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MSDN Subscriber Forced to use Passport
Dear MSDN subscriber,
MSDN® Subscriptions is pleased to announce that the MSDN Subscriber Download Web site at http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscriptions/resources/ subdwnld.asp will soon be upgrading its logon authentication technology to Microsoft® Passport.
Microsoft Passport provides personal authentication services that make it easier for you to navigate between Web sites, and makes it faster and more secure for you to make purchases online.
Beginning in late June, the MSDN Subscriber Download Web site will prompt you to sign up for your personal Passport and associate your current subscriber record to this Passport. After signing up, access to MSDN Subscriber Downloads will be easier, faster, and more secure.
For complete details, and to sign up now for your free Microsoft Passport, please visit http://www.passport.com.
Sincerely,
The MSDN Subscriptions Team
http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscriptions
CT: So, if you want to write code under windows, you must use Passport. Or not use MSDN. And lets face it, if you develop under windows, you must buy MSs tools, and you sure can't use those tools without their docs. Times like this I just sorta throw my hands up in the air and say wow. How long before MSNBC requires it? Windows? IE? Your Visa company works with Microsoft Money, so you can bet that sooner or later, you'll need passport to balance your checkbook and credit cards. Paranoid delusion? Of course not. Windows XP will link my complaints to all sorts of helpful sources of information on medication that can be used to calm my delusions, or the numerous sites that exist to mock me or slashdot, thus undermining my credibility and making me seem like a crazy man to any onlooker.
Ok, I'm obviously exagerating. But you still gotta be a little wary.
Sounds to me like you haven't done your homework regarding "real compilers".
I'm working on a project that runs under Win NT/2k and *nix. On Windows I have things setup so that I can build with either MSVC V6.0 or gcc V2.95.3. Executables generated by gcc run significantly faster than those created by MSVC (with max optimization on both). This is true regardless of whether I build it to use the Cygwin DLL or MinGW. Just for good measure the gcc generated executables are considerably smaller.
BTW, did I mention that gcc also does a much better job of checking for ANSI compliance (-ansi -pedantic)? and generates much better, more thorough and infinitely more configurable warnings? or that it's C++ implementation is much closer to ISO compliance? or that it's ported to just about any platform you can name.
Still not good enough? I'll send you an update when gcc 3.0 is available under Cygwin.
~~~
I think Microsoft should be allowed to continue it's bundling techniques as long as they want to do so because eventually they will get the situation to the point where you're 100% microsoft or you can't use them at all.... and which way will most big companies go? Away from Microsoft, of course. There is no 100% Microsoft company (not even Microsoft itself!).
I am rather glad that the AOL talks fell through. Now I bet we'll see the browser wars start up again!
So use your JOB info. What is there to 'compromise'? e.g., all software here is registered to "Software Development", company name, company address, company tel#, company email.
Why do you care that MS wants your non personal info?
Hold on. CT sez: "So, if you want to write code under windows, you must use Passport. Or not use MSDN". That is blatant FUD. No one in the world is stopping you from using MSDN Online. In fact, most of the information ever used by developers is on that site absolutely, 100% free.
No one is stopping you from obtaining a subscription to MSDN. This gets MAILED RIGHT TO YOUR DOOR.
The ONLY thing the above is saying is "If you want to download some stuff that we've only made available on the web, you gotta get a Passport". This is like saying "If you want to use Hotmail, you gotta get a Passport".
Does this mean you have to have everything from your Mother's maiden name to your pet's favorite food in there? NO.
I'm an intern for MS, but I'm not trolling here. And since I'm an intern, I barely have an impact on my own group let alone MSDN.
You should never take life too seriously - You'll never get out of it alive.
--
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
GNU tools won't do you much good without the Win API docs, available through MSDN. Nor will you get much joy out of downloading new SDKs and discovering you can't use free tools to build software while using them. Oops.
Not necessarily technically better ... like: "Is this vendor large enough for us to sue if something goes wrong?"
This is a common point that's made - but who's ever sued Microsoft and won? Or at least lived to tell about it? Their license agreement pretty much absolves them of any liability, even if you're using their product for the purpose it's intended for. And if UCITA goes through, then you're really screwed.
This is, IMO, the biggest misconception of buyers of commercial software - that there'll be someone there to back it up, and someone to blame, if it doesn't work. There probably won't be - even if they take responsibility for it now, soon as the next version of their product ships, the old version is then totally your problem - unless you feel like paying again to get what you were supposed to already have.
_____
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
And what everyone's forgetting is that this is _at work_, as you yourself said. Why would you use any personal info for your work passport subscription? Do you use your home email address (as opposed to your work address) when you access MSDN right now? The Passport ID isn't tatooed on your forehead or on your retinas, there's nothing stopping you from using different accounts at home and at work, thus keeping your work and personal inforation neatly separate. Duh.
--
"Hot lesbian witches! It's fucking genius!"
Just imagine what that story will look like when the new "smart links" technology is released to the world. Combine that with the fact that I will need to use Passport to log on anywhere and pretty soon Microsoft will have me caught in their little .Net.
-Derek
we're 100% MS here, and getting more so all the time,
Hmmm, sounds like you were taught the Intel Pentium-style mathematics. Do you go crazy when people say f00f too? :-)
Actually, I'd be more worried about the fact that MS programmers (and programmers in general) are on caffeine. I think it explains a lot.
Spiders on Caffeine
Yes, I know it's only a C compiler, but you'd be surprised how coding in the Win32API instead of MFC can speed up and un-bloat your code.
Not to mention that development takes 10x the time compared to using a real object-oriented library like VCL or Qt instead of retard-oriented like MFC. Have you ever tried to maintain an application written in MFC or pure Win32-API? It's like having a PGP-encrypted "Hello World" and no key: you want to start over and use something human-friendly. In the computers of today, we don't care about a few clock cycles lost. We can afford to use things like C, C++ and Java instead of pure Assembler. The small performance hit is immediately regained when trying to fix bugs or adding functions, since the programmer can do it very fast and with ease.
War is one of the most horrible things a human can be exposed to. And one of the worlds largest industries.
Sombody at your workplace is (or should be) responsible for software licensing and such. Someone's name is already on the MSDN account. This person should create the passport account, using your company's address and phone number. This is the passport login you should use.
I'm no supporter of MSFT, but if you've already got a business relationship with them, and so they already have info on you. You don't have to give them your home address and tell them your salary and how many pets you have. Just use your business contact info and get over it.
Damn near every vendor I've ever interacted with has required some sort of login to access online downloads or documentation. This isn't MSFT-specific. Who cares if they're using Passport for MSDN authentication? You don't have to use this Passport account for anything but MSDN.
-Isaac
I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. For Entertainment Purposes Only.
Heh, that's funny since I just heard for the first time last night the version of Madonna's "Justify My Love" where she is reading from Revelations throughout the song.
What're you gonna do?
-l
Help cure AIDS, cancer, and more. Donate your unused computer time to worldcommunitygrid.org. Join Team Slashdot!
Didn't some security or usability expert tell you that forcing multiple hard-to-remember passphrases leads to people storing them off-head insecurely?
It's a compromise. What's riskier: your one passphrase being guessed or your passphrase storage being hacked.
__
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Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
Perhaps this is really a marketing ploy. When Passport becomes available to end users, M$ can say "10,000 people already use Passport!"
Transcript show: self sigs atRandom.
So all this time Microsoft has been giving us the finger? That would explain a lot.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Were they ever? I thought the problem was that getting stuff to work with MS stuff was so difficult that it required a lot of technical expertise.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
My original post was a joking reference to "the mark of the beast" or whatever that phrase is from the Book of Revelations (may not be exactly correct title). Yours, however, is just a little too close to real possibility for laughs.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
I give my work email as my msdn registered email, and believe me if my employer starts seeing SPAM from M$ because of this, you can bet OUR lawyers will be talking to their lawyers, and guess what M$ WILL NOT jeopordize enterprise class business with worthless spam. I am on every M$DN mailing list in existence and I get ZERO spam generated from them. Of course the actual email from M$ almost classifies as SPAM but every now and then there is a usefull bit amongst the dross.
On a side note M$ does have a hightened security option on EVERY PASSPORT site, (they all suck) but it will REMOVE the logon cookie if you specify 'shared or public' computer.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
only in certain specific and noted instances is it a crime to offer up a nom de plume. I regularly purchase using a pseudo. If you try and get around an age or geographical restrictions there is always a crime involved.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
I see. M$ moves with KID gloves around their BIG enterprise customers trust me I KNOW. We generate WAY too much money for them. We support 160,000 exchange email clients and nearly 300,000 copies of MS os's. We get EXCELLENT response from them. Now I will agree if you are not a big business M$ will be NON-responsive and you have little recourse. M$ likes bringing clients to our site to tour and show off our use of their stuff. They bend over backwards to keep us happy. Oh and BTW delusional is spelled slightly different and OUR lawyers have backed M$ into a corner on 2 seperate ocasions regarding licensing issues and we have WON both cases PRIOR to it ever going to court. If you think a company DOES NOT GIVE a RAT'S ass about email and LIABILITY then you have much to learn beyond how to spell.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Actually GNU tools for Win32 development are becoming increasingly popular, what with VC++ being $300. The Win32 version of MAME is now built with MinGW32, and when a project that big makes the jump a lot of others probably won't be far behind.
Well... they'll track your useage anyhow, and also know that your company exists. Moot point for MSDN anyway, but Passport links up with lots of other things. Who knows what else it will do in five years?
Microsoft aren't reknowned for letting invasive ideas languish, and caving in at any point is useless. You don't pacify a crocodile by tossing it steaks.
How aboute a website somewhere listing logins?
One still needs cookie control. On Linux, that's easy, redirect web traffic to a local proxy that strips cookies, both in headers and in URL. What about on work machines etc?
Microsoft want to take your freedom and replace it with multiple choice. In particular:
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Because those are free resources.
MSDN Subscriber downloads, are not. They are something that is a SUBSCRIPTION, that you pay for.
"Politicians are interested in people. Not that this is always a virtue. Fleas are interested in dogs." P.J. O'Rourke
Actually, Hotmail DOES have a spam filter, and it works pretty darn well. The only stuff that actually makes it to my hotmail inbox is stuff that I opted-in for. (wether intentionally or accidentally)
You do have to activate it though, as it's not on by default. But I'm sure someone as technically saavy as yourself already knew that.
This message brought to you by the Council of People Who Are Sick of Seeing More People.
Very simply.. bull.
I don't have to provide this information to access usenet.. the linux howto's or gcc! Why should I here?
Think of it as a defective product.
:)
:) )
It's got privacy problems
You don't have to get anywhere (we won't anyway.. just keep calling.. that's the annoying part
-This post is just for entertainment value, I am not encouraging a terrorist act.
How many of us can we get to call their tech support asking how to get a login id that "dosen't use that insercure passport site".
It wouldn't get us anywhere, but it would be funny and annoying to microsoft!
Didn't M$ and a couple of other big companies do
some research a while ago about the costs of privacy?
Wasn't the outcome there "privacy is just too expensive, give it up"?
The steps M$ is taking do add up to the direction,
they're moving in, doesn't it?
It is kinda funny to think about this that Bill Gates/Microsoft could be part of the Mark of the Beast. Even the casual reader of Revelation 13 will notice that there is already some supernatural stuff going on before anyone receives the Mark. The author of the last link there you referenced takes the whole thing way out of context, and obviously hasn't done much study of anything, let alone the Bible.
First of all, the beast will already be in existance. He will already have suffered the fatal wound yet recovered. Many of mankind are already worshiping the beast. The beast speaks, blasphemies God, etc. Taking the mark is something not just like a computer chip, but like subscribing to a new religion. This will be very clear to everyone receiving it that it isn't just going to allow them to buy or sell, but it will also mark them as a follower of the beast.
Microsoft may be immoral, but so far I haven't seen anything that they've done collectively to put themselves ahead of God or to start a new religion or kill people who don't worship them. Until that happens, only the naieve will reject technology that makes them more productive members of society based simply on the fear of the Mark.
Of course I'm not saying that there aren't other reasons to reject this technology -- other comments have covered this well -- I'm just stating that it shouldn't be rejected based only on fear of the Mark.
Seriously, this is just the beginning of the fall of the giant. We all know its going to happen.... and microsoft is planning on selling "authentication services" anyway. All they are out to do is to get money, why do you think we see a "new" version of windows every few years. Hell..... I was reading MCP magazine, they said XP will be the merging of the two 32 bit code bases, I told this to my boss, and then reminded him that they said the same for win2k.... then he said... they will be saying the same again in 2004 or 2005.
This is getting past monopoly... they are branching out..... trying to control everything.... kinda like a paracite.
Yeah I did too. But after going through alot of registations on the internet, I got used to it.
I never did, I just just didn't have anything to do with those companies/sites that tried to force me to do such things, and it never hurt me a bit. Oh, but you do have to quit programming for windows to do that, that's a choice each programmer has to make for themselves.
So there are your options: descend to Microsoft's level by taking part in the lie, or quit and do something else. Fortunately, that something else is quite a lot of fun, never mind the morally correct part. ;-)
--
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
My Microsoft Passport Profile:
First Name: Gail
Last Name: Wynand
Country/Region: United States
State: Kansas
Zip Code: 66044
Time Zone: Central Time
Gender: Male
Birthday: January 1 1978
Occupation: Computer related (Internet)
Does anyone want to guess how much of this is true?
And now does anyone want to tell me WTF the big deal is about? Who cares if they require a Passport Profile in order to download stuff? There's nobody standing over your shoulder when you fill in the profile.
> Mind you with a postal code they can narrow
> down to exactly what block you live on
HUH? My Zip covers many square miles, just don't give them a +4 even if they ask for one (not everyone has one).
that's funny, because microsoft owns a large portion of radio shack.
link
microsoft already has your info
Why read the article when I can just make up a snap judgement?
I don't like the thought of that any more than you do, but the truth is out that MicroSoft wants to be in control of authentication services -starting with their own.
Personally, I would just get either a group account that everyone can use, or just have someone else there grab the downloads for you.
BTW if you are going to lie, do it right. Get a few Passports. Mix 'em up a little change race, gender, age, and name and keep them for a rainy day when they are going to get harder to get.
Blogging because I can...
Caution: contents may be quarrelsome and meticulous!
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
You don't need any PassPort account to logon to Windows XP, valid or otherwise. Where the Hell did you get that from?
Cheers,
And if you want to learn more about what passport is before you get one - you have to go to a web site that requires a pssport.
You do??? Oh wait, I was confusing you with someone who actually has a clue. For anyone else wanting not only to learn about Passport, but actually download the SDK, they can just go to msdn.microsoft.com, click the big "Downloads" link at the top of the page, select the "Software Development Kits" from the menu, and choose "Microsoft Passport SDK v1.4.2." No login needed to either view the summary information or download the SDK itself.
And you guys are always telling us how Microsoft is the one spreading lies? Comical.
Cheers,
I remember when they were pushing IE 3 really hard just like this. Any MS programs that came out at the time forced you to install IE 3 for them to work whether they required it or not, and whether they had anything to do with the internet or not. They put a check on a dll that came with IE 3, and if you didn't have it, it wouldn't install.
He said, "You'll be able to tell your grandchildren that you helped assemble the first NT supercomputer," and I cringed.
ok. If they force you to. Otherwise I'd prefer to use 2001 (i.e., 02001) as my zip. The problem is, you may need to remember all this garbage to recover from a disk crash. The truth is easier to remember, but it is quite excessively intrusive for them to ask it of you.
Caution: Now approaching the (technological) singularity.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
You also forgot to calculate in the various taxes. It ends up being considerably more than you end up with in a week.
Caution: Now approaching the (technological) singularity.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Well, what what about the situation where the only way a US customer can register Office 2001 (Mac) is via the web...and, of course, you have to have a Passport to do so. What value-added anything does one ever get from Microsoft registration?
No thanks.....
BTW, how can you sign off the Passport, assuming that you signed up for it?
I went through the fine print on the bottom of MSN page, but the only thing I could find was about termination on Microsoft's behalf, like if you were naughty or if you didn't use it often enough.
Well, I guess if I want to unsubscribe I'll just have to start spamming people with some farm pr0n using my Hotmail account...
Actually, the tattoo doesn't go on your forehead. It's just some little blue numbers tattoed on your wrist. The numbers are used to ID you upon entry into the showers, the ovens, the surgery, etc.
--
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Use this info:
Name : C. Montgomery Burns
Address: 666 Mammon Lane, Springfield, USA
Phone: KL5-3226
Company: Springfield Nuclear Power Plant
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--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Why would they need more info from Passport? How simple do you think it is for them to keep a database mapping paid subscriptions to passport IDs on their own servers (not Passport's)? Why must this information come from Passport, when it's clearly site-specific? Come on, man, think these things through!
And also which Passport has no reason to ever see. And why's that? Because Passport is just an authentication mechanism. It tells the MSDN site (or any site that uses Passport, for that matter) who you are. It's then up to MSDN to determine whether or not you're somebody who should get their stuff. In short, people aren't thinking, and going crazy about stuff that's not even happening!
Yes, it's true Passport can hold your payment information for you. However, that's an optional service, and it's highly unlikely it's being forced in this scenario (or any scenario, as it's good to allow for multiple means of payment -- in otherwords, I'm sure that if you wished to use Passport to give MSDN your payment info, you could, but you don't have to do so).
And for the email address...why not use a Hotmail (tm) account?
BTW, does anyone else remember getting a sinking feeling back when MS acquired Hotmail?
i wouldn't touch passport with a 10 ft pole. do you really trust MS with your information?
I know they were supposed to have changed the license, but I would read it before agreeing. there is no reason to believe they wouldn't change it back. I would also make a copy of the license you agreed to and send it to your lawyer.
they have shown it the past that they were not to be trusted. Cover your ass.
photosMy Photostream
And give your "real name" as Heywood Jablomi, and make up some random ZIP code (20036 is in the Washington, DC area, 98052 is in the Redmond area, pick whichever one you're not - or claim that you're from Malta or something). Just remember what Passport name you created, that's all.
--
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Do I look like I speak for my employer?
That's incorrect. Microsoft "encourages" OEMs to offer restore disks instead of a full copy of the OS.
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Do I look like I speak for my employer?
Well, if I think about this..
To get an MSDN subscription, you *have* to tell microsoft all this stuff about you anyway, so they already know it, right? You can't just get MSDN anonymously.
And they want you to authenticate with them when you sign in, right?
What's wrong with doing so with passport? You don't *have* to use it for anything else if you don't want to.
I checked; it says on my credit card that the credit card is the property of the issuer. That means it doesn't belong to me.
The accompanying contract I received when I was sent the card said that my only responsibility was to report to them if the CARD was stolen, or any fraudulent charges, and they would be refunded.
I have done so in the past with no problems.
So really, I don't *care* if some site is compromised and they steal the banks credit card... all I am inconvenienced by is one phone call to tell them my card has been compromised, and to send me a new one. IT's the banks' problem, not mine.
People should quit spreading the myth that credit card info is somehow your personal asset... it's not. This is not on the same level as somsone stealing your cash.
And you've *already* given the MS people your info, how else did you get an MSDN subscription in the first place?
They can technically hold me liable for $50 of any charges incurred in between the time my card is physically stolen, and when I tell them about it. And most, as you say, don't even bother anyway.
You do have one point; if you rely on your credit card for your date at the restaurant, this can be an inconvenience. That's one reason for carrying two cards I guess.
Also, if you find your credit company is not extremely easy to deal with on the phone, low hold times, polite and prompt answers to your questions, then cancel it and get a new one. YOU are their customer, and they know it.
Also.. why do I have to give passport my credit card number? I don't.
It's a lot when you're a teenager that's bored in high school that's trying to program a cool new game. I remember mowing lawns to get the $150 (or whatever) to buy Borland C++ 3.1 (I still use it).
Petreley, in his article that was linked from here on slashdot a few days ago had a point: if you can provide a single sign on service, it's pretty convenient. Heck, that's part of the reason why kerberos was ever invented (part of it is for better security, sure, but the convenience provided is pretty good). And doesn't seem like a better way for the net to evolve in? Especially if we ever hope to implement micro-payments. We can't just have each site that wants to sell you a 10 cents news article ask you to register for an account and then take your payment info (the probability of having your payment data stolen becomes so high too).
All this to say: passport provides a service which I think is going to become impoortant in the future. However, it seems that nobody likes the way it's being done. And hey, it's MS. So why can't the open source world provide an alternative, good solution?
I'm guessing that a company would probably have to be set up for that. But the mistakes to avoid are (at least):
- availability on all platforms (for the server side). Sure, we like stuff that works on linux and the BSDs, but there are windows servers out there, so make something available to all. (You could compete with MS on their own turf, and show them that you can do it better)
- have total transparency in your operations. I hate the word 'transparency', but I guess I finally understand it. In other words, don't hide anything from your users or clients, and they might just all come to you, seeing that you don't do anything bad.
- BE SECURE I'm sure we can't emphasize all that enough, but there needs to be the most secure installation, if you're going to store so much data. People are concerned about such things, so try to show them that you have the stictest security standards. And if any user ever choses not to store their credit card data with you, but just to have login/pw, then you should accept that.
Would it be all that hard to do something like that? Of course, the most important thing after setting up your company and developping all the software, would be to get the word out about it, and do some heavy marketing and advertising. And in these times, that might be harder than said.
So, can we dream of something like that?
Maan
I use non-Microsoft tools to do Windows development. But this is MSDN. It's the documentation. How do you get around that? Even though the writer only mentioned it's for the subscriber downloads, you know it's coming for the regular library too. That's what's driving me crazy. I hate to lie. I also hate to give my personal information to someone that doesn't need it. What choice do they leave? I have to either comprimise my ethics or compromise my personal information. Using Mingw and Borland still don't get me the correct API docs.
Nothing really insightful here, but I personally hate to lie. I think one of the problems with what we've become is that too many are willing to lie at the drop of a hat. But now MS narrows my choices to two I don't like: register with my real information, or lie.
I despise click-throughs that give me the choice to "register now" or "register later". I have to lie because there is no "don't register" choice. I have to agree to license agreements where part is written in a language I don't speak. When I click "Agree", it's another lie. How can I agree to what I don't understand. Some writer wrote an excellent column on that, but I don't remember who.
I'm a Windows programmer for a living and I use MSDN. But I will not create a real Passport account. Again, I will lie, as much as I hate it. The only choices they give are unpalatable. Even worse than their monopoloy, even worse than their licenses, they make you comply, lie, or do without. When they're the only source of Win32 documentation, what's the choice going to be? I hate it.
As of Windows 2000 (IIRC) the "Internet Connection Wizard" will allow you to sign up for a Hotmail account (which signs you up on Passport), and this option is checked by default. I'd be willing to bet that this won't go away in XP...
Of course, it's not required... yet.
I like that. I think it's pretty obvious that if we want to maintain our privacy we're going to need things like anonymous email, anonymous digital ca$h, pgp/gpg and probably other tools. I'm _surprised_ no one has yet come up with the concept of an anonymous credit card, 'twould be a convenient way to buy stuff. Is it possible there's 'no market demand' for such a service?
I can't think of a better source of software for such products than the FSF. Neither emperor (neither Gates nor McNealy) seems the slightest bit interested in the privacy of his subjects, so there shouldn't be too much of a struggle over who's going to 'innovate' this stuff.
Exceeding the recommended torque is not recommended.
Ok, so you need to sign up and give out a little personal information in order for Microsoft to give you software for free.
Sun and IBM do the exact same thing. What's the big deal? Why shouldn't Microsoft be able to use their service-wide authentication system to like, authenticate people?
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
you develop under windows, you must buy MSs tools, and you sure can't use those tools without their docs.
All of the docs are up on the web , and you don't need to pay to access it either, MSDN is mostly 'extras' that you don't really need, but that do come in handy (new versions of OSs, new API toolkits, SDKs, etc)
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Hey, give them a hotmail email address
If you have a hotmail account, you already have a passport account.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
And you are bound to get burned.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
You can gain a large amount of information by correlating many individually useless pieces of information. Even if my RedHat and Slashdot accounts share the same information, I would much prefer that they do not share the same identity.
Use your boss's name and information. Hmmm, wonder what information flow the new email address diverts.
First my deepest sympathy. The tradegy is that Microsoft has got you and you will be punished for even considering alternatives. ...
If you want to control a populace, the first thing is to establish checkpoints and record their comings and goings. There are of course perfectly innocent reasons for setting them up, but wait and
He who laughs last laughs best.
First the browser, then the desktop.
It's not when the best on Linux beats Microsoft, it's when the worst on Linux beats Microsoft. Yep, gotta love the GPL and cross-fertilization.
No, we're talking about Microsoft, not Lateinos and Romiith.
:)
(ah, who am I kidding... none of you are going to know what I'm talking about. sigh).
Just to get you a little less spooked:
'16. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond to receive a mark in their right hand or in their foreheads.
17. And that no man might buy or sell save that he had the mark or the name of the beast or the number of his name.
18. Here is wisdom. Let he that hath understanding count the number of the beast; for it is the number of a man, and his number is six hundred, three score and six.'
So don't get worried until you need to get that new identity barcode tattooed to your forehead
-- Help Digitise the Public Domain at DP.
The point is NOT a single sign-on. The point, my friend, is that the information gleaned from whatever you give passport is then available to any other passport sites out there.
Me: "I'd like some health insurance. Cheapest you've got, I'm a college student."
Insurance company: "sure thing, let me get some personal information from you and quote you a rate... College? ok.. Medical history? no problems you say? Grand."
Insurance Company (Internal Monologue): "Oh, this guy accesses MSDN, he must be a programmer lying about what he does, or not telling the whole truth. Oh, and look at that, he was on WebMD looking up information about cancer, it probably runs in his family... lets quote him the sickly dot-commer rate..."
Me: "$650 a month?!!! my rent isn't that high! Guess I'll just have to be one of the 45 million uninsured americans out there."
Insurance Company after I leave: "Oh, he's just playing hard to get, he'll be back."
A few weeks later:
Insurance Company: "What ever happened to that sickly dot-commer from awhile back? Oh, he got pneumonia and couldn't get treated because he didn't have insurance and died? How terrible... guess that's what you get for playing hard to get."
So how long before Microsoft decides to change the terms of the agreement? If I'm not mistaken, they have the right to do this at any time without notice to the user, granted in the license.
Ok folks,
This is for the MSDN Universal Subscription DOWNLOAD site. For those of you who are NOT in the Microsoft developer world, the MSDN Universal subscription site allows you to download EVERY non game product Microsoft sell, with NO fee beyond your subscription
The problem was/is the site is a simple ID/Password setup. What's to prevent you from using it at home/giving it to a friend, etc? Not much
When you setup passport, your ONLY going to get in with that Passport PC (or maybe at home) - You sure as heck aren't going to give the info out on the net
It's a pure "If you want it, BUY it" move. The MSDN Univeral Subscription is a GREAT buy (at least compared to "Other" Microsoft prices), so they don't want it shared. That $2000 subscription is cheap compared to the individual prices. Think what a copy of W2K Enterprise, SQL2K Enterprise, and a full copy of Visual Studio cost "retail" and then look at that 2K Price again
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
Most of the comments that have been modded up have been of the "relax, it's no big deal" variety. This is completely wrong. The issue isn't that this one guy is forced to use Passport. It's a sign of things to come -- sneaking this in under the radar of unsuspecting citizens. I think it's safe to assume Microsoft is going to end up requiring everyone to use Passport in order to use services like Hotmail.
By doing this, they are going to artificially grow their user base by leveraging the web monopoly, which was leveraged from their browser monopoly, which was leveraged by their OS monopoly. This is illegal, because it prevents new entries into the market. It reduces choice and increases the amount of control that a single corporate entity has over the population.
Technology is so complicated that the general populous has no idea what they're doing. Things like this don't get nearly as much attention as political activity but the reprocussions will eventually have just as much impact on our lives. Once the user base gets large enough, they are going to claim the largest membership numbers for this type of service, and will convince other corporations that they have to get on board to survive. It's a perpetual cycle until someone slaps their ass down.
All of this is concerning because it's obvious that Microsoft has no self-control in terms of how far they will go to establish things like HailStorm and Passport. They don't want to bother with whether consumers actually want these services. It's easier to just sign a bunch of deals and use various other corporations to do the enforcement. Some people claim that Passport is a natural way to log into various Microsoft services, and therefore shouldn't be questioned. Trojan horse, folks! Microsoft wants other sites to adopt Passport . Do you think they're give a damn when an ActiveX control is required to log in?
The most important issue here is one of scale. All of this behavior wouldn't be nearly as big of a deal if Microsoft wasn't already a hulking juggernaut. Implementing a prioprietary authentication service isn't dangerous if your company isn't that big. It's up to the market to decide if it's worthy to be adopted. But when you're as big as Microsoft you can force standards on people whether they want them or not.
- Scott
--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
Look, if you are working for Microsoft directly or indirectly, don't you have to expect to follow the conditions they lay down? I have done contract technical editing for Microsoft Press, and you can be certain that they expected me to be using Word, and when I invoiced them, I had to use IE to access the invoicing site. I am no fan of the company's products and I detest it's business practices, but I don't see the point of taking it personally. I used their software when I had to, and I went on using Linux in my free time.
Basically, there seems to be a difference between people who are dealing directly with MS as developers (or whatever) and people who are normal users. You've given up some of your freedom when you decide to program for the Windows API. That doesn't make you the victim of illegitimate market manipulation -- it's called making a living.
*** "Freiheit ist immer die Freiheit des Andersdenkenden". -- Rosa Luxemburg ***
Funny, but maybe ya should have picked an open source developer without a wife and kids. Plus, I'm sure Linus would know better than to mess around with Tove being a karate champion.
>Life is just so much easier now that I've got The Mark.
And remember, only the first few hundred early adopters will have any chance at getting the "special" UID tattooed on their forehead, so sign up now!
Drinking will help us plan!
I just hate the fact I have to use THEIR download program and can't use my own download manager (which is a hell of a lot better).
Fear: When you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and know what it means
If you are gonna bitch at Microsoft for spreading FUD then you are a hypocrite if you don't bitch at Taco for spreading FUD.
Fear: When you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and know what it means
Taco, in your anti-MS frenzy could you at least get some of the facts straight?
i) You don't need Passport to get MSDN, or develop for Windows. MSDN subscriptions are delivered to your door (or office) and you use them from there. There is no reason to access the downloads unless you NEED the latest and greatest betas right now.
ii) If you've signed up for MSDN, and signed up online for the downloads then you've already given Microsoft all the information you need to create a passport account anyhow - where's the issue here?
iii) You can create separate passport accounts for home and work. Only give work info (which is all you should do with an MSDN subscription anyhow) to Passport for the downloads.
Now I know that these three things probably got lost in the rabid frothing and knee jerking, but at least you should consider them sometimes, please?
Microsoft does bad things at times, but just because Microsoft does something doesn't AUTOMATICALLY make it bad. You've been given a brain - use it.
Fear: When you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and know what it means
I dunno, the King James Version has some of the best poetry in the English Language, proof that not everything written by committee is bad. Comparing windows to it is a tad insulting.
Best Slashdot Co
But does this count as prior art?
The way Windows is put together, you'd swear it was the same editorial committee...
Xix.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
MS will remember to renew the passport.com domain next time it's up for renewal.........
Dave
IT IS A VIOLATION OF LAW for people who reside in the US state of Maryland to utilize Microsoft's Passport service. Passport's service contract changes the legal juristiction for resolving disputes between Passport users and Microsoft to Washington State contrary to Maryland's (new) UCITA rules that affirm Maryland's athority for people living in Maryland. Microsoft CANNOT change the legal venue with EULA contracts and is VIOLATING MARYLAND LAW with Passport's terms of service contract .
oh....my!
Come on! Billy Gates aint that evil.
How we know is more important than what we know.
I don't know what kind of codes you are compiling, however in my experience VC++ produces much faster code than GCC. You can clearly see this if you look at the assembly that GCC produces from a tight loop. It is garbage. GCC doesn't know how to deal with a machine that is highly register-constrained such as x86. Now if you want the best performance, you use the Intel compiler, which is far better than either GCC or VC++. The Intel compiler is also now available on Linux.
You, sir, are either an AOLuser or a Micros~1 intern being paid to FUD here, and I claim my 50 quatloos bounty.
Either that, or I'm too old for this modern world of .NET. When I was growing up, I distinctly remember everyone I've ever respected in the field of computer security - from my high school "computer programming" teacher who let me h4x0r the school assignments assembly, to the BOFH at university who let me run "crack" distributed-style on the school's shiny new Sun workstations because I was nice enough to ask him first, to my cow orkers, all saying "Never use the same password for more than one system, because if one system is compromised, the other ones will be too".
I have had a passport account for a while now so i didnt really remember what info they asked. So I just filled one out. What personal info are you giving up? They asked for my name, state & zip code. I answered with BS and it accepted it all. There are a lot of people screaming that they would wouldnt trust MS with thier personal info...ya, they will *never* get my zip code! You give up more personal info buying something at radio shack.
<br><br>
Remember it, write it down, take a picture, I dont give a fsck!
I would love to test it for you! I charge a modest $50/hour for testing.
Remember it, write it down, take a picture, I dont give a fsck!
This technique works great for me.
Also, you don't need MS's development tools to do Windows development.
You can use the (free) Cygwin/MinGW32 or Borland C/C++ compilers if you like.
You can use any of a plethora of non-MS languages, like Java, Perl, Python, Delphi and lots of others.
QT, GTK, wxWindows are all good, cross-platform toolkits for Windows, your comment about needing Windows development tools to develop on Windows is plain wrong.
I'm not denying that MS tools are the most widely used and convenient tools to use for M$ development in an M$-only environment, but to say you have no alternative is just plain wrong.
What youre complaining about is the fact that your employer requires you to use M$ tools.
So get your employer to get a single Passport and then all developers at your company use it. When you perform work for your company, you represent that company, not yourself personally.
M$ is free to use any authentication scheme it likes with it's web services.
Its not news that M$ is a giant corporate entity that abuses its monopoly power to screw the consumer and lock them in so it can keep screwing them, but you have, and always have had the choice not to use their products.
I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
My apologies to Bruce Wilis, but who really cares? Much of the major commercial software (trial versions, demos, etc.) that you download off the 'net requires that you to agree to some draconian policies that most of us generally don't even bother to read. Why is this any different?
Oh, they require personal information?
Gee, how dastardly. When I apply for a library card at the big bad local library monopoly, they require my name, telephone number, address, and even my e-mail address, if I have one. I feel SOOO victimized.
I know, MS probably chant Satanic rituals over your personal info, so that twitch and the melanoma you've developed are due to them, but, other than that, what difference does it make? Are all Slashdot users really that fucking paranoid?
I blame the X-Files - which made paranoia respectable, after the National Enquirer had tried and failed to do the same thing for decades.
Did you know that MS has recently started selling their own line of black helicopters?
Neopets - the best free game on the Int
God... if you don't want it to become the standard, MAKE SOMETHING BETTER.
Stop complaining like a 4 year old, and do something about it.
I like passport. Saves me a lot of time on a lot of sites, and allows those sites to deliver content I like. If you make something better, I will use that.
Gimme a break.
Or maybe they'll link to helpful sources of information on 'medication' that causes paranoid delusions, eh Taco ? *cough*cough*
In fact, if you'll check this message, you'll see that Microsoft already changed the link in this message in your browser....
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
Maybe I'm missing something, and I'll get flamed to hell about this. Why is this a shocking or bad thing?
Before, in order to get special developer downloads, you needed an account with some other Microsoft Authentication service, right?
With this announcement, you need an account with some new Microsoft Authentication service.
Why is a Passport account so much more horrible then the old-style MS Authentication service?
MSDN is a division of Microsoft. It's pretty expected that a large company like MS would want to use a centralized authentication service. It's not like MS is using some strongarm tactics to muscle some non-MS business to use the Passport service (At least, not in the MSDN example).
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
Yeah, it's funny :)
Of course, let's not look at the fact that, to have an Hotmail account, you've already created a Passport ID. Yeah, never let facts go in the way of some sane old FUD.
if anyone forces me to give out information for stuff when they don't need it then i give out fake information (then i don't have to worry about privacy).
this guy should do the same. (actually, a better idea would be to get another job! I mean, come on... Microsoft???)
Nevrar
I only ever use my work address and telephone number for online subscriptions like Intel, MSDN, etc.
...
I do sympathise with those who can't hide behind a corporate environment and secretary
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Our software works perfectly anyway, so there is no need for you, the stupid user, to modify it.
We are smart. We will do everything for you. We will tell you what choices you need to have and we will decide what options to give you. You are stupid. You have no idea what you need or what you should have, and you should leave it up to us to tell you how and in what way you should use a computer.
But don't feel bad about your stupidity, for you are not alone. We at Microsoft are well aware that our nation's entire judicial system is just as stupid as you are. That's why we, the Smart(tm) people of Microsoft, in spite of an ongoing antitrust trial, have released Windows and Office XP, which has ten times the antitrust issues of our previous products.
We are Microsoft are the only smart people. We will win our antitrust suits because we are smarter than everyone else.
Don't waste your stupid time on other operating systems. You are too stupid to understand them, and the people who developed those stupid operating systems are too stupid to provide a product that can ever be anything clsoe to ours.
You are stupid. You should really, really leave this technical stuff up to us. Just do what we tell you to do, and buy our stuff when we tell you to buy it. And don't complain about a lack of options, either: You are stupid. Too many options would confuse you.
I know /. has been down due to a router problem recently, so I guess I missed the article where it was decided that "MS Developer" and "technically savvy" are no longer mutually exclusive terms ;-)
I couple of years ago I needed to register some Microsoft software online. It asked for the usual name, company, address, and phone number. I entered my company's information - except it wouldn't let me continue unless I also entered my residentual address and phone number, too. I entered "none of your fscking business" and othersimilar phrases in all the places I did not wish to provide data. I had no feelings of guilt since I was doing this strictly for work and my personal life did not enter the picture. I rather wish they had complained so I could have given them more detailed instructions on what they could do with their information demands (some of my suggestions would probably be fatal!).
-- Will program for bandwidth
A little advice for ya:
Count to 10 before posting and use that Preview button. It's great!
However, when it does come to Microsoft's monopolistic practices (or customs, whatever), the only thing we have to declare is that Linux's father can beat up Microsoft's father!!! (or linux will kick their sorry ass!)
A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. -- William James
ii) If you've signed up for MSDN, and signed up online for the downloads then you've already given Microsoft all the information you need to create a passport account anyhow - where's the issue here?
...
/. post reply thing.
Microsoft does bad things at times,...
How hard would it have been to write a quick SQL Server (assuming they're using it) DTS job to convert your current MSDN ID to a Passport ID? I can tell you that it would have taken less time than it did to write the e-mail they sent out announcing the change. Probably even less time than it took me to write this stupid
A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. -- William James
WAKE UP, open-source community. The battle is not for the desktop; it is not for the server; it is not for the operating system; it is not for the development environment; it is not about the GNU General Public License (GPL) vs. Microsoft's business model. The battle is primarily about who will control user-authentication services.
1) It is their primary authentication mechanism
2) It is the required authentication for all of .Net. So, if they get even more Passports created, they can spew out some more BS marketing hype about how many Passport users there are and how it's not an intrusion to require it for .Net!
T
---- It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told.
Fileplanets new method of registering for downloads SUCKS. I refuse to download anything from there now that they have implented it. It's supposed to make it easier for you to download stuff (my guess is by making less people use the service) but the few times I used it, when they first implemented it, it would take me 2 - 3 times longer to get stuff - even with less people on the server.
LRJ
--Mike--
no shit. RedHat Network has the same thing.
Someone you trust is one of us.
... I blame the huge numbers of people who just continue and continue to be Microsoft's bitch and then whine about it afterward. If you build your business and/or career around Microsoft, if you rely on them at all for anything, then be prepared to shut up, bend over, and take it like a man from time to time. That is the price of admission to their market, and everybody knows it. Microsoft's business model is not a secret. There is a line of people from Washington state to Washington, D.C. with sore assholes, surprised looks on their faces, and a sob story to tell about being former partners of Microsoft, and I don't pity them one bit.
Microsoft did the bully work to clear vast tracts of Cyberspace of troublesome natives and trees, and if you want to build there, you can't reasonably complain when Microsoft puts Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer, etc. on the currency. Either get your Passport account or stop sharecropping with Microsoft. There isn't a single thing that you can do with a Microsoft computer that you can't do better with a competing product, whether it's a Sun server, an Apple desktop, or Linux or BSD on just about any hardware. All Microsoft can offer you is their big bland market. If you want that, then fine, but don't kid yourself that you get to keep your soul.
The insurance companies (as well as the credit card companies already maintain a crazy amount of info on everyone. This is just the unreversable step twords making it easier to access any information at anytime.
Whoa. A lot of people think the same thing!t ;this</a> quote the best, "One could say that MICROSOFT products are for people
e ast.html">this</a> page is over the top but talks
<P>
Try <a href= "http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&a mp;q=Revelations+13%3A17+buy+Microsoft">searchi ng</a> on
Google for 13:17 and Microsoft!
<P>
I like <a href="http://www.river.org/~buttrfly/vp54.html"&g
who cannot make moral decisions."
<P>
And <a href="http://hometown.aol.com/discipledave/book/B
about how an implanted chip will be sold to the
masses by describing how much freedom they will have
to make purchases anywhere with unlimited credit.. If an MS Passport chip comes out call me and I'll scream.
If you're writing applications, 3rd party tools likely work great. If you're doing Windows driver development you've got to use Visual C++. I heard of people trying to use non MS compilers for drives a while ago, but don't think they were very successful. Maybe things have changed since then. I just figured the price of Visual C++ was worth not having to deal with trying to get it to work with something else. Developing drivers is screwey enough without adding using different tools than everyone else is using. Compilers have bugs, and if you're driver is really acting screwy, you'd like ask other people if they are having the same kinds of problems. To do that it helps if you are using the same tools.
I just want to clarify that you don't need to log into the Subsrciber site, just the Subscriber Downloads site. I just verified this by looking around the MSDN site on a computer I just loaded yesterday. That way I was sure there weren't any cookies floating around from my previous visits allowing me to reach places other couldn't. I could look up info in the documentation, and even look at what software is in the latest MSDN shipment. What I can't do is download software from the subscriber downloads. The subscriber downloads is where I can go if I want to download an entire copy of Windows 2000 Professional. If you're a member of MSDN, they send you the stuff that's on the subscriber downloads on a CD or DVD. The subscriber downloads is a convience in case you need it before you get the CD, or you lose that CD among the hundreds they've sent you. I have only very rarely used the subscriber downloads myself.
As another note. You used to have to log into the MSDN site and fill out a little questionaire just to access the documentation. In this respect Microsoft has gotten better at respecting thier customer's privacy.
THIS IS NOT THE MSDN DOCUMENTATION! IT'S THE MSDN DOWNLOADS! Sorry to shout, but I get irritated with all the FUD that gets spread on Slashdot about issues like this. I realize it's unintentional, I sincerely doubt that Taco has a MSDN subscription, so he doesn't know that the Downloads page is a seperat thing. The Downloads page is where you can get the latest updates and patches to MS products, before you get the CD in the mail. MSDN sends out quarterly CDs with all the updted documentation, and any new software that you receive under the MSDN level you signed up for (and are paying for). You also get interm shipments, often on a monthly basis, of software that MS ships between quarterly releases.
As for developing with Non-MS tools, I'm sure it works great for applications, but if you're developing device drivers, you pretty much have to use Visual C++. I've heard of people trying to use other compilers, but I haven't heard anyone say they've had a lot of success.
I picked an identity rare enough (orangesquid) that if "orangesquid" is taken, "theorangesquid" most like isnt.... or "therealorangesquid" et cetera... although i usually find that if "orangesquid" is taken, its because i had registered on the site last year! :)
--TheOrangeSquid Is it any wonder things seem so awry? We swim in a sea of confusion and don't have to think to survive
os:/$ telnet XXXXXX
/]# echo "Using root passes as usernames is a *bad* idea :)"|mail root -s importante
Trying XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX...
Connected to XXXXXX.
Escape character is '^]'.
IRIX (XXXXXX)
login: root
Password:[joto]
IRIX Release 6.2 IP22
Copyright 1987-1996 Silicon Graphics, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Last login: Tue Jun 19 18:40:38 EDT 2001 by XXXX@XXXXXX
[root@XXXXXXX
--TheOrangeSquid Is it any wonder things seem so awry? We swim in a sea of confusion and don't have to think to survive
You may be able to fool mom and pop that your shitty password service is useful, but for the rest of us, Microsoft, you can go kick yourself swiftly in the ass a few times.
MSDN is a necessary repository for developer information. All the latest SDK patches are there and ALL the necessary docs for doing just about EVERYTHING under Windows can basically only be found there.
I have such a low patience for vendors when they try to put the wet willy on me.
So, let me explain it to you:
I don't need Passport
I don't want Passport
grrrrr... I can count a LOT of developers I know who used to be gungho on MS who are seriously pissed at all these lame innitiatives.
Is that clear enough MS?
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
Aparently you're required to connect to their servers everytime you want to view a webpage.
That's soooo wrong.
Things I've learnt from taco today:
1) Microsoft is evil.
2) Microsoft Passport is NOT some sort of unified authentication service. It aparently isn't like the orignal authentication services Microsoft used to use on their websites. It's just pure evil and the work of the devil.
3) You can't develop under windows unless you subscripe to passport:
4) Microsoft is evil.
5) Microsoft is evil.
Come on Taco, take off that second hand evangelical suit you're always wearing. It's got ketchup (and god knows what else) stains on it.
How is Passport different from the original authentication scheme they used for online MSDN subscriber downloads (except that it's the same system used for hotmail, windowsbeta, messenger etc).
In order for me to do lots of things on sun's java website, I had to send my details to them. Hang on, it's not called "Sun Passport". It must be ok.
Perhaps I'm missing something here, but they are requiring Passport for you to access their subscriber service. This means that they already have your name, address, credit card number, e-mail address, and probably at least a work phone number for you anyway. And since they can no doubt also get to your credit history, based on the above information, they probably know a lot more than that about you - like your marital status, your date of birth, your Social Security number, how much you owe on your credit cards, who you bank with, etc. What exactly is it that you are afraid of giving away by signing up for Passport after this?
When it comes to microsoft customs, the only the we have to declare is that linux will kick their sorry ass.
If MS has a web site that requires user auth, and they have a service that has user auth support, it would be senile NOT to use it.
All you NEED is a user/pass. The other info doesn't fucking matter.
Oh my GOD! You mean I have to give MS my personal username and password! They shouldn't be allowed to have that, they'll use it for evil purposes!
I hate the company as much as anyone, but let's not lose perspective here. Give me a fucking break.
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
What's happening is that "special access" is being grated to those people who sign up for passport. On the surface, this is entirely harmless, even a mutually beneficial idea. This is not a "anti-microsoft" rant, but an issue of forced privacy violation. You could choose to not sign up, and choose to miss out on developer info, so in that sense it is voluntary. But don't bet your boss is going to take it so lightly when you explain to him why you weren't able to access MSDN online. The information age has brought with it many creative ways of collecting and extorting personal and private information from private citizens for the benefit of the corporate world.
They'll need more info than that to ensure that "people who did not pay cannot get access" see point "two" below...
two: They sell access to the MSDN downloads discussed. Somehow, access to these downloads must be authenticated so that people who did not pay cannot get access. Passport does authentication as is required here. Using their own system for authentication is entirely reasonable, makes sense, is easy for all involved.
The system being used violates the privacy of those who use it. If an individual who uses Passport for authentication elsewhere now uses it for authentication to MSDN online, Passport can develop a profile, similar to one that doubleclick's network is able to comprise through banners on multiple websites.
Some people pointing this out _are_ MS employees, some are simply more intelligent and more rational than the majority of the idiots posting to this story. Taco started the rot: but no-one actually expected reasoned discussion from him, his command of the language can easily be demonstrated to be patchy at best. What's your excuse?English is my third language. In spite of this, my mediocre mastery of the language has not caused me to engage in personal attacks on anyone, nor generalized character assasinations.
FACT : They own the information.
FACT : They can choose whether or not to share it with you.
FACT : If they choose to place conditions on any sharing which may take place, you can either accept the conditions of p*** off.
If microsoft decided that only people who sent in a photo of themselves covered in lowfat mayo were allowed access to the MSDN site, that's totally within their rights. Sure, I wouldn't want to be working in their mailroom, but it's totally their right.
---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"
Gee, not only does the devil have all the best music but a kick-ass PKI as well.
Don't worry. You may not like the idea now, but you'll be one of Us soon.
Kudos to you that you are even concerned about that.
But, in my book, that is not lying. All these online-licenses and forms are ridiculous, because they can be faked anytime by anyone.
What, apart from my ideals, stops me from registering katravax at yahoo dot com? Or buying a CD at Amazon as this identity?
Companies are trying too fool us into believing that clicking "Agree" would mean anything. But they are fully aware that the information may, in many cases, not reflect the facts. At least, that's the conclusion I drew when I saw the xth form asking me for the family income and personal tastes and whatever.
When I clicked "Agree", I didn't agree to the mentioned terms. I just clicked on an ordinary link (or button), knowing that this link would bring me to the page I wanted.
Same for the forms. I don't make any statements in these forms, I just fulfill technical requirements to get to the content I need.
I don't know, how judges in your country see this matter. But anybody claiming that the information in company databases, gained though such forms, shall be considered truth unless proved otherwise is IMO a plain fool.
most dev's make a hell of a lot more then that. i just hope thats after taxes.
-Jon
this is my sig.
No, they don't have a right to know the information about the person to whom they are sending this software! This is a large part of the entire online privacy issue. Companies think they are somehow entitled to all kind of irrelevant personal information, and apparently, so do some people.
They have an interest to know who they are sending the software to, sure, but that's totally different. It's even their prerogative to send the software only on the condition that I give them my personal information. But if I do so, it's because I agree that it's fair for them to have it, not because I think they are entitled to it.
I happen not to think it's fair for them to have my personal information, so I usually give false information, or I just don't use their service. That's my prerogative...
Everybody sign up for passport, but with fake usernames, they'll probably notice it. Here's my new username: eatme@youdraconianfucks.com It won't actually do anything, but hey it's fun.
----------------------------------
Microsoft is simply doing what most companies that own several online properties have been flamed for not doing earlier. Why should I have several logins to a service run by the same company? (The original poster failed to mention that you already need a login to the MSDN subscriber site, the only new thing is that the login now goes through passport).
I don't remember references to World Domination (TM) and Revelations when AOL required me to get an AIM user ID once they purchased Netscape. I also know lots of people who complain about the fact that ICQ and AIM don't interoperate even though they by the same company. Quite frankly, the less logins I need to maintain especially to websites owned by the same company, the better. Does CmdrTaco also complain about the fact that Yahoo Mail, Yahoo Finances, Yahoo Groups (formerly eGroups) and Geocities use the same ID?
This is probably one of the bigger non-issues picked up by Slashdot in recent history. This of course, makes more serious allegations become overlooked when there actually is something to complain about.
--
Shayne (or am I?)
Today I didn't even have to use my AK; I got to say it was a good day -- Icecube
It looks to me like you can keep using the old method if you wish to forgo the supposed benefits of the 'passport'. At least it is ambiguous enough to check out before getting upset.
Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
>Microsoft didn't steal market share, they earned it whether or not anyone agrees with how this was done.
This seems to put a new meaning to the word "earned." Just how did MS "earn" market share? And, as a matter of fact, it isn't how capitalism works. Ideally, in a capitalist system, there is a market within which competitors offer their goods and services for your money. You make the decision based upon price and quality. Now ask your self, just how did price and quality effect your choice of operating system and office suites?
MS gave away their Office Suite in the - justified - expectation that human laziness would work for them. They damned well forced DOS on computer users whether they wanted it or not. MS cornered you with your own laziness. It had nothing to do with "capitalism," and everything to do with exploiting the same parts of human nature that lead some people to become drug addicts. Habit and conditioning are things that we can reject if we wish, but MS has always known the majority are too lazy to work to learn a new word processor or spreadsheet, especially when one CAME with the computer for "free."
------ The only greater hazard to your liberty than n politicians is n+1 politicians.
Bear in mind that there will be a similar response, be it posted on Slashdot or no, to virtually anything that any company does. Microsoft just happens to have placed itself in something of an adversarial position to something that a few folks around here are rather partial to. You expect them *not* to have something to say, given the circumstances?
That's the whole reason these things come up on Slashdot in the first place - for community discussion. Zealotry happens, and it most certainly goes both ways.
Where you went wrong, just FYI, is in assuming that opinions posted on Slashdot are anything other than just that: opinions. Or is it just that the public perception of Microsoft and its actions means that much to you?
Chris Tembreull
Web Developer, NEC Systems, Inc.
Chris Tembreull
"My karma just ran over your dogma."
Incidently, this is likely why Hotmail won't go too far out of its way to stop the spam coming into email addressboxes (by offering something like a brightmail-esque block), since it knows after a while the users will have an address so flooded with spam that they will just get a new passport registration ID, which will pump up the enrollment number they can quote in their marketing literature.
---
"And the beast shall be made legion. Its numbers shall be increased a thousand thousand fold."
-----
Cast a Cold Eye
On Life, on Death
Horseman, pass by
--W.B. Yeats' gravestone
the problem with coding to the MS platform for 'money today' is that ... once MS has destroyed the alternatives, they will absolutely start going after the VAR/ISV money.
... without the monopolistic threats of MS.
Any VAR/ISV that codes for income today on MS is taking big chances on their financial future.
Linux/GPL might have a certain amount of headaches to deal with, but Netscape and Oracle both had closed source code at one point and were able to deal with GPL issues.
Linux may not seem like a big money maker today, but I believe it will be an incredible tool for VAR/ISVs down the road
The customer can install the base system on as many machines as desired without threatening letters from the MS licensing department -- making things so much easier for the VAR/ISV.
No more upgrade hassles! It's free.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
There is no 'forcing', it's just that they switch over to another authentication system. I won't comment on yuor last paragraph since that makes totally NO sence at all
--
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
What's the big f*cking deal? Both are Microsoft servers, both do the same thing. And before anyone is crying along, people who want to customize their MSDN site, already HAVE TO register with passport since last year.
Anyway, it's for access to microsoft software, to download that software. Hmmm... Sounds like an interesting topic for an open source developer, not?
--
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
Exactly: they track whatever you do with the card. Build databases with it, run OLAP queries on it. But you did know that, didn't you? So when you wanted a creditcard, you lied with bogus information so they couldn't use the info they gathered from your usage of the card. Oh wait, then you can't succesfully USE the card.
I don't get it when you complain about the passport account you have to create, when you get the MSDN cd's mailed to your doorstep and had to pay for these cd's with probably that creditcard mentioned above. What do you think will happen when you give out REAL information? Will they kill your family ? torture you to give them your creditcard? No. Just less than what happens when you purchase something with your creditcard at wallmart.
Think about it.
--
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
Well, even easier is to use a random combination of letters (in upper and lower case), numbers and punctuation. As you're supposed to do for passwords... So, just choose one of your old passwords (that you still remember), and use that as your username.
I doubt it was modded down because it was censored.
More like it was modded down because it was stupid. Let's do the numbers:
90% Windows
5% Linux
5% Apple
(These are the last numbers I saw - but I doubt they've changed much.)
If you could develop a product to sell to 90% of the world's computer users, would you let some silly platform bias get in the way of that? Hell no, you'd go for the big money. Software development isn't cheap, and you need to sell to the most people in order to recoup your costs.
It doesn't matter if you're technically savvy. If you're financially savvy, you're writing for Windows. Sorry, the situation does suck (I'd like to see software written for all platforms, but there's no money in that), but we're stuck with it.
And if you want to learn more about what passport is before you get one - you have to go to a web site that requires a pssport. Wonderful.
Several years ago I remember having to sign up for MSDN just to use the knowledge base. And I had to use their knowledgebase since their tech support wouldn't even talk to you unless you gave them your credit card number. I forgot my password the first couple of times so I ended up showing up as 3 different MSDN members using slightly different spellings of my name.
;^)
Not long afterward the usual Ms mouthpieces announced in their columns that Java was dead because there were only x number of Java developers but that there were millions of MSDN developers and their ranks were swelling at a much faster rate.
So expect to see articles in trade rags soon claiming that Passport is wonderful and that people are flocking to it in even higher numbers than expected.
But what if I really am a an albino nepalese scotsgaelic neanderthal from northern Peru?
I don't mean to state the obvious here, but just because they request personal information, does not mean you have to be HONEST with your personal information.
Only fill out what is absolutely critical (like an email address). Be creative with the rest. I'm sure if enough do this, it'll totally screw up the statistical data they are compiling.
Feed The Need[goatse.cx]
while(rant) { It's quite unethical for a company to even ask money for any sort of development tool for their own system. "Hey, give us n dollars and help increase our hold on the market and largen our monopoly. Oh, and give us extra if you want this feature. Oh and some more for this." At the very least, Microsoft should give away Visual Studio as every product developed through it must be run on Windows machines. Many SDK's and what not are already free. If I was doing active development on Windows outside of work, there would be no way in the world I'd pay the Microsoft tax. And another thing that ticks me off is "per-processor" licensing schema. But that's another topic entirely. break; }
"Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman
Stop whining. If you have to give information, give the information of the owner of the MSDN subscription. If you still don't want to do that, give fake information. Typical case of hypocrytical Microsoft whining. If you choose to develop for them, you pay the price. And don't tell me you don't have a choice. There's always a choice. Unless you believe in something to your death it's not worth believing in, is it? Let me stop now, I almost feel pity.
"Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman
Once again, you're furthering their market share. They should be happy you're developing on their OS especially in the web server market, for instance, because they don't have even a prayer's chance of catching up to free software in that area and some others.
"Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman
First, MSDN subscribers are... Subscribers, so somewhere there has to be information about WHO'S subscribed and etc etc.
Second, not that I'll protect microsoft, but I'll surely won't protect over-reaction as well, they are a buisness, how many pirate copies of MSDN and especially how many of you people that didn't pay zit ever got hold of a FTP password to get the latest winXX build? That's blattant piracy, bandwidth chocking and let's face it, evil. Some will argue that being evil with E-vil is good, I won't get into that argument, but if linux would be on top of the food chain and do the same thing, I'm sure most of the people whining here would put the same energy saying how good it is and how good it is to use the technology developped, not just let it sit somewhere.
Microsoft has it's flaw, heck credit cards and banks had their, I remember when people could mass-order stuff from mail-order catalogues and never get caught, that was WAY worse than my info being shared to x and y... because most of the credit card companies wouldn't take the cash hit and the buyer was left screwed. I'd take my personnal info being shared any day over being frauded (yeah I know, my info being shared could POTENTIALLY lead to me being frauded too... but still, weight the balance to some extent).
Now by identifying every users, I'm sure the downloads won't be overcrowded like I recall when win2000 was beta. Plus, I didn't read the passport rules, but I'm sure you can create a 'corporate' (create a msdn@company.com) email account for your company and if you don't want YOUR info being spread out.
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
For users outside of the US, Microsoft still owns all your data sent through Passport.
Or you could smoke crack and be a programmer at Microsoft.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
If they billed your card without authorization (be careful, you may have "agreed" to be resubscribed) do a charge back with the credit card company.
(Credit card companies HATE shady merchants.)
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
NO difference betwen loggin in via passport? You forget, passport shares the data. Would you be happy with your boss getting your bank account PIN to make it easier to log into your work pc?
Fight Spammers!
If it were a free service like Hotmail or MSN chat, yeah no problem. Make all the fake names you want. However you pay for MSDN, which means they have your REAL name and address (or maybe your company's name and address). Which means your browser cookie associated with your REAL name and ID follows you when you browse EVERY Passport site.
The solution is use the MSDN Passport account only for MSDN. Make accounts with fake info for when you want to be anonymous. It's a pain in the ass signing out and signing in to Passport to switch accounts, so I'd suggest launching different browsers for your extra accounts, like Netscape, Opera, or Mozilla or whatever.
then why not create an account for your Job Identity? This makes more sense than it being personal. Hate confusing business with play-zhure, after all.
They do not have the Right to know anything about him. The circumstances of payment may mean that he has to provide that info, but purchasing anything does not obligate him to divulge information about himself to the vendor. And MS DOESN'T have any right based on how CHEAPLY they provide ANYTHING.
Re: info on the check - IANAL but that info may be restricted for purposes of extracting payment. They can't use it for just anything, that's for sure. They can't legally sell it, I don't think.
But re: company address/phone - too true. I don't know why the bloke feels compelled to use his personal data.
I have no Passport account.= /library/en-us/win32/hh/portals/win32start_1n6t.as p
I did a search on Google.
Try this site: http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url
Yeah, I don't see a download, you might be able to download the site to your desktop using Teleport or something.
I'd mod you up if I could, I agree completely. doesn't take much for the linux zealots to come out of the woodwork.
funny how most of the really good points were pointing how how small of a 'big deal' this is.
If you're hearing rhetoric about Linux, open source, or Mac and everyone's bashing Microsoft, you've found Slashdot.
Take a chill pill, guys -- Microsoft just wants to consolidate all their services and make things easier. Passport simplifies things for them, and for their users. "But Nooo, I can't give out my email address, even if it's a fake one for spam!" ... argh. Grow up already...
They already has your personal information if you are a MSDN subscriber. It make sense to any organization to consolidate their authentication infrastructure into one single system - rather than keeping separate systems for different services.
The real name of the Bill Gates is William Henry Gates III. Nowadays he is known as Bill Gates (III), where "III" means the order of third (3rd). By converting the letters of his name to the ASCII-values (which are used in computers) you will get the following:
B = 66
I = 73
L = 76
L = 76
G = 71
A = 65
T = 84
E = 69
S = 83
3 = 3
-------
666
Other names which also adds up to 666: Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin and The Pope.
Yes, I know it's only a C compiler, but you'd be surprised how coding in the Win32API instead of MFC can speed up and un-bloat your code.
The only contact with MS you really need is to download the PSDK, which so far has been free and anonymous, and even then the PSDK is just nice to have, not essential.
Then in your case you would fill in "caucasian" and "boring male, 29, Providence, RI." See how easy?
Scarce, scared, scarred, sacred... -Col. Bruce Hampton
The real problem isn't that MS will get your personal data when you sign up - you can just make up stuff. The problem is that they will be able to associate all your logins to all the Passport-enabled sites to track you. All they have to do is get one real piece of data from you, e.g. a real email address, and you've given them the ability to track many things about you and what you're doing. What we all really need is a Passport randomizer service, so that any two logins you make to Passport-enabled services are never for the same identity. Imagine a Passport client that creates identities and always has a new one ready to use. This has the added benefit of filling up their disk with logins that will only be used once. If a hotmail account is automatically created by passport, that's even better - the client can post the email address to a few key places and fill the account up with SPAM. Distributed SPAM from around the net, filling up hotmail disks and keeping the bogus accounts active. If enough people used this hypothetical client, it would render Passport useless, or force Microsoft to waste a ton of money trying to scale it on pathetic Wintel hardware.
Dear future mindslave,
MSDN® Subscriptions is pleased to announce that the MSDN Subscriber Download Web site at http://msdn.microsoft.com:666/subscriptions/resour ces/papers/help/assport/isnt/this/a/really/conveni ent/snappy/and/easy-to-memorize/url?subdwnld.asp will soon be downgrading its logon authentication technology to Microsoft® Assport.
Microsoft Assport provides personal authentication services that make it easier for us to track your every move, and makes it faster and more secure for you to sell your pathetic little soul into our custody.
Beginning in late June, the MSDN Subscriber Download Web site will prompt you to sign up for your personal Assport with a friendly little 110v electric shock through your keyboard and associate your current subscriber record, social security number, credit card number, favorite web sites, and embarassing personal habits to this Assport. After signing up, access to your personal information will be easier, faster, and more secure for our flying monkeys.
For complete details, and to sign up now for your free identification barcode/tattoo, please visit http://www.assport.com.
Sincerely,
The MSDN Acquisitions Team
http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscriptions
I build model citizens.
The bookstore had 20, 25 books about Linux and maybe 3 about FreeBSD. Easy choice :)
;)
maybe easy, maybe not.
I think the references to Revelation came due to a combination of factors:
There's the one about the new "no Free tools" MS EULA.
There's the one about smart-tags.
There's the one about MS Money and VISA.
Oh yeah, and there's the one about the MS sales department hanging license audits over the heads of those who don't "upgrade" their products.
Also, I happen to be an MSDN subscriber... The new EULA for that essentially says you have to sign up on MSDN online, or you forfeit your license rights.
Now, to make life easier MS has decided to help us all by requiring the same log on for developer docs and MSDN.
Basically Microsoft has their fingers in a ton of different pies, they have a really big stick to hit with(software licensing), and not many checks or balances on that power. Even if they had a saintly history, I'd still be worried.
It doesn't help that Microsoft has a pay structure that requires continued growth to continue working... Hard to sell more OS's when you're already at 95% market share, then the whole market begins to peak.
Microsoft isn't the only company I'm worried about, they've just got the biggest stick. Perhaps we'll pass some sane copyright laws next time around?
Every time I use passport it gives me tons of problems. I have nothing againsts MS, just when they make shitty services
Unethical? Why should any company devote thousands of man-hours to creating something, and then give it to you for free? Remember, they had to pay for those thousands of man-hours. Perhaps Microsoft could just take a cut of the action when you develop the next killer app?
Hmmm this got me thinking... the Microsoft Public License: "Yeah, we'll give it to you, but you can never ever charge anyone a penny for anything you develop with it." I bet they'd still sell a few copies. It's the price of getting in on the action.
Here is what I wrote on that subject, with a response taht basically told me I could opt out.
Oh, but that isn't true, is it???
I Could Opt Out, but only by opting out of MSDN...
*sigh*
Oh! Make sure you read the rebuttal where I was told I was Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. You know, it's like the inmates defending the warden. What a total brainwashing some people undergo!
Every time some idiot defends MS, I wonder what sort of upbringing they experienced. I bet their Dad beat them a lot, and convinced them that they deserved it.
SDMI: Finally! Music that won't rip or burn! Brought to you by the fine folks at RIAA.
Yes, he is
If you want regular online customer support from Microsoft, too, you first have to set up a Passport account. Calling the 800 number is no better--all I got was a runaround, after expensive long-distance calls.
See the support options under http://support.microsoft.com/directory/costoptions .asp
Note--paid support costs $35--apparently even to report a defective disc.
I have a fully authentic Windows 98SE full edition CD-ROM that has evidently gone bad. I bought it at a flea market from a dealer, along with a disk drive, which I was told was needed to make the sale legal.
When the install to the drive stopped because of some error pertaining to a corrupt TrueType font, I used my Linux computer to go to the Microsoft support website which told me to call 1-800-426-9400 and talk to a person there.
This is a lie--there are no persons at that number unless you know an extension.
The answering machine at that number told me to call 1-425-635-7040. The voice mail system told me to input my product ID, which can be found only once you install Win98, by rightclicking the "My Computer" icon. This doesn't help if you can't even install Windows.
The person at that number then told me that he could not help me because I had bought an "OEM" version of the software. He told me to call 1-800-325-1233. But he warned me that if the disc was not bad, that I would have to pay for any support.
The person at that 800 number (after a long wait) told me that the computer dealer should not have sold me the disc in the first place and that I needed to take it back to that dealer. But that dealer has no power to manufacture Win98 discs--only Microsoft can do that.
Eventually I learned that I could apply to buy a new copy of the disc. But I would have to follow some complicated procedure to give them my product ID and key, and they would have to manufacture another disc with the exact same key. The support person claimed that my computer "knew" that number, and no other disc would work on it--even though I had repartitioned and formatted the hard drive. She refused to honor my request to have a replacement disc for a defective one.
Then she told me that I would have to pay $35 for the privilege of getting a replacement disc, even if the disc I bought was defective.
If consumers have to be treated as criminals in order to apply to get support, and have to give up their privacy to this big corporation in return for support--is it any wonder that many of us turn to Linux instead?
Rumor has it that MS is planning on expanding passport into an authentication service that "everyone" will use. Not just for MS, MSDN and Hotmail, but for Ebay, government sites, PayPal, Banks, 401K, etc., etc. Step one is for MS to provide this authentication service. This will allow MS to track where you go because they will authenticate you...much like Double-Click; with the major exception that MS will have your name, address and e-mail as well. Step two in the master plan is codenamed "HailStorm". MS wants you to provide them all of your personal data once, so that HailStorm enabled sites can just query HailStorm for your personal data in order to provide a service. Any HailStorm compliant bank can pull enough data to approve a loan. A HailStorm compliant insurance company could quote you for home or life insurance, etc., etc., etc. In many ways hacking passport becomes the holy grail. If other people buy into the concept and use passport the legal ramifications are interesting. If passport authenticates people and is hacked would Microsoft be liable? In my humble opinion, if this does catch on it will need to be incredibly secure and will become an instant target for the hacker and cracker community at large. ~Sapientia~
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Although I'm a little bit worried about the typical Microsoft-isms (poor security, undesired 'linking' of data, forcing us all to buy Office, etc..), I have to say that the passport IDEA is a good one, at least from the point of view of the consumer. THis way, I can enter a fake name only once, instead of racking my brain each time for a witty fake name.
I hate having to remember my various accounts on various web sites (NY Times, Sun, even Slashdot) when I change machines or wipe out my Cookies.
My question is: if not microsoft, then who should be responsible for such a service? the US Postal Service/Canada Post? the CIA?
Yes, it is a little more convienient to have a single login across several sites. However, if the security of Passport(or one of the websites to which it connects) is comprimised, your access to all the sites is potentially comprimised. Why let them just get into your hotmail account when you can let them access you MSDN account, online banking accounts, IRA accounts and everything else that MS will have using Passport in the future? Several accounts may be a PITA, but a unified login opens up a much larger security hole if an exploit is found. And let's face it, MS has not always been the most security-conscious developer. The best alternative is quick development of biometric technologies. I would rather be authenticated by my fingerprints or retinas than entrust MS with my security.
Enigma
Enigma
1) give fake info (this will work until passport becomes ubiquitous, and you'll have to give out real info, but for now it's fun) 2) use GNU tools, not m$ tools (yes, even at work. try it.) 3) reverse engineer the Passport Beast (if you've got the skillz) and put it out on Freenet and Gnutella 4) quit your clueless-employer job (as richard stallman did) if you don't agree with them. stop contributing to the madne$$, either get a linux-related job, or get a non-computer-related job (like i am doing) and work on GPL software in your spare time! now is not the time for complaining. now is the time for civil disobedience.
Oh, that's right...
"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."
-Revelations 13:17
-- dR.fuZZo
This is simply a case of "selling" one product and force the buyer to buy another product or service even if that buyer don't agree with the terms of use of that other product.
In Belgium this is in fact illegal: (dutch)koppelverkoop or "conditional sale" (even for "free" - as you pay with your trackable identity or information, turned into a saleable negotiable item).
My MS Messenger service (I once needed to contact technical support people) forced me to use a hotmail account, which asked me to sign up for a PassPort account. I refused the latter, only noticing a couple of days later I could SIGN OFF my Passport account. MS used my hotmail account to ram an unwanted "free" PassPort down my throat.
To be correct: I think MS stole my "secure" identity to sell as a product to others.
PassPort is a separate product with very high market value, which increases with every sign-up, so your "free" account is really an extra asset for MS.
Besides the doubtful tactic of MS, it is scary. MS has the potential to have a monopolistic global identification system just waiting to be adopted by those governments, let's see in a few years what has happened.
(Even the UK government has now a public(!) official site (made by MS) that is only secured thru MS Windows compatible products and access software (IE) - speaking of UK stupidity)
So who's in command here?
--------
* Sigh *
So what? In the past, MSDN subscribers had to remember a different username and password to be able to download the MS material and now they only have to remember their hotmail password. For God's sake, how can this be bad? I was damn happy when they announced it.
Grow up, stop trolling, not everything MS does is bad, hey I don't feel like remembering 20 passwords. I mean I have accounts with Slashdot, Linux.com, MSDN, and many others, do you really think I'm going to remember all those passwords? Hell no
Microsoft is licensing VERY CHEAPLY their development and office tools and a huge database of technical information. Of COURSE they have a right to know the information about the person to whom they are sending this software.
:)
The Internet and tools to access the Internet are available to you at a very low cost or free. Therefore, the Internet has the right to know your credit card number. Please include your credit card number, and you full name and address, in a reply to this post.
(Or send it to me directly
I love the title of the article, "MSDN Subscriber Forced to use Passport". It just begs to have "Oh, the Humanity!" placed right after it.
eudas
Blessed is he who expects the worst, for he shall not be disappointed.
... of a lot of forged data in the passport-system. I mean, if someone told me to give up my privacy, he'd better not expect true answers.
Regards,
Bill Gates,
CEO IBM Munich,
Monthly income: $500,000 or greater
Fight hunger. Filet a politician and send him to a 3rd world country of your choice.
Freedom is slavery and doubleplus-uninnovative. While ingorance is strength and doubleplus-innovative. As a member of the insoc-MSDN party we need a way for the MSN telescreens by apple-compaq-hp-IBM corporation to know who we are so clippy can contact the MS marketing department(aka thought police).
Think about how doubleplus-inovative MS is. We can go actively explore on the internet and communicate and access everyone on messenger with the MSN telescreens and excel in life. We also need to turn in thought criminals to the ms department of Love(aka marketing). So that they can actively inform their double oldthought ways to active newthought ones and excel in their thinking.
Also your comments are not only counter revolutionary but also are in oldthink and oldspeak which are doubleplus-ungood. You need to use the right active words in your office when you write such things.
With Passport you can go to any Microsoft approved website and all the data can be accessed because the data will be integrated. Just look at what happened when Microsoft took over the whole IT industry. Expect the sameplus active results when Microsoft takes every oops leads online transaction and every service concievable known to man on the web. I just can't wait. THe insoc-MSDN party clearly says that our lives our actively better now. Especially those in the inner-MCSE party.
Think double positives when your doublewrite in double oldthink.
http://saveie6.com/
However, when you go to order your pet's favorite food from www.alpo.com, the dog food company will force you to log in via your Passport account, because their servers run .NET. You get the convenience of one password, right? Your dog food purchase will be correlated with your previous purchases and preferences. Pretty soon, Microsoft will know everything about you.
There are some compelling reasons to register a real name and address sometimes. This is what people are worried about.
// Alan Porter
And VA Linux is going out of (hardware) business...
creation science book
Charge large sums of money to access information or move to open source where people actually make an effort to share what they have done. M$ seems to nudge developers further and further away.
A moving target of an API's and licsenses, make the job hard enough. Like the old cliche "death by a thousand prick's".
By definition, a government has no conscience. Sometimes it has a policy, but nothing more. - Albert Camus
If you are concerned about privacy then wait for your quarterly discs to arrive or sign up using company information.
"...How long before MSNBC requires it? Windows? IE? Your Visa company works with Microsoft Money, so you can bet that sooner or later, you'll need passport to balance your checkbook and credit cards. Paranoid delusion? Of course not..."
Actually, I think I heard somewhere that in order to use WinXP's internet features, you will need a Passport account. It will store your user info, preferences, etc. and I wouldn't be surprised if it were tied to that hardware-authentication program they've got coming up.
MS's whole Internet initiative is based on the fact that they own such a large portion of the desktop marketshare and that making all (Internet-connected) Windows users into Passport users will make Microsoft the link between users and the Internet. They will get revenue from refering users to commerce sites, plus some from banner ads due to high traffic on MSN/Passport-enabled sites, and however many other ways they can think to exploit having such a large number of registered users.
As has been said before-- you can sign up using your WORK information on a seperate freemail account (or, use a specially created work account (eg: If you work at fud.com, and your real account is john.doe@fud.com, then make a new account-- msdn_john.dos@fud.com, and use it for Passport)), viola, no problem with personal info or tracking to other sites you visit on your personal time.
Secondly, CT makes a stink about Microsoft using Passport-- what again is the problem with this? I'd rather have them using and trusting their own technology than trying to sell it to us without using it themselves (as has been the case with certain Microsoft owned servers running Apache even though MS has IIS and pushes IIS to the masses).
Finally, if you really are a Win32 developer or WinCE developer or whatever, you DON'T have to use Microsoft tools-- Borland (and other companies, Metrowerks comes to mind) make compilers for Microsoft based operating systems. If all you want are the SDK's for developing software under Windows, you can STILL download the entire PlatformSDK either over the web using their smallish installer, or download the entire mess from ftp.microsoft.com/developr/platformsdk/, just pick a recent release and download the entire CD contents (FYI: There's a Jun2001 directory, but it's currently empty as I write this, but the Feb2001 is REALLY recent, and deals with some recent additions with Windows XP Beta 2). Other SDK's I think you can grab via FTP too, but I'm not so sure.
In a nutshell, this isn't a major development, it's not new (I bought Encarta Deluxe 2001, and signed up for the online version (free with the deluxe purchase), and Encarta uses Passport to validate your access), and it's a damn good idea. I'd like to see some other competitors in the "authentication of user identities" biz though, but I don't know of any off-hand that are this well established and easy to use..
All I know about Bush is I had a good job when Clinton was president.
I'm still trying to figure out why this registration hysteria is all around the net. I must have registered at least 30 times on various sites, but I don't think I have got any advantages for doing so (couse it's been required).
regardsWhy do I need to register everywhere? Please give me the choice to _not_ register.
Funny how at first glance that looks like -Revelations 13:37.
Then you get passports being illegal in Maryland and quite possibly Europe too.
So, does this mean that Microsoft tools are now no longer on sale to ... well basically any state or nation who won't bend over the Microsoft way? And is this Microsoft's way of punishing those places for their terribly naughtiness or a case of Microsoft putting so many policies in to effect they've just accidently closed themselves off to what's starting to look like the majority of code developing states and nations?
Exagerating, to say the least. MS is neither the only game in town for Windows development, nor the best. 'Course, that said, I do have a MSDN Universal subscription, but it's pretty cheap for the stuff you get. Disclaimer: I am an offensively rabid Delphi fan, and I think MS dev tools pretty much reek.
meh.
See this previous /. article:
Microsoft's Passport: No Marylanders, Thanks
Does this mean that the Maryland residents are now no longer to join MSDN?
Doesn't this violate some labor laws? Or at least some anti-trust or interstate commerce acts?
Will M$ tell Maryland to repeal the UCITA that they tried to get passed in the first place?
Thus sprach DrQu+xum.
DrQu+xum: Proof that the lameness filter doesn't work.
How is this different than certain messageboards or other sites like FilePlanet that require you to register to use them? I just went in for kicks to look at the requirements for a passport, and the most invasive question besides your e-mail address (like you've NEVER given it out before) is asking for your country/state information. BIG F'in DEAL! I know people here want to bash on Microsoft and Gates every chance they get, but get a life people. Next thing you know they'll be a report about how a majority of MS employees drive automobiles to work and the statistics on how much their commute each day hurts our 'free' air.
"I think it's safe to assume Microsoft is going to end up requiring everyone to use Passport in order to use services like Hotmail."
You're behind the times pal - MS locked Passport into Hotmail a long time ago. I've never visited Passport.com, but I have my happy little Passport ID, since I've been a member of Hotmail since way back before MS owned them.
The strange thing is that when I go to get my downloads, I still get asked for my BetaID & password. I can't log into without logging into Passport. You'd think that having a singular uname/pass would be convenient, except that I know need two unmaes/passes to get into one place. How thoughful of MS.
-bZj
prompt> finger Down8
Login: Down8 In real life: I am a Viking.
.sig
they ask you for information.
uhh....hmm...we're not AOLers here. We should KNOW BETTER than to give out ACTUAL INFORMATION.
Plain COMMON SENSE.
You know, that's probably not Microsoft's core market. And even so, most software companies offer educational discounts. A HS kid can probably get VC++ through a local college for $5... At least in this area they can.
end communication
lupus@blue#whois assport.com
.com, .net, and .org domains can now be registered
with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net
for detailed information.
Whois Server Version 1.3
Domain names in the
Domain Name: ASSPORT.COM
Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, INC.
Whois Server: whois.networksolutions.com
why do i find this so funny?
--saint----
"... Microsoft has proved untrustworthy in the past."
-- U.S. District Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson is his order in case No. 98-1232.
Bush's education improvements were
I hear ya buddy. I mean, bosses SUCK. The other day, you know what my boss does to make me earn my paycheck? You want to know? Get this: He makes me follow my job description.
Can you imagine THE NERVE?!
Start a march or grab a special color of ribbon or something. I'm with you. Fight the power.
--------
Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...
The CD's were shipped every month, but if you wanted to download things like a WinME iso image, you had to log into the web site with a special downloading utility. They had a Netscape 4.x plug in and one of those ActiveX controls for IE. They tried to spin it as a "smart" download client.
Anyhow, the plug in did not work (for me) using Netscape & Linux. Might have worked with Nescape on the windows side, but I never tried that. I did pester the hell out of their support staff trying to get IE for Solaris to work with the control. MuHaHaHa...
Wonder if passport works with Solaris this time around?
+++ UGUCAUCGUAUUUCU
Trolls throughout history:
Trolls throughout history:
Jonathan Swift
I don't want to but my job requirements and MS give me no choice!
Poor attempt at a troll, hon.
--Jo Hunter
--Jo Hunter
Smile! It makes them wonder what you're up to.
Consider for a moment that instead of MS sites linking data pass/login's that OSDN did the same what would the community reaction be? I for one wouldn't mind having one login for umpteen million osdn sites, so why not fight fire with fire?
If you were the five-hundred pound gorilla, wouldn't you throw your weight around too? This is what MS likes to call innovation. I'm not sure that using brute force really qualifies as an innovation, though.
GUIs are like diapers, everyone grows out of them eventually.
for a passport you don't need age, gender, or even a name. they just ask for email, country, zip/postal code. Mind you with a postal code they can narrow down to exactly what block you live on which might not be over the top.
Dear MSDN subscriber,
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
MSDN?Subscriptions is pleased to announce that the MSDN Subscriber Download Web site at http://goatse.cx will soon be upgrading its logon authentication technology to Microsoft?Passport.
Microsoft Passport provides personal exploitation services that make it easier for everybody to navigate your personal details between Web sites, and makes it faster and more secure for others to make purchases online for you.
Beginning in late June, the MSDN Subscriber Download Web site will bugger you to sign up for your personal Passport and associate your current subscriber record, social security details, marital status, medical results, driving habits, etc. to this Passport. After signing up, access to MSDN Subscriber Downloads will be easier, faster, and more secure - not you, I mean, others can.
For complete details of your own personal details, please visit http://www.passport.com - your personal details are already there.
Sincerely,
The MSDN Subreptitious Team
 _
I don't see what's so bad about it. I'm a MSDN member too, and I find it quite convient to be able to use a universal login for all microsoft sites.
Even if they weren't using passport they would still require you to submit all your personal info and create a new account.
This method is one of convience for the end user. It's nothing more and if you have a problem with giving out your company address (you do say you are an MSDN member for your job, didn't you), you have real problems.
Otherwise, I guess you could go hide in a corner and not come out. This would solve all the problems of your online privacy.
"I'll just chip in a bit for RedHat: I actually have that installed on my university machine." - Linus, '95
//So, if you want to write code under windows, you must use Passport. Or not use MSDN. And lets face it, if you develop under windows, you must buy MSs tools, and you sure can't use those tools without their docs. Times like this I just sorta throw my hands up in the air and say wow//
Why would you say wow? That makes perfect sense to me. If you want to code FOR a company, they get your personal information. Or whatever they choose to require. You ARE writing code for THEIR software. And now they're making the technically 'savy' (of course, spelled wrong in the article by a technically savvy individual) use passport? FOR SHAME. Why are we so eletist that we decide those people who are on a lower plane of technical knowhow should be forced to giveaway their personal information, but we should remain totally anonymous.
I dislike microsoft, but i dislike linux eletists just as much.
First off, MSDN downloads are a subscriber based service -- they've got to keep track of subscriptions somehow! And Passport is MS' new cross server identification system...of COURSE they're going to want to use it. I wouldn't want to have a different password for each server in the apple CVS network, and the same goes for MS' web services. They HAVE revamped the license and it's not nearly as serpentine as before.
But that doesn't stop you from using your ultimate response to any and all registration systems: lie. Lie as much as you can! Lie discordantly! Click female sometimes, male others, enter your race as an albino nepalese scotsgaelic neanderthal from northern Peru, and by all means give them false contact information. If we want to avoid the possible ramifications for misuse of our personal information, then we've got to give false information. Don't be a demographic, be ALL demographics! Nobody said you had to be truthful when asked a question. If MS needs your real name and real MSDN subscriber id, give them...but everything else in your passport should be clever fibs, abominations and halftruths. I like to build unflattering portfolios of people who bug the shit out of me at work.
After all, it won't take much worthless information for MS to drop this whole shenanigan and go to something useful (like an incredibly lightweight key based system...let's introduce PKE to the masses). Marketeers always get theirs in the end when they promote something this annoying...hence, the dotcom bust.
Hey freaks: now you're ju
Ok kiddies here is the recipe you write the cookbook. 1) Write scripts to generate new passport (bogus) info. 2) Give to friends. 3) Generate thousands of accounts. 4) Iterate. 5) This will quickly swamp passport services. Note: Look for new legislation making it a crime to provide false or misleading info to corporations. This will be one way hashed.
Wow! This was news to me...
If they suspect you of a crime, why do they need to check your ID? Why don't they just arrest you?
I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth.
You're not missing anything. It's just the typical sentationalist crap that gets spouted on Slashdot because of the number of "developers" (and I use that term VERY loosely) here who would rather attempt to shoot down other companies software than build their own.
My God, Microsoft has a site where you can download FULL versions of their software, and they require you to register before doing so!!!
Even worse, they are attempting to use a standardized authentication mechanism for their entire company!!!!
Somebody call in the lawyers, this has to be a conspiracy!
Linux...they can't GIVE that crap away!
Microsoft Passport. Microsoft.Net. The two services are going to rely on each other like parasites. Don't fool yourself -- Microsoft is going to make this work. They have the monopoly power to do it.
These kind of things scare me. Today, Passport stores your info and fills in fields. Tomorrow, MS will be providing the credit card verification services. All data will flow through Microsoft. Then they start charging money per transaction. Bill Gates is able to pull off what Congress and 50 states haven't -- taxing internet purchases.
Then, when Passport provides verification for 90% of the sites out there, they start charging a monthly fee to maintain your account. Who knows what else will happen.
So go ahead and sign up for your Passport account now, save yourself the time later. Because if the Department of Justice doesn't wake up tomorrow and smell what we do today, I see Jon Katz's predictions about the Internet coming true.
Here's to hoping that we don't find ourselves saying "I told you so" in a few years...
That was blatently plagerized from a humour site (http://bbspot.com/News/2000/9/linux_laid.html) You changed the name of a random fictional kernel hacker to Linus Torvalds for some reason, and posted it here very irrelevently.
Don't worry we're actively working to get rid of as much M$ software as we can - we have linux installed on our intranet server and a couple of other servers and have been evaluating desktop applications for some time.
We were also forced to sign up for a passport account in order to view the records of what microsoft licenses we have purchased.
In my opinion Microsoft's ultimate desire is to have every personal computer's (nay, every device with a microprocessor) power switch replaced with a credit card reader.
Okay, sure, companies want information. I think the three-hundred-odd posts here give good credibility to the idea that purchasers of software and development tools don't *want* to give their information. Of course, without the anti-ms glasses on (oh gods--it's so BRIGHT out here!) we can say that some people (like you) are willing to admit that info-gathering is a necessary evil. But personal-or-even-company-information-COLLECTING? Collaborating? Market-statisticking? That's not cool.
/dare/ Billy Gates to build a database on US!
Thankfully, there is at least a potential solution.
So, let's have everybody out there who's sick of ms sign up for as many bogus Passport accounts as possible! Do at least thirty! Do them when you're bored; sign up for free email accts (try to use MS or another morally-scruffy company) and use them for Passport account upon Passport account. Tell them you're a black German woman with nine toes (they have a field for toes, don't they?) and you work for the CIA.
Tracking human beings like that is insulting to some of us, like me. Some of you all were probably raised with video-cameras in your day cares and are kinda used to that sort of thing, but I say let's
Erm...Very Minor Hack The Planet!
-ST
I was registering MSVC++ today, and i found out that i had to have a passport in order to register. Now, what I'm wondering, is why do I have to subsribe to this passport thing when I have to give them my information anyway when i register. Seems awfully redudant to me.
Got Freedom?
Thinking?
This also does not affect everyone who wants to develop on windows. The MSDN documentation is free and is not under any sort of documentation. This only effects people already paying Microsoft a couple thousand a year for MSDN.
I actually will admit that I like this change. It means there is one less password I need to remember. As a MSDN subscriber I am already a customer of Microsoft and what is the difference between having to establish an account directly with MSDN or using one via Passport? I think it makes much more sense that Microsoft has one unified logon system for their website. Microsoft using its influence to have passport be used on other sites is an entirely different matter than using it for their own sites authentication.
Last week the wire services announced that MS would shut down ListBot in August. They want people to start paying for List Builder instead.
Last month my boss thought it would be a good idea for us to use MSN Messenger for quick questions at work. He did not seem to mind that we would all have to register at Passport, nor that all our messages would go through MSN.
He wouldn't let me put up a local Jabber server because of the time it would take to configure and administer.
Both of which, it seems to me, are kind of shaky complaints. If the current terms of use are troubling, that's one thing, but the fact that the bad bits have been removed means that the bad bits aren't there to complain about any more. Yeah, they could add the bad bits again in the future, but no more so than any company could modify their terms of use after the fact (e.g. Microsoft could modify the MSDN site terms of use in exactly the same way).
And while I certainly agree that Passport is a much juicier cracking target than the MSDN user database, the fact is that any personal data you supply to MSDN -- or anyone else, for that matter -- is also vulnerable to security breaches. Do you have evidence to suggest that Passport is less secure than MSDN's user database?
It seems to me that once you've given your data to one part of Microsoft, you've given it to all of Microsoft, and the fact that they're copying it from one database to another isn't that big a deal.
None of which is meant to defend their apparent goal of taking over the world's authentication services, which I do have a big problem with -- but although I admit I rolled my eyes when I got my copy of the MSDN E-mail this morning, I concluded that this isn't really a significant development.
I had the same idea.
Overload them with useless information....
"Do you have a television handy?" --Doctor Who
No they do not have the right to our personal information.
I suppose companies can "demand", ie ask for information, and refuse services to people who refuse to give out private info. Just as we can respond to this by telling them to shove it.
But on the other hand, MS is a monopoly. And this would be yet another abuse of that monopoly.
And on yet another hand, since this person paid for a service I wonder if it is breach of contract for MS to require Passport after the fact.
Why wouldn't they have to use passports? What do those developers think they are, diplomats or something? n/m
Es ist nicht leicht ein Gott zu sein. www.woofcat.com
Isn't Passport illegal in one or more states? I seem to recall something about residents of a state being unable to use Passport.
I currently get the MSDN newsletter (no MSDN subscription), but have a new email address and wanted to change the address it's sent to. Guess what - I can't without signing up for Passport.
I guess I will just have to go without when mail to that address starts bouncing...
A default Passport profile has your name and logon name in it and nothing else! Hardly an invasion of privacy. You don't even need to put your REAL name in there. Any other info you put in is your choice. When Hailstorm rolls out, you will have Access Control Lists on your information that default to deny everyone, so any info that Passport spits out you had to give it permission to do so first, so any leaks of your private info are your ineptitude. Just try getting a credit card or a video club membership with that sort of control over your information. Ha!
Setup and install and configure is 10 minutes time, and it keeps your messages internal. Oh, and there are no advertisements (professional appearances matter sometimes). Your boss, I am sorry to report, is wack.
what the hell is a 'junk character', anyway?
I just don't get the big deal here. You sign up for the passport. Get a hotmail address, use it only to sign up for the passport, give bogus personal info, and volia! You're golden. So what if they're compiling data about what MS sites you visit? It's not like you're involved in any super seekrit NSA missions that would require you to be all hush-hush. And if you were, well, I'm pretty sure that you could find a way around it. Sure, MS is a megalithic beast that may in fact be trying to summon the anti-christ and begin the end times, but damn...not EVERYTHING is a conspiracy. Just the Masons. And the Knights Templar. And the oil companies. And the Papacy. Ok, well, so maybe everything is a conspiracy...
"I do not regret the things I have done, but those that I did not do."
same here. the company i work for is trying to get all the licenses in order (we're quite a bit out of line, actually) before the new licensing shit hits in october. using passport for the eopen.microsoft.com thing sucks - but not as much as how this company i work for is reacting. we're afraid of microsoft, so we're caving in. we're not even using office 2000 yet, but we're buying the licenses. why? so that we can get preferential treatment under the new licensing system. it's not healthy for our dept, or the company. but that's what happens when you rely on MS stuff for the entire system. we're 100% MS here, and getting more so all the time, because it's 1) easy for 45-yr old netadmins who are secretly afraid of computers and 2) they're scared of MS leaving them out in the cold.
sorry if this is a bit offtopic, but yeah, it blows.
well, no, i used an excel spreadsheet... it shows that we're now at 103% microsoft.
see? i told you.
if you are not an MSDN library subscriber, as I have yet to get this email and we have a library subscription.
-
-------------------------------------------------
My sig of choice is Marlboro
It's the availability of useful and well-marketed applications that drive the success of a given platform.
... ie ... without constantly failing. But I'll give M$ one thing ... they sure as hell have marketing down to an artform, now if only they would concentrate a wee bit more on quality they just might get it right.
:P
:P.
Operative word here is useful to the end user
Unfortunately, an application can be a buggy pile of garbage that runs on a rusty shitbox of an OS and still succeed: if it does something users need, and they can learn how to make it work well enough, then it can be sold.
That is the best example of M$'s business model I've seen in a long time
Insulting and alienating developers, companies and users who currently rely on Microsoft products is not a good way to make converts
M$ does a fine job of converting developers, companies, and users to Linux all by itself. It doesn't need our help at all
So, bash Microsoft all you like, until your head starts to bleed from banging it against a wall.
Gee thanks for permission but the only one I see bleeding lately is M$. Has anyone else noticed the increased demand for UNIX/Linux techies to convert NT to Linux O/S's lately? Interesting stuff.
Your energy is better spent developing and evangelizing [Like is that a new corporate buzz werd or something?] better solutions.
Well what the hay do you think the open-source community does exactly if it isn't developing better solutions? huh?
Not necessarily technically better, but better in the eyes of business customers, who often have concerns that might seem pretty alien to nerds,
And just what would those concerns be? Security? Reliability? Fair Market Price? Ownership (as opposed to subscriptions) of purchased and licensed software? Other? All these concerns are very real and have a everything to do with necessarily technically better. What else is there in the computer field? Oh wait a minute, maybe you were referring to the ongoing support of a prominent member of the "old boys club"? Sorry I'm a techie and I don't know dip shit about that kind of political b.s.
"Is this vendor large enough for us to sue if something goes wrong?"
Geezus and you defend this line of thinking? Who was it that said Capitalism was designed to implode". BOOM!
I don't see MS as evil. They are ruthless, arrogant, satisfied with nothing but complete victory, and unparticular about the means they use to achieve it"
Including putting out a series of products that are shamefully inadequate to business and home PC users alike. As mentioned above, M$ doesn't need any help from the open-source community (or anyone else) to bring it's evil empire crashing down. They're doing a fine job all by themselves.
I'd love to see someone give Microsoft a good fight.
Linux!
Sig borrowed from another slashdot groupie:Linux *is* user friendly *not* idiot-friendly!
It has been mentioned, but just to be clear, the MSDN documentation is still free, and requires no login. This is fact, and you can verify it by simply going to the MSDN website.
It seems highly unlikely that MS would start to charge for this documentation because Microsoft has always succeeded based on their ability to evangelize their products to developers and internal IT shops who then build applications that run on Windows.
The downloads that are now secured by Passport are typically things that you would normally have to pay money for if you were not a subscriber, or they are pre-release versions not made available to the general community. Obviously, if you are Microsoft, you have to secure this stuff somehow. May as well have a single logon for people that come to your domain. Hell, if you go to Oracle.com or Sun.com, you'll find similar systems. They just aren't called Passport. Would it make anybody feel better if MS gave it a different name?
By the way, nobody gives a rat's ass about operating systems or development tools except nerds. It's the availability of useful and well-marketed applications that drive the success of a given platform. Unfortunately, an application can be a buggy pile of garbage that runs on a rusty shitbox of an OS and still succeed: if it does something users need, and they can learn how to make it work well enough, then it can be sold.
The open source community would do well to stop this intellectual masturbation contest of trying to outdo each other's self-righteous indignation. Insulting and alienating developers, companies and users who currently rely on Microsoft products is not a good way to make converts. The message you send to your potential supporters and customers is "w3'r3 700 1337 4 u!" To which I say, "Fuck off and get a clue, nerd boy. You're completely missing the point."
So, bash Microsoft all you like, until your head starts to bleed from banging it against a wall. Your energy is better spent developing and evangelizing better solutions. Not necessarily technically better, but better in the eyes of business customers, who often have concerns that might seem pretty alien to nerds, like: "Is this vendor large enough for us to sue if something goes wrong?"
I don't see MS as evil. They are ruthless, arrogant, satisfied with nothing but complete victory, and unparticular about the means they use to achieve it. But they aren't eating babies or pushing elderly old ladies in front of oncoming traffic. (As far as we know.)
I'd love to see someone give Microsoft a good fight. I fear that the naive idealism and inbred nerd culture of the open-source movement will limit its success.
It seems the general tone here is: "Why bother? Why give them personal info?"
The problem here, I think, is not that microsoft is asking personal info of its costumers. The problem is that they force their customers to use their new products. Shouldn't we be able to choose?
They tout themselves as user-friendly, but force customers to learn new programs, websites, licensing schemes - I don't understand how it can mix. And I know it may sound typically anti-microsoft when I say this, but a customer-oriented company should never force their customers to do anything. Period.
-- sigs are like parking spaces - all the good ones are occupied
Dont we all just love Bill?
I am Jack's creative sig.
Or in order to login to Windows XP, we will need to have a VALID passport account. Which means bye bye to my h4x0r account, with which I used to get all the stuff not that freely given out by microsoft. Hopefully, I will still be able to use it for downloads. But I am getting off topic...Since everybody has to login with passport account, they would be able to track anyone, anywhere, through their ip number or registration info of the OS, etc. I wonder if CIA knows about this (or are they behind this). I am hoping that my uncertain source, is just that, a source of bs, or else we are in for some privacy problems. It is a good thing I am half-way transitioned into linux. (damn openGL does not work, mut be unsupported card)
Any tips on how to make a beowulf cluster?
Remember, when you are downloading MP3's, you are downloading communism!!!
badness 10000
It is not a bug, it is a feature!!
Lame, but appropriate.
Remember, when you are downloading MP3's, you are downloading communism!!!
badness 10000
I am so glad I decided back then to get off the Redmond treadmill before I'd really gotten on it. I feel sorry for the folks who've invested years of their lives in it.
But as for the reference tools, that IS all available free, without having to log on via passport, over the web.
What isn't told is that if you are a subscriber of MSDN, you already have given them your information when you sent them your check. As for employees having to divulge your information, big deal. I have to do that all the time. I give my company address and company phone number and nothing else.
Let's keep this in perspective please and not have "the sky is falling" rants just because the person doing it is microsoft. There is no effective difference between logging in via Passport or directly to their websites. They could share the information either way. Again, let's keep perspective. Try downloading something from Oracle, Sun, or Sybase. Each time I've downloaded from one of these companies they've wanted information.
This is Microsoft once again throwing their weight around. Remember when we used to get operating system cds? Microsoft said stop and now we get these darn restore disks the wipe the harddrive!
I'm sure being such a user friendly corp Microsoft will fill in your credit info as you buy MSDN subscriptions in your passport for you. I don't know about you, but I'm not inclined to trust the security of the Microsoft servers with my credit info.
I guess this means no more MSDN subscriptions for me. Oh well, the company looses more than I do. (I got my first year free, and was considering paying for the second year)
(Apple thinks different, creates the iMac)
Yahoo Finance--
Company: Apple
(Apple thinks different, creates the iMac)
Yahoo Finance--
Company: Apple
Surprise: 100%
Just create another sn thats all.
If you were smart, you wouldn't even care about being in MSDN.
I am not Slashdot's bitch!
"So, if you want to write code under windows, you must use Passport. Or not use MSDN. And lets face it, if you develop under windows, you must buy MSs tools, and you sure can't use those tools without their docs"
Oh please
I developed in Java under emacs this past year
and C++ as well
lazy bitch
I am not Slashdot's bitch!