reasoning was used in the Mac example as well. BTW why is List Directory ls? ld would make more sense.
>An example will suffice. If a unix system has
>a sorted list of words available (and they do),
>and you didn't have a command to check the
>spelling of your document, you can (with a
>bit of thought) synthesize a shell command
>to accomplish the spell check.
>How would you accomplish this on a Mac?
A better question is why you would want to accomplish this on a Mac? You could probably do it with Applescript, but but why? Hell, why would you want to do this period? For one thing getting a list of the hundreds of thousands of words in the English Language is going to be a royal pain, for another since you're spelling them you'll just end up making your spellchecker misspell them as well. If you've paid money for either Appleworks or Word (as many Mac-people have) somebody else has done it for you.
>No, the command line is NOT for people who
>are incapable of (1) reasoning and (2) cannot
>learn another symbolic language.
Did you mean to imply that people who use GUIs are stupid?
>Too bad. Life isn't fair. And I admit that
>graphics do have a place. It's limited though.
>Did you post your message in icons?
In a way, after every word is a graphical representation of an idea.;-)
>Give it
>a try. Put your money where your mouth is.
So $2k wasn't enough money where my mouth is?;-)
>My contention is that people have developed
>symbolic language for a damn good reason, and
>that it IS superior to hieroglyphics. No, it
>isn't "transparent" and learning to READ and
>WRITE IS DIFFICULT. It pays off, so give it
>a try.
I think you need a new metaphor, because I am clearly able to read and write. The question was "Is a GUI easier to use then a CLI?" and the fact that you have just used the word "difficult" doesn't help your case.
> ls >file.txt
>Simple, beautiful. Now, to print a directory
>listing...
Arcane, difficult to learn. And you've admitted it.
>Yes, you WILL have to LEARN this.
>If you don't want to bother, then just let it go.
So I'm right (and you admitted it), but I should still let it go. Why?
>Sounds like a complicated task to me. >Where's the ease of use there?
>Here's how I did it:
>1. Type "ls > dirlist.txt"
>2. Press Enter.
Where's the ease-of-use in typing "ls>filename.txt"? When I say ease of use I mean obviousness - no offense, but ls> is so arcane I know I'd refer to the manual the first twenty or thirty times I did this just to make sure I wasn't accidently typing some other extremely arcane command in. CLIs are much simpler to use once you learn them, but so are abacuses. Adding 3,000,900,784,123 to 4,067,000,000,724? Flip a few beads and you're done. Much simpler then typing those numbers in a Calculator a couple of times - clearly simplicity alone is not ease-of-use. Ease-of-learning is also a major factor and a GUI has that hands-down.
>I didn't have to find some hotkey >combination, didn't have to move my hand >from mouse to keyboard and back,
In a way, a hot-key combo. is merely a form of the command line you used - you're command seemed fairly obscure and virtually useless for most people, so I have the feeling they would read the manual straight through to find your command; whereas anybody who's worked in Text Editors on a Mac knows all about cutting and pasting.
BTW, you can hit Command-Tab to switch between apps so if you really hate your mouse you can do this without it.
>didn't have to maneuver through >often-confusing "folders".
Folder, singular. No manuevering.
>I can't help it, I'm prejudiced against GUIs (or >WIMPs, as I call them - Windows, Icons, >Mouse-Pointing - much better acronym for it >IMO). GUI people are always talking about >how their systems are easy to use, then list >dozens of steps to do something I do with a >single command line on my Linux and >FreeBSD boxes.
How long did it take to learn that command? Sure any one command is easily learned, but when learning an OS one has to learn the whole shebang. As I said, an Abacus has fewer steps, but that does neccesarily not make it easier to use then a calculator. One of the reasons GUIs are easy to learn is that you have learn a few commands to do everything. In the sequence above you used the Select All command, followed by a Cut/Paste sequence. The CLI had one obscure cammoand to do that one specific thing. The learning advantage is clearly for the GUI, learn two concepts that everybody has to learn to get stuff done (both of these commands are useful for Word Proccessing) and then you know exactly how to do it without asking anybody, reading the manual, etc. whereas the with the CLI you have to know you'll want to do that beforehand or end breaking out the manual or asking somebody.
>Seems like GUIs are a step backwards to >me.
Depends on what you want to do. I pity the fool who tries to use a GUI as a major ecommerce server. The staff is pad to learn computer stuff so they might as well learn a CLI; but a CLI is not going to work for graphic design, the education market, or the 95% of the population that thinks Intel chips are faster because the pretty number on the box is bigger. Those folks won't have a rat's nest of folders to deal with (maybe the graphics folks would, but they're already visual people so they won't have a lot of fun with LINUX), so learning to type well (much less learning what ls> means) is just not worth it to them.
You'd be suprised how easy it is to nail satelite dishes. Firstly you have the problem of getting the dishes into the country; when you get caught the Chinese will patch up their differences with Russia and we'll be in another international competition for power - hell they might be pissed enough to make good with India. Second, if you actually get the hardware into the country in enough numbers to make a difference (ie enough so more poeple then have the skills to get around the censorship have the dishes), you have to get people to risk Life Imprisonment and death to get information - they already know the general outlines of their governments scumminess, therefore it would be odd if enough people would risk everything to make the diplomatic problems* worth it. Finaly, the party has a huge apparatus to find people breaking their censorship laws, how long do you think it will take the block captains to wise up and start doing house to house searches (hell, the Iraqis use helicopters for this - it wouldn't be too difficult to start doing low loevel passes with the PLA's choppers just to make sure that the dishes that are there get taken down)? The secret police to start interogating everyone who has a dish to find out who distributed it? The distributors to tell the house/person that got every other dish? The extended family to notice the new furniture, and betray their cousins so the party will not suspect the entire family? etc. It sounds good, but there are too many potential areas for failure - the dish can be spotted, the penalties if the dish is spotted can be made so harsh that even if 99.999% are unpottable most are taken down out of fear, the dishes intercepted on their way in, the people that give out the dish will eventually be found and reveal a lot...
Nick
*Probabaly an assault on Taiwan, probabaly the end of independance for Central Asia, possible support for the Taliban, maybe engineer a nuclear exchange between Pakistan and India, etc. Dictatorships take control of information seriously so there's no telling how severely one would respond to your plan. At a minimum there would be much sabre-rattling over the Formosa strait, increased tensions with India (possibly another military conflict there), more support to Pakistan, more support to people we hate (Saddam, North Korea, Casro, etc.), tank the sunshine policy temporarily, etc.
An odd statement, which every actual Chinese person I know would disagree with. For most of that time Taoism was state religion, now if they have any state religion it's the fuck-spirituality brand of Atheism. Peasents used to property of an owner who could do with them as he willed; now if they are property at all they are state property. Since the people are (technically speaking) the state that means every PRC citizen owns every other PRC citizen - in short your attempt to bring slavery into the equation is nothing more then propoganda. The abondonment of baby girls is more of a modern problem (the one-child policy combined with the desire for a son makes a daughter worthless to some) then an anceint one. Let's see, you made three claims that you called "highlights" of Chinese culture, two of which you said were still happening. One was nothing more then half of a legal technicality (the other half not mentioned because it would make the PRC look good), the other did not happen in the past so your conclusion is invalid.
We saved the free world twice? In WW2 you have a point because we beat the Japanese, and our conquest of France and West Germany prevented the Soviets from taking all of Europe; but if you're reffering to WW1 as the other time you are sadly mistaken. The German people were starving to death, but they still occupied a huge chunk of France. Their government collapsed and the folks who took over made peace so the British would let food in. Which China are you referring to as a "Republic"? ROC (aka Taiwan) is, but the mainland has no elections whatsoever.
That's the problem with China. The Chinese execute a few random people for logging on to cnn.com and the rest don't try to get on. Even if they could get inforation, it's doubtful that that information would get them to do anything. The Chinese are not stupid, they already know the Party is lying, oppressive, and murdered people in Tienemen Square; therefore it is fairly silly to assume with information about exactly what the government is lying about, all of the (nonobvious) ways it oppresses, and exactly how they died in 1989 will make ordiunary Chinese act. Especially with information about Tienemen Square - what kind of idiot gets in the way of a government that literally crushes the opposition without military-spec weapons just in case? Any opposition would be out of a love for freedom, and fear (of government reprisals) trumps love every time. So a new student protest happens? The PRC calls in the tanks again. The Chinese lose face in the eyes of the world, but they survived it once. Actual penalties on the global stage would probabaly be minimal as the US, EU, etc. do not want China to align with Russia so penalties would be the minimum they think they can get away with domestically.
Nick
China is a huge market, and they also have a 3,000,000 man army in the middle of one of the most important areas of the world. So both business interests and the State Department love the PRC Communism and all - if business didn't they lose out on 1.2 Billion customers, and if State didn't our only option to maintain influence in the region would be India (not great because the Chinese have India hemmed in with Pakistan on one side and Nepal soon - India has few options therefore they are not the best freind to have). On the other hand, the people who most care about Cuba are "refugees" from Castro's regime (I use the term loosely because this is the only "refugee" movement I've heard of that's upper-middle class), who have a lot of money to give politicians and a lot of influence in a pivotal state. Combine this with the obvious rhetorical advantages of being tough on Communism, the fact that if the refugees get their stuff back the US literally owns Cuba. In summary there are numerous reasons to court China - Russia giving us shit? With the PRC in our corner confronting us becomes very high risk. North Korea invades the South? The Chinese can pretty much call the troops back to Pyongyong. The Cubans are easy targets, lucrative targets politically, and can't do much to hurt anybody therefore they get put in the same boat as Saddam while a worse government gets courted by the President.
The problem with this reasoning is your statement that people have a knack for overcoming oppression is not true. How long did the Roman Empire last? Egypt? China (5,000 years and no Western-style freedom, ever)? Russia? Right now freedom is winning over oppression, but if history has told us one thing it's that everything changes. So freedom's on top now? If the Religous Right has it's way that will stop. If the Arab world unites it could stop, etc. People have a knack for getting what they want, but if you make a sufficiantly grisly example of those who want freedom the survivors stop wanting freedom. I predict the Chinese will find a way to block people from seeing what they don't want the people to see - it will be ironclad enough (and backed up with harsh penalties for people who break the encryption) that nobody will bother getting around it.
It's not that difficult to control the internet; the government controls the pipes. The only way sto get on through a nonCommie service is make one and hide it from the government , eat the long distance charges to another country, or use a satelite service. These are difficult - getting people to try to set up a shadow ISP would be hard given the Party's actions in 1989, and then guaranteeing that only "good" guys get on would be impossible (your best freind might turn you in - in a Communist economy it pays big to have the government like you); a satelite, but the government can do helicopter sweeps to find those (Iraq does this for TV antennas - can't have the people knowing Saddam lost), and your neighbors would probabaly turn you in to the authorities. Even if they got uncensored 'net access, the middle class can fight all it wants, the government has 3,000,000 soldiers. So even if some miracle happens and all of the middle class learns about the greatness of Capitalism, what do they do? Nonviolent protests recently ended in a massacre, even the old people of China are under attack for organizing period. People can demand change all they want, they can know about changes all they want, they can ask for those changes, but it won't do much but get them killed.
Slashdot Mirror
>"ls" is on page 24 of Unix for Dummies, the same page that reminds you to
;-)
/mnt/cad/001543/mech/floor1 and since 1 is right by 2...), people forgetting where their folders are and having to use "Find" (this applies to both CLI and GUI, to be fair), etc.
>press Enter at the end of any command line. The > redirector is on page 62,
>the page after the section where it tells you what a directory is and how to >create one.
Oh f*ck I hate it when I prove that I don't know everyting...
>You keep all your files in one folder? If I did that with the CAD files at
>work, every designer would spend half his day looking for the file he wants
>to edit, and it would take 10 minutes just to pull up a listing of all the files.
>We have something like 800 jobs on the server, each with 10-50 AutoCAD
>drawings. That would be an administration nightmare if not for hierarchial
>directory structure (/mnt/cad/001543/mech/floor2/hvac.dwg for example).
I assumed the folder is already open. Your example assumed that the proper directory was already selected so fairness requires that the right folder be open already. If we assume it isn't, add the possibility of typos getting in the way of your command (possibly executing the command on the wrong folder - in your example of a folder there's probabaly a folder called
Nick
>Wow...
;-)
;-)
>Here's the breakdown --
>ls >file.txt
>ls -> list directory
>file.txt -> universal capture to file or device
>Now... you learn some words representing
>concepts (in shorthand for typing efficiency)
>and can then apply these concepts to other
>problems. Symbolic reasoning.
It should be noted that symbolic reasoning was used in the Mac example as well. BTW why is List Directory ls? ld would make more sense.
>An example will suffice. If a unix system has
>a sorted list of words available (and they do),
>and you didn't have a command to check the
>spelling of your document, you can (with a
>bit of thought) synthesize a shell command
>to accomplish the spell check.
>How would you accomplish this on a Mac?
A better question is why you would want to accomplish this on a Mac? You could probably do it with Applescript, but but why? Hell, why would you want to do this period? For one thing getting a list of the hundreds of thousands of words in the English Language is going to be a royal pain, for another since you're spelling them you'll just end up making your spellchecker misspell them as well. If you've paid money for either Appleworks or Word (as many Mac-people have) somebody else has done it for you.
>No, the command line is NOT for people who
>are incapable of (1) reasoning and (2) cannot
>learn another symbolic language.
Did you mean to imply that people who use GUIs are stupid?
>Too bad. Life isn't fair. And I admit that
>graphics do have a place. It's limited though.
>Did you post your message in icons?
In a way, after every word is a graphical representation of an idea.
>Give it
>a try. Put your money where your mouth is.
So $2k wasn't enough money where my mouth is?
>My contention is that people have developed
>symbolic language for a damn good reason, and
>that it IS superior to hieroglyphics. No, it
>isn't "transparent" and learning to READ and
>WRITE IS DIFFICULT. It pays off, so give it
>a try.
I think you need a new metaphor, because I am clearly able to read and write. The question was "Is a GUI easier to use then a CLI?" and the fact that you have just used the word "difficult" doesn't help your case.
> ls >file.txt
>Simple, beautiful. Now, to print a directory
>listing...
Arcane, difficult to learn. And you've admitted it.
>Yes, you WILL have to LEARN this.
>If you don't want to bother, then just let it go.
So I'm right (and you admitted it), but I should still let it go. Why?
Nick
>Sounds like a complicated task to me. >Where's the ease of use there?
>Here's how I did it:
>1. Type "ls > dirlist.txt"
>2. Press Enter.
Where's the ease-of-use in typing "ls>filename.txt"? When I say ease of use I mean obviousness - no offense, but ls> is so arcane I know I'd refer to the manual the first twenty or thirty times I did this just to make sure I wasn't accidently typing some other extremely arcane command in. CLIs are much simpler to use once you learn them, but so are abacuses. Adding 3,000,900,784,123 to 4,067,000,000,724? Flip a few beads and you're done. Much simpler then typing those numbers in a Calculator a couple of times - clearly simplicity alone is not ease-of-use. Ease-of-learning is also a major factor and a GUI has that hands-down.
>I didn't have to find some hotkey >combination, didn't have to move my hand >from mouse to keyboard and back,
In a way, a hot-key combo. is merely a form of the command line you used - you're command seemed fairly obscure and virtually useless for most people, so I have the feeling they would read the manual straight through to find your command; whereas anybody who's worked in Text Editors on a Mac knows all about cutting and pasting.
BTW, you can hit Command-Tab to switch between apps so if you really hate your mouse you can do this without it.
>didn't have to maneuver through >often-confusing "folders".
Folder, singular. No manuevering.
>I can't help it, I'm prejudiced against GUIs (or >WIMPs, as I call them - Windows, Icons, >Mouse-Pointing - much better acronym for it >IMO). GUI people are always talking about >how their systems are easy to use, then list >dozens of steps to do something I do with a >single command line on my Linux and >FreeBSD boxes.
How long did it take to learn that command? Sure any one command is easily learned, but when learning an OS one has to learn the whole shebang. As I said, an Abacus has fewer steps, but that does neccesarily not make it easier to use then a calculator. One of the reasons GUIs are easy to learn is that you have learn a few commands to do everything. In the sequence above you used the Select All command, followed by a Cut/Paste sequence. The CLI had one obscure cammoand to do that one specific thing. The learning advantage is clearly for the GUI, learn two concepts that everybody has to learn to get stuff done (both of these commands are useful for Word Proccessing) and then you know exactly how to do it without asking anybody, reading the manual, etc. whereas the with the CLI you have to know you'll want to do that beforehand or end breaking out the manual or asking somebody.
>Seems like GUIs are a step backwards to >me.
Depends on what you want to do. I pity the fool who tries to use a GUI as a major ecommerce server. The staff is pad to learn computer stuff so they might as well learn a CLI; but a CLI is not going to work for graphic design, the education market, or the 95% of the population that thinks Intel chips are faster because the pretty number on the box is bigger. Those folks won't have a rat's nest of folders to deal with (maybe the graphics folks would, but they're already visual people so they won't have a lot of fun with LINUX), so learning to type well (much less learning what ls> means) is just not worth it to them.
Nick
You'd be suprised how easy it is to nail satelite dishes. Firstly you have the problem of getting the dishes into the country; when you get caught the Chinese will patch up their differences with Russia and we'll be in another international competition for power - hell they might be pissed enough to make good with India. Second, if you actually get the hardware into the country in enough numbers to make a difference (ie enough so more poeple then have the skills to get around the censorship have the dishes), you have to get people to risk Life Imprisonment and death to get information - they already know the general outlines of their governments scumminess, therefore it would be odd if enough people would risk everything to make the diplomatic problems* worth it. Finaly, the party has a huge apparatus to find people breaking their censorship laws, how long do you think it will take the block captains to wise up and start doing house to house searches (hell, the Iraqis use helicopters for this - it wouldn't be too difficult to start doing low loevel passes with the PLA's choppers just to make sure that the dishes that are there get taken down)? The secret police to start interogating everyone who has a dish to find out who distributed it? The distributors to tell the house/person that got every other dish? The extended family to notice the new furniture, and betray their cousins so the party will not suspect the entire family? etc. It sounds good, but there are too many potential areas for failure - the dish can be spotted, the penalties if the dish is spotted can be made so harsh that even if 99.999% are unpottable most are taken down out of fear, the dishes intercepted on their way in, the people that give out the dish will eventually be found and reveal a lot...
Nick
*Probabaly an assault on Taiwan, probabaly the end of independance for Central Asia, possible support for the Taliban, maybe engineer a nuclear exchange between Pakistan and India, etc. Dictatorships take control of information seriously so there's no telling how severely one would respond to your plan. At a minimum there would be much sabre-rattling over the Formosa strait, increased tensions with India (possibly another military conflict there), more support to Pakistan, more support to people we hate (Saddam, North Korea, Casro, etc.), tank the sunshine policy temporarily, etc.
"In 4000 years nothing has changed in China"
An odd statement, which every actual Chinese person I know would disagree with. For most of that time Taoism was state religion, now if they have any state religion it's the fuck-spirituality brand of Atheism. Peasents used to property of an owner who could do with them as he willed; now if they are property at all they are state property. Since the people are (technically speaking) the state that means every PRC citizen owns every other PRC citizen - in short your attempt to bring slavery into the equation is nothing more then propoganda. The abondonment of baby girls is more of a modern problem (the one-child policy combined with the desire for a son makes a daughter worthless to some) then an anceint one. Let's see, you made three claims that you called "highlights" of Chinese culture, two of which you said were still happening. One was nothing more then half of a legal technicality (the other half not mentioned because it would make the PRC look good), the other did not happen in the past so your conclusion is invalid.
Nick
We saved the free world twice? In WW2 you have a point because we beat the Japanese, and our conquest of France and West Germany prevented the Soviets from taking all of Europe; but if you're reffering to WW1 as the other time you are sadly mistaken. The German people were starving to death, but they still occupied a huge chunk of France. Their government collapsed and the folks who took over made peace so the British would let food in. Which China are you referring to as a "Republic"? ROC (aka Taiwan) is, but the mainland has no elections whatsoever.
Nick
You know what th funniest part is? He actually believes that shit.
Nick
That's the problem with China. The Chinese execute a few random people for logging on to cnn.com and the rest don't try to get on. Even if they could get inforation, it's doubtful that that information would get them to do anything. The Chinese are not stupid, they already know the Party is lying, oppressive, and murdered people in Tienemen Square; therefore it is fairly silly to assume with information about exactly what the government is lying about, all of the (nonobvious) ways it oppresses, and exactly how they died in 1989 will make ordiunary Chinese act. Especially with information about Tienemen Square - what kind of idiot gets in the way of a government that literally crushes the opposition without military-spec weapons just in case? Any opposition would be out of a love for freedom, and fear (of government reprisals) trumps love every time. So a new student protest happens? The PRC calls in the tanks again. The Chinese lose face in the eyes of the world, but they survived it once. Actual penalties on the global stage would probabaly be minimal as the US, EU, etc. do not want China to align with Russia so penalties would be the minimum they think they can get away with domestically. Nick
China is a huge market, and they also have a 3,000,000 man army in the middle of one of the most important areas of the world. So both business interests and the State Department love the PRC Communism and all - if business didn't they lose out on 1.2 Billion customers, and if State didn't our only option to maintain influence in the region would be India (not great because the Chinese have India hemmed in with Pakistan on one side and Nepal soon - India has few options therefore they are not the best freind to have). On the other hand, the people who most care about Cuba are "refugees" from Castro's regime (I use the term loosely because this is the only "refugee" movement I've heard of that's upper-middle class), who have a lot of money to give politicians and a lot of influence in a pivotal state. Combine this with the obvious rhetorical advantages of being tough on Communism, the fact that if the refugees get their stuff back the US literally owns Cuba. In summary there are numerous reasons to court China - Russia giving us shit? With the PRC in our corner confronting us becomes very high risk. North Korea invades the South? The Chinese can pretty much call the troops back to Pyongyong. The Cubans are easy targets, lucrative targets politically, and can't do much to hurt anybody therefore they get put in the same boat as Saddam while a worse government gets courted by the President.
Nick
The problem with this reasoning is your statement that people have a knack for overcoming oppression is not true. How long did the Roman Empire last? Egypt? China (5,000 years and no Western-style freedom, ever)? Russia? Right now freedom is winning over oppression, but if history has told us one thing it's that everything changes. So freedom's on top now? If the Religous Right has it's way that will stop. If the Arab world unites it could stop, etc. People have a knack for getting what they want, but if you make a sufficiantly grisly example of those who want freedom the survivors stop wanting freedom. I predict the Chinese will find a way to block people from seeing what they don't want the people to see - it will be ironclad enough (and backed up with harsh penalties for people who break the encryption) that nobody will bother getting around it.
Nick
It's not that difficult to control the internet; the government controls the pipes. The only way sto get on through a nonCommie service is make one and hide it from the government , eat the long distance charges to another country, or use a satelite service. These are difficult - getting people to try to set up a shadow ISP would be hard given the Party's actions in 1989, and then guaranteeing that only "good" guys get on would be impossible (your best freind might turn you in - in a Communist economy it pays big to have the government like you); a satelite, but the government can do helicopter sweeps to find those (Iraq does this for TV antennas - can't have the people knowing Saddam lost), and your neighbors would probabaly turn you in to the authorities. Even if they got uncensored 'net access, the middle class can fight all it wants, the government has 3,000,000 soldiers. So even if some miracle happens and all of the middle class learns about the greatness of Capitalism, what do they do? Nonviolent protests recently ended in a massacre, even the old people of China are under attack for organizing period. People can demand change all they want, they can know about changes all they want, they can ask for those changes, but it won't do much but get them killed.
Nick