that's the earliest article i could find. the chinese REACTION to a falungong protest.
it isn't a case of "oh... there are falungong members in china practicing their martial arts like the other 500 million chinese who practice their martial arts -- pricately or in small groups --. we'd better strike this one down because the name sounds funny, don't you think? "
it was the falungong protesting in beijing that caused this. what sort of "purely" religios movement has protest as part of their practice?
or as a "martial arts" school as they once called themselves.
it isn't an issue of whether they're "ready" to do this or that. all people are fallible. chinese gov't too. but they have good intentions (in my opinion). i think most outside religions don't. so they will fool people just as the muslims get fooled and the christians get fooled. but those groups don't have the life of millions on their hands. (though the crusades is a better example of what would happen in china if the most charismatic person was allowed to rule.. like an imbicile like bush... would wreak havoc in china -- they don't have the stability to risk that)
it also speaks volumes that the guy, and the judges, got SO much criticism that the removal got stayed...
as for china -- if they had some open, free gov't it would become like china of the warload era. or of the era where europe played them like pawns and many died. now, with the population, many millions more would die.
like argentina. we prop em' up then refuse to help when "democracy" fails to help them...
wo de peng you -- finally, someone who speaks some chinese (hopefully more than "wo do peng you," but "peng you" is a VERY important concept in china, like "guan xi")
i wouldn't dare say they have "excessive freedom"
they need more, agreed
but not now. allow too much freedom now and it will be a time like the 3 kingdoms and warlord era.
or we'll get a new "open door" era. i think you'll agree that was a terrible time in china. (read some luxun -- he paints the picture of chinese people at the time well)
and again -- i don't know if you live in china -- but there are plenty of small religious get-togethers. there are temples. it's all okay as long as it stays small-scale. so just follow that rule.
the chinese gov't has been opening up quickly over the past decade. let it open itself.
evolution is better than revolution -- the effects are much more long lasting.
maybe you'll be the one person to know what "dalutong" means -- "zhongguotong" was already taken, i think... otherwise i'd have used that.
no. i would do anything to help the chinese people. toppling this government, or irritating them, doesn't help the chinese people.
freedom of religion? i don't support it in china, at least for now. religion (from foreign entities) has done terrible things to china in the past
that's why they only have freedom of religion for domestic religions
i've said this in another post, but falungong is just a political extention of the qigong practice. that's been practiced in china for thousands of years. the chinese government never jailed anyone for practicing that. when i lived there i saw people practice qigong everynight in the public parks. freely.
it's only when the religion is run by some kook in NYC that it is bad for the chinese people (by trying to overthrow irresponsibly the chinese government)
so, no, i don't support foreign religions in china. i don't support dependance on western markets. and i have a little idea that president jiang is only allowing foreign investors in until the domestic economy is strong enough that it can support itself. then china will have serious clout. then we'll wish that we'd been more constructive in our criticizms...
that's why my goal in life is to do education reform in china so it can be a GOOD super power when it gets that title (in 30-50 years in my opinion. i have to act fast:))
helping the chinese people is about mutual respect. when we have that... then criticisms can be constructive. but we don't have that, so the criticisms aren't constructive.
oh yeah.... and if you're arab and you criticize the american public... say hey to your new title: enemy combatant.
extrapolate? Will I (irish american) be included in the future?
and i believe it's our FBI who's trying to get the records of what I buy from barnes and nobel. (the chinese government doesn't monitor what you buy...they just restrict what's avaliable publically:))
There is a big difference between china and america. i don't kid myself -- china's no free state. but i agree with that. they need it to keep their people alive. (read some of my other comments if you want to see a more lengthy explaination)
but i've felt the oppression of american society. but that's to a lesser extent then some feel it. like the brave soul who contested the "under god" part of the pledge.
notice that china's changed since mao was around. yes. millions died because of poor political practices. but they've managed to get a good rate of growth in openness balanced with population and agricultural control.
wait 20 years. it will be a different nation. wait 50 and it will be the most free nation in the world. mark my words.
wrong. falungong is pretty much qigong with some political crap attached. qigong's been a VERY popular practice since before china was a state. no one ever got criticized for practicing that. when i lived there (left in 1999) people would do their qigong practices every night in the public parks. no problem. gov't didn't care. it only cares that falungong is run by an obviously anti-chinese leader in NYC. if he was a true religious leader he'd just tell his followers in china to practice the religion privately instead of telling them to organize en-mass to embarrass the gov't.
it's just qigong with political add-ons. get rid of the political part and it's totally OKAY in the gov't's eyes.
cruelworld wrote: The movements ONLY political agenda is the right to exist in peace. If you practice FG at home and your neighbors find out about then you'll end up in jail. You see the right to keep quite and make it a personal spiritual movement was taken away from them.
there is religious freedom in china... as long as the religion is domestic. this is because of the hell that other religions have brought to china in centuries past.
if this was purely religious and they didn't have mass get-togethers in public areas then there would be no issue. in china qigong (more like a way of life than a religion) is practiced widely. every night people get together (in groups of 30 or so) and do dances and qigong practices (it's a form of marial art as well as a way of life) together. the chinese government never did anything about that.
if the falungong members just want to be falungong members, so be it. but, as president ikeda of the soka gakkai international (SGI) buddhist organization did, it is more proper to just allow the people to practice privately and leave it at that. (ikeda said to jiangzemin (the president of china) that he wouldn't try to promote his buddhism in china until the chinese government and the SGI and the gov't had a strong enough relationship that the gov't wouldn't feel threatened. now the two have a mutually respectful relationship -- as it should be)
hah! i'm an 18-year old american (of irish decent)
i just grew up overseas (partly in china) and care very much for the peoples of the world. but i get no CCP (chinese communist party) paycheck.
if you want my phone number to verify my identity email me at djtansey@allforall.org and i'll happily give it to you.
(btw, i happen to speak, read, and write chinese and have spent many years studying the chinese people and history. that's why i hold such a respect for them and i'll do anything to help the chinese people because of the contributions to civilization they've made over the past 5 thousand years.)
china is the fastest developing country in the world. keep that in mind.
yes. we (the american companies who make much money on these people) don't want to have some economic embargo, no.
but that's a different issue.
tiananmen (spell it right for god's sake!) "massacre" has many sides to it. some believe that the "evil" chinese government willfully ran them over. i happen to have a good CIA buddy who is a sinologist who was in china when this happened. because of the nature of his work i happen to believe him..
he tells me that some roudy protesters started throwing molotov cocktails at some military personel. one of them got ticks off and fired back. then more started firing. then the chinese government, terrified to be seen as not in control of their military, let it happen.
was it wrong of dengxiaoping to allow it to continue? yes.
is china the same way today? no
is it a free nation? not by many measures, no.
is everyone there happy? a lot of them are. a hell of a lot more happy then they were when the guomingdang, supported by america, was going around killing and raping whoever they saw. (the same government which fled to taiwan to rule that "country" under martial law until 1986 or so)
so get off china's back. when america offers to recieve 500 million chinese -- of any socioeconomic status-- for permanent residence and citizenship (making the majority of americans chinese ethnically and making the most spoken language chinese:)) then they can criticizing with my consent. but right now china needs to be strong to keep it's 1.3 million people alive.
it's a REALLY quickly developing country and market. maybe, with structured growth (like the new deal to cure the great depression -- though war is what took us out of it) china will be free one day. but today, if they were free, they'd be a lot of freed doomed people. and that's not right. (or they'd be the puppets of a Western state and all civilization would die, as it died before 1949 when the europeans created much incentive for the groth in petty crime, organized crime, prositution, and corruption).02
patriotism shouldn't be about kicking people out of america. america is supposed to be the all-accepting nation. if i want to walk around saying i hate america all day with a picture of bush laying dead on my shirt then i should be allowed to. patriotism isn't about supporting the current leader. it's about supporting the system. i believe in the morals of this country. separation of church and state, freedom of speech, electing my gov't representatives.
but that's where the blindness comes in. when i'm told i should not practice my freedom of speech if i choose to. that's not patriotism on my accusers part.
when i hear "love it or leave it" when i say that i agree that "under god" in the pledge or "in god we trust" on the money conflicts with the constitution (which is NOT a matter of majority rules -- that's the part of the government that is supposed to be permanent)
when I didn't vote for bush yet somehow i have to approve of what he does? or even if i DID vote for bush and he pulls the stupid stunts he is not and i don't agree with him, i can't criticize him? I'm unpatriotic?
NO! my accusers are unpatriotic! THEY don't understand what american stands for! It DOESN'T stand for profiling arabs. it DOESN'T stand for kicking all "unpatriotic" people out of the nation. it stands for freedom -- and the people who are so blind that they think that the current social system is promoting american values... then they are "blindly patriotic"
after 9/11 bush came to visit my school. i didn't stand for him. i didn't clap.
i was taken out of the auditorium and yelled at by several in the administration.
oh... i'm SO sick of the "love it or leave it" attitude. democracy is supposed to be able people being free to criticize the gov't. but if i do... i should leave?
Oh. That must explain the 76% approval ratings. Face it, you want people to think like this, but the fact is that 0.76 * 285,000,000 Americans disagree with you completely.
i don't think you understand approval ratings...
let me tell you about recent news.. on 9/11 we had this "terrorist" organization attack our world trade center buildings and pentagon. many people died.
american's are ignorant to world affairs. they think that we must be hated because we're on top. they are also largely ignorant to the functions of government.
this tragic event and the ignorance (and arrogance) of the american people cause them to need hand-holding. bush holds hands. he's got some good rhetoric-masters writing his speaches. they throw in the words the american population wants to hear.
americans like tangible things. bumbs being dropped. arabs being profiled. military beefing up. we can see it happening.
and, because of our ignorance (and arrogance) we refuse to think of how our foreign policy may be making us look to all these so-called terrorists.
bombing iraq for 10 years? who cares!
supporting israel no matter what they do? who cares?
not supporting international law (U.N.'s ICC)? who cares?
actively promoting scores of militants and authoritanians in the past because they'd bow to our will? who cares!
so... 76% of american's (call it a float variable "whocares") are of the ignorant type. some amount (call it a float variable "kiddies") just don't want to support the guy who's in charge. and whocares-kiddies=intelligent_americans_who_see_wha t_is_wrong_with_what_we_do_internationally_and_why _people_hate_us.
so... that's what the 0.76 * 285,000,000 Americans disagree who with him completely means.
trust me, i've read up on their movement. you read up on it and tell me where they say that they are out to support the current communist chinese government. they don't SAY directly that they want to topple it. if they did, then anyone who supported them wouldn't just be helping a movement that the chinese gov't doesn't happen to like, they'd be helping a movement that is actively looking for the downfall of the government.
as i've said before (maybe not in the comment you replied to) -- they use spirituality to promote their political agenda. but it's a facade. they're not out to find spiritual peace, their out to get people to join with them because they're a "spiritual" group and then use that clout to destroy the chinese government.
for instance, this little hack. is that a spiritual thing? no. it's a political move. if it was spiritual then they'd happily not protest in tiananmen square. they'd keep quite and make it a personal spiritual movement.
"supposedly spirtual" was added because it's not a spiritual movement. It's a political movement. (Lead by a guy hiding in NY while his followers get themselves killed either by burning themselves or by getting thrown in jail for eternity)
They are not out to reform the Chinese government like the civil rights groups here in american have been. they are out to topple it. and if they do, millions upon millions will die -- starving to death -- because Falungong has no plan as to how to keep 1.3 billion people properly fed.
That's why it's "childish." It is an irresponsible proposal which, today, will only lead to more death.
Maybe it's insulting to equate "childish" with "irresponsible." But that's what the parent poster meant.
I've not read the parent... but I'll just comment on Falungong anyway. I have no respect for them.
They lie about being the ones to develop qigong (which has been around for thousands of years) They use spirituality to promote their own political agenda. And, what makes me the most mad, their leader hides out in NY while he has his followers in China gettings themselves killed (both by burning themselves and pulling stunts like this)
I'd call it a personality cult.
Oh -- and they have no political plan that's viable. This, in my opinion, is very irresponsible and dangerous. Many millions of people would die should there be revolution in china. many millions more would die if there wasn't a VERY strong government after the revolution.
I'd say that very few of the hacks that say "Hacked by Chinese" are actually by mainland Chinese....
they may be taiwanese or falungong members... but probably not mainlanders. (Why to I think this? I've been in the Chinese tech industry for almost a decade now and I don't think that many mainlanders would see a point to hacking a site and leaving that message. They just don't have the motivation. Also, as I do follow the news both here (US) and ther (China), I'd say that some falungong or taiwan crazies have more motivation (making China look like the backwards police state that everyone seems to want to believe) than the mainlanders do).02
I was watching some MSNBC show and the person who was against the ruling (some crazy lady -- and the show's host too -- which i think is unfair) was saying that she doubted highly that people suffered any sort of social criticism because they don't want to say the pledge... esp the under god part. or not saying it at all BECAUSE of the under god part i guess is more accurate..
but anway, i've certainly felt animosity because i don't say it (at all. i used to say it minus the under god part till i realized that i needed to protest the state trying to instill some belief into my mind).
especially after 9/11 (which i think is pathetic. very few people gave a shit about god before 9/11.. then somehow now he's "back." what crap. if you didn't need him before you don't need him now. and i think, personally, that the belief in a higher being is largely disempowering for the majority of people. even my girlfriend believes that "when good things happen to me, i thank god, when bad things happen, i blame myself." what kind of attitude is that? maybe during the calvinist movement people felt empowered by a higher being determining their fate, but now i just see a bunch of teenages who feel like they "weren't chosen" and therefore might as well go off, do drugs, sleep around, become mysogynists (sp), and still somehow claim that they believe jesus "saved us all.")
please. i think that "under god" should be gone. just like it was in 1953. and "in god we trust." gone. "god bless america" sung my government sponsored singers or officials. gone.
let us stick to our constitution. but in government, religion -- of any sort -- should play no part. leave that at home.
Slashdot Mirror
http://www.rickross.com/reference/fa_lun_gong/falu n15.html
that's the earliest article i could find. the chinese REACTION to a falungong protest.
it isn't a case of "oh... there are falungong members in china practicing their martial arts like the other 500 million chinese who practice their martial arts -- pricately or in small groups --. we'd better strike this one down because the name sounds funny, don't you think? "
it was the falungong protesting in beijing that caused this. what sort of "purely" religios movement has protest as part of their practice?
or as a "martial arts" school as they once called themselves.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/terrorism/jan-june0 2/dragnet_4-3.html
i didn't have a link because i was on my way out.
i can't give you a link... but after 9/11 hundreds of arabs were put in prison -- without charge.
jose is in prison -- without charge
and if i want to advocate killing americans, that's my right. i'm no enemy combatant until you can prove that i'm an enemy combatant.
until then, you can't take away my freedoms.
it isn't an issue of whether they're "ready" to do this or that. all people are fallible. chinese gov't too. but they have good intentions (in my opinion). i think most outside religions don't. so they will fool people just as the muslims get fooled and the christians get fooled. but those groups don't have the life of millions on their hands. (though the crusades is a better example of what would happen in china if the most charismatic person was allowed to rule.. like an imbicile like bush... would wreak havoc in china -- they don't have the stability to risk that)
it also speaks volumes that the guy, and the judges, got SO much criticism that the removal got stayed...
as for china -- if they had some open, free gov't it would become like china of the warload era. or of the era where europe played them like pawns and many died. now, with the population, many millions more would die.
like argentina. we prop em' up then refuse to help when "democracy" fails to help them...
well... they've had 14 year olds set themselves on fire... i don't know if that counts.
wo de peng you -- finally, someone who speaks some chinese (hopefully more than "wo do peng you," but "peng you" is a VERY important concept in china, like "guan xi")
i wouldn't dare say they have "excessive freedom"
they need more, agreed
but not now. allow too much freedom now and it will be a time like the 3 kingdoms and warlord era.
or we'll get a new "open door" era. i think you'll agree that was a terrible time in china. (read some luxun -- he paints the picture of chinese people at the time well)
and again -- i don't know if you live in china -- but there are plenty of small religious get-togethers. there are temples. it's all okay as long as it stays small-scale. so just follow that rule.
the chinese gov't has been opening up quickly over the past decade. let it open itself.
evolution is better than revolution -- the effects are much more long lasting.
maybe you'll be the one person to know what "dalutong" means -- "zhongguotong" was already taken, i think... otherwise i'd have used that.
no. i would do anything to help the chinese people. toppling this government, or irritating them, doesn't help the chinese people.
:))
freedom of religion? i don't support it in china, at least for now. religion (from foreign entities) has done terrible things to china in the past
that's why they only have freedom of religion for domestic religions
i've said this in another post, but falungong is just a political extention of the qigong practice. that's been practiced in china for thousands of years. the chinese government never jailed anyone for practicing that. when i lived there i saw people practice qigong everynight in the public parks. freely.
it's only when the religion is run by some kook in NYC that it is bad for the chinese people (by trying to overthrow irresponsibly the chinese government)
so, no, i don't support foreign religions in china. i don't support dependance on western markets. and i have a little idea that president jiang is only allowing foreign investors in until the domestic economy is strong enough that it can support itself. then china will have serious clout. then we'll wish that we'd been more constructive in our criticizms...
that's why my goal in life is to do education reform in china so it can be a GOOD super power when it gets that title (in 30-50 years in my opinion. i have to act fast
helping the chinese people is about mutual respect. when we have that... then criticisms can be constructive. but we don't have that, so the criticisms aren't constructive.
oh yeah.... and if you're arab and you criticize the american public... say hey to your new title: enemy combatant.
.they just restrict what's avaliable publically :))
extrapolate? Will I (irish american) be included in the future?
and i believe it's our FBI who's trying to get the records of what I buy from barnes and nobel. (the chinese government doesn't monitor what you buy..
There is a big difference between china and america. i don't kid myself -- china's no free state. but i agree with that. they need it to keep their people alive. (read some of my other comments if you want to see a more lengthy explaination)
but i've felt the oppression of american society. but that's to a lesser extent then some feel it. like the brave soul who contested the "under god" part of the pledge.
he got death treats.
i think it speaks volumes.
notice that china's changed since mao was around. yes. millions died because of poor political practices. but they've managed to get a good rate of growth in openness balanced with population and agricultural control.
wait 20 years. it will be a different nation. wait 50 and it will be the most free nation in the world. mark my words.
wrong. falungong is pretty much qigong with some political crap attached. qigong's been a VERY popular practice since before china was a state. no one ever got criticized for practicing that. when i lived there (left in 1999) people would do their qigong practices every night in the public parks. no problem. gov't didn't care. it only cares that falungong is run by an obviously anti-chinese leader in NYC. if he was a true religious leader he'd just tell his followers in china to practice the religion privately instead of telling them to organize en-mass to embarrass the gov't.
it's just qigong with political add-ons. get rid of the political part and it's totally OKAY in the gov't's eyes.
cruelworld wrote:
The movements ONLY political agenda is the right to exist in peace. If you practice FG at home and your neighbors find out about then you'll end up in jail. You see the right to keep quite and make it a personal spiritual movement was taken away from them.
there is religious freedom in china... as long as the religion is domestic. this is because of the hell that other religions have brought to china in centuries past.
if this was purely religious and they didn't have mass get-togethers in public areas then there would be no issue. in china qigong (more like a way of life than a religion) is practiced widely. every night people get together (in groups of 30 or so) and do dances and qigong practices (it's a form of marial art as well as a way of life) together. the chinese government never did anything about that.
if the falungong members just want to be falungong members, so be it. but, as president ikeda of the soka gakkai international (SGI) buddhist organization did, it is more proper to just allow the people to practice privately and leave it at that. (ikeda said to jiangzemin (the president of china) that he wouldn't try to promote his buddhism in china until the chinese government and the SGI and the gov't had a strong enough relationship that the gov't wouldn't feel threatened. now the two have a mutually respectful relationship -- as it should be)
hah! i'm an 18-year old american (of irish decent)
i just grew up overseas (partly in china) and care very much for the peoples of the world. but i get no CCP (chinese communist party) paycheck.
if you want my phone number to verify my identity email me at djtansey@allforall.org and i'll happily give it to you.
(btw, i happen to speak, read, and write chinese and have spent many years studying the chinese people and history. that's why i hold such a respect for them and i'll do anything to help the chinese people because of the contributions to civilization they've made over the past 5 thousand years.)
china is the fastest developing country in the world. keep that in mind.
:)) then they can criticizing with my consent. but right now china needs to be strong to keep it's 1.3 million people alive.
.02
yes. we (the american companies who make much money on these people) don't want to have some economic embargo, no.
but that's a different issue.
tiananmen (spell it right for god's sake!) "massacre" has many sides to it. some believe that the "evil" chinese government willfully ran them over. i happen to have a good CIA buddy who is a sinologist who was in china when this happened. because of the nature of his work i happen to believe him..
he tells me that some roudy protesters started throwing molotov cocktails at some military personel. one of them got ticks off and fired back. then more started firing. then the chinese government, terrified to be seen as not in control of their military, let it happen.
was it wrong of dengxiaoping to allow it to continue? yes.
is china the same way today? no
is it a free nation? not by many measures, no.
is everyone there happy? a lot of them are. a hell of a lot more happy then they were when the guomingdang, supported by america, was going around killing and raping whoever they saw. (the same government which fled to taiwan to rule that "country" under martial law until 1986 or so)
so get off china's back. when america offers to recieve 500 million chinese -- of any socioeconomic status-- for permanent residence and citizenship (making the majority of americans chinese ethnically and making the most spoken language chinese
it's a REALLY quickly developing country and market. maybe, with structured growth (like the new deal to cure the great depression -- though war is what took us out of it) china will be free one day. but today, if they were free, they'd be a lot of freed doomed people. and that's not right. (or they'd be the puppets of a Western state and all civilization would die, as it died before 1949 when the europeans created much incentive for the groth in petty crime, organized crime, prositution, and corruption)
"blindly patriotic" -- "love it or leave it"
patriotism shouldn't be about kicking people out of america. america is supposed to be the all-accepting nation. if i want to walk around saying i hate america all day with a picture of bush laying dead on my shirt then i should be allowed to. patriotism isn't about supporting the current leader. it's about supporting the system. i believe in the morals of this country. separation of church and state, freedom of speech, electing my gov't representatives.
but that's where the blindness comes in. when i'm told i should not practice my freedom of speech if i choose to. that's not patriotism on my accusers part.
when i hear "love it or leave it" when i say that i agree that "under god" in the pledge or "in god we trust" on the money conflicts with the constitution (which is NOT a matter of majority rules -- that's the part of the government that is supposed to be permanent)
when I didn't vote for bush yet somehow i have to approve of what he does? or even if i DID vote for bush and he pulls the stupid stunts he is not and i don't agree with him, i can't criticize him? I'm unpatriotic?
NO! my accusers are unpatriotic! THEY don't understand what american stands for! It DOESN'T stand for profiling arabs. it DOESN'T stand for kicking all "unpatriotic" people out of the nation. it stands for freedom -- and the people who are so blind that they think that the current social system is promoting american values... then they are "blindly patriotic"
after 9/11 bush came to visit my school. i didn't stand for him. i didn't clap.
i was taken out of the auditorium and yelled at by several in the administration.
that's blindly patriotic.
oh... i'm SO sick of the "love it or leave it" attitude. democracy is supposed to be able people being free to criticize the gov't. but if i do... i should leave?
argh!
Oh. That must explain the 76% approval ratings. Face it, you want people to think like this, but the fact is that 0.76 * 285,000,000 Americans disagree with you completely.
a t_is_wrong_with_what_we_do_internationally_and_why _people_hate_us.
i don't think you understand approval ratings...
let me tell you about recent news.. on 9/11 we had this "terrorist" organization attack our world trade center buildings and pentagon. many people died.
american's are ignorant to world affairs. they think that we must be hated because we're on top. they are also largely ignorant to the functions of government.
this tragic event and the ignorance (and arrogance) of the american people cause them to need hand-holding. bush holds hands. he's got some good rhetoric-masters writing his speaches. they throw in the words the american population wants to hear.
americans like tangible things. bumbs being dropped. arabs being profiled. military beefing up. we can see it happening.
and, because of our ignorance (and arrogance) we refuse to think of how our foreign policy may be making us look to all these so-called terrorists.
bombing iraq for 10 years? who cares!
supporting israel no matter what they do? who cares?
not supporting international law (U.N.'s ICC)? who cares?
actively promoting scores of militants and authoritanians in the past because they'd bow to our will? who cares!
so... 76% of american's (call it a float variable "whocares") are of the ignorant type. some amount (call it a float variable "kiddies") just don't want to support the guy who's in charge. and whocares-kiddies=intelligent_americans_who_see_wh
so... that's what the 0.76 * 285,000,000 Americans disagree who with him completely means.
trust me, i've read up on their movement. you read up on it and tell me where they say that they are out to support the current communist chinese government. they don't SAY directly that they want to topple it. if they did, then anyone who supported them wouldn't just be helping a movement that the chinese gov't doesn't happen to like, they'd be helping a movement that is actively looking for the downfall of the government.
as i've said before (maybe not in the comment you replied to) -- they use spirituality to promote their political agenda. but it's a facade. they're not out to find spiritual peace, their out to get people to join with them because they're a "spiritual" group and then use that clout to destroy the chinese government.
for instance, this little hack. is that a spiritual thing? no. it's a political move. if it was spiritual then they'd happily not protest in tiananmen square. they'd keep quite and make it a personal spiritual movement.
I like you. You seem like my type of person. Keep it up.
"supposedly spirtual" was added because it's not a spiritual movement. It's a political movement. (Lead by a guy hiding in NY while his followers get themselves killed either by burning themselves or by getting thrown in jail for eternity)
They are not out to reform the Chinese government like the civil rights groups here in american have been. they are out to topple it. and if they do, millions upon millions will die -- starving to death -- because Falungong has no plan as to how to keep 1.3 billion people properly fed.
That's why it's "childish." It is an irresponsible proposal which, today, will only lead to more death.
Maybe it's insulting to equate "childish" with "irresponsible." But that's what the parent poster meant.
I've not read the parent... but I'll just comment on Falungong anyway. I have no respect for them.
They lie about being the ones to develop qigong (which has been around for thousands of years)
They use spirituality to promote their own political agenda.
And, what makes me the most mad, their leader hides out in NY while he has his followers in China gettings themselves killed (both by burning themselves and pulling stunts like this)
I'd call it a personality cult.
Oh -- and they have no political plan that's viable. This, in my opinion, is very irresponsible and dangerous. Many millions of people would die should there be revolution in china. many millions more would die if there wasn't a VERY strong government after the revolution.
I'd say that very few of the hacks that say "Hacked by Chinese" are actually by mainland Chinese....
.02
they may be taiwanese or falungong members... but probably not mainlanders. (Why to I think this? I've been in the Chinese tech industry for almost a decade now and I don't think that many mainlanders would see a point to hacking a site and leaving that message. They just don't have the motivation. Also, as I do follow the news both here (US) and ther (China), I'd say that some falungong or taiwan crazies have more motivation (making China look like the backwards police state that everyone seems to want to believe) than the mainlanders do)
Gibraltar is a nice debian boot-from-CDrom/run-off-CDrom distribution geared towards firewalls.
Hope this helps
David
I was watching some MSNBC show and the person who was against the ruling (some crazy lady -- and the show's host too -- which i think is unfair) was saying that she doubted highly that people suffered any sort of social criticism because they don't want to say the pledge... esp the under god part. or not saying it at all BECAUSE of the under god part i guess is more accurate..
but anway, i've certainly felt animosity because i don't say it (at all. i used to say it minus the under god part till i realized that i needed to protest the state trying to instill some belief into my mind).
especially after 9/11 (which i think is pathetic. very few people gave a shit about god before 9/11.. then somehow now he's "back." what crap. if you didn't need him before you don't need him now. and i think, personally, that the belief in a higher being is largely disempowering for the majority of people. even my girlfriend believes that "when good things happen to me, i thank god, when bad things happen, i blame myself." what kind of attitude is that? maybe during the calvinist movement people felt empowered by a higher being determining their fate, but now i just see a bunch of teenages who feel like they "weren't chosen" and therefore might as well go off, do drugs, sleep around, become mysogynists (sp), and still somehow claim that they believe jesus "saved us all.")
please. i think that "under god" should be gone. just like it was in 1953. and "in god we trust." gone. "god bless america" sung my government sponsored singers or officials. gone.
let us stick to our constitution. but in government, religion -- of any sort -- should play no part. leave that at home.