So basically, we're not allowed to point out what we do well, even though everyone can point out all our failings?
Of course you are! Why shouldn't you?! I'm also thinking you guys are doing a great job. But it's not that I'm talking about. I'm talking about all this anti-this and that country on Slashdot (goes to both immature US bashers and Europe bashers)
Yes, this is equally wrong. I doubt I gloated at ESA's supremacy there. But I'm pretty sure there were some equally immature fellas there doing a similar thing.
First, you cut my quote. It should in its entirety say: "the by far most advanced spacecraft launched, being privately funded".
Also I'm afraid you recall wrong...
The B2 was equipped with: environmental sensors, dust sensors, oxidant sensors, UV sensors, pressure sensors, radiation sensors, temperature sensors, wind sensors, gas analysis equipment, stereo cams, microscope for inspecting soil and rocks, gamma-ray spectrometer to measure oxidation state in minerals, X-ray spectrometer to measure elemental composition of rocks and soil, rock corer/grinder, and even a self-burying mole with a soil collection device.
Note how many equipment that won't be found on either of the MER's. This isn't to brag, but to tell that this was indeed a loss for the world (since either NASA or ESA might have to do extra missions now to achieve the same result). Much in the same way as the MER's were a success for space exploration to the world.
We sure are, only some of us (Americans) are better at exploring other planets than others (Brits and all socialist Europeans in general). Face it schmucks, American ingenuity and know how backed by real capitalist efficiency and yes, freedom, have no equal on this planet.
Did anyone say otherwise? Did anyone say you suck? Stop acting so aggressively. You ARE the leading space exploring nation in the world. I, as a swede, really like the US for still pushing the frontier further for every mission.
I think the parent (and I) just don't see a reason for the same country to give sarcastic comments when this is all about science, not.. well, personal opinions in politics or whatever.
I can only agree. I'm feeling a great joy over the Spirit and was personally in the IRC chat with various JPL guys for the coming thriller with the Spirit touchdown. It was great. Now, what did I see afterwards? "Yeah, we did it!" "Woohoo, I can't wait for the images?"
Noo, some americans can't do that. Many went:
"USA 1 - ESA 0" (even if ESA barely funded Beagle, relatively speaking), "Take that, Beagle!", etc...
I must say I left the channel with a bitter aftertaste. I wasn't really angry, but sad how we had such a great time before and how happy I were for the USA, and then get this thrown in my face. And now, yet again, by certain immature Slashdot visitors. I'm still amazed that USA has landed a vehicle on another world (even if it has happened before), but I just can't find words for the feelings some people have against the ESA and can't really understand why. Does everything have to be a competition? This isn't the cold war, NASA guys has personally expressed their concerns about the Beagle and tried to contact it, the B2 funders are friendly people struggling hard to rescue it... It just makes me sad that some people feel so strongly against other parts of the world.
I thought Beagle 2 was funded by the ESA once, but actually they only funded a minor part of it. Major funding came from the UK alone and private funders. Mars Express was basically funded solely by the ESA and it was a success, so there's where your euros went.:-) They just took the opportunity to piggy-back the Beagle with the Mars Express, and this unique method was also shown to work flawlessly.
Yes, it did. They got signals indicated it descended through the atmosphere. Unfortunately, they don't exactly know what happened afterwards, if it was electronic malfunction, airbag problems, crater blocking signal, heat shield breaking apart, etc
So you're the single person on Earth knowing what actually happened to it and can exclude all other possibilities like a crater blocking its signal, airbags not deflating, electronics failing, etc.
No, it landed in a lake and was intended to land in a lake, not a small crater (blocking radio signals) that B2 is thought of having unintentionally landed in. But it's just one theory, and it doesn't even matter... It was never a competition anyway.
NASA's Spirit actually sent telemetry tones back to the Odyssey orbiter as it started decending through the martian atmosphere. They meant things like:
- "I have entered atmosphere and everything seems to be in order" - "I have started to bounce on the martian surface" - "I have stopped bouncing on the surface and is still alive" etc...
It might still not be able to easily pinpoint where it crashed if it had done so, but it would at least work like a primitive "black box" doing the best it can to tell what went wrong. Since this is obviously also good to know to learn from mistakes.:-)
The currently landed rover is probably way too far from the Beagle. It can only move for around 100 m / day and has 90 days of expected life time. In time, enough dust will get on its solar panels so it can't get enough power from the sun.
And B2 doesn't need to be just flipped over. Maybe the airbags didn't work properly and it's still very well encapsulated in loads of airbags that never deflated? Maybe it just formed a small crater on Mars?
Too many maybe's for NASA to even think about trying to rescue it (a high chance they'll just find some debris or it's failing so badly that it's unusable even if flipped). I'd rather instead be sure that NASA completes their current missions instead of exchanging a mission for a Beagle rescue mission which is likely to be unsuccessful. Yeah, they probably need to exchange a mission too since the space funding is so low.
First of all, I am also sad to hear these news. Although the Beagle 2 wasn't primarly an ESA project, so the ESA itself should hopefully not be hurt too much, it is still a very unfortunate loss with all the high tech equipment on the B2, and a loss hurting particulary much for the UK. If successful, it could have broken new ground as the by far most advanced spacecraft launched, being partially privately funded.
However, the lesson I think should be learnt is that in space, one often needs to be lucky for success as many factors plays a role. Even with a perfect craft, especially if you're trying to land on another planet. And if you are pushing this much needed luck to the extremes with such major time constraints, that you don't even have time to perform further tests on a failing airbag mechanism, fires a multi-million dollar craft into outer space while crossing your fingers and hoping it will work when landing on Mars, you will need an ENORMOUS amount of luck for success.
I think it was unfortunately a much higher chance of failure for the Beagle 2 than a success because of the time and budget constraints.
You're just linking to a document describing equivalents of US copyright laws that might make their way to Europe, like DMCA and copyrights. It wasn't this kind of freedom that your parent discussed, and has nothing to do with "social" freedom (i.e. you can't do this or that because everyone can be a potential terrorist at this place).
What if our universe is simply matter consumed by a black hole? I wonder if that could be possible. I.e. the big bang as we know it was something that collapsed and started violently sucking in a whole lot of matter. That would obviously mean that black holes in our universe would contain more or less large universes as well.
... and what's the alternative way to do this without using the mouse? You of course need a quicker way than to move around stuff manually on your screen with a mouse. In Windows, I can open files by pressing Ctrl+O, Shift+Tab (to give the list control in the dialog focus), Up/Down arrow to get the file I want, then Enter to open it.
Don't make GUI's imprison the user in how it can communicate with the applications. I think the entire OS should be accessible via keyboard shortcuts. Windows is actually pretty close, if not there already. Can't really think of something you can't access via the keyboard.
Hmm, yes, I wonder how well you can see the two moons of Mars in the sky? Are they too small? Hmm, I can't recall a shot of even one moon from Mars...
The sun wouldn't be that much smaller from Mars I think, but it would be nice if they take a sun shot (assuming they're successful in landing) now when they're supposed to go to one of Jupiter's moons.
That could be an nice sight, even if the mission on its own could be very interesting. Sure, it's freezing cold when you go all the way to Jupiter, *but* we also know very well that Io have violent volcanic activity and I doubt those are very freezing.:-) Who knows if some geological activity heats up the environment beneath the ice of a jovian moon enough to harbor life? That's why life out there hasn't been ruled out yet. There could even be far higher chances for life there than on Mars.
On my Windows box, it regularly uses around 300-350 MB RAM. I have 512 MB and it's usable, although there are some heavy swap sessions here too. Especially if you look straight down on the ground in the 3D view, for some reason. I guess 1 GB to run *smoothly*, but 512 MB seems OK and enough to enjoy the package if you can accept a bit of swapping at irregular times.
What if there isn't water? I'm not sure what you're referring to, but the "ice" on the polar caps is just frozen carbon dioxe.
They could have atleast landed near that thing that looks like a giant face.
Yeah, and we would have seen some hills/mountains. We have also seen those before. Only the actual look is special, but know what, only the special look can be seen from above. So the entire point would be lost if *landing* next to the foot of a seemingly regular mountain. They would have used a billion dollars to land next to a site that looks cool from space and they hadn't anything special to do at.
The reason they landed where they did is because of scientific reasons -- exploring the special soil and minerals that can be found in what they think could be a former lake. And I'd surely prefer an organization using their money to get something done instead of giving an unpleased public something to look at, think "hey, that's kinda cool" about, and forget about in 10 minutes.
seriously though I'm all for the space program, but jeez something a little more interesting please...
Like what? Why don't you trolls ever offer constructive criticism? Oh wait, that's because you wouldn't be a troll then... Have you any idea how childish you're sounding?
Anyway... There's only so much with the images you can do with images that resemble those of a desert. NASA has so far given us 3D stereo images, color images of previosly unseen resolution from a craft landing on another planet, 360 degree panoramas, and will soon (tomorrow) release data for the Maestro software so we can drive around on Mars ourselves. They will soon start driving around and analyzing the minerals found to hopefully determine Mars' former climate, and know more about its geology.
Slashdot Mirror
So basically, we're not allowed to point out what we do well, even though everyone can point out all our failings?
Of course you are! Why shouldn't you?! I'm also thinking you guys are doing a great job. But it's not that I'm talking about. I'm talking about all this anti-this and that country on Slashdot (goes to both immature US bashers and Europe bashers)
And also, what's wrong with competition?
Well, competition among geeks on Slashdot gets a bit weird when NASA and ESA are cooperating.
Yes, this is equally wrong. I doubt I gloated at ESA's supremacy there. But I'm pretty sure there were some equally immature fellas there doing a similar thing.
Correction: In last sentence, change "MER's" to "MER" since we don't know how the other will do yet. :) Can hope for the best though!
First, you cut my quote. It should in its entirety say: "the by far most advanced spacecraft launched, being privately funded".
Also I'm afraid you recall wrong...
The B2 was equipped with: environmental sensors, dust sensors, oxidant sensors, UV sensors, pressure sensors, radiation sensors, temperature sensors, wind sensors, gas analysis equipment, stereo cams, microscope for inspecting soil and rocks, gamma-ray spectrometer to measure oxidation state in minerals, X-ray spectrometer to measure elemental composition of rocks and soil, rock corer/grinder, and even a self-burying mole with a soil collection device.
Note how many equipment that won't be found on either of the MER's. This isn't to brag, but to tell that this was indeed a loss for the world (since either NASA or ESA might have to do extra missions now to achieve the same result). Much in the same way as the MER's were a success for space exploration to the world.
We sure are, only some of us (Americans) are better at exploring other planets than others (Brits and all socialist Europeans in general). Face it schmucks, American ingenuity and know how backed by real capitalist efficiency and yes, freedom, have no equal on this planet.
.. well, personal opinions in politics or whatever.
Did anyone say otherwise? Did anyone say you suck? Stop acting so aggressively. You ARE the leading space exploring nation in the world. I, as a swede, really like the US for still pushing the frontier further for every mission.
I think the parent (and I) just don't see a reason for the same country to give sarcastic comments when this is all about science, not
Actually that would be nationalism.
Not even close. Nationalism is being proud over your country. Not spitting at other countries.
I can only agree. I'm feeling a great joy over the Spirit and was personally in the IRC chat with various JPL guys for the coming thriller with the Spirit touchdown. It was great. Now, what did I see afterwards? "Yeah, we did it!" "Woohoo, I can't wait for the images?"
Noo, some americans can't do that. Many went:
"USA 1 - ESA 0" (even if ESA barely funded Beagle, relatively speaking), "Take that, Beagle!", etc...
I must say I left the channel with a bitter aftertaste. I wasn't really angry, but sad how we had such a great time before and how happy I were for the USA, and then get this thrown in my face. And now, yet again, by certain immature Slashdot visitors. I'm still amazed that USA has landed a vehicle on another world (even if it has happened before), but I just can't find words for the feelings some people have against the ESA and can't really understand why. Does everything have to be a competition? This isn't the cold war, NASA guys has personally expressed their concerns about the Beagle and tried to contact it, the B2 funders are friendly people struggling hard to rescue it... It just makes me sad that some people feel so strongly against other parts of the world.
I thought Beagle 2 was funded by the ESA once, but actually they only funded a minor part of it. Major funding came from the UK alone and private funders. Mars Express was basically funded solely by the ESA and it was a success, so there's where your euros went. :-) They just took the opportunity to piggy-back the Beagle with the Mars Express, and this unique method was also shown to work flawlessly.
Yes, it did. They got signals indicated it descended through the atmosphere. Unfortunately, they don't exactly know what happened afterwards, if it was electronic malfunction, airbag problems, crater blocking signal, heat shield breaking apart, etc
No, the Beagle *made* a crater. Big difference. :P
:-P
So you're the single person on Earth knowing what actually happened to it and can exclude all other possibilities like a crater blocking its signal, airbags not deflating, electronics failing, etc.
Hey, that's good to know.
So did Spirit.
No, it landed in a lake and was intended to land in a lake, not a small crater (blocking radio signals) that B2 is thought of having unintentionally landed in. But it's just one theory, and it doesn't even matter... It was never a competition anyway.
NASA's Spirit actually sent telemetry tones back to the Odyssey orbiter as it started decending through the martian atmosphere. They meant things like:
:-)
- "I have entered atmosphere and everything seems to be in order"
- "I have started to bounce on the martian surface"
- "I have stopped bouncing on the surface and is still alive"
etc...
It might still not be able to easily pinpoint where it crashed if it had done so, but it would at least work like a primitive "black box" doing the best it can to tell what went wrong. Since this is obviously also good to know to learn from mistakes.
Read more here.
The currently landed rover is probably way too far from the Beagle. It can only move for around 100 m / day and has 90 days of expected life time. In time, enough dust will get on its solar panels so it can't get enough power from the sun.
And B2 doesn't need to be just flipped over. Maybe the airbags didn't work properly and it's still very well encapsulated in loads of airbags that never deflated? Maybe it just formed a small crater on Mars?
Too many maybe's for NASA to even think about trying to rescue it (a high chance they'll just find some debris or it's failing so badly that it's unusable even if flipped). I'd rather instead be sure that NASA completes their current missions instead of exchanging a mission for a Beagle rescue mission which is likely to be unsuccessful. Yeah, they probably need to exchange a mission too since the space funding is so low.
First of all, I am also sad to hear these news. Although the Beagle 2 wasn't primarly an ESA project, so the ESA itself should hopefully not be hurt too much, it is still a very unfortunate loss with all the high tech equipment on the B2, and a loss hurting particulary much for the UK. If successful, it could have broken new ground as the by far most advanced spacecraft launched, being partially privately funded.
However, the lesson I think should be learnt is that in space, one often needs to be lucky for success as many factors plays a role. Even with a perfect craft, especially if you're trying to land on another planet. And if you are pushing this much needed luck to the extremes with such major time constraints, that you don't even have time to perform further tests on a failing airbag mechanism, fires a multi-million dollar craft into outer space while crossing your fingers and hoping it will work when landing on Mars, you will need an ENORMOUS amount of luck for success.
I think it was unfortunately a much higher chance of failure for the Beagle 2 than a success because of the time and budget constraints.
You're just linking to a document describing equivalents of US copyright laws that might make their way to Europe, like DMCA and copyrights. It wasn't this kind of freedom that your parent discussed, and has nothing to do with "social" freedom (i.e. you can't do this or that because everyone can be a potential terrorist at this place).
What if our universe is simply matter consumed by a black hole? I wonder if that could be possible. I.e. the big bang as we know it was something that collapsed and started violently sucking in a whole lot of matter. That would obviously mean that black holes in our universe would contain more or less large universes as well.
Haha, yes, my thought too. Hmm, I think I'll take octavian's screenshot and see if it's actually taken on earth. :-)
... and what's the alternative way to do this without using the mouse? You of course need a quicker way than to move around stuff manually on your screen with a mouse. In Windows, I can open files by pressing Ctrl+O, Shift+Tab (to give the list control in the dialog focus), Up/Down arrow to get the file I want, then Enter to open it.
Don't make GUI's imprison the user in how it can communicate with the applications. I think the entire OS should be accessible via keyboard shortcuts. Windows is actually pretty close, if not there already. Can't really think of something you can't access via the keyboard.
They are alien rocks. :-)
:-) Who knows if some geological activity heats up the environment beneath the ice of a jovian moon enough to harbor life? That's why life out there hasn't been ruled out yet. There could even be far higher chances for life there than on Mars.
... :-P
Hmm, yes, I wonder how well you can see the two moons of Mars in the sky? Are they too small? Hmm, I can't recall a shot of even one moon from Mars...
The sun wouldn't be that much smaller from Mars I think, but it would be nice if they take a sun shot (assuming they're successful in landing) now when they're supposed to go to one of Jupiter's moons.
That could be an nice sight, even if the mission on its own could be very interesting. Sure, it's freezing cold when you go all the way to Jupiter, *but* we also know very well that Io have violent volcanic activity and I doubt those are very freezing.
OK, now I'm rambling on again
Maybe it's just a watermark those shareware proggies use to add, you know... I bet they haven't registered it yet.
This landing was indeed staged!
Look at a picture from my back yard. Now compare to a released image. Sure, nothing similar there, NASA!
I unfortunately think that's normal.
On my Windows box, it regularly uses around 300-350 MB RAM. I have 512 MB and it's usable, although there are some heavy swap sessions here too. Especially if you look straight down on the ground in the 3D view, for some reason. I guess 1 GB to run *smoothly*, but 512 MB seems OK and enough to enjoy the package if you can accept a bit of swapping at irregular times.
A picture of water would have been great.
What if there isn't water? I'm not sure what you're referring to, but the "ice" on the polar caps is just frozen carbon dioxe.
They could have atleast landed near that thing that looks like a giant face.
Yeah, and we would have seen some hills/mountains. We have also seen those before. Only the actual look is special, but know what, only the special look can be seen from above. So the entire point would be lost if *landing* next to the foot of a seemingly regular mountain. They would have used a billion dollars to land next to a site that looks cool from space and they hadn't anything special to do at.
The reason they landed where they did is because of scientific reasons -- exploring the special soil and minerals that can be found in what they think could be a former lake. And I'd surely prefer an organization using their money to get something done instead of giving an unpleased public something to look at, think "hey, that's kinda cool" about, and forget about in 10 minutes.
seriously though I'm all for the space program, but jeez something a little more interesting please...
Like what? Why don't you trolls ever offer constructive criticism? Oh wait, that's because you wouldn't be a troll then... Have you any idea how childish you're sounding?
Anyway... There's only so much with the images you can do with images that resemble those of a desert. NASA has so far given us 3D stereo images, color images of previosly unseen resolution from a craft landing on another planet, 360 degree panoramas, and will soon (tomorrow) release data for the Maestro software so we can drive around on Mars ourselves. They will soon start driving around and analyzing the minerals found to hopefully determine Mars' former climate, and know more about its geology.
What exactly do you want to see?