Ellison, Gates and Jobs are probably three of the most brilliant and ruthless people on the planet, who also lucked into a set of extraordinary circumstances
And they were uniquely prepared to take full advantage of those circumstances in a way that you, I or any armchair pundits here on slashdot could ever hope to do. Your are deluded with your fucked up and wishful thinking, these guys and nobody else in their place, had the drive, vision and determination to succeed over many, many years. I suspect if they were on the "good" side you wouldn't have made that argument.
Fully prepared to be accused of being an "Apple hater" for not buying the Apple agenda, and being modded down by some people who probably are making use of not-so-above-board mod points. But hey, karma to burn.
Rolling on the floor soiling myself with laughter. You are joking right? I'm not taking sides (on this particular post) and I'm sure what you say goes on, but Apple hating comments regularly get modded up to 4 or 5. It most definitely happens both ways.
Correct me if I'm wrong but Microsoft were taken to court because they took advantage of their monopoly in one market (operating systems) to dominate in another (browsers), not because there is anything inherently wrong with bundling a browser.
Apple don't have a monopoly in any market that I know of - in fact quite the opposite, iOS and OS X are getting trounced by Android and Windows respectively. Not clearing them of evil, but you would have to look elsewhere.
However, the parent made a point using the tool of sarcasm, that there is a lot of animosity towards C out there. You see it really wasn't a mystery to him at all. On the other hand you made an interesting but tangential point about the intelligence of such people.
A bunch of militant tech heads with an axe to grind will just end up putting off more people than recruting - normal folk really don't give a shit. And honestly this whole discussion is so one sided that it beggars belief. As a fan of Apple I would like to hear some coherent arguments as to why their case was without merit, but nothing has been modded high enough for me to read that might sway my opinion.
Because if (and thats a big if) apple are in the right that Samsung has been taking a shortcut on R&D then the ban is the right thing to do. Again nobody has put forward any highly modded arguments other than ad hominem:
(twangs braces, clears throat, mocking voice) "rrrrrounded corners ladies and gentlemen" (cheers from the gallery)
You make a fairly reasonable, if slightly paranoid, argument, but then you go and spoil it all by saying something stupid like:
How the DoJ didn't launch an investigation into anti-competitive practices is a mystery to me. The "browser included in OS" investigation of Microsoft seems a pale shadow of the "you don't run software on iOS devices
Repeat after me: "Microsoft were targeted because they had a monopoly in the OS market. Apple don't have a monopoly in any market and so the two aren't comparable". Note that I'm fairly sure of my ground on that one because almost every day I see testimony from armchair Android analysts that android is kicking ass against iOS.
There are actually some people who don't spend all there time analysing the reputations of handset manufacturers and believe them when they say they will continue to provide support with updates.
Well you've admitted yourself that Motorola are abusing their FRAND patent. Whether a company is a dick or not doesn't matter, it shouldn't be motorolas decision to make. I'm not making the judgement either way that apple have harmed the market in this post, but I am making the point that Motorola are harming the market with their actions. That fact shouldn't be lost.
So are you saying that choosing to exercise your right to NOT license a patent is an immoral option? seems to me that if all patent holders were forced to license, then the big boys would operate as a cartel by pushing up license fees and therefore shut out any newcomers.
Whether apples patent portfolio is dubious or not has got nothing to do with the issue of the morality of how to wield a patent - but then reactionary apple haters such as yourself are incapable of seeing the difference.
Consumers are absolutely fixated on price, there are "race to the bottom" markets everywhere you turn. That there are so many cheap and shoddy goods in the world is precisely because customers choose to buy them over higher quality but more expensive ones. Companies like Apple succeed because there are a smaller number of wealthier customers who have the luxury of being able to ignore the price tag to a greater extent.
If todays companies start to raise their quality and prices then fine, some of them may succeed. But then there will be a whole bunch of companies that take their place so that the net result is no change at all. Consumers will see to that.
The trouble is that the ecosystem is barely profitable and perhaps prone to stalling longer term. By going it alone, Microsoft has given their verdict that the third party vendors aren't doing enough with the tools MS has put out there - I summarised that with the word "shit";) which I admit is not very analytical.
So my point is that even with all the energy Microsoft has put in to the ecosystem and the vendors still don't look like turning the ship in a more viable direction, then what chance would they have with Linux, where they wouldn't have anybody to lean on? Undoubtedly it will be fun to watch though.
Let me get this straight - if even Microsoft think the pc manufacturers are doing a shit job selling wintel, what makes you think they would fare better with Linux?
But I didn't give him credit for anything, I just commented on how fascinated everyone is with him. Btw although I'm a fan of apple I'm certainly no fanboy - my admiration stems from happy purchases rather than adopting them as my tech equivalent of a sports team.
That's what they said about Aristotle every time someone challenged some aspect of the great man's system. Maybe that's why it took 1800 years for the heliocentric model of the solar system, and the experimental basis of science, to gain any traction.
Well that was a bit weird, it's not as if Jobs has put forward any mathematical theories that may or may not be debunked. The parent made a comment about SJ popularity (or notoriety, whatever) and how people are fascinated by him and your comment is evidence of that. Yes I am a fan of Apple, but quite apart from that I don't see any other CEOs that capture the attention of anyone round here, do you?
Well, Steve Jobs called MobileMe and the MobileMe team a massive failure himself.
Well he certainly tore them a new one, which led to iCloud, which is the sum of all the lessons learned from that debacle - so in that regard iCloud it's the new and improved version of MobileMe. It's not as if Apple got out of the business of providing mobile syncing and software services.
I am NOT saying I agree with an armed response, just making an observation about what I see here spouted by the slashdotterati. But whilst I would fall short of advocating civil rebellion, I think the gradual erosion of freedom is more serious than you make out.
I would like to challenge this idea of patent troll anyway, that it is somehow immoral to only be involved in patent enforcement whilst not be responsible for bringing related products to market. Based on that definition, is it also immoral to have a separate department or subsidiary of a reputable parent company specifically for handling patents?
Or what about if you are an employee where who is only tasked with dealing with patents all day long - are you somehow an evil patent troll minion?
I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with abstracting out a concept, for example we prefer to deal in money rather than trading eggs and bags of flour with each other. The term patent troll seems to be thrown around a lot here on slashdot, yet I see a contradiction with what I believe is a community wholly comfortable in dealing with the abstract.
Personally I think the idea of an App store is a very welcome one. However there seems to be some disagreement here on slashdot about whether Apple invented something or whether the idea was ripe and everyone just skated to where the puck was.
From my own (admittedly biased) point of view it seems if Apple come up with a good idea then that idea was ripe for picking anyway, so nobody could be accused of copying. However if an idea turned out to be disastrous for humanity then it's entirely Apples fault that everyone copied them.
"They abused their position as an OS vendor by tweaking products to be less interoperable with their competitors' software. They abused their thus-gained monopoly position through all manner of anticompetitive practice. This resulted not only in a dearth of customer choice (necessary for a healthy marketplace) but also in actual negative financial impact to human beings."
Wait, are you talking about Microsoft or Apple here?
I'm pretty sure that iOS is being outsold by Android devices, ditto OS X versus windows, so I don't see how you could accuse Apple of having a monopoly (nothing wrong with that if they did). And lack of customer choice WTF? It's real easy to avoid Apple if that's your wish!
Wait, are you just looking to make a smart-assed quip?
Screw status codes. There should be a rifle pointed at the head of every legislator who votes on one of these sorts of measures.
Comments such as this help me to take the temperature of the slashdot community from time to time. It used to be that I'd see a lot of sneering comments against gun culture in the US, but maybe the American forefathers we're right that the citizens should have the right to arm themselves in the face of tyranny.
It's just odd that it took DRM to bring about this change in attitude in American slashdotters, if I've observed the trend correctly.
Whilst I agree with your sentiment, you are perpetuating the false definition of patent troll. Oracle have a genuine product to defend and so whilst they might be douche bags of the first order, they aren't patent trolls.
There is a certain culture that I hoped slashdot was immune to, one that I really, really hate. It seems acceptable to put forward arguments, no matter how ill-defended, in order to pander to your own particular bias. I can almost picture those who gave you all those mod points: "Ah something bad was said against Oracle, I'm gonna mod this guy up".
So I'm sorry the HP lawsuit is not awesome, they are just another bunch of "bad guys" - this "enemy of my enemy" slant is just bullshit.
In response to Twain, how will we ever transition away from being fools unless we practice speaking out, are willing to make mistakes and then learn from them? Pithy witticisms like this are all very well for a little amusement but I sometimes worry that people take them seriously.
Slashdot Mirror
Ellison, Gates and Jobs are probably three of the most brilliant and ruthless people on the planet, who also lucked into a set of extraordinary circumstances
And they were uniquely prepared to take full advantage of those circumstances in a way that you, I or any armchair pundits here on slashdot could ever hope to do. Your are deluded with your fucked up and wishful thinking, these guys and nobody else in their place, had the drive, vision and determination to succeed over many, many years. I suspect if they were on the "good" side you wouldn't have made that argument.
Fine but that was the point I was making. There may be a case for evil in areas such as this, but not browser bundling.
Fully prepared to be accused of being an "Apple hater" for not buying the Apple agenda, and being modded down by some people who probably are making use of not-so-above-board mod points. But hey, karma to burn.
Rolling on the floor soiling myself with laughter. You are joking right? I'm not taking sides (on this particular post) and I'm sure what you say goes on, but Apple hating comments regularly get modded up to 4 or 5. It most definitely happens both ways.
Apple don't have a monopoly in any market that I know of - in fact quite the opposite, iOS and OS X are getting trounced by Android and Windows respectively. Not clearing them of evil, but you would have to look elsewhere.
However, the parent made a point using the tool of sarcasm, that there is a lot of animosity towards C out there. You see it really wasn't a mystery to him at all. On the other hand you made an interesting but tangential point about the intelligence of such people.
Because if (and thats a big if) apple are in the right that Samsung has been taking a shortcut on R&D then the ban is the right thing to do. Again nobody has put forward any highly modded arguments other than ad hominem:
(twangs braces, clears throat, mocking voice) "rrrrrounded corners ladies and gentlemen" (cheers from the gallery)
How the DoJ didn't launch an investigation into anti-competitive practices is a mystery to me. The "browser included in OS" investigation of Microsoft seems a pale shadow of the "you don't run software on iOS devices
Repeat after me: "Microsoft were targeted because they had a monopoly in the OS market. Apple don't have a monopoly in any market and so the two aren't comparable". Note that I'm fairly sure of my ground on that one because almost every day I see testimony from armchair Android analysts that android is kicking ass against iOS.
that is known for not updating their firmware
By who? Is there an official list?
There are actually some people who don't spend all there time analysing the reputations of handset manufacturers and believe them when they say they will continue to provide support with updates.
Well you've admitted yourself that Motorola are abusing their FRAND patent. Whether a company is a dick or not doesn't matter, it shouldn't be motorolas decision to make. I'm not making the judgement either way that apple have harmed the market in this post, but I am making the point that Motorola are harming the market with their actions. That fact shouldn't be lost.
Whether apples patent portfolio is dubious or not has got nothing to do with the issue of the morality of how to wield a patent - but then reactionary apple haters such as yourself are incapable of seeing the difference.
If todays companies start to raise their quality and prices then fine, some of them may succeed. But then there will be a whole bunch of companies that take their place so that the net result is no change at all. Consumers will see to that.
Lose the fixation on price.
Are you talking to the customers or the vendors?
So my point is that even with all the energy Microsoft has put in to the ecosystem and the vendors still don't look like turning the ship in a more viable direction, then what chance would they have with Linux, where they wouldn't have anybody to lean on? Undoubtedly it will be fun to watch though.
Let me get this straight - if even Microsoft think the pc manufacturers are doing a shit job selling wintel, what makes you think they would fare better with Linux?
But I didn't give him credit for anything, I just commented on how fascinated everyone is with him. Btw although I'm a fan of apple I'm certainly no fanboy - my admiration stems from happy purchases rather than adopting them as my tech equivalent of a sports team.
That's what they said about Aristotle every time someone challenged some aspect of the great man's system. Maybe that's why it took 1800 years for the heliocentric model of the solar system, and the experimental basis of science, to gain any traction.
Well that was a bit weird, it's not as if Jobs has put forward any mathematical theories that may or may not be debunked. The parent made a comment about SJ popularity (or notoriety, whatever) and how people are fascinated by him and your comment is evidence of that. Yes I am a fan of Apple, but quite apart from that I don't see any other CEOs that capture the attention of anyone round here, do you?
Well, Steve Jobs called MobileMe and the MobileMe team a massive failure himself.
Well he certainly tore them a new one, which led to iCloud, which is the sum of all the lessons learned from that debacle - so in that regard iCloud it's the new and improved version of MobileMe. It's not as if Apple got out of the business of providing mobile syncing and software services.
I am NOT saying I agree with an armed response, just making an observation about what I see here spouted by the slashdotterati. But whilst I would fall short of advocating civil rebellion, I think the gradual erosion of freedom is more serious than you make out.
Or what about if you are an employee where who is only tasked with dealing with patents all day long - are you somehow an evil patent troll minion?
I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with abstracting out a concept, for example we prefer to deal in money rather than trading eggs and bags of flour with each other. The term patent troll seems to be thrown around a lot here on slashdot, yet I see a contradiction with what I believe is a community wholly comfortable in dealing with the abstract.
From my own (admittedly biased) point of view it seems if Apple come up with a good idea then that idea was ripe for picking anyway, so nobody could be accused of copying. However if an idea turned out to be disastrous for humanity then it's entirely Apples fault that everyone copied them.
thus-gained monopoly position
Popular sport this, asserting that Apple has a monopoly position, so for the lesser informed please remind us which market would that be in...
"They abused their position as an OS vendor by tweaking products to be less interoperable with their competitors' software. They abused their thus-gained monopoly position through all manner of anticompetitive practice. This resulted not only in a dearth of customer choice (necessary for a healthy marketplace) but also in actual negative financial impact to human beings."
Wait, are you talking about Microsoft or Apple here?
I'm pretty sure that iOS is being outsold by Android devices, ditto OS X versus windows, so I don't see how you could accuse Apple of having a monopoly (nothing wrong with that if they did). And lack of customer choice WTF? It's real easy to avoid Apple if that's your wish!
Wait, are you just looking to make a smart-assed quip?
Screw status codes. There should be a rifle pointed at the head of every legislator who votes on one of these sorts of measures.
Comments such as this help me to take the temperature of the slashdot community from time to time. It used to be that I'd see a lot of sneering comments against gun culture in the US, but maybe the American forefathers we're right that the citizens should have the right to arm themselves in the face of tyranny.
It's just odd that it took DRM to bring about this change in attitude in American slashdotters, if I've observed the trend correctly.
There is a certain culture that I hoped slashdot was immune to, one that I really, really hate. It seems acceptable to put forward arguments, no matter how ill-defended, in order to pander to your own particular bias. I can almost picture those who gave you all those mod points: "Ah something bad was said against Oracle, I'm gonna mod this guy up".
So I'm sorry the HP lawsuit is not awesome, they are just another bunch of "bad guys" - this "enemy of my enemy" slant is just bullshit.
In response to Twain, how will we ever transition away from being fools unless we practice speaking out, are willing to make mistakes and then learn from them? Pithy witticisms like this are all very well for a little amusement but I sometimes worry that people take them seriously.