You can design hot rod parts for custom mods for people. You can design race car parts that you can sell to racers.
You can. I'm sure, though, if Ford found out you were doing that while working for them, they would claim ownership of the designs, and fire you/sue you if you refused to turn them over. Ford invests incredible amounts of money in racing.
Just as with software. Just because you are a "software developer" does not mean that all software you develop should therefore be owned by the company if you do it on your own time. It's like being a chef for a restraunt. You can still do catering for parties in your free time and the company doesn't get x% of your profits (unless you use the company's food).
That argument doesn't parallel.
Restaurants can't profit from food you created on a catering job, it's physical and it expires. Ideas do not expire. A proper parallel would be a recipe you invented, though recipes are un-own-able, whereas software and ideas are.
Only to the degree that I'm competing with Ford. Ford doesn't make fuzzy dice; if I come up with radical new fuzzy dice design, Ford can't say, "We like it! It's ours because of your non-compete, sux0rs to be you!!"
That's because you don't engineer fuzzy dice, and fuzzy dice don't compete with engineered car parts.
Now, you might have a contract that says every electrical impluse in your bervous systems belongs to Ford, but the legality of that contract is highly suspect.
The legality of idea-ownership clauses, however, has been and will continue to be enforced in court.
It might be the point you intended to make; however, statements like "If you don't like that, then you shouldn't be working for other people, because you're being selfish." don't seem to track with that very well.
That goes back to my Ford argument; don't agree to work for a company that does X, and then do X in your spare time for your personal gain, that's unethical and selfish.
Right. So it's unethical to denounce crime, and then make a living compiling crime statistics, since you're making money from the very crime that has been denounced.
You obviously are talking out your ass and have no idea about contract law or idea ownership when it comes to companies that do R&D. I'm assuming that's why you're posting anonymously.
This isn't black and white; generally speaking, free consulting falls into the "helping my dad with his computer" category.
If you're taking away from potential profits to the employer, then yes, you are competing. Your dad would never pay for the consulting from your company, but a company might (though why you'd give away free consulting to a company is beyond me.)
You seem to be under the impression that contracts overrride law, which they don't.
You seem to be under the impression that your ideas belong to you, even when you sign your rights to them away in a contract, which by the way is perfectly legal.
You also seem to be under the impression that a company leveraging every means at its disposal to make money is moral while a private person doing it is not. You are ALSO assuming that an employee is obligated to provide for the well being of his employer 24/7, with no commesurate obligation from the employer.
First of all, I didn't say that. I said if you're working for a company and you've signed away the rights to your ideas, you shouldn't be trying to skirt around your contract and be all shady. You shouldn't be competing with a company you work for, you are expected to contribute positively and NOT affect the company negatively in any way.
By the way, does your employer give you health benefits? Money? Last time I checked those were valid 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
On behalf of workers everywhere, I'd like to give you a big Fuck You. Employee protection laws exist for a reason.
Employee protection laws exist so the companies don't exploit the workers, just like non-compete, non-disclosure, and idea-ownership clauses exist so the workers don't fuck over the companies.
You have a responsibility to the company you work for. If the company is doing something obviously illegal, yeah, go ahead and blow that whistle, but no company is out of line expecting you to not solely profit from your ideas when you signed your rights to them away.
If you can't keep your word -- which is what your contract is -- you're a dishonest fuck who has no business being in the workplace.
Complain about crooked companies all you want, there are just as many crooked employees like you walking around.
Non-compete is completely different from "all your ideas are belong to us".
Not entirely. Does your company do R&D? Develop new ideas? If so, chances are your contract states that ideas you create are the property of the company. And rightfully so, the expectation of you as an employee is not just to get work done, but to be an asset to the company and advance it. If you don't like that, then you shouldn't be working for other people, because you're being selfish.
Uh, his employer tries to lay claim to work done in his off hours, and he's the one with the bad attitude?
It's probably in his contract, he works for a software company so he's competing directly with his company, etc. etc... as far as I can see he's got no legs to stand on.
Did you sign a contract that states that what you create belongs to your employer? If so, then they're not stealing, they're taking what rightfully belongs to them -- you're the one ripping them off.
The assumption, when you work for a company, is that you will not be attempting to compete with the company you work for. It's like doing freelance consulting in your spare time when you work for a consulting company during the day. At the very least, it's shady.
It seems like you don't want to contribute to the company you work for, you're just there for the paycheck. That's a really bad attitude.
Yeah, and while we're at it, we can go after people that compile crime statistics for a living, since technically they're profiting from illegal actions too, right?
You also neglected log-in time for the Linux machine, since you left your neo account logged in -- deliciously ironic considering that you belong to such a security-conscious community.
Well, you could respond to spam, they get the referral fee, but you find out who got the spammer to send the spam, and then publicize the shit out of them in an effort to put them out of business.
If you put the people that support spam out of business, they won't be hiring spammers, and people who see what's going on won't either...?
Hey everybody! We should completely disregard all research that's been done on the topic of the explosion of the Hindenburg, because because fnj said it was hydrogen without any factual basis, but what the fuck let's believe him anyway.
From the page: "We can say with the utmost certainly that the Hindenburg disaster of May 6, 1937 was caused by the very fabric of the great vessel itself."
Slashdot Mirror
People who have insane amounts of drive and passion for life and their work (like Bill Gates) have plenty of friends.
People like you that are paranoid and cynical about everything alienate others, and are the ones without friends.
ASP.Net doesn't suck. At all.
Amen, brotha!
I can't imagine having to use MySQL after reading that -- I'd imagine the intense pain would be rivaled only by barbed wire enemas and the like.
Are they having a hard time convincing you to try mySQL, too? ;-)
You can design hot rod parts for custom mods for people. You can design race car parts that you can sell to racers.
You can. I'm sure, though, if Ford found out you were doing that while working for them, they would claim ownership of the designs, and fire you/sue you if you refused to turn them over. Ford invests incredible amounts of money in racing.
Just as with software. Just because you are a "software developer" does not mean that all software you develop should therefore be owned by the company if you do it on your own time. It's like being a chef for a restraunt. You can still do catering for parties in your free time and the company doesn't get x% of your profits (unless you use the company's food).
That argument doesn't parallel.
Restaurants can't profit from food you created on a catering job, it's physical and it expires. Ideas do not expire. A proper parallel would be a recipe you invented, though recipes are un-own-able, whereas software and ideas are.
Only to the degree that I'm competing with Ford. Ford doesn't make fuzzy dice; if I come up with radical new fuzzy dice design, Ford can't say, "We like it! It's ours because of your non-compete, sux0rs to be you!!"
That's because you don't engineer fuzzy dice, and fuzzy dice don't compete with engineered car parts.
Now, you might have a contract that says every electrical impluse in your bervous systems belongs to Ford, but the legality of that contract is highly suspect.
The legality of idea-ownership clauses, however, has been and will continue to be enforced in court.
It might be the point you intended to make; however, statements like "If you don't like that, then you shouldn't be working for other people, because you're being selfish." don't seem to track with that very well.
That goes back to my Ford argument; don't agree to work for a company that does X, and then do X in your spare time for your personal gain, that's unethical and selfish.
I hope you get caught.
By the way, I don't own a company, I work for one.
Right. So it's unethical to denounce crime, and then make a living compiling crime statistics, since you're making money from the very crime that has been denounced.
I eagerly await your next immature reply.
You obviously are talking out your ass and have no idea about contract law or idea ownership when it comes to companies that do R&D. I'm assuming that's why you're posting anonymously.
This isn't black and white; generally speaking, free consulting falls into the "helping my dad with his computer" category.
If you're taking away from potential profits to the employer, then yes, you are competing. Your dad would never pay for the consulting from your company, but a company might (though why you'd give away free consulting to a company is beyond me.)
If you are an engineer for Ford, you CANNOT go home and design car components in your spare time for your own personal gain.
That restriction doesn't make you a slave. That's the point I am making.
Is everyone here honestly that dense?
You seem to be under the impression that contracts overrride law, which they don't.
You seem to be under the impression that your ideas belong to you, even when you sign your rights to them away in a contract, which by the way is perfectly legal.
You also seem to be under the impression that a company leveraging every means at its disposal to make money is moral while a private person doing it is not. You are ALSO assuming that an employee is obligated to provide for the well being of his employer 24/7, with no commesurate obligation from the employer.
First of all, I didn't say that. I said if you're working for a company and you've signed away the rights to your ideas, you shouldn't be trying to skirt around your contract and be all shady. You shouldn't be competing with a company you work for, you are expected to contribute positively and NOT affect the company negatively in any way.
By the way, does your employer give you health benefits? Money? Last time I checked those were valid 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
On behalf of workers everywhere, I'd like to give you a big Fuck You. Employee protection laws exist for a reason.
Employee protection laws exist so the companies don't exploit the workers, just like non-compete, non-disclosure, and idea-ownership clauses exist so the workers don't fuck over the companies.
You have a responsibility to the company you work for. If the company is doing something obviously illegal, yeah, go ahead and blow that whistle, but no company is out of line expecting you to not solely profit from your ideas when you signed your rights to them away.
If you can't keep your word -- which is what your contract is -- you're a dishonest fuck who has no business being in the workplace.
Complain about crooked companies all you want, there are just as many crooked employees like you walking around.
How is it sneaky and underhanded? If you DON'T LIKE THE CONTRACT, you DON'T SIGN IT.
For Christ's sake people, learn how to take responsibility for your own actions!
Non-compete is completely different from "all your ideas are belong to us".
Not entirely. Does your company do R&D? Develop new ideas? If so, chances are your contract states that ideas you create are the property of the company. And rightfully so, the expectation of you as an employee is not just to get work done, but to be an asset to the company and advance it. If you don't like that, then you shouldn't be working for other people, because you're being selfish.
Uh, his employer tries to lay claim to work done in his off hours, and he's the one with the bad attitude?
It's probably in his contract, he works for a software company so he's competing directly with his company, etc. etc... as far as I can see he's got no legs to stand on.
Did you sign a contract that states that what you create belongs to your employer? If so, then they're not stealing, they're taking what rightfully belongs to them -- you're the one ripping them off.
The assumption, when you work for a company, is that you will not be attempting to compete with the company you work for. It's like doing freelance consulting in your spare time when you work for a consulting company during the day. At the very least, it's shady.
It seems like you don't want to contribute to the company you work for, you're just there for the paycheck. That's a really bad attitude.
Just getting the obligatory "this is a good thing" comment out of the way. :-)
Yeah, and while we're at it, we can go after people that compile crime statistics for a living, since technically they're profiting from illegal actions too, right?
Duh...
On a Windows box: net stop matrixd.
You also neglected log-in time for the Linux machine, since you left your neo account logged in -- deliciously ironic considering that you belong to such a security-conscious community.
Well, you could respond to spam, they get the referral fee, but you find out who got the spammer to send the spam, and then publicize the shit out of them in an effort to put them out of business.
If you put the people that support spam out of business, they won't be hiring spammers, and people who see what's going on won't either...?
Just a thought.
"What other ways can people think of to attack the spammer business models, and what are the expected downsides of such approaches?"
Break their fucking legs, and arrest.
If the matrix was built on a Linux platform, it would never work, because device drivers for human beings wouldn't exist.
Hey everybody! We should completely disregard all research that's been done on the topic of the explosion of the Hindenburg, because because fnj said it was hydrogen without any factual basis, but what the fuck let's believe him anyway.
Here's a link to some research into what actually happened.
From the page: "We can say with the utmost certainly that the Hindenburg disaster of May 6, 1937 was caused by the very fabric of the great vessel itself."
If your conspiracy theory assumption was true, then "Linux Device Drivers" would have been at the top of the list.