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Great Firewall Of China Marches Forward
geophile writes: "This article in Salon says that China will be building its own 'very own information superhighway.'" The story basically repeats the optimistic-sounding promises of the Chinese government that the new system will be faster, safer, brighter and fight cavities, too, though it does mention in passing that the Chinese "government routinely blocks Web sites of foreign news organizations and groups it opposes." Speaking practically, how easily can the worldwide dataflow be arrested in a country as populous and geographically diffuse as China?
I don't care HOW large the country is, the number of actual links going into the country are fairly limited, and can easily be restricted by restricting all communication across the boundry except for a set of government controled proxies which handle filtering the traffic and insuring that nothing naughty gets through.
Nicholas C Weaver
nweaver@cs.berkeley.edu
Test your net with Netalyzr
Evan - needs to hit preview before submitting
I wouldn't say that it would be easy, but if you limit the number of pipes available, and have monitoring software at each, you have pretty much blocked what the ruling party fears to be "contrary" to the party beliefs.
PS: Doesn't Carnivore and Echelon do just this? But instead of blocking just does a "cat incoming.mail |
This might get labeled as flamebait but hear me out...
Every time there is an article about the internet in China, there are a ton of posts here on Slashdot about how bad it is that the Chinese government wants to control the access.
It's China. It's the Chinese communist government. The fact that they are furthering the exact same restrictive policies that they have performed for decades is not news.
When I was in China a couple months ago I found it very easy to see sites like CNN.com by using anonymous proxies. Some of them even used secure SSL encryption and the Chinese firewall didn't detect anything. The sites came up fine.
I have my doubts about enforcing something like censorship on the net.
-----------
Resume
Football Sports Contest - Win $500 for having an e
1. Chinese players will no longer be joining us on B.Net for games of Starcraft.
2. The Chinese will have lag free games of Starcraft using their own network of fsg servers.
Hell, I'd build my own internet for that...
--
Peace,
Lord Omlette
ICQ# 77863057
[o]_O
I don't think the data can necessarily be easily arrested, but it can be monitored. A few showy 'examples' can be made of people to keep others in line, sort of the way the U.S. Internal Revenue Service announces prosecutions during tax season. Besides the governmental monitoring, there will also be the neighbors. There are 'block captains' who keep tabs on who's up to what (one of the ways China enforces its draconian "one-child" policy). I'm sure there will be ways around the blockades, but anyone wanting to access forbidden information is going to have to want it pretty badly. As a point of comparison, think of possessing a gun in New York City. It's possible, but the consequences of discovery could be dire.
I don't have the exact figures off the top of my head anymore but sometime around 97 or so, China's main internet links to the rest of the world were two 45Mbps links, one from Beijing and one from Shanghai. Almost all outgoing traffic went through these two pipes and were filtered by the ISP in charge. There were a few other small links, like 1.5 Mbps or 128kbps, but these were usually owned by a university or government organization and traffic was rarely routed through them. The general populace used those two main pipes out of China and it sure got congested during peak hours.
Since then, I'm sure more bandwidth has been added but it is still all under the control of the (government controlled) ISPs. At these chokepoints, you can implement all the firewalling and filtering you care for.
How about worrying about our own problems and let them handle their own? Stop being the internet police. If they chose to set up a country wide firewall then that is their choice and I respect it. Communism and free speech don't go along well.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
If you want to be serious, look at a corporation. You may have 5,000 people all working for the same company, but only one internet link. You set the filter/firewall there and you've got control of what come in from the outside world (supposedly).
China vouches for security through obscurity. By keeping you from seeing something, they think that you won't know it's there. But it's rediculous. It's like pretending that a security flaw in a computer doesn't exist. If you don't tell a person it's not there, then they won't find it. We all know how wrong that is.
The way I see it, China'd be better off to just let its citizens see everything. They'll enjoy their little "pr0n" sites at home, read the news once in a while, and be content with their lives as always. All else being equal, you're most comfortable where you are. Why? Because people hate change. Hell, I'll bet at least half of the people in China would think that the way our government runs is ridiculous.
The summary: People hate being held back, so let them see what they want and a week later they won't care anymore.
CAP THAT KARMA!
Moderators: -1, nested, oldest first!
SIG: HUP
I just got back on Wednesday from a journey around China. I attempted to use the Internet service in from the business center of the Guilin Sheraton Hotel, and barely downloaded a single page of html. This was google, and after 7 minutes of waiting. Images never downloaded for some reason.
I was able to confirm my understanding that all HTTP traffic in China is channeled through centralized filtering proxy servers. It can't even be called Internet Access. The proxy server would not handle anything other than HTTP and SMTP(which didn't work when I tried to send a message). I wanted to try using PuTTY to do ssh to my server at home in order to check up on email and other things, but this was impossible, even when I tried to configure the client to use the proxy.
There is no way for inhabitants of China to do normal IP routing between each other and the rest of the world. I suppose one could set something up to tunnel IP over HTTP, but other than that, they're out of luck. I would have rather had a straight ol' 2400 baud PPP connection to my U.S. ISP.
I understand that the Chinese government has good totalitarian reasons for censoring the Net, (although they are moving towards reform) but the system they use should be passive, and not involve tcp proxy servers.
I've seen systems that can simply monitor and replace ethernet packets that contain discedent HTTP data.
Its something the Government could easily do, but it would seriously affect it's usefulness and defeat the purpose of constructing this net in the first place.
I predict The Party will be unlikely to impose severe censorship, once they consider its benefits, and the internet will be a great enabler of positive change in The Peoples Republic.
However, after this year's budget is passed, they will not be able to access porn and other sensitive material, because the satellite link will have censorWare on it. Oh well, looks like the US and China deserve each other after all.
Common, it doesnt matter what firewall rules you impose there will be a way around it, all you need is someone co-operating on both sides of a firewall and you can tunnel through it.
I thought EVERYONE knew filters dont work.
no... it ain't lame flame.. you have a point and at the very least you are not spouting garbage like the anoncows (misogynistic, rascist, fascist, whatever they can manage to puke up out of their sick minds). but China is an odd mix of oligarchy/autocracy/socialism with a dollop of free marketism thrown in just so that the whole country does not go down the tubes... i would hardly call it communist, i really can't think of what the hell to properly call it other than what i have already... it's a disgraceful gov't and there are many levels and degrees of disgraceful gov'ts in this world so shoot me.
I use to be of the same opinion.
The ISP where I worked was desperately
trying to get away from going through
the phone company. Even after the break
up of ATT so many years ago, the phone
companies still have virtual monopolies
in the zone they have control in. This
is because they still control the
infrastructure.
We found the fastest way to circumvent
the infrastructure was to go wireless.
However, in China there would still be
the need to have physical towers that
the government could pinpoint.
Take it the next step and have a wireless
satellite system. I still think they
could target the customer base. You have
to collect your fees in some manner and
I am sure it would be easier for the
government to track the financial transactions
then to go after wireless satellites.
Anyways, the situation now is definately
a tragedy and food for thought.
Considering 95% of the population doesnt even have phones.
Frank W. Miller
Can anyone who's recently been in China describe how internet access is really like? Who are the ISPs run by? is there a government run firewall? where does that firewall sit? Are there ways to circumvent it?
thanks,
--dave
If I use my phone for a long distance conversation, it just as easily can be used to transfer data. And it does not have to be audible data too (ADSL) There is always a way to pass information in an encrypted format through existing media.
You can't handle the truth.
They can do it, and it is easier than it looks.
All they have to do, is block everything, but few (can be few thousands) sites.
Perfect censoship. Anything outside thouse few trusted doesn't even exists.
And if you have control over the gateways - there is no problem to do that.
As of monitory content inside this thing, it is
more difficult, but much easier to enforce on the physical level.
Not that I really need to repeat it for the
Sneaking "subversive" data past this firewall is a good cause, worthy of the efforts of the Rubberhose Project and other open source initiatives designed to increase personal privacy and freedom. To all of those developers out there who are working on encryption or steganography software, these (Chinese citizens) are the people who really need your help.
A quote from the Xinhua report:
Notice that the needs of the people are not mentioned. The only legitimate purpose of government is to serve its people.
Everybody has the right to do what they want. Well, not when it's something I don't want.
--
Free Mac Mini
Any government arrogant enough to think that they can block EVERYTHING is delusional.
Only a communist totalitarian government, that is so in love with itself, and drunk on it's own invincibility could possibly think they can do what the Chineese are attempting.
All I need to see to reinforce my conservative, individualist beliefs in Western Civilization is stuff like this. You see, we don't need to HIDE everything from our citizens to keep them from discovering what bill of goods Mao sold them.
At least, for now... Unfortunately, the USA is sliding towards such a system, and is besides China, the biggest enemy of free speech on the internet right now. I hope things change. Because I know for a fact, when the jackboots start rounding up the free thinkers with the "wrong" ideas, I'll be one of them.
=== The price of freedom is eternal vigilance
Spoken: The world today seems absolutely crackers.
With nuclear bombs to blow us all sky high.
There are fools and idiots sitting on the trigger.
It's depressing, and it's senseless, and that's why...
Intro: I like Chinese,
I like Chinese,
They only come up to your knees,
Yet they're always friendly and they're ready to please.
Verse: I like Chinese,
I like Chinese,
There's nine hundred million of them in the world today,
You'd better learn to like them, that's what I say.
Chorus: I like Chinese,
I like Chinese,
They come from a long way overseas,
But they're cute and they're cuddly, and they're ready to please.
Verse: I like chinese food,
The waiters never are rude,
Think of the many things they've done to impress,
There's Maoism, Taoism, I Ching and chess.
Chorus: So I like Chinese,
I like Chinese,
I like their tiny little trees,
Their Zen, their ping-pong, their
yin and yang-ese.
Verse: I like Chinese thought,
The wisdom that Confucious taught,
If Darwin is anything to shout about,
The Chinese will survive us all without any doubt.
Chorus: So I like Chinese,
I like Chinese,
They only come up to your knees,
Yet they're wise and they're witty, and they're ready to please.
Verse: (in Chinese)
Chorus: I like Chinese,
I like Chinese,
Their food is guaranteed to please,
A fourteen, a seven, a nine and lychees.
Chorus: I like Chinese,
I like Chinese,
I like their tiny little trees,
Their Zen, their ping-pong, their yin and yang-ese.
Fade: I like Chinese,
I like Chinese...
The ease of restriction in China is due largely to the fact that internet access is really avaliable only on a limited basis, in large urban areas. It's not at all like the States.
Lameness filter encountered. Post aborted.
Well, Is it so supprising this would happen? Canada's new network, our own Internet-2, euorpe doing a new network, of course china is gona do it. anyway, heres some info I found out and about in my past readings of china's network:
a .htm
b jr98-44-30.html
9 8Nov/bjr98-47s-15.html
http://www.chinaeconomicreview.com/htm/2000cbh339
http://dawning.iist.unu.edu/china/bjreview/98Nov/
http://www.bjreview.com.cn/BeijingReview/Spanish/
Two infinite things: your stupidity and mine. But I'm not sure about the latter. If my sig offends you, I'm sorry.
I was in China in August. Off of my uncle's business connection, I got cnn.com, and msnbc quite easily(as well as a bunch of hardware sites.) Slow, but it worked. But the first site I went to, nytimes.com, was banned. Wierd.
It's indisputable - Chinese leaders are simply assholes. But they do it well -- if someone tried this anywhere else, there'd be rebellion. The Chinese seem to be well controlled.
Mike Roberto
- GAIM: MicroBerto
Berto
---end of political statement---
Hearing that the Chinese want to develop their own Internet style backbone reminds me of the history of our own Internet. It was NOT established so you could share your pr0n with users around the world. The Internet was made to serve the purposes of the American government.
What the Chinese government wishes to use their national infrastructure for is none of the West's business.
While it would be nice if this new network would be compatible with the Internet, and it may lead to better communications between cultures that are very different (so we can see each other without the tainted vision of the medias), it is really up to China to decide what their money is being spent on.
ADSL works above and below the frequencies that can be detected by a human ear. Unless you have equipment to search for such frequencies, you will not hear anything suspicious, especially if someone is having a meaningful conversation in the normal frequencies...
You can't handle the truth.
OK, I'll bite (I wouldn't normally, but this stupid thing is at 3 now). I'm assuming you are from Canada. You can't judge someone else's culture unless you have lived there a significant portion of your life. My guess is that you didn't grow up in China, so how can you possibly judge this culture by a free country's perspective. I'm from the US, so I don't know how the chinese people feel about this. However, my guess is that they are used to their form of government and don't have the extreme view that you believe they do. Just a thought.
There's one simple way I can think of to stop this kind of thing.
If they want to stop all politically objectionable sites, and presumably sites that link to them, all you have to do is start a 'Stop Internet Censorship in China' Colored Ribbon Campaign. If it becomes as popular as the blue ribbon was, there simply won't be any pages to speak of that don't speak negatively (at least a little) of the chinese government.
lsmvcprm.com, Tools for geek power
Damn it!! Why are there still first posters? Why do so many people waste their lives trying to get first post, while all the other spam/troll "favorites" have died out??? Meept, Hot Grits, John Katz bashing, moderation system bashing, and Natalie Portman are all now quite rare troll topics. Beowulf is still moderately strong, but it too is fading. So why the explitive-deleted is first post still alive? Die damn it. Look in the mirror, and recognize those eye-bags that stretch to your jaw for what they are....
I've asked this question once to a visiting student.
:)
Just get yourself a shell account in Hong Kong, and run a slip connection. Or look for a Windows webproxy... they're usually unsecured and don't have logging (logging has a tendancy to lag inferior OS's like Microsoft's
Heck, if they block everything well enough, they could resort to that TCP/IP over DNS trick posted here a while back.
Of course, if the government fails to maintain hold on power, it won't become a pipe-dream democracy. It will probably be controlled by the same corporations owned by the China goverment... who will promptly buy out all of the national press (much like the USA with self-sensoring networks).
If things REALLY look radical in China, they could just impose an Electoral College. It's a time-tested technique for maintaining a duopoly.
Posted anonymously, because my name is in my email address, and someday my employer could always be bought out by a foreign corporation...
All major foreign news sites were banned wherever I tried, except in Shanghai. Also, there was CNN on hotel cable. Seems like Shanghai is the most liberal city in China.
If so, try plugging in your phone without using one of those filters. You hear all kinds of wierd machine noises...
Comment removed based on user account deletion
thank you CNN clee-tuhs
Damn 31337 m0ng015!!!!
--hongpong.com
1.Entering computer information networks involved with national affairs, national defense or advanced technology
2.Spreading slander and rumors or publicizing harmful information on the Internet
3.Stealing or disclosing state, intelligence or military secrets through the Internet
4.Inciting ethnic hatred and discrimination or sabotaging national unity through the Internet
5.Organizing a cult and keeping in touch with cult members, or undermining the enforcement of state laws and regulations through the Internet
6.Selling fake or substandard products, or advertising goods and services in a deceitful way through the Internet
7.Damaging the reputation of a business or a commodity through the Internet
8.Infringing upon the intellectual property of others through the Internet
9.Fabricating false information affecting securities and futures trading or otherwise disturbing the financial order through the Internet
10.Setting up pornographic Web sites or Web pages, providing access to pornographic Web sites, or spreading pornographic books, movies, video products and photos on the Internet
11.Insulting or defaming other people on the Internet
12.Illegally intercepting, altering or deleting others' e-mail or data, infringing upon citizens' freedom and confidentiality of communication, and
13.Committing theft, fraud and atrocities through the Internet.
Considering some of these laws it should come as no surprise they would attempt something like this. What strikes some odd notes is the buddhists practices in China which teach so much about life. Its pretty sad.
So let everyone rant on about Chinese people who can go about using proxy servers but the fact of the matter is not too many Chinese people will risk going to jail trying to circumvent issues. Sure there will be those who will attempt to circmvent the systems there, but I highly doubt anyone will be risking penalties.
Circumventing Carnivore
360 degrees of Karma
Its the ass of the year. I'm glad to see idiots like you still exist it makes me glad to know that minoroties have come so far and ignorance such as yours can remind us when we forget this.
Maybe you should re-read your history and check where you came from since I'm almost sure somewhere down the line you were intermixed with some minority group like it or not.
You should humble yourself to life and get a grip on your anger. Even while this may be a joke and I sure as hell love to joke, you have issues. White, black, chinese, Indian, really wouldn't make a difference to me, I determine how, where my life goes and the choices which would allow me better opportunities in life, not some political based `illuminist' theory based group who's catapulting minorities to save face.
Color blind
360 degrees of Karma
I remember some time ago reading messageboards used to exchange IP's to open proxy servers on the "outside" that they could use to bypass the filters, is that still going on?
--------
How can one control data? By funnelling it through a few discrete points and heavily controlling what gets transmitted, which is exactly what Sun Microsystems is doing for China (they have the contract.)
By filtering what ports are used, analyzing transmitted content, forbidding & prosecuting use of cryptography (with a distinct lack of due process) etc. China call well control internet use within it's borders.
China has one of the lowest penetration rates of telephones in the world. Computers are generally only available limited circumstances. The percentage of computers with internet access is even lower, not something one sees in private homes of even the wealthy. Under these heavily controlled and highly accountable conditions can you imagine much "unauthorized use"? Particularly considering the possible repercussions?
Information wants to be free, and yes the 'net does route around censorship, but when one controls all of the lines one controls all of the routes around. Even in cases where material makes it though the dangers of being caught with it make it unlikely to propagate far.
Sure there are ways around it but we're not talking US school kids getting access to porn; we're talking ruined careers at best, an involuntary organ donation or a bullet through the back of the head at worst. As time goes on opportunities for 'getting lost in the flow' become greater but so does the technical sophistication of those monitoring use.
I'm sure the expat. Chinese news sites have guesstimates but from all accounts I've seen information flow within the PRC is indeed tightly controlled and by-and-large remaining so. General information gets through but politically sensitive material seems to be rather effectively smothered. Indeed the CIA World Factbook 2000 ed.(generally fairly good about numbers) lists China as having only 3 ISPs.
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
Nor did many Nazi leaders.
Censorship can prevent life-saving information from being spread. Much of the overpopulation of the last 2000 years can be attributed to lack of knowledge about contraception, which has been (and still is) actively censored by religious pressure groups.
The Dark Ages were the best example for the killing power of censorship. During that time, the church held a monopoly on the truth -- and the consequence was that most knowledge of ancient times was lost or suppressed, and science stagnated, which was especially important with regard to the medical profession, which practically did not exist. I have a huge file on the absurd rituals and practices that were used to "heal" people in the Dark Ages. Demons were believed to cause all illnesses, and those who strayed from this belief were outcasts and often persecuted. As you may know, exorcism is still practiced by the Catholic Church, even in the Vatican.
The fact that repressive governments like China can remain in power and continue to kill people is also a direct consequence of the fact that they censor information that could mean change. Censorship prevents change, and change can save lives.
Recently on German TV, there was a documentary about a US sect that prevented the use of traditional medicine. They showed a cemetery where all the victims of this irrationality, many of them children, were buried. Surely these people would love it if nobody had access to this information. By trying to pass legislation that would have outlawed a lot of drug-related information on the Net, the US gov't would have done the first step in that direction.
Always remember: Where they burn books, people are next. Censorship kills. Sooner or later.
--
I really don't get it. China kills a bunch of students in Tiannamen, is a ruthless communist dictatorship, and yet the USA has, at every opportunity, sucked up so bad to them.
Why doesn't the USA treat China like it treats Cuba?
Why is it China gets preferred trading status with the USA, while Cuba gets an embargo?
It seems to me that the USA _wants_ China to have a shitty government.
"Free" is used relatively here - Sometimes, in the light of things such as the DMCA, we forget how much freedom we /do/ have, such as the freedom to move around the country at will (with a few notable exceptions). Freedom to listen to music which has antiestablishment messages without worry of government-sanctioned censorship. Freedom to complain about our government.
The internet is redrawing geography. It is a world mostly without borders and without government. It is for all intents and purposes an exercise in anarchy. It does have its positives (Unlimited freedom) and occasional negatives (Violations of other peoples freedoms.) China's moves to censor the internet may very well work, in the short term. But humans have a nack for eventually overcoming opression, whatever its form may be. The natural world works by slow evolution - slowly, some of the opressed of today (the majority of the country, im assuming) will enter into their government, affecting change, slowly but surely.
The "new geography" of the internet may allow this change to happen much quicker - the electronic world works by rapid microevolution. From this outsiders view, the elder chineese are comfortable in their way of life - they view the world differently than their children. Some of their children view the world with youthful vigor and rebellion - they see the grass on the other side of the ocean, and see that it is greener - or rather, it is different. They want that to be part of their world. They will probably grow up to be part of the machine - but a slightly "flawed" part of that machine, one that may slowly affect the change to democracy, or a completely different, better system of government, in the future.
Just my two cents.
Democracy is the worst system of government created, except for all others - Winston Churchill
Do you mind explaining exactly what "discedent HTTP data" is? I'd be curious to know how a system could detect if an ethernet packet contains discedent data.
---
From the xdsl FAQ:
[3.1]How does xDSL work?
xDSL utilizes more of the bandwidth on copper phone lines than what is currently used for plain old telephone service (POTS). By utilizing frequencies above the telephone bandwidth (300Hz to 3,200Hz), xDSL can encode more data to achieve higher data rates than would otherwise be possible in the restricted frequency range of a POTS network. In order to utilize the frequencies above the voice audio spectrum, xDSL equipment must be installed on both ends and the copper wire in between must be able to sustain the higher frequencies for the entire route. This means that bandwidth limiting devices such as loading coils must be removed or avoided.
--
Artix
Your Linux, your init.
Cuba is tiny. Economically worthless. China is the world's largest market. With their markets opening up more and more, they are the most lucrative place on the planet to do business.
-
its just your typical 15 year old with no friends or social skills to speak of. He (and it almost certainly is a he) looks for attention in any way he can get it. Our socially-lacking speciment here probably is infatuated with shock-rock/rap bands because they get tons of attention that he doesnt with their "shocking" lyrics. Such monkeys are best dealt with by pointing out their lack of social skills.
-
TCP/IP is your friend. :)
http://www.nocrew.org/software/httptunnel.html
While i normally don't pay any attention to trolls, i feel the need to reply that napster is a business, and not a government. For the purposes of the above post, i was speaking in terms of the /government/. If you can find information showing me the government is forcing napster to remove any nazi-related music, i'd be glad to listen - or send it ot the ACLU, even. Thank you, goodnight.
My Main observation is to take this into the larger context.
As I said earlier, we seem to be walking in a directions where the internet is being divided into large areas of fenced in territory owned by large corporations and other entities, with small time operators getting the left overs. What makes this all the more believable are little details like this mornings AP news story about mainland China's announcement that they are building their own information superhighway. To quote from the story:
it is very easy to take a short range cynical look at all of this. And it is very easy to "poo-poo" all this, and to say that it will never happen here, or that it will never be effective, that it won't last.But the problem is that we are walking in the direction of a fragmented segmented internet. We seem to be walking in a directions where the internet is being divided into large areas of fenced in territory owned by governments, large corporations, and other entities, with small time operators getting the left overs. And all to many people, governments, and companies are willing to sell us the fencing, the barbed wire, for our own good.
Take a look at the incident with Yahoo these past few months in France. I do not think that this is what we want.
It will surely happen if people do not constantly make the internet free.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
China's Firewall version 6.0: So easy to use, no wonder it's number one! It's the only one!
They won't need it they have enough egg foo you to last for years... How do you know they're not spammed with pro-government messages ;)
360 degrees of Karma
have you ever read 1984 by ... that guy.... I can't remember his name...
one day, when the chinese have no outside input, the gov's gonna tell them that we're evil and send them all over in little chamacaze (probably spelled different) and try to kill us all because were not chinese or something..... yah!
Because of $$$$.
That's all that matters to this country. Talk is cheap when it comes to things like Tibetan/Taiwan rights. It's also cheap when speaking of Tiannamen square but where there's $$$ to be made, all is forgotten and forgiven.
That's also why Rwanda happened. A group of people killed with better efficiency than the nazis efforts to the jews, but we let it go on. We probably would have let it happened to Kosovo also but that's too close to the rest of Europe.
Then there's Iraq invading Kuwait and the stories (later proven the be false) of Iraqi soldiers dumping babies on the floor from their incubators.
There's nothing to exploit in Kosovo or Rwanda. There is definitely something to exploit in China, money, money, money.
Now as far as the pesky firewall is concerned, assuming China keeps a firewall up that allows some of the internet in, there's always the hope of peer to peer.
That would be a kool idea, dissemination of news via a Gnutella like program.
This new info superhighway will probably have to be powered by Linux. Intellectual property rights don't exist in China (Communism). It would be interesting to know how many legitimate copies of Windows there are in China versus how many people are actually running it.
Now that Al Gore lost the election perhaps he could go and invent the Chinese information superhighway also.
The problem with this reasoning is your statement that people have a knack for overcoming oppression is not true. How long did the Roman Empire last? Egypt? China (5,000 years and no Western-style freedom, ever)? Russia? Right now freedom is winning over oppression, but if history has told us one thing it's that everything changes. So freedom's on top now? If the Religous Right has it's way that will stop. If the Arab world unites it could stop, etc. People have a knack for getting what they want, but if you make a sufficiantly grisly example of those who want freedom the survivors stop wanting freedom. I predict the Chinese will find a way to block people from seeing what they don't want the people to see - it will be ironclad enough (and backed up with harsh penalties for people who break the encryption) that nobody will bother getting around it.
Nick
I wanted to respond to the comments I've read in many of the above posts that attribute the "slow" speed of domestic access to international content to China's content-control policies (including its Great Firewall).
While I've never used the Internet in China myself, I have studied the subject, and it seems that the real culprit for the slow loadtime of foreign webpages is probably the fact that the country has only 1234 Mbps of international bandwidth. Considering the pace of growth in Chinese internet use, I'm not surprised to discover that accessing foreign websites takes time.
While official statistics peg the total number of "Internet users" at 16.9 million today, it's revealing that the government agency responsible for these estimates, CNNIC, reveals that Chinese citizens have a total of 65 million email accounts. Even this figures probably underestimates the situation, considering that many Chinese use foreign-based webmail services such as hotmail (it's not clear to me if THESE accounts are factored into the 65 million estimate).
So bascially, China has about as much international bandwidth as a large American university has domestic bandwidth (and think of what Napster ALONE did to those networks....), with literally millions upon millions of more users accessing "foreign" content. While this renders right-wing fears of DOS attacks from China somewhat silly, it explains perfectly well why accessing American sites may take a lot of time if you're in China.
and i tink it will not be too easy for a Non-Chinese reader to understand that symbols on the page you're linked to then.
The main difficulty in running an ISP in China is the fact that you are renting bandwidth from the telecom company, who then is also competing with you to provide the same services you do to users. A couple of years ago, there were quite a few Chinese ISPs (mostly in Beijing, actually) but they were more or less choked out of the market by increasing telco charges.
So, you don't see many independent ISPs, and those that are usually run ancillary services like internet cafes.
--Perianwyr Stormcrow
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
As we all know, the US would never do anything of the kind -- say, at places such as Kent State, Wounded Knee or Waco. Of course, genocide -- of, say, Native Americans -- is right out. Government-approved slavery? Class- and race-biased justice? Fifty thousand hand-gun deaths a year? Student massacres in public schools? Shooting down civilian air flights? Blowing up of federal buildings in Kansas City? Nope. No way. Never happen. Not in "no blood on our hands" America -- the most violent society on earth.
Now those godless, commie Chinese -- hey, you can never tell what pure evil those sub-humans are capable of.
these (Chinese citizens) are the people who really need your help.
Thank you so much for your (highly paternalistic) concern. The problem is America has such a myopic sense of history -- as if the world didn't know how to take care of itself before 1776. But the Chinese were tending their affairs 4,000 years before America appeared on the scene to save the world from itself. And I imagine we'll still be here long after the US has faded to a distant memory.
There was a wise man once long ago who said, "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." Words to live by.
It is not very difficult to do that, well not as far as the Chinese Government are concerned. They have a lot of poeple who have government sponsored time and internet connections to search the web for anything that may need blocking. The last thing that China needs is suddenly growing levels of education and world general knowledge.
It needs to happen slowly.
If china had a revolt and the existing structures fell apart, large sections of its population would start to go hungry. Hungry people are like scared people (Isralies) they go to war quickly. So let them block the internet what harm can it do, none. The world needs to be introduced to the main bulk of chinas' people slowly or china will fall apart and that would be bad... Oh, I am not a great fan of chinese way of government, I just dont see the need for lots of people to be put through the ringer for sake of adopting our western cultural ideas..
... although I also like C#..
I read through 10 posts on this thread looking for the one that said:
"None of you even know how your own telephone works. That you might even suggest making a 'long distance ADSL call' from China to the US underscores your ignorance. For heavens sake, shut up!"
Sadly I found no such post and had to write one myself.
Ryan
They did it to Roger Rabbit.
Ryan
yeah.. actually.. I should have written "dissedent." I'm really dependent on spell checkers to get anything right.
Sorry for the confusion.
You predict that the government will stop the censorship because of the benefits involved. You seem to be forgetting that the government there doesn't care about the benefits of China, but of the benefits of their government, and that unrestricted internet access doesn't benefit the party.
Given that, nothing else matters.
(currently testing something about signatures here)
Ouch. Now that's really egregious on my part. Make that "dissident."
the Hambo keygen studio:
http://202.103.100.253/hambo
Vala..zillions of hacks and keys..enough to hurt thousands of budding capitalist coders.
Now do traceroute 202.103.100.253
I have been checking this for a few months now - it always routes to an ip in china.
Now, who else besides the chinese government would have the resources to devote to creating thousands of cracks and keygens? And why?
The war on capitalism lives on?
-------
In the end, no matter how well this works right now, it will be brought down for the exact same reasons as the first Great Wall of China: someone on the inside opening the gates to the outsiders for money.
AHHHHHHH! I'm burning with goodness again!
- Reakk, Sluggy Freelance
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It's got nothing to do with censorship guys, The Chinese Government is envious at western influence particularly the US. They want to have created the internet. all communist countries follow the same patterns: power, control, huge armies, and propaganda. They wish they had the influence the US has (in their eyes). If you don't believe me, then you really should learn more about them, they are always challenging their competitors and they seem to be mailly focused on the US (the centre of it all, they way they see it) jzygmont@sympatico.ca
All i can say is YES to access foreign sites it is really slow. But you have to visualize all those packets flying in those submarine cables across the pacific ocean. Try accessing sina.com or sohu.com or chinaren.com from North America. Its pretty freken slow too!
YES some sites are banned. CNN.com is, but MSNBC isn't. Yahoo isn't, but is slowed down sometimes. Anti-China propaganda is ie Free Tibet, Falun Gong, Tiananmen Square. Really is that supriseing for any non-democratic country? Hell even countries like Singapore Malaysia and Korea routinely filter out websites.
The good stuff. Access internet in China is EASY, if you have a phone line (now cheap to get, but a couple years ago required 6mths) and a modem (5 bucks down in Zhonguanchun technology market, bargin hard). Dial 169, username 169, password 169 or Dial 263, user name 263, password 263 and you are connected, on the internet its billed to your monthly account. Easy.
China is NOT a totalitarian state. If it was companies like Motorola, Intel, Microsoft wouldn't be flocking to China to establish ties with Chinese internet/technology companies like Legend, Founder, Sina, Sohu, etc. Its a RESTRICTED country. Not totalitarian or communist. There wouldn't be markets like Zhongguanchun where you could pick up Chinese made hardware (ASUS, Gigabyte, ALL THE major manufature have plants in China) for CHEAP!
Reality. China is a poor country. But has a bigger internet/tech savy population that India. (about 10x) WAP will become the most common internet access method in China in 5 yrs. Everyone in china has a cell phone, Nokia, Ericsson, Motorola are making a KILLING in China. The fastest internet connection you can get personally is dual channel ISDN, wired to your house/apartment (thats only 5 yrs behind in technology of the US). The avg Chinese makes 1/5th of the avg Westerner. The internet population is growing, with all the young people wanting to "players" in the tech market of china. Oversea Chinese are flocking back to China to establish companies because they know its the new place for a great opporunty.
Conclusion - China is doing the best that it can, and its doing a pretty damn good job considering the population is 1.3 BILLION people, most of them poor rural folk.
Any question email me at phchau@yahoo.com
Setting up a system like this will effectivly block more legal traffic than it will help to ban illegal things like nazi propaganda. Also you should note that scientology propaganda is not illegal in Germany. Also starting a system like the chinese one will get people to simply try blocking everything without really checking the law. Sueing germans for putting nazi is much better than useing blocking filters.
Jan
... but as posted in an earlier comment: Why don't the Americans stop being the Internet police.
It's true, the Chinese limit the freedom of press and I agree it's bad. But it's their way of government. How can you judge someone living in a so entirely different way than you? (I don't want to rant about human rights in the US now but keep in mind that the death penalty is still a custom measure of law enforcement in some states. Human rights? Sorry, you don't have them either)
Having firewalls filtering news from the outside is their way of keeping the people quiet. Along with some oppression like in: read Slashdot, you die. First of all, we can't do anything about it. Then, it won't help the government one bit to prevent information from the outside reach their people. I don't think it would have helped the people in the former german democratic republic or in Russia one bit if someone ranted about the state of their government. It is the choice of the people living there to change something. I'm sure a turnaround in China will happen sooner or later. But this is something you cannot force.
I finally do want to take the opportunity to rant about something because it is slightly related:
I'm Swiss. I'm being monitored by an american Echelon system in a base in southern Germany. So are millions of Germans and Austrians. WTF does your government think about limiting my rights. In my eyes this is kinda similar to the situation in China because I bet the NSA has a private hookup to the european backbone and they may not be filtering but they sure are listening there. No, it's not only similar, it's worse! And I even can't do anything about it because those silly Germans allowed them to do it.
Sorry, I had to tell someone finally.
Fact is, if China really wants to block content, and does not care too much about small leakage and lots of innocuous stuff getting blocked, then they can block content within that definition of success.
Trans-border data flows are, still, pretty small compared with the capacity of monitoring networks to monitor and backhaul stuff they think is interesting. Neither monitoring nor blocking can be perfect, but perfect is not the goal. "Good enough for government work" is fine for most purposes.
It is also all a matter of degree. Goverment influence and propoganda is difficult to implement in a relatively open press market like the U.S. and Europe. But governements still try it, like when the DEA was found to have been secretly paying U.S. broadcasters to propogandize for the drug war. And when they succeed completely we usually don't hear about it.
I wrote parts of this stuff
So the man in the car filming the police beating someone, who was promptly shot in the face with a tear gas canaster wasnt beating badly enough? I find your comments a perfect example of why people hate capitalist's. McDonald's isnt good, they get more money from the government for off shore ad development then they even pay in taxes. If you think its alright to be beaten by a cop, clearly you havent been. You should be appaled by the war on the poor, the youth and the homeless. This move along nothing to see mentality is dangerous. No one needs to be made an example. If you feel so stongly for your cause, go do what the other protesters are doing, get your ass kicked for your cause. You can be the example you think we so richly need.
Fight censors!
"Not my manner of thinking but the manner of thinking of others has been the source of my unhappiness." - M
How easily can the worldwide dataflow be arrested in a country as populous and geographically diffuse as China? Scarily it's very easy. The Chinese government has an incredibly powerful tool at its disposal - fear. Censorship thankfully doesn't work well in countries that have free speech, even where censorship is generally agreed upon (eg. underage children can't see certain films) because the punishments are very light or non-existent for non-enforcement. In china censorship carries such heavy punishments as lifetime imprisonment etc. that people don't want to break the laws, or even be accomplices. Hence ISPs and Internet cafes will all help the government in it's massive task. Meanwhile private citizens find it very difficult to get residential internet connections if they are not of a certain minimum class (ex-pats, or business people). The task of censoring the internet may not be as impossible as you'd like to think, especially when dealing with a society as different from ours as theirs is.
In my opinion, western nations should provide a satellite Internet access to Chinese citizens as a public service - free of charge.
Knowledge is power, and the more Chinese people know about the outside world, the faster democracy will progress in China.
Of course Chinese government could outlaw satellite dishes, but it's not that easy to control. Especially if the dishes are like 5 inches in diameter.
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I don't understand this. I have corresponded by email with many mainland Chinese and have exchanged jpg files.
E.G., One was a young woman who was employed by the State to list web sites to be censored by their criteria. The other was a young man who was comparing notes with me on the best digital camera available in early 1999.
ALthough we didn't talk politics, there was no problems of data flow, but I was never inside of China trying to get to web sites. The Yugoslavian war came along with the Chinese Embasy bombing and I had to cancel my trip to Beijing.
A suggestion on a way to foil the Censors is to produce a site that conforms to their censoring rules yet provides the information that is essential in a form that is not censorable.
Of course pornography is not going to be get around that, but then again I would love to see it censored here in the USA. I am no friend of pornography and its providers.
One other note: The elite of China, I'm sure, are not using the same censored route. That might be a useful clue.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darueber muss man schweigen. Ludwig Wittgenstein
You know what th funniest part is? He actually believes that shit.
Nick
Shucks, you mean this isn't about denying traffic from Chinese hosts? Damn, and I thought my spamload was going to go down. Seriously, though, cutting off traffic from the "land without reverse DNS" would be a godsend. I get nothing from China but relay-raped spam from uu.net dialups and network probes against my firewall box. Fuck 'em. Let them have their own intranet. Censorship be damned. Rich
the first is deformed physically, I don't know if mental disabilities are included.
I think this is one of the most resposible laws around the world (if your population is too high), although it's enforcement is sometimes barbaric.
Refugees have come to Australia, pregnant with an extra child, because it will be killed if they stay in China.
I disagree with the number of personal computers that people own -- but I've been out of country for a little more than a year.
Point -- a lot of "research" about china and the internet is the blind leading the blind -- or at least a patchwork of anecdotal evidence and fud. It's not great either, but it's not as bad as some people seem to think.
there is no thing
what else could you want?
I never had a problem with them -- not secure, of course, but when I was there I didn't have a ssh client either.
there is no thing
what else could you want?
How is the Chinesse censorship of the internet so different then that of the lack of seperation of Church and state in the US? They both aim to control the people and don't take in consideration of what the general population wants. If you think that their is separation of Church and State in the US, just look at a penny to find your answer.
You stupid bastard, you don't have no arms left. It's just a flesh wound.