Thanks for the explanation. Seems to me that an H1B1 could basically never be justified under any circumstances then. If you offered 1 million bucks per year to be a urine tester, people would line up. No job that actually has people working in it already (the programmers in the US exist, they are mostly employed though), could not be filled by offering some level of a higher wage.
The official name was changed. The implementation in both the software and the marketing materials is extremely slow to catch up though. Source: I work closely with esri on the engineering and business side.
PS: Arcserver is now Arcgis for Server, and Arcgis Online is just called ArcGIS now (they are trying to push the "platform" thing)
99% of the criticism of node here is boiling down to "its a dynamic language and dynamic languages suck". Everyone gets an opinion, but clearly dynamically typed languages can be used to build large things, because they actually have been used in many many cases. As someone who has a production node product used by enterprises everyday, most of the people on this thread sound like they have never actually used node before, and the criticisms reflect a knowledge of js from 1998. Also, every language has its own ecosystem and idioms. I used to be a.Net guy. If I went in expecting a package manager like npm, I would think that the.Net ecosystem was horrible, because Nuget does not come close. However, I would be ignoring the fact that most.Net projects are off of Nuget and the expectation is to download the dlls from somewhere.
Although I should not get into a huge flamewar about dynamics languages, I would like to point one thing out. Although we do not get compile time checking, IME the adoption of modern best practices for testing in static enterprise shops is almost non-existent. In the modern dynamic world (Rails and node.js where my personal experience lies), it is nearly universal to one degree or another. To each his own, but I would be hesitant to put so much trust in my compiler...
Hardly. I just hired someone an hour ago who had a BA in Religious Studies and Russian. Why? Because he is a competent coder who can demonstrate his competence through actual code. A CS Masters is practically a code smell for me at this point.
And here class is a fine specimen of a C++ hipster. They exhibit all of the hipster traits in the purest of forms. Note the perfect disdain for the new. Only "vintage" languages will suffice. Hand writing binary trees in assembly is a job requirement for their secretaries, and "Web Sites" are for nothing but listing plain text pages of endangered plants in the state of New Mexico.
Seriously though, I would rather code CRUD apps in Brainf**k all day than to be involved in a community with this sort of attitude. Say what you will about the utility of the tools above, but they have made unprecedented gains in the diversity of the programming community. They make an effort at teaching new people how to build things. I do not like or use PHP, but I am not about to go bashing someone else's tool, especially when it helped build the majority of the modern web. I find it especially interesting that the AC (astoundingly modded informative) does not list his own stack. No stack is perfect.
Can you blame us? When I went to google it (I happen to have heard of it from an older coworker the other day, but wanted to learn more and try it out), the only reference I get is "Mumps (epidemic parotitis) is a viral disease of the human species, caused by the mumps virus." Documentation is often the differentiating factor for me when choosing a new technology. Also, Ruby, PHP, or Python are hot in the startup world, but are not exactly brand new either.
Sarcasm? All three are perfectly capable tools with strong tract records of success for their intended use cases (especially PHP and Ruby; node is still in the process of proving itself). Also, what sort of alternatives are there in the proprietary world for web development? ASP.Net? Cold Fusion? Sorry if this is a "whoosh".
I live in a coastal area on the east coast. Every time a hurricane rolls through, it makes a lot of people very wealthy. Construction companies, glass manufacturers, insurance companies (they pay out in this instance, but sales go through the roof when a hurricane reminds everyone to increase their coverage). The tech industry has these pockets too if you know where to look. If a company lays off a huge percentage of their staff, it is pretty much guaranteed to cause a shitstorm and they will be forced to bring in consultants to keep things operational. Consultants can justify charging based on value instead of time, which in this situation allows for the "F you price". Being the guy who can go in an rescue an essential, but failing, product can be extremely profitable.
how can anyone in good faith ever recommend a career in technology in the United States?
job rate at the school I went to 6 months out:
CS - 100%
MBA - 43%
average pay:
CS - 81k
MBA 37k
This is not even a fair comparison, since an MBA takes 2-3 years longer and 10s of thousands more dollars. Going into tech when I graduated at the height of the recession is one of the best decisions I have ever made. The demand for Philosophers is still not back up yet. Maybe I'll switch back to what I studied when it is. Also, CS majors currently clobber Engineering, lawyers, and nurses as far as employment rates for new grads. If the gigs dry up in ten years, I will have made a million dollars in that time frame: plenty to comfortably switch careers to something that is doing better.
They are fully mature by ~25. The age we are talking about here is 29, so this does not really apply. Most people in their early twenties are either in school or in an internship. A 29 yo dev typically has 10+ years of programming experience as well, and are well on their way to 10,000 hours of professional experience. They are not exactly complete noobs. Also, a 60 yo probably would not want to have a biological show down on raw brain function. They have their own degradation to deal with. Of course, raw brain function is not what makes a good developer in the least, so it hardly matters.
As a mid 20s dev who writes software for C-level execs, I write everything with 60 year olds in mind, and use them almost exclusively for testing. They cannot see small text, they cannot use precise sliders, they use iPads for all sorts of tasks that you would not expect, they cannot click small buttons, they do not recognize UI idioms in the same ways that we do, if you put a button on a screen they will click it when it says "delete all records" because they were curious what it did and were surprised when it deleted all their records.
Some of us 20 year olds still have some common sense, and code/test for markets where there is money to be made.
Not if they phrase it "Seeking Development Lead; Salary: 45k". Of course, no one in their 40s is going to take that job, but I do not think it qualifies as active discrimination.
For somebody doing entry level IT work, I really fail to see why someone would need 20 years of experience. Devs are a whole different story, and I have seen much less age monoculture there. Honestly, I am about 5 years in and have always been the youngest dev by at least 10 years anywhere I have been so far. Fine by me, but I think it is a bit scary that we lost about 5 years of college grads since the recession. The tech industry should be grateful they were still able to keep the gears moving at all with new hires during the recession. Other fields will have 10 solid years of rookies clawing over the scraps and screwing up systems. Having a flow of talent at all skill levels is important to any technical field.
..Or even go out on your own. With companies providing less and less benefits and the need for automation increasing, freelancing is a safer and safer bet everyday. Hell, it may have always been since you diversify your risk across many clients.
Slashdot Mirror
...he played the character of a Dr...
Dr who? (Could not resist)
Thanks for the explanation. Seems to me that an H1B1 could basically never be justified under any circumstances then. If you offered 1 million bucks per year to be a urine tester, people would line up. No job that actually has people working in it already (the programmers in the US exist, they are mostly employed though), could not be filled by offering some level of a higher wage.
What is the bar for this? Obviously, at some price you can always hire someone.
The official name was changed. The implementation in both the software and the marketing materials is extremely slow to catch up though. Source: I work closely with esri on the engineering and business side.
PS: Arcserver is now Arcgis for Server, and Arcgis Online is just called ArcGIS now (they are trying to push the "platform" thing)
Arcmap is the unofficial name for ESRI's flagship product ArcGIS Desktop.
99% of the criticism of node here is boiling down to "its a dynamic language and dynamic languages suck". Everyone gets an opinion, but clearly dynamically typed languages can be used to build large things, because they actually have been used in many many cases. As someone who has a production node product used by enterprises everyday, most of the people on this thread sound like they have never actually used node before, and the criticisms reflect a knowledge of js from 1998. Also, every language has its own ecosystem and idioms. I used to be a .Net guy. If I went in expecting a package manager like npm, I would think that the .Net ecosystem was horrible, because Nuget does not come close. However, I would be ignoring the fact that most .Net projects are off of Nuget and the expectation is to download the dlls from somewhere.
Although I should not get into a huge flamewar about dynamics languages, I would like to point one thing out. Although we do not get compile time checking, IME the adoption of modern best practices for testing in static enterprise shops is almost non-existent. In the modern dynamic world (Rails and node.js where my personal experience lies), it is nearly universal to one degree or another. To each his own, but I would be hesitant to put so much trust in my compiler...
... and then he suggested C as a better alternative. Hmm, I think we might just have someone who does not know how to write javascript properly.
Of course, now there's a movement to "structure" Mongo. Yuk yuk yuk
As a mongo user, this trend had me scratching my head as well.
You can find anything if you pay the market price.
Need masters degree as a min for a level 1 job
Hardly. I just hired someone an hour ago who had a BA in Religious Studies and Russian. Why? Because he is a competent coder who can demonstrate his competence through actual code. A CS Masters is practically a code smell for me at this point.
Not in the US. A 29 yo dev should be 60-120k pretty much anywhere in the country.
And here class is a fine specimen of a C++ hipster. They exhibit all of the hipster traits in the purest of forms. Note the perfect disdain for the new. Only "vintage" languages will suffice. Hand writing binary trees in assembly is a job requirement for their secretaries, and "Web Sites" are for nothing but listing plain text pages of endangered plants in the state of New Mexico.
Seriously though, I would rather code CRUD apps in Brainf**k all day than to be involved in a community with this sort of attitude. Say what you will about the utility of the tools above, but they have made unprecedented gains in the diversity of the programming community. They make an effort at teaching new people how to build things. I do not like or use PHP, but I am not about to go bashing someone else's tool, especially when it helped build the majority of the modern web. I find it especially interesting that the AC (astoundingly modded informative) does not list his own stack. No stack is perfect.
Can you blame us? When I went to google it (I happen to have heard of it from an older coworker the other day, but wanted to learn more and try it out), the only reference I get is "Mumps (epidemic parotitis) is a viral disease of the human species, caused by the mumps virus." Documentation is often the differentiating factor for me when choosing a new technology. Also, Ruby, PHP, or Python are hot in the startup world, but are not exactly brand new either.
NodeJS, PHP, Ruby
Sarcasm? All three are perfectly capable tools with strong tract records of success for their intended use cases (especially PHP and Ruby; node is still in the process of proving itself). Also, what sort of alternatives are there in the proprietary world for web development? ASP.Net? Cold Fusion? Sorry if this is a "whoosh".
Us 20 somethings are just trying to make things fair. jk, obviously.
I live in a coastal area on the east coast. Every time a hurricane rolls through, it makes a lot of people very wealthy. Construction companies, glass manufacturers, insurance companies (they pay out in this instance, but sales go through the roof when a hurricane reminds everyone to increase their coverage). The tech industry has these pockets too if you know where to look. If a company lays off a huge percentage of their staff, it is pretty much guaranteed to cause a shitstorm and they will be forced to bring in consultants to keep things operational. Consultants can justify charging based on value instead of time, which in this situation allows for the "F you price". Being the guy who can go in an rescue an essential, but failing, product can be extremely profitable.
The Civil Engineering job market has been pretty brutal over the past few years.
how can anyone in good faith ever recommend a career in technology in the United States?
job rate at the school I went to 6 months out:
CS - 100%
MBA - 43%
average pay:
CS - 81k
MBA 37k
This is not even a fair comparison, since an MBA takes 2-3 years longer and 10s of thousands more dollars. Going into tech when I graduated at the height of the recession is one of the best decisions I have ever made. The demand for Philosophers is still not back up yet. Maybe I'll switch back to what I studied when it is. Also, CS majors currently clobber Engineering, lawyers, and nurses as far as employment rates for new grads. If the gigs dry up in ten years, I will have made a million dollars in that time frame: plenty to comfortably switch careers to something that is doing better.
As Winston Churchill once said, "Chrome is the shittiest of all the browsers, except for all of the others I have tried."
They are fully mature by ~25. The age we are talking about here is 29, so this does not really apply. Most people in their early twenties are either in school or in an internship. A 29 yo dev typically has 10+ years of programming experience as well, and are well on their way to 10,000 hours of professional experience. They are not exactly complete noobs. Also, a 60 yo probably would not want to have a biological show down on raw brain function. They have their own degradation to deal with. Of course, raw brain function is not what makes a good developer in the least, so it hardly matters.
As a mid 20s dev who writes software for C-level execs, I write everything with 60 year olds in mind, and use them almost exclusively for testing. They cannot see small text, they cannot use precise sliders, they use iPads for all sorts of tasks that you would not expect, they cannot click small buttons, they do not recognize UI idioms in the same ways that we do, if you put a button on a screen they will click it when it says "delete all records" because they were curious what it did and were surprised when it deleted all their records.
Some of us 20 year olds still have some common sense, and code/test for markets where there is money to be made.
Not if they phrase it "Seeking Development Lead; Salary: 45k". Of course, no one in their 40s is going to take that job, but I do not think it qualifies as active discrimination.
For somebody doing entry level IT work, I really fail to see why someone would need 20 years of experience. Devs are a whole different story, and I have seen much less age monoculture there. Honestly, I am about 5 years in and have always been the youngest dev by at least 10 years anywhere I have been so far. Fine by me, but I think it is a bit scary that we lost about 5 years of college grads since the recession. The tech industry should be grateful they were still able to keep the gears moving at all with new hires during the recession. Other fields will have 10 solid years of rookies clawing over the scraps and screwing up systems. Having a flow of talent at all skill levels is important to any technical field.
Also, as a Python dev, I can say without a doubt that Python has a pretty neck-beardy community.
..Or even go out on your own. With companies providing less and less benefits and the need for automation increasing, freelancing is a safer and safer bet everyday. Hell, it may have always been since you diversify your risk across many clients.