MSDN?Subscriptions is pleased to announce that the MSDN Subscriber Download Web site at http://goatse.cx will soon be upgrading its logon authentication technology to Microsoft?Passport.
Microsoft Passport provides personal exploitation services that make it easier for everybody to navigate your personal details between Web sites, and makes it faster and more secure for others to make purchases online for you.
Beginning in late June, the MSDN Subscriber Download Web site will bugger you to sign up for your personal Passport and associate your current subscriber record, social security details, marital status, medical results, driving habits, etc. to this Passport. After signing up, access to MSDN Subscriber Downloads will be easier, faster, and more secure - not you, I mean, others can.
For complete details of your own personal details, please visit http://www.passport.com - your personal details are already there.
What you said is true. As a sidenote, with a bit of work PGP trust can be transitive without getting thru public key server. CA(Certificate Authority) is a good example.
Say a root CA A issues CA B, which in turn issues CA C. Carol's public key is digitally signed with CA C. Since Alice only has root CA A which comes with her browser by default(like Verisign). Alice then use CA B to verify CA C, then use root CA A to verify B. By this transitive relationship Alice can then trust Carol's public key as she can trust root CA A.
Too bad applying for a personal/server CA from root CA like Verisign is quite expensive. A free public key server is still very important to us.  _ /. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
We don't expect panelists to change their believes in the discussion. Rather we learn from them. e.g.(extracted from the discussion):
JVDeLong:...I don't think Bruce is quite on target. The MS license says only that a developer cannot incorporate code from these tools into a program. This strikes me as a necessary provision. The tools can still be used, though.
Bruce_Perens: I think you did not read that license carefully enough. Please take another look at this line in the MS license:
(ii) not using Potentially Viral Software (e.g. tools) to develop Recipient software which includes the Software, in whole or in part.
....this reads pretty clearly as a restriction on the use of tools. Not on the creation of derived works containing those tools as you assert. Perhaps you missed that line in the license?
David_McGowan:... I read this language as Bruce does. "The Software" is a defined term that refers to MS's software. DM
That's very interesting, I had doubt after reading/. comments on the same issue now I learn a bit more on legalese..okay it doesn't make me a lawyer but at least I learn not to confuse Potentially Viral Software with Software.:)
for his bravery. He's badly outnumbered, but he's still gladly participating. I know many people would think Craig is *cough* retarded, but he's surely brave.
Ancient Chinese soldiers worn a big Chinese word 'BRAVE' on their chest. Their emperor hoped that they'd charge(to death) regardless of all the difficulities.
Now I can see someone has put a big 'BRAVE' on his chest....poor Craig...
P.S. The era I spoke of is the last tyranny of China.  _ /. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
Could anyone explain what the point of Public Key Servers is?
I wonder why this was mod'd as 'Funny'. It's a pretty good question.:)
It's not like 'centralizing' security responsibility as in 'Passport' services. It's a part of key-management/key-distribution in public-key encription system.
In layman's term, having a centralized public keys repository could help maintaining higher security comparing with requesting public key from an individual by email.
Say you'd like to send a confidential message to A, and you start by requesting A his public key; if an intruder is listening to your email, and learn from your initial public-key request mail that you are going to have a secure transfer, then the intruder might be able to impersonate A and send you a fake public-key.
That's more issues on it, just gave you a very simple exmaple....anyway I wish it helps.  _ /. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
to order someone to work on something he or she doesn't want to work
*THAT* is not unique to MS. I still remember when I were working at IBM. Do JCL? Sure. PL/I? Sure, MVS? Here we go. REXX/VM? Count on me. Testing hundreds modules by feeding in data each with a digit difference? No probelm!
Then I got hepatitis A and in hostipal for a month(I got 8000 ALT, norm is below 50). I learned *not* to take work without hesitation. When I refused to work on a database system which has only one customer worldwide, I got 'insubrodinate' in my review.  _ /. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
I agree. Our PHBs depend on their data a great deal. May be it's wrong to pick 10 highest modup question. Sometime modded up doesn't really up to the point.  _ /. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
Well, the brief was, find out what commercial products this could be used in place of. Oracle 7 is still a very capable product, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if many of the apps now being coded against Oracle 8.1.6 could be made to run on it with trivial changes (again, so long as you aren't using the exotic data types, yadda yadda).
I see your point. I missed one thing that I'm more than excited to find an opensource database system close to Oracle 7. Honestly I'm still supporting Oracle 7.3.:)  _ /. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
but Passport user authentication system which Hailstorm depends on is everywhere. If you don't use it you are on your own.
Gates is looking to take Oracle and SAP to the cleaners, Hailstorm is the smokescreen for that agenda.
Smart admin would avoid their Oracle and SAP servers be able to publicly accessible. E.g. the websites only get a snapshot of the Oracle database image from an internal Oracle server. What.NET does would compromise the security by centalizing the authenication to somewhere else, while putting Oracle and SAP servers at risk of being publicly accessible.
Oracle and SAP see this, but they'll still cooperate with.NET, as there are lots more idiots who believe everything sales said. I know a PHB putting employees database in a public webserver. Microsoft needs customers like him.
Network Computers failed for the very good reason that MIS managers looking to torture their victims
Nothing torture me like admin hundreds Windows 95/98 desktops.
 _ /. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
Oracle discontinued 7.3's support line on 31 Dec 1999, and some could extend the support til 31 Dec 2000. Governments probably could extend more.
I understand it means a lot to have a comparable strength with an enterprise database...but talk about comparing old and obsoleted products....  _ /. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
I'm sure the fact that you can buy a complete PC for what a NC cost had nothing to do with their demise.
Just my personal opinion and you've all the right to disagree.:)
The virtue of NC is not on saving hardware cost, rather it aimed at reducing administration time and cost.
During the time when NC were hyped I read an article on how messy is for a company to maintain hundreds of computers which are hard to control and maintain remotely. Consider the cost of fighting virus and illegal/misuse of individual computer within a company the concern is legitimate.
Even now I do think admin hundreds Windows 95/98 is like hell. I could never know what the users would do next, because they could almost do everything. Buying PCAnywhere? That'd add up to the cost. (Yes I know NetBus is free, but I don't want to eat lawsuit. ^_^)
(to be fair, life would be a lot easier if all workstations are NT, but then the cost would be must higher).
I'm sure what you said is true, PC's cost is comparable to NC. A PC is surely more suitable to home user, but for the corporate use I think NC is more appropriate.
Microsoft did everything to crash NC I can see it, and we can understand why. They made a big deal about the cost, and SUN's sales and market was by no mean be able to fight again MS'.:)  _ /. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
Oh God, have other cult members done an identity check on her to make sure she's not a secret agent from evil empire to control our beloved's mind?  _ /. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
Re:they really need to hire better people
on
VA Layoff Rumors
·
· Score: 2
Man that is really not fair. Nobody knows everything. I've been tripped up by silly little things in areas that I would consider myself rather expertish. When a customer did ask him something he couldn't figure out at least he knew where to go get help, #debian would be a good place for help. Most importantly he asked, he didn't brush it off or try and BS his way through it.
I happened to be a VA customers too and I think that'd be funny if I dialed to their technical end up meeting him in #debian asking me questions.:)
I think if more support people knew when to cut out and get more information there would be a lot more happy customer's in the world. This guy finding someone to help him out so he could, in turn, help his customer is a great endorsement for VA in my books.
I know I'm not being fair to this guy here. Let me explain in general. I've the very old preconception on technical support which I paid a lot of money for. HP were excellent in technical support because their engineers seemed to know everything. When they have complicated problems they will turn to global support repository until a solution comming out. Oracle, on the other hand, would even ask a portion of your code to help you debugging. That's what I mean in technical support. I definitely not refer to something like AOL technical support.:)
I hang around #debian a lot, and sometime there are some nasty trolls took calls and BS around; and more often you met with some BSD activists bashing Linux whenever people asking question(that's annoying, I know BSD is great, but so what, that's a linux channel. Can't they just shutup if they don't wanna help?). Of course there are lots more helpful and smart people but that's just not the service level a paid customer would expect of.
P.S. Normal commercial grade M1-3 tech support would cost you 5-25% of original purchase. That's quite a lot.  _ /. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
I forgot where I read(may be here in/.) that/. is actually generate quite an amount of revenue, while sourceforge is in debt all the time. I'll post a 'Ask in/.' asking everybody suggestions to save no-so-good projects in VA to survive.:)  _ /. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
Slashdot Mirror
*YAWN*
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
 _
Dear MSDN subscriber,
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
MSDN?Subscriptions is pleased to announce that the MSDN Subscriber Download Web site at http://goatse.cx will soon be upgrading its logon authentication technology to Microsoft?Passport.
Microsoft Passport provides personal exploitation services that make it easier for everybody to navigate your personal details between Web sites, and makes it faster and more secure for others to make purchases online for you.
Beginning in late June, the MSDN Subscriber Download Web site will bugger you to sign up for your personal Passport and associate your current subscriber record, social security details, marital status, medical results, driving habits, etc. to this Passport. After signing up, access to MSDN Subscriber Downloads will be easier, faster, and more secure - not you, I mean, others can.
For complete details of your own personal details, please visit http://www.passport.com - your personal details are already there.
Sincerely,
The MSDN Subreptitious Team
 _
What you said is true. As a sidenote, with a bit of work PGP trust can be transitive without getting thru public key server. CA(Certificate Authority) is a good example.
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
Say a root CA A issues CA B, which in turn issues CA C. Carol's public key is digitally signed with CA C. Since Alice only has root CA A which comes with her browser by default(like Verisign). Alice then use CA B to verify CA C, then use root CA A to verify B. By this transitive relationship Alice can then trust Carol's public key as she can trust root CA A.
Too bad applying for a personal/server CA from root CA like Verisign is quite expensive. A free public key server is still very important to us.
 _
only one man defending a policy against a whole bunch of others is a little short-sighted.
:D
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
Craig is not the only one on MS' side, look at Brett Glass' posts.(i'm surprise, though)
But I don't see why you said the others are short-sighted...can you explain?
Too bad RMS quit, BTW
He's busy dating!
 _
A Zen general would have tattooed 'BRAVE' on his soldier's backs.
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
Oh I didn't mean the tattoo. The 'BRAVE' was put on their clothes, during Qing Era of China.
I think they've something else on their back, but I don't recall.
 _
We don't expect panelists to change their believes in the discussion. Rather we learn from them. e.g.(extracted from the discussion):
:...I don't think Bruce is quite on target. The MS license says only that a developer cannot incorporate code from these tools into a program. This strikes me as a necessary provision. The tools can still be used, though.
: I think you did not read that license carefully enough. Please take another look at this line in the MS license:
....this reads pretty clearly as a restriction on the use of tools. Not on the creation of derived works containing those tools as you assert. Perhaps you missed that line in the license?
:... I read this language as Bruce does. "The Software" is a defined term that refers to MS's software. DM
/. comments on the same issue now I learn a bit more on legalese..okay it doesn't make me a lawyer but at least I learn not to confuse Potentially Viral Software with Software. :)
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
JVDeLong
Bruce_Perens
(ii) not using Potentially Viral Software (e.g. tools) to develop Recipient software which includes the Software, in whole or in part.
David_McGowan
That's very interesting, I had doubt after reading
 _
this one is funny too? someone must think that the "public key server" is a funny word...
:)
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
I'd wonder how people would rate if I talked about 'Passport Service'(Score:5 Funny as hell)?
 _
for his bravery. He's badly outnumbered, but he's still gladly participating. I know many people would think Craig is *cough* retarded, but he's surely brave.
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
Ancient Chinese soldiers worn a big Chinese word 'BRAVE' on their chest. Their emperor hoped that they'd charge(to death) regardless of all the difficulities.
Now I can see someone has put a big 'BRAVE' on his chest....poor Craig...
P.S. The era I spoke of is the last tyranny of China.
 _
it sure feels wrong somehow.
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
Not really, look at Redhat Enterprise Edition Optimized for Oracle 8i. I'd recommend people buy it when there's a need.
You can hire me to optimize your Oracle server on Linux, but I'd probably charge you more than $2500. ^_^
Commercial needs commercial grade solutions. It's not about the cost, it's about 'saving cost'.
 _
Could anyone explain what the point of Public Key Servers is?
:)
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
I wonder why this was mod'd as 'Funny'. It's a pretty good question.
It's not like 'centralizing' security responsibility as in 'Passport' services. It's a part of key-management/key-distribution in public-key encription system.
In layman's term, having a centralized public keys repository could help maintaining higher security comparing with requesting public key from an individual by email.
Say you'd like to send a confidential message to A, and you start by requesting A his public key; if an intruder is listening to your email, and learn from your initial public-key request mail that you are going to have a secure transfer, then the intruder might be able to impersonate A and send you a fake public-key.
That's more issues on it, just gave you a very simple exmaple....anyway I wish it helps.
 _
And now it looks like Geos is being used in embedded solutions like the Nokia 9xxx phone.
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
Nokia 9110 is using GEOS, but the latest 9210 is using Symbian.
Just FYI.
 _
to order someone to work on something he or she doesn't want to work
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
*THAT* is not unique to MS. I still remember when I were working at IBM. Do JCL? Sure. PL/I? Sure, MVS? Here we go. REXX/VM? Count on me. Testing hundreds modules by feeding in data each with a digit difference? No probelm!
Then I got hepatitis A and in hostipal for a month(I got 8000 ALT, norm is below 50). I learned *not* to take work without hesitation. When I refused to work on a database system which has only one customer worldwide, I got 'insubrodinate' in my review.
 _
I agree. Our PHBs depend on their data a great deal. May be it's wrong to pick 10 highest modup question. Sometime modded up doesn't really up to the point.
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
 _
3. Microsoft invested $600 million in our company a year ago when we really, really needed it?
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
Is that your company running business burying ships deep into the sea, called US NAVY?
 _
Warning! Threshold=2! Say something interesting or you will be totally ignored!
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
I set to 3, and I got smarter everyday.
 _
Well, the brief was, find out what commercial products this could be used in place of. Oracle 7 is still a very capable product, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if many of the apps now being coded against Oracle 8.1.6 could be made to run on it with trivial changes (again, so long as you aren't using the exotic data types, yadda yadda).
:)
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
I see your point. I missed one thing that I'm more than excited to find an opensource database system close to Oracle 7. Honestly I'm still supporting Oracle 7.3.
 _
Why pro Microsoft always talk last? Anyway.
.NET does would compromise the security by centalizing the authenication to somewhere else, while putting Oracle and SAP servers at risk of being publicly accessible.
.NET, as there are lots more idiots who believe everything sales said. I know a PHB putting employees database in a public webserver. Microsoft needs customers like him.
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
Hailstorm is only one small part of dotNET
but Passport user authentication system which Hailstorm depends on is everywhere. If you don't use it you are on your own.
Gates is looking to take Oracle and SAP to the cleaners, Hailstorm is the smokescreen for that agenda.
Smart admin would avoid their Oracle and SAP servers be able to publicly accessible. E.g. the websites only get a snapshot of the Oracle database image from an internal Oracle server. What
Oracle and SAP see this, but they'll still cooperate with
Network Computers failed for the very good reason that MIS managers looking to torture their victims
Nothing torture me like admin hundreds Windows 95/98 desktops.
 _
found it was equivalent to Oracle 7.3.2
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
Oracle discontinued 7.3's support line on 31 Dec 1999, and some could extend the support til 31 Dec 2000. Governments probably could extend more.
I understand it means a lot to have a comparable strength with an enterprise database...but talk about comparing old and obsoleted products....
 _
Can someone present an argument PRO .net beyond M$'s security and uptime smokescreen ?
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
*scratch his head hard* No....
 _
I'm sure the fact that you can buy a complete PC for what a NC cost had nothing to do with their demise.
:)
:)
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
Just my personal opinion and you've all the right to disagree.
The virtue of NC is not on saving hardware cost, rather it aimed at reducing administration time and cost.
During the time when NC were hyped I read an article on how messy is for a company to maintain hundreds of computers which are hard to control and maintain remotely. Consider the cost of fighting virus and illegal/misuse of individual computer within a company the concern is legitimate.
Even now I do think admin hundreds Windows 95/98 is like hell. I could never know what the users would do next, because they could almost do everything. Buying PCAnywhere? That'd add up to the cost. (Yes I know NetBus is free, but I don't want to eat lawsuit. ^_^)
(to be fair, life would be a lot easier if all workstations are NT, but then the cost would be must higher).
I'm sure what you said is true, PC's cost is comparable to NC. A PC is surely more suitable to home user, but for the corporate use I think NC is more appropriate.
Microsoft did everything to crash NC I can see it, and we can understand why. They made a big deal about the cost, and SUN's sales and market was by no mean be able to fight again MS'.
 _
And now that he's dating again
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
Oh God, have other cult members done an identity check on her to make sure she's not a secret agent from evil empire to control our beloved's mind?
 _
I can't help saying this when seeing your sig.
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
It doesn't need 5 monkeys to make up that law. You are insulting the monkeys.
 _
It's unacceptable! We are like Pacman? You mean we all eat pills in the darkness while listening to electronic music?
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
Oh wait.
 _
Man that is really not fair. Nobody knows everything. I've been tripped up by silly little things in areas that I would consider myself rather expertish. When a customer did ask him something he couldn't figure out at least he knew where to go get help, #debian would be a good place for help. Most importantly he asked, he didn't brush it off or try and BS his way through it.
:)
:)
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
I happened to be a VA customers too and I think that'd be funny if I dialed to their technical end up meeting him in #debian asking me questions.
I think if more support people knew when to cut out and get more information there would be a lot more happy customer's in the world. This guy finding someone to help him out so he could, in turn, help his customer is a great endorsement for VA in my books.
I know I'm not being fair to this guy here. Let me explain in general. I've the very old preconception on technical support which I paid a lot of money for. HP were excellent in technical support because their engineers seemed to know everything. When they have complicated problems they will turn to global support repository until a solution comming out. Oracle, on the other hand, would even ask a portion of your code to help you debugging. That's what I mean in technical support. I definitely not refer to something like AOL technical support.
I hang around #debian a lot, and sometime there are some nasty trolls took calls and BS around; and more often you met with some BSD activists bashing Linux whenever people asking question(that's annoying, I know BSD is great, but so what, that's a linux channel. Can't they just shutup if they don't wanna help?). Of course there are lots more helpful and smart people but that's just not the service level a paid customer would expect of.
P.S. Normal commercial grade M1-3 tech support would cost you 5-25% of original purchase. That's quite a lot.
 _
I forgot where I read(may be here in /.) that /. is actually generate quite an amount of revenue, while sourceforge is in debt all the time. I'll post a 'Ask in /.' asking everybody suggestions to save no-so-good projects in VA to survive. :)
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
 _