I dont care about anything but one thing, how many mandrake club members are there? All of these groups dont want to tell us how many members are in the club yet they expect us to join it,?
We cannot help get new members to join if we dont even know how successful we are at what we are doing and no we dont take your word for it MandrakeSoft, we want to see some numbers.
People dont sit in "seats" the club gets filled, if that means 500, 1000, 5000, how are you supposed to know?
Just give up, you lost the arguement and now because you cannot come with anything to save face, you move on to insults.
WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT trying to justify copying the life works of thousands of artists because you a) want to benefit from their hard work and effort but b) don't want to pay anything because you're a cheap bastard.
Please copy my songs, because I dont consider the copies of my live music to be art. I consider at to be me playing live, and we both know theres no way to ever copy that.
Its not that I'm unwilling to pay, I'll go to see Mr.Lif live and in person. I'll also go to movie theaters, but I do not believe Mr.Lif has the right to own something after its released to the public domain.
If you release a song to the world, the world now owns it, not you. Music isnt physical, its information, because its information it can be copied forever without any of us physically taking it away from you, Adapt you lazy corperate bastard, if you want to make money learn to adapt.
I make music, I make music because I love the art, I do not CARE if I make millions of dollars, what I care about is making good music. You can sellout all you want, and become a corperate musician like britney spears, or eminem, someone who makes music just for the money and who doesnt give a damn about the art or the culture.
Am I supposed to agree with you? No, because I'm a REAL artist. What I care about is the art, the scene, and the culture. Selling CDs does not help the culture, spreading your music around and getting people to go to your shows helps the culture.
Most real musicians, and real music fans would rather have Eminem going from "bar" to "bar" or concert to concert playing live, freestyling and creating new lyrics every night, than buy some stupid tape or CD.
Musicians are entertainers, they ENTERTAIN PEOPLE, they are ARTISTS, they create ART.
Selling CDs, and worrying about having absolute control over who can and cannot listen to what and where, is business, this is what a CEO does when they run a business, if you want to be profitable yes I admit its more profitable to sell CDs and go on tours, and have absolute control over who can do what with everything you create.
The problem with this? When you do this less people listen to your music, less music availible to the general public who does not have $18 to risk buying your music, means a loss of culture, your music will sell to a few hundred thousand people, and then sit in a waste basket lost in the sea of failed businesses.
Why should music be lost and forgotten just because people are unwilling to risk listening to it due to the high price? Why should only Americans be able to afford music? What about little kids in Africa? what about children in China, Iraq, and other countries who cannot afford Eminems $20 CD?
you see, what you want to do is take art, and make it commercial, you want to take art and make it into some kinda stupid franchise.
You are what we musicians call a "sell out" That is someone who doesnt care about the art, culture or scene, someone who makes money for profits and who exploits the real artists, culture and scene. Like Elvis, Eminem, Metallica, and alot of others.
Face it, for the true fans, and I'm sure everyone here who is a true fan of any kinda music, its all about the scene, being able to go to a club and have your favorite musicians play live for you and your friends, of course its people like you who ruin great bands like Nirvana, by pressurinng them to give up the scene.
So you can stay on your side of this arguement, you'll never be able to convince me in a million years, that art exists simply to generate profits. You'll never convince me to try to package and sell culture in box or on a CD.
So? Thats still more than he'd make selling 2 million CDs. Considering he'd get like 25 cent per CD sold.
I also think you ignore the fact that I said tickets would cost $15 not $5, $5 is lifs cut. Also Lif wouldnt have a huge crew, he'd be with a few other people, like his DJ, and maybe a few other artists.
The tour manager? Why couldnt lif manage his own tours, but even still Lif would make more money doing this than selling CDs for 25 cent.
lets look at your numbers.
$7000 for 50 shows = $350,000. Transporation would take a good chunk, but thats why he puts on shows 3-4 times in the same state.
" Let's conservatively say that the whole thing comes out to $7000 per show."
But you see, $5 a show is very conservative, the tickets actually cost $15, so I'd assume some of this money goes to the tour manager, etc etc, the $5 goes to the artists. You also ignore Tshirt sales, and other little sales artists make at shows.
The venue gets their cut from the $15 ticket, most likely the $10 out of that 15 goes to the venue and tour manager, leaving lif and his people with $5.
When you make $350,000 for 50 shows for your entire crew, this is better than you'd make at 711 or Mc Donalds. Each crew member could take $50,000 and be happy, hell most could be happy with $25,000.
As far as hotel costs, $1000 for the whole crew may be accurate, or the crew could sleep in the van and not pay any hotel costs.
Face it, if no one was making money doing this, they'd just raise the ticket price a few bucks. $18 tickets are reasonable, and would solve your problem. Most people would pay a couple more bucks in exchange for a longer show.
Here is an example of HipHop Artist Mr.Lifs tour dates.Read them, he gained his popularity online, he never was signed to any big record labels, never had his music on the radio, the only way these people know who he is, is through P2P. Look at it and shut up. July 3rd | Kristansand, Norway | Quart Festival | w/ El-P, RJD2 June 26th | Roskilde, Denmark | Roskilde Festival | w/ El-P, RJD2 May 23rd | Barcelona, Spain | Primavera Sound 2003 | w/ El-P, RJD2 May 8th | Eugene, OR | WOW Hall May 7th | Olympia, WA | Longhouse May 6th | Seattle, WA | Chop Suey May 5th | Victoria, BC | Lucky Bar May 4th | Vancouver, BC | Sonar May 3rd | Portland, OR | B Complex May 2nd | Missoula, MT | Blue Heron April 30th | Ft. Collins, NM | Starlight April 29th | Albuquerque, NM | Smooch's April 28th | Tempe, AZ | The Big Fish April 27th | Indio, CA | Coachella Festival April 26th | LA, CA | Henry Fonda Theatre April 24th | Sacramento, CA | Colonial Theatre April 23rd | SF, CA | Slim's | w/ Oldiminion April 10 | Bloomington, IN | Dunn Meadow April 11 | Hip Hop Congress | Ann Arbor, MI | Blind Pig April 13 | Cleveland, OH | Grog Shop April 14 | Champaign, IL | High Dive April 15 | Chicago, IL | The Abbey Pub April 16 | Iowa City, IA | The Green Room April 17 | Minneapolis, MN | W/ Odd jobs OSAKA (TONIGHT) TOKYO (TOMORROW/20TH) @ CLUB YELLO KOMATSU (SAT.) @ KANEZAWA MUSIC HALL rock rock y'all... -tm 2003-03-18 21:12:32 Definitive Jux / Eastern Conference 2002 Fall Tour Sept. 14th / Worcester, MA / Skatefest 2002 / Palladium Sept. 19th / Providence, RI / Lupo's Sept. 20th / Montreal, QC / Rainbow - ites Sept. 21st / Toronto, ON / Opera House Sept. 22nd / Ann Arbor, MI / Blind Pig Sept. 24th / Chicago, IL / Metro Sept. 25th / Minneapolis, MN / First Avenue Sept. 29th / Vancouver, BC / Sonar Sept. 30th / Seattle, WA / I Spy Oct. 1st / Portland, OR / Crystal Ballroom Oct. 3rd / San Francisco, CA / Great American Music Hall Oct. 4th / Los Angeles, CA / Troubador Oct. 5th / Irvine, CA / This Ain't No Picnic Oct. 6th / San Diego, CA / The Scene Oct. 8th / Albuquerque, NM / Sunshine Theatre Oct. 10th / Austin, TX / La Zona Rosa Oct. 11th / Dallas, TX / Canyon Club Oct. 12th / Houston, TX / Engine Room Oct. 13th / New Orleans, Louisiana / House of Blues Parish Oct. 14th / Antlanta, GA / Echo Lounge Oct. 16th / Asheville, NC / TBA Oct. 17th / Washington, DC / TBA Oct. 18th / Philadelphia, PA / Gasoline Oct. 19th / New York, NY / Bowery Ballroom Source:http://www.mrlif.com/shows.php Lets be conservative and say he gets 1000 tickets sold per show for $15 each. Lets also be conservative and say he gets $5 per ticket.
Now lets count how many shows hes giving. I counted around 50 shows. 50x1000=50,000 tickets sold. 50,000x$5=$250.000
This guy is making more money from 50 shows than the average working class American would make in 4 years of work. This guy makes GREAT pay, so for you to tell me P2P hurts him, you are a fool. Look at the proof. Those arent CD sales those are tour dates.
25,000 seat arena in new york for five nights? WTF are you smoking? Like i said there's a handful of bands, MAYBE, in the world that can play five nights at madison square garden. And this is your answer to smaller bands that want to make a living playing music? Come back when you have a shred of common sense.
No, not 25,000 seats for 5 nights, 25,000 seats in 5 nights.
You dont play at madison square garden, you play 5 shows at 5 different clubs/events with 5000 people at each. 25000.
2) $0.50 per cd sold? You are continuing to refuse to see the difference between media mogul superstars and the other 99% of the music industry. Bands that sell albums for $10 and play in clubs see far more that $0.50 for their efforts.
P2P doesnt stop people from selling their CDs at clubs, P2P doesnt stop the small musician from making money playing live, or from djing on the radio. P2P stops record companies from selling millions of CDs in record stores.
IF you play live at a concert and you sell your live recording on CD, it can make money and P2P wont have anything to do with it because no two live shows are exactly alike.
you know what the missing ??? is? It's the part where you admit this is some kind of random fantasy you've made up to justify copying what ever you want.
Many many bands have made a name for themselves using the net. Theres people in Europe, Canada, Toyko, who would have never heard of them if they had not put their music online, now they have fans all around the world instead of just their home town.
1)Small band is forced to give up ownership rights to the public domain. 2)Millions copy and share it for free. 3)Fans are generated. 4)Play music for clubs and give concerts in Toyko making lots of yen.
Nothings missing, this formula has worked for many people. You think I'm wrong? Go to a rave. They are popular in Japan. Hiphop is also popular in Japan, as well as Europe.
If you are one of the best at Djing in the world or the best at Hiphop, you'll make money because you'll have millions of fans.
What you cannot seem to understand is that generating fans is what allows you to tour. CDs can be sold at your concerts, simply record your live show and sell that CD. I'm not against selling the CD when no one else has it, but I am against Musicians trying to remove ownership rights from someone whos actually purchased the music.
If you go on tour and sell your live recordings, thats good, sell them, no two live recordings are exactly alike. Learn to put on a good show and you'll make money.
Heres an example of a few artists who are making alot of money because of P2P.
7LES has toured through pretty much the whole modern world, the US, Canada, Japan. Mr Lif has toured all around the country
Heres his list of shows for the next few months, pay close attention because Japan is included
uly 3rd | Kristansand, Norway | Quart Festival | w/ El-P, RJD2
June 26th | Roskilde, Denmark | Roskilde Festival | w/ El-P, RJD2
May 23rd | Barcelona, Spain | Primavera Sound 2003 | w/ El-P, RJD2 May 8th | Eugene, OR | WOW Hall May 7th | Olympia, WA | Longhouse May 6th | Seattle, WA | Chop Suey May 5th | Victoria, BC | Lucky Bar May 4th | Vancouver, BC | Sonar May 3rd | Portland, OR | B Complex May 2nd | Missoula, MT | Blue Heron
April 30th | Ft. Collins, NM | Starlight April 29th | Albuquerque, NM | Smooch's April 28th | Tempe, AZ | The Big Fish April 27th | Indio, CA | Coachella Festival April 26th | LA, CA | Henry Fonda Theatre April 24th | Sacramento, CA | Colonial Theatre April 23rd | SF, CA | Slim's | w/ Oldiminion 2003-04-09 03:54:56
April 10 | Bloomington, IN | Dunn Meadow April 11 | Hip Hop Congress | Ann Arbor, MI | Blind Pig April 13 | Cleveland, OH | Gro
Smalltime bands dont make a PENNY of Album sales. According to their countries with the RIAA, unless you sell over a certain number of CDs you dont earn a PENNY. Record companies give you an advance, this pays for your video, your MTV airtime, and any other made up costs they want to pin onto this. They then tell the musician that they must sell triple platinium before they can earn a profit.
This means you wont see a penny from selling your Album unless you sell to millions of people.
Small bands do not sell to millions of people, so how are they making money? Tours, Clubs, Djing, going on the radio and doing live mixes, Concerts.
If you give your music away you can then have millions of fans, you can then put on your website a list of places you will be touring to, and sell your tickets for say $15 a person.
Lets say the place takes $5 per person out of this $15, you get $10 per person.
Lets say you put on 5 shows in new york, and 25,000 people pay $5.
Thats $25,000x5, this is over $100,000!!!!
Lets say you go to LA, sell 10,000 tickets, $5x10,000 = $50,000 and then take a plane to London and play your music there, another 10,000 tickets sold.
Over a 6 month period, you could easily make a few hundred thousand dollars touring. This is more than you'd make if you sold millions of CDs.
You act like Musicians get $15 per CD sale, they dont even get 50 cent per CD sold. So if you are looking at 25-50 cent per CD and you do sell a 2 million CDs, you'll only make $500.000, the first million CDs sold will go to the record company to pay for all the promotion they did.
So in the end you are talking about $500,000 for selling a million CDs, vs maybe $300,000 going on tour and selling 0 CDs.
The difference is, its very difficult to sell more than 3 million CDs, its easy to sell tickets when you have name recognition, and the more people who hear your music, the more your concerts will sellout, eventually you'll be touring Tokyo Japan where little kids heard your music on the net, you'll tour Europe where people who normally wouldnt even know who you are will have heard your stuff online.
This is how it works. I know musicians who do this. You give your CD as marketing instead of letting the RIAA sell your CD as marketing, you cut the RIAA out and you get increased profits because theres no middleman.
We can turn that around and spin it the opposite way. If the minority in Germany were jews and owned all the businesses, and wanted to keep the majority from ever having a chance at those businesses, its the same situation.
Look at South Africa, until recently the majority was oppressed by the white minority.
suppose coming up with this belief helps a lot to reduce the pangs of guilt while you are ripping off other working class people like artists.
Eminem is working class?
Not a single one of these people owns an expensive car. None of them jet off to london to jam with the stones. Only a few of them own their own house, something that has long been heralded as basic achievement of working class people. Many work part or full time in record stores, recording studios, restaurants and bars. When we go out to lunch most of the time it's at a place that a burrito and a coke will cost you less than $5.
Really? So how do musicians make their money? Thats right they get on a jet and go to London to play their music in front of thousands of fans.
Let me tell you the other side of the story. I know dozens of people who make their living either in whole or in part due to creating music on records.
Artists dont make money off records, record companies make money off records. What artist do you know who makes 100% of their income from record sales? Most artists i know make the majority of their money at the clubs and concerts, they call it the scene, and its the scene that produces income, not the records.
These are the upper class elite you're talking about?
Eminem, Dr.Dre, and the corperate CEOs who own most of the copyright and who sell most of the CDs. Most of the people you mention arent making any money because they are too stupid to go on tour, and use the internet to build enough popularity to have a big enough fanbase to go on tour.
Are these the greedy people bilking you out of your hard earned money to scam you with music? No, they are working class americans. Based on your arguments about the evils of capitalism and copyright one would assume that file swappers would not be sharing music by these people, right? Well, of course they are though. Search for any number of these bands on p2p apps and you'll find their whole albums ready to download.
Bullshit, the people who work for the RIAA arent creating any music, these guys are suddenly working class? Hilary Rosen is working class? Where do you get this bullshit from?
A few years ago, an old friend joined their band... Now this guy was a bit different, he had been in a popular san francisco band that had toured internationally and consequently had made somewhat of a name for himself. Him joining was probably going to help them all make more of a living out of making their music. They made a new album and played a few shows locally to introduce the new guy. The album was available for sale on their website. About a month after their cd release I was told a sobering tale from my friend the sound engineer. The band had recieved a large amount of positive feedback on the new album... over a hundred and fifty people had written to tell them that the new album was great, that they loved it. The problem? Between the CD sales at the concerts and online, they had sold less than 100 copies
Maybe if you and your band werent such idiots, you'd instead of worrying about selling your CD, you'd use it to promote your tours. Your CD is marketing, just like for movies, the trailers are marketing to get you to go to the theater, use the marketing, if so many people liked your music, why dont you go on tour and play before a sellout crowd, you'd make x10 more money than you'd make selling CDs, of course its more work to go on tour, and you are just too afraid to admit that you are lazy. Maybe if you worked hard you'd make money, but thinking people will buy your CD in this era, forget it.
More people had loved the album enough to write in an congratulate them on it than had bought the album in the first place. And we know most people who get an album (either bought or copied) aren't going to write the band. So here were working class guys with a shot at getting a bit more for their labor essentially shot down by music pira
The information is not what the musician owns, the musician owns the right to copy that information.
Copyright is not the same as "intellectual property".
You ignore the whole point of why copyright was created, it was not created as corperate welfare, it was created to promote progress. Now its slowing progress.
So if 60 million people wanted to rape your wife, and only your family disagreed, you would support their freedom to do with her what they would? Of course not, modern society recognizes that human rights are not dictated by those who have the biggest stick, or the biggest constituency.
We arent talking about rape, murder, etc. Please do not try to spin this debate by comparing copying with murder and rape, thats ridiculous. No human is harmed by copying a file. Rape is wrong because someone is harmed when you rape.
You arent harmed when I copy something, you arent harmed when I download something, and you arent harmed when I share something. Musicians arent harmed when their fans copy and share their music, musicians actually want this because like a politician, having name recognition actually helps them when its time to go on tour.
The only people who are harmed by copying are people who want to control the distribution of music. The RIAA does not want the distribution of music to be free, the RIAA knows they cannot control the music industry if Musicians can directly sell or give their music to the fans. The RIAA knows they will go out of business if the Musicians gain freedom from the RIAA's contracts and fans gain freedom to share music.
Face it, everyone benefits from this situation but the RIAA, and the RIAA does not create the content, nor do they provide any money to the content creators, they arent a part of this industry anymore.
There has got to be thousands of great thinkers rolling over in their graves right now to think that your idea of freedom of speech (which you are blessed with) is there to allow you to mass copy someone else work because you want to enjoy it but dont want to pay for it.
Ok i want you to pay the Newton family for calculus, pay einstiens family, pay the egyptian government for stealing their math to use on your homework, pay the africans for stealing the drum, pay for the right to use a wheel to whoever created it and if you cannot find out who did pay whichever country represents them, how many things would you be able to afford?
Lets see, a calculate would be out of your range, math would be too expensive for you to use, your use of English would be very limited, your use of technology would be very limited, you wouldnt be able to create music because someone will have a copyright or patent on almost every note, there will be copyrights on every beat/pattern.
So tell me whats the point of this? Progress would slow down to a crawl, most people wouldnt be able to afford music, math would be too expensive so even if you are a math genius you wont be able to contribute to society simply because you wont be able to afford to use the math thats under copyrights and patents.
Addition, Subtraction, Multiplication, they'd all be under patents and you'd have to pay each time you want to use them, and if you want to use algebra you'll have to pay for every formula, every algorithm, every use of the basics of subtraction, multiplication and division.
Look, the computer would not exist, because every computer owner would have to pay per a license to use a CPU due to the math a CPU does.
You wouldnt have computers because software would cost billions of dollars to make, games would cost a fortune to make because not only would programmers have to license the math, they'd have to license the artwork, the algorithms, the programming language itself would have to be paid for, the music would cost millions of dollars because you'd have to pay for every beat, tone, and rhythm simply because your yourself wasnt the first to discover it. The calculus involved in making the 3d engine would require you license perhaps thousands of algorithms and formulas.
Lets set a reasonable price of $20 each time you use it. Can you afford to use a calculator if it costs $20 per calculation?
Read a a dictionary you stupid moron. This is theft.
Main Entry: theft Pronunciation: 'theft Function: noun Etymology: Middle English thiefthe, from Old English thIefth; akin to Old English thEof thief Date: before 12th century 1 a : the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it b : an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property 2 obsolete : something stolen 3 : a stolen base in baseball
at the expense of those who produce the content can only hurt the arguments for more digital freedom
So its ok for the RIAA to claim create and own content they didnt create, but its not ok for the public domain to own contact which it didnt create?
Why the double standard? The RIAA does not produce the content, their employees do, and their employees do not make money off of lawsuits against the very fans these employees need to go on tour.
Exactly, the whole concept of owning thoughts is an attempt to profit off of things which arent even tangible, and I honestly disagree with this idea entirely, infact its totally against my whole religion and belief system to believe someone can own information.
Also I look down the road, the way the world currently works, he who owns the money owns all the knowledge, imagine if you have no money, well you wont be able to get knowledge either, its like slavery. When there was slavery, slaves werent taught to read so they would stay stupid, its the same thing, why let the masses have access to information, the rich elite can keep all the information to themselves and always have the advantage on us.
I bet they hate the internet because now the playing field is leveled, a kid in nigeria can learn C, learn all the technology, and get a job as a programmer.
You just say that because you want to keep your slaves and your witch trials. Guns are sold because we need to keep the king of england off our backs, and overthrow our government. Oh, yea, also so citizens can kill citizens with extreme efficiency and speed.
Without guns, the government could make everyone into slaves.
Yes and most individuals prefer freedom.
. Freedom of speech protects the individual more so than the majority. Freedom to peaceably to assemble and freedom of the press protect the majority. It also protects the individual, because it will be the individual on trial for their life, not a group.
Yes but in this case, theres not even a balance, the vast majority of individuals want a free internet. Theres nothing to debate when its 60 million vs maybe 1 million.
Most producers of music ARE NOT making money from CD sales.
Most producers of music are DJs, you know the one you see at the club you go to. Or bands, you know the band you see playing for tips. They dont have record contracts with the RIAA, and if they have contracts at all its with indie labels who actually PROFIT from the internet.
Most of these people know how to profit from the digital world, they put their music on P2P networks to gain popularity so they can go on tour, CD sales were never a big deal to the average musician unless that musician sells millions of CDs. The average musician sells thousands of CDs, a very good musician sells maybe 50,000-100.000 CDs in a year.
CDs to these people are marketing devices, like advertisements, these people make more money going on tours in Europe playing live concerts to their online fans than they EVER could have made if they didnt have the net to attract people from all around the world to their music.
You cant make money from your music unless you have a fanbase, you cannot get a fan base if only people who buy your music get to hear you. This means you MUST play and give free music to profit. You must build your reputation before clubs and other places will hire you.
You must not know anything about the music industry, I actually make music and I know what I'm talking about.
Would I like someone to steal my music? First I dont own it, I sell a service, you hire me and I create music for your party, your club, your wedding, etc. You hire me and I'll make you some great music, I'll be an awesome DJ, and if you like my music enough, you'll pay to come see me play my music.
The truth is, I know that if I have any talent at all at making music, that no one else is going to be able to make the sounds that I make, no one will be able to recreate the experience of hearing me live, so you can have your recorded music, thats yours, what I own is the art.
Music is an art to some people and its a business to others, let the music businessmen go out of business, people would get better music.
I'm sure fans of Eminem would rather have Eminem playing live shows at their party than buy Eminems CD.
"And have you ever heard of the tyranny of the majority? Isn't the US the country where a minority is supposed to stand a chance against getting squashed by the sheep-like masses of the majority? Nothing is making any 100,000 people more important than any other 60 million; the whole point is that minority views are heard and their rights respected and protected, regardless of who they are."
The rights of the minority and the rights of the majority are NOT compatible!
We can go one way or the other, its just like the union vs the confederate, The only difference this time is one side vastly outnumbers the other side.
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I want to see how many club members joined the club, as well as h ow many corperate club members there are.
I dont care about anything but one thing, how many mandrake club members are there? All of these groups dont want to tell us how many members are in the club yet they expect us to join it,?
We cannot help get new members to join if we dont even know how successful we are at what we are doing and no we dont take your word for it MandrakeSoft, we want to see some numbers.
They are CLUBS not bars.
People dont sit in "seats" the club gets filled, if that means 500, 1000, 5000, how are you supposed to know?
Just give up, you lost the arguement and now because you cannot come with anything to save face, you move on to insults.
WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT trying to justify copying the life works of thousands of artists because you a) want to benefit from their hard work and effort but b) don't want to pay anything because you're a cheap bastard.
Please copy my songs, because I dont consider the copies of my live music to be art. I consider at to be me playing live, and we both know theres no way to ever copy that.
Its not that I'm unwilling to pay, I'll go to see Mr.Lif live and in person. I'll also go to movie theaters, but I do not believe Mr.Lif has the right to own something after its released to the public domain.
If you release a song to the world, the world now owns it, not you. Music isnt physical, its information, because its information it can be copied forever without any of us physically taking it away from you, Adapt you lazy corperate bastard, if you want to make money learn to adapt.
I make music, I make music because I love the art, I do not CARE if I make millions of dollars, what I care about is making good music. You can sellout all you want, and become a corperate musician like britney spears, or eminem, someone who makes music just for the money and who doesnt give a damn about the art or the culture.
Am I supposed to agree with you? No, because I'm a REAL artist. What I care about is the art, the scene, and the culture. Selling CDs does not help the culture, spreading your music around and getting people to go to your shows helps the culture.
Most real musicians, and real music fans would rather have Eminem going from "bar" to "bar" or concert to concert playing live, freestyling and creating new lyrics every night, than buy some stupid tape or CD.
Musicians are entertainers, they ENTERTAIN PEOPLE, they are ARTISTS, they create ART.
Selling CDs, and worrying about having absolute control over who can and cannot listen to what and where, is business, this is what a CEO does when they run a business, if you want to be profitable yes I admit its more profitable to sell CDs and go on tours, and have absolute control over who can do what with everything you create.
The problem with this? When you do this less people listen to your music, less music availible to the general public who does not have $18 to risk buying your music, means a loss of culture, your music will sell to a few hundred thousand people, and then sit in a waste basket lost in the sea of failed businesses.
Why should music be lost and forgotten just because people are unwilling to risk listening to it due to the high price? Why should only Americans be able to afford music? What about little kids in Africa? what about children in China, Iraq, and other countries who cannot afford Eminems $20 CD?
you see, what you want to do is take art, and make it commercial, you want to take art and make it into some kinda stupid franchise.
You are what we musicians call a "sell out"
That is someone who doesnt care about the art, culture or scene, someone who makes money for profits and who exploits the real artists, culture and scene. Like Elvis, Eminem, Metallica, and alot of others.
Face it, for the true fans, and I'm sure everyone here who is a true fan of any kinda music, its all about the scene, being able to go to a club and have your favorite musicians play live for you and your friends, of course its people like you who ruin great bands like Nirvana, by pressurinng them
to give up the scene.
So you can stay on your side of this arguement, you'll never be able to convince me in a million years, that art exists simply to generate profits. You'll never convince me to try to package and sell culture in box or on a CD.
If you want to hear my music, I'll give
So? Thats still more than he'd make selling 2 million CDs. Considering he'd get like 25 cent per CD sold.
I also think you ignore the fact that I said tickets would cost $15 not $5, $5 is lifs cut. Also Lif wouldnt have a huge crew, he'd be with a few other people, like his DJ, and maybe a few other artists.
The tour manager? Why couldnt lif manage his own tours, but even still Lif would make more money doing this than selling CDs for 25 cent.
lets look at your numbers.
$7000 for 50 shows = $350,000. Transporation would take a good chunk, but thats why he puts on shows 3-4 times in the same state.
" Let's conservatively say that the whole thing comes out to $7000 per show."
But you see, $5 a show is very conservative, the tickets actually cost $15, so I'd assume some of this money goes to the tour manager, etc etc, the $5 goes to the artists. You also ignore Tshirt sales, and other little sales artists make at shows.
The venue gets their cut from the $15 ticket, most likely the $10 out of that 15 goes to the venue and tour manager, leaving lif and his people with $5.
When you make $350,000 for 50 shows for your entire crew, this is better than you'd make at 711 or Mc Donalds. Each crew member could take $50,000 and be happy, hell most could be happy with $25,000.
As far as hotel costs, $1000 for the whole crew may be accurate, or the crew could sleep in the van and not pay any hotel costs.
Face it, if no one was making money doing this, they'd just raise the ticket price a few bucks. $18 tickets are reasonable, and would solve your problem. Most people would pay a couple more bucks in exchange for a longer show.
Here is an example of HipHop Artist Mr.Lifs tour dates.Read them, he gained his popularity online, he never was signed to any big record labels, never had his music on the radio, the only way these people know who he is, is through P2P.
Look at it and shut up.
July 3rd | Kristansand, Norway | Quart Festival | w/ El-P, RJD2
June 26th | Roskilde, Denmark | Roskilde Festival | w/ El-P, RJD2
May 23rd | Barcelona, Spain | Primavera Sound 2003 | w/ El-P, RJD2
May 8th | Eugene, OR | WOW Hall
May 7th | Olympia, WA | Longhouse
May 6th | Seattle, WA | Chop Suey
May 5th | Victoria, BC | Lucky Bar
May 4th | Vancouver, BC | Sonar
May 3rd | Portland, OR | B Complex
May 2nd | Missoula, MT | Blue Heron
April 30th | Ft. Collins, NM | Starlight
April 29th | Albuquerque, NM | Smooch's
April 28th | Tempe, AZ | The Big Fish
April 27th | Indio, CA | Coachella Festival
April 26th | LA, CA | Henry Fonda Theatre
April 24th | Sacramento, CA | Colonial Theatre
April 23rd | SF, CA | Slim's | w/ Oldiminion
April 10 | Bloomington, IN | Dunn Meadow
April 11 | Hip Hop Congress | Ann Arbor, MI | Blind Pig
April 13 | Cleveland, OH | Grog Shop
April 14 | Champaign, IL | High Dive
April 15 | Chicago, IL | The Abbey Pub
April 16 | Iowa City, IA | The Green Room
April 17 | Minneapolis, MN | W/ Odd jobs
OSAKA (TONIGHT)
TOKYO (TOMORROW/20TH) @ CLUB YELLO
KOMATSU (SAT.) @ KANEZAWA MUSIC HALL
rock rock y'all...
-tm
2003-03-18 21:12:32
Definitive Jux / Eastern Conference 2002 Fall Tour
Sept. 14th / Worcester, MA / Skatefest 2002 / Palladium
Sept. 19th / Providence, RI / Lupo's
Sept. 20th / Montreal, QC / Rainbow - ites
Sept. 21st / Toronto, ON / Opera House
Sept. 22nd / Ann Arbor, MI / Blind Pig
Sept. 24th / Chicago, IL / Metro
Sept. 25th / Minneapolis, MN / First Avenue
Sept. 29th / Vancouver, BC / Sonar
Sept. 30th / Seattle, WA / I Spy
Oct. 1st / Portland, OR / Crystal Ballroom
Oct. 3rd / San Francisco, CA / Great American Music Hall
Oct. 4th / Los Angeles, CA / Troubador
Oct. 5th / Irvine, CA / This Ain't No Picnic
Oct. 6th / San Diego, CA / The Scene
Oct. 8th / Albuquerque, NM / Sunshine Theatre
Oct. 10th / Austin, TX / La Zona Rosa
Oct. 11th / Dallas, TX / Canyon Club
Oct. 12th / Houston, TX / Engine Room
Oct. 13th / New Orleans, Louisiana / House of Blues Parish
Oct. 14th / Antlanta, GA / Echo Lounge
Oct. 16th / Asheville, NC / TBA
Oct. 17th / Washington, DC / TBA
Oct. 18th / Philadelphia, PA / Gasoline
Oct. 19th / New York, NY / Bowery Ballroom
Source:http://www.mrlif.com/shows.php
Lets be conservative and say he gets 1000 tickets sold per show for $15 each. Lets also be conservative and say he gets $5 per ticket.
Now lets count how many shows hes giving. I counted around 50 shows. 50x1000=50,000 tickets sold. 50,000x$5=$250.000
This guy is making more money from 50 shows than the average working class American would make in 4 years of work.
This guy makes GREAT pay, so for you to tell me P2P hurts him, you are a fool. Look at the proof. Those arent CD sales those are tour dates.
25,000 seat arena in new york for five nights? WTF are you smoking? Like i said there's a handful of bands, MAYBE, in the world that can play five nights at madison square garden. And this is your answer to smaller bands that want to make a living playing music? Come back when you have a shred of common sense.
No, not 25,000 seats for 5 nights, 25,000 seats in 5 nights.
You dont play at madison square garden, you play 5 shows at 5 different clubs/events with 5000 people at each. 25000.
2) $0.50 per cd sold? You are continuing to refuse to see the difference between media mogul superstars and the other 99% of the music industry. Bands that sell albums for $10 and play in clubs see far more that $0.50 for their efforts.
P2P doesnt stop people from selling their CDs at clubs, P2P doesnt stop the small musician from making money playing live, or from djing on the radio. P2P stops record companies from selling millions of CDs in record stores.
IF you play live at a concert and you sell your live recording on CD, it can make money and P2P wont have anything to do with it because no two live shows are exactly alike.
you know what the missing ??? is? It's the part where you admit this is some kind of random fantasy you've made up to justify copying what ever you want.
Many many bands have made a name for themselves using the net. Theres people in Europe, Canada, Toyko, who would have never heard of them if they had not put their music online, now they have fans all around the world instead of just their home town.
1)Small band is forced to give up ownership rights to the public domain.
2)Millions copy and share it for free.
3)Fans are generated.
4)Play music for clubs and give concerts in Toyko making lots of yen.
Nothings missing, this formula has worked for many people. You think I'm wrong? Go to a rave. They are popular in Japan. Hiphop is also popular in Japan, as well as Europe.
If you are one of the best at Djing in the world or the best at Hiphop, you'll make money because you'll have millions of fans.
What you cannot seem to understand is that generating fans is what allows you to tour. CDs can be sold at your concerts, simply record your live show and sell that CD. I'm not against selling the CD when no one else has it, but I am against Musicians trying to remove ownership rights from someone whos actually purchased the music.
If you go on tour and sell your live recordings, thats good, sell them, no two live recordings are exactly alike. Learn to put on a good show and you'll make money.
Heres an example of a few artists who are making alot of money because of P2P.
Mr.Lif
7LES
7LES has toured through pretty much the whole modern world, the US, Canada, Japan. Mr Lif has toured all around the country
Heres his list of shows for the next few months, pay close attention because Japan is included
uly 3rd | Kristansand, Norway | Quart Festival | w/ El-P, RJD2
June 26th | Roskilde, Denmark | Roskilde Festival | w/ El-P, RJD2
May 23rd | Barcelona, Spain | Primavera Sound 2003 | w/ El-P, RJD2
May 8th | Eugene, OR | WOW Hall
May 7th | Olympia, WA | Longhouse
May 6th | Seattle, WA | Chop Suey
May 5th | Victoria, BC | Lucky Bar
May 4th | Vancouver, BC | Sonar
May 3rd | Portland, OR | B Complex
May 2nd | Missoula, MT | Blue Heron
April 30th | Ft. Collins, NM | Starlight
April 29th | Albuquerque, NM | Smooch's
April 28th | Tempe, AZ | The Big Fish
April 27th | Indio, CA | Coachella Festival
April 26th | LA, CA | Henry Fonda Theatre
April 24th | Sacramento, CA | Colonial Theatre
April 23rd | SF, CA | Slim's | w/ Oldiminion
2003-04-09 03:54:56
April 10 | Bloomington, IN | Dunn Meadow
April 11 | Hip Hop Congress | Ann Arbor, MI | Blind Pig
April 13 | Cleveland, OH | Gro
The majority of her money comes from tours. She has used her freedom Just like I can use my freedom to share her music on Kazaa after I buy it.
http://www.janisian.com/
Look at her site, what do you see? TOURDATES. Do you see Ads for CDs? NO! The Mp3s are given away for free, what do you see advertised? TOUR DATEs.
Shut up now, you have been proven wrong by actual musicians, now go back to your programming you know nothing about this.
Smalltime bands dont make a PENNY of Album sales. According to their countries with the RIAA, unless you sell over a certain number of CDs you dont earn a PENNY. Record companies give you an advance, this pays for your video, your MTV airtime, and any other made up costs they want to pin onto this. They then tell the musician that they must sell triple platinium before they can earn a profit.
This means you wont see a penny from selling your Album unless you sell to millions of people.
Small bands do not sell to millions of people, so how are they making money? Tours, Clubs, Djing, going on the radio and doing live mixes, Concerts.
If you give your music away you can then have millions of fans, you can then put on your website a list of places you will be touring to, and sell your tickets for say $15 a person.
Lets say the place takes $5 per person out of this $15, you get $10 per person.
Lets say you put on 5 shows in new york, and 25,000 people pay $5.
Thats $25,000x5, this is over $100,000!!!!
Lets say you go to LA, sell 10,000 tickets, $5x10,000 = $50,000 and then take a plane to London and play your music there, another 10,000 tickets sold.
Over a 6 month period, you could easily make a few hundred thousand dollars touring. This is more than you'd make if you sold millions of CDs.
You act like Musicians get $15 per CD sale, they dont even get 50 cent per CD sold. So if you are looking at 25-50 cent per CD and you do sell a 2 million CDs, you'll only make $500.000, the first million CDs sold will go to the record company to pay for all the promotion they did.
So in the end you are talking about $500,000 for selling a million CDs, vs maybe $300,000 going on tour and selling 0 CDs.
The difference is, its very difficult to sell more than 3 million CDs, its easy to sell tickets when you have name recognition, and the more people who hear your music, the more your concerts will sellout, eventually you'll be touring Tokyo Japan where little kids heard your music on the net, you'll tour Europe where people who normally wouldnt even know who you are will have heard your stuff online.
This is how it works. I know musicians who do this. You give your CD as marketing instead of letting the RIAA sell your CD as marketing, you cut the RIAA out and you get increased profits because theres no middleman.
Maybe by having a large amount of fans? How do you get a large amount of fans? Maybe by letting a large amount of people hear your music?
Connect the dots.
If you can do anything you like with your body why cant you do anything you like with your computer?
The RIAA not only takes away the rights from creators through the use of capital, they also profit on the behalf of the creators.
Why cant we consider the RIAA's pirates? They didnt create they art, they just profit from it.
We can turn that around and spin it the opposite way. If the minority in Germany were jews and owned all the businesses, and wanted to keep the majority from ever having a chance at those businesses, its the same situation.
Look at South Africa, until recently the majority was oppressed by the white minority.
suppose coming up with this belief helps a lot to reduce the pangs of guilt while you are ripping off other working class people like artists.
Eminem is working class?
Not a single one of these people owns an expensive car. None of them jet off to london to jam with the stones. Only a few of them own their own house, something that has long been heralded as basic achievement of working class people. Many work part or full time in record stores, recording studios, restaurants and bars. When we go out to lunch most of the time it's at a place that a burrito and a coke will cost you less than $5.
Really? So how do musicians make their money? Thats right they get on a jet and go to London to play their music in front of thousands of fans.
Let me tell you the other side of the story. I know dozens of people who make their living either in whole or in part due to creating music on records.
Artists dont make money off records, record companies make money off records. What artist do you know who makes 100% of their income from record sales? Most artists i know make the majority of their money at the clubs and concerts, they call it the scene, and its the scene that produces income, not the records.
These are the upper class elite you're talking about?
Eminem, Dr.Dre, and the corperate CEOs who own most of the copyright and who sell most of the CDs. Most of the people you mention arent making any money because they are too stupid to go on tour, and use the internet to build enough popularity to have a big enough fanbase to go on tour.
Are these the greedy people bilking you out of your hard earned money to scam you with music? No, they are working class americans. Based on your arguments about the evils of capitalism and copyright one would assume that file swappers would not be sharing music by these people, right? Well, of course they are though. Search for any number of these bands on p2p apps and you'll find their whole albums ready to download.
Bullshit, the people who work for the RIAA arent creating any music, these guys are suddenly working class? Hilary Rosen is working class? Where do you get this bullshit from?
A few years ago, an old friend joined their band... Now this guy was a bit different, he had been in a popular san francisco band that had toured internationally and consequently had made somewhat of a name for himself. Him joining was probably going to help them all make more of a living out of making their music. They made a new album and played a few shows locally to introduce the new guy. The album was available for sale on their website. About a month after their cd release I was told a sobering tale from my friend the sound engineer. The band had recieved a large amount of positive feedback on the new album... over a hundred and fifty people had written to tell them that the new album was great, that they loved it. The problem? Between the CD sales at the concerts and online, they had sold less than 100 copies
Maybe if you and your band werent such idiots, you'd instead of worrying about selling your CD, you'd use it to promote your tours. Your CD is marketing, just like for movies, the trailers are marketing to get you to go to the theater, use the marketing, if so many people liked your music, why dont you go on tour and play before a sellout crowd, you'd make x10 more money than you'd make selling CDs, of course its more work to go on tour, and you are just too afraid to admit that you are lazy. Maybe if you worked hard you'd make money, but thinking people will buy your CD in this era, forget it.
More people had loved the album enough to write in an congratulate them on it than had bought the album in the first place. And we know most people who get an album (either bought or copied) aren't going to write the band. So here were working class guys with a shot at getting a bit more for their labor essentially shot down by music pira
Just like you shouldnt be able to "own" math and language. It stops progress.
The information is not what the musician owns, the musician owns the right to copy that information.
Copyright is not the same as "intellectual property".
You ignore the whole point of why copyright was created, it was not created as corperate welfare, it was created to promote progress. Now its slowing progress.
So if 60 million people wanted to rape your wife, and only your family disagreed, you would support their freedom to do with her what they would? Of course not, modern society recognizes that human rights are not dictated by those who have the biggest stick, or the biggest constituency.
We arent talking about rape, murder, etc. Please do not try to spin this debate by comparing copying with murder and rape, thats ridiculous. No human is harmed by copying a file. Rape is wrong because someone is harmed when you rape.
You arent harmed when I copy something, you arent harmed when I download something, and you arent harmed when I share something. Musicians arent harmed when their fans copy and share their music, musicians actually want this because like a politician, having name recognition actually helps them when its time to go on tour.
The only people who are harmed by copying are people who want to control the distribution of music. The RIAA does not want the distribution of music to be free, the RIAA knows they cannot control the music industry if Musicians can directly sell or give their music to the fans. The RIAA knows they will go out of business if the Musicians gain freedom from the RIAA's contracts and fans gain freedom to share music.
Face it, everyone benefits from this situation but the RIAA, and the RIAA does not create the content, nor do they provide any money to the content creators, they arent a part of this industry anymore.
There has got to be thousands of great thinkers rolling over in their graves right now to think that your idea of freedom of speech (which you are blessed with) is there to allow you to mass copy someone else work because you want to enjoy it but dont want to pay for it.
Ok i want you to pay the Newton family for calculus, pay einstiens family, pay the egyptian government for stealing their math to use on your homework, pay the africans for stealing the drum, pay for the right to use a wheel to whoever created it and if you cannot find out who did pay whichever country represents them, how many things would you be able to afford?
Lets see, a calculate would be out of your range, math would be too expensive for you to use, your use of English would be very limited, your use of technology would be very limited, you wouldnt be able to create music because someone will have a copyright or patent on almost every note, there will be copyrights on every beat/pattern.
So tell me whats the point of this? Progress would slow down to a crawl, most people wouldnt be able to afford music, math would be too expensive so even if you are a math genius you wont be able to contribute to society simply because you wont be able to afford to use the math thats under copyrights and patents.
Addition, Subtraction, Multiplication, they'd all be under patents and you'd have to pay each time you want to use them, and if you want to use algebra you'll have to pay for every formula, every algorithm, every use of the basics of subtraction, multiplication and division.
Look, the computer would not exist, because every computer owner would have to pay per a license to use a CPU due to the math a CPU does.
You wouldnt have computers because software would cost billions of dollars to make, games would cost a fortune to make because not only would programmers have to license the math, they'd have to license the artwork, the algorithms, the programming language itself would have to be paid for, the music would cost millions of dollars because you'd have to pay for every beat, tone, and rhythm simply because your yourself wasnt the first to discover it. The calculus involved in making the 3d engine would require you license perhaps thousands of algorithms and formulas.
Lets set a reasonable price of $20 each time you use it. Can you afford to use a calculator if it costs $20 per calculation?
Read a a dictionary you stupid moron. This is theft.
Main Entry: theft
Pronunciation: 'theft
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English thiefthe, from Old English thIefth; akin to Old English thEof thief
Date: before 12th century
1 a : the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it b : an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property
2 obsolete : something stolen
3 : a stolen base in baseball
at the expense of those who produce the content can only hurt the arguments for more digital freedom
So its ok for the RIAA to claim create and own content they didnt create, but its not ok for the public domain to own contact which it didnt create?
Why the double standard? The RIAA does not produce the content, their employees do, and their employees do not make money off of lawsuits against the very fans these employees need to go on tour.
You dont know what you are talkinng about.
The whole reason we claimed to have liberated Iraq and the whole problem with the soviet union according to our government was lack of democracy.
So now democracy is communism?!
Exactly, the whole concept of owning thoughts is an attempt to profit off of things which arent even tangible, and I honestly disagree with this idea entirely, infact its totally against my whole religion and belief system to believe someone can own information.
Also I look down the road, the way the world currently works, he who owns the money owns all the knowledge, imagine if you have no money, well you wont be able to get knowledge either, its like slavery. When there was slavery, slaves werent taught to read so they would stay stupid, its the same thing, why let the masses have access to information, the rich elite can keep all the information to themselves and always have the advantage on us.
I bet they hate the internet because now the playing field is leveled, a kid in nigeria can learn C, learn all the technology, and get a job as a programmer.
You just say that because you want to keep your slaves and your witch trials. Guns are sold because we need to keep the king of england off our backs, and overthrow our government. Oh, yea, also so citizens can kill citizens with extreme efficiency and speed.
Without guns, the government could make everyone into slaves.
Yes and most individuals prefer freedom.
. Freedom of speech protects the individual more so than the majority. Freedom to peaceably to assemble and freedom of the press protect the majority. It also protects the individual, because it will be the individual on trial for their life, not a group.
Yes but in this case, theres not even a balance, the vast majority of individuals want a free internet. Theres nothing to debate when its 60 million vs maybe 1 million.
Most producers of music ARE NOT making money from CD sales.
Most producers of music are DJs, you know the one you see at the club you go to. Or bands, you know the band you see playing for tips. They dont have record contracts with the RIAA, and if they have contracts at all its with indie labels who actually PROFIT from the internet.
Most of these people know how to profit from the digital world, they put their music on P2P networks to gain popularity so they can go on tour, CD sales were never a big deal to the average musician unless that musician sells millions of CDs. The average musician sells thousands of CDs, a very good musician sells maybe 50,000-100.000 CDs in a year.
CDs to these people are marketing devices, like advertisements, these people make more money going on tours in Europe playing live concerts to their online fans than they EVER could have made if they didnt have the net to attract people from all around the world to their music.
You cant make money from your music unless you have a fanbase, you cannot get a fan base if only people who buy your music get to hear you. This means you MUST play and give free music to profit. You must build your reputation before clubs and other places will hire you.
You must not know anything about the music industry, I actually make music and I know what I'm talking about.
Would I like someone to steal my music? First I dont own it, I sell a service, you hire me and I create music for your party, your club, your wedding, etc. You hire me and I'll make you some great music, I'll be an awesome DJ, and if you like my music enough, you'll pay to come see me play my music.
The truth is, I know that if I have any talent at all at making music, that no one else is going to be able to make the sounds that I make, no one will be able to recreate the experience of hearing me live, so you can have your recorded music, thats yours, what I own is the art.
Music is an art to some people and its a business to others, let the music businessmen go out of business, people would get better music.
I'm sure fans of Eminem would rather have Eminem playing live shows at their party than buy Eminems CD.
"And have you ever heard of the tyranny of the majority? Isn't the US the country where a minority is supposed to stand a chance against getting squashed by the sheep-like masses of the majority? Nothing is making any 100,000 people more important than any other 60 million; the whole point is that minority views are heard and their rights respected and protected, regardless of who they are."
The rights of the minority and the rights of the majority are NOT compatible!
We can go one way or the other, its just like the union vs the confederate, The only difference this time is one side vastly outnumbers the other side.
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