Re:Mathematics not universal?
on
The Golden Ratio
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
I think if we look at other non-western civilizations here on Earth we might be able to see math as other non-humans might. For example, the Navahoe (sp?) native American indians had a different concept of time. I don't know enough about the specifics but their language evolved differently as a result of how they look at the universe. (which is why they made for good code talkers in WWII as their langauge was difficult to decipher to the japanese).
Obviously the laws of the universe are going to be the same, otherwise we wouldn't live in the same universe and we wouldn't be having this discussion. But the modeling might be different, either more efficent or just a different path to get from point A to point C.
Remember that movie Contact where the Vagans sent us a coded message that humans couldn't understand until we put the messages together in 3 dimensional space, instead of on a flat piece of paper.
I think IF there are other sentient species out there then it is possible that their view of the univierse has developed differently then ours, but they still must observe the same universe as ours. They might call gravity a hamburger for all we know, but a rose by any other name smells just as sweet.
So in effect, the mathmatical models may not be universal, but their results will be. I can't imagine being able to master space flight without simple mathmatical concepts like addition. Look at the universe, specifically how biology works and addition is every where.
"So why do Americans insist on protecting people from sexuality before they turn 18"
You cannot protect someone from sexuality. That is, the biological process called puberty. But what we can protect our kids from is unhealthy sexuality.
"I've never heard of someone PUSHING porn on someone else"
Do you know how many unsoliceted porn spams I get a day?!? That is what I meant. That has nothing to do with how a kid got a Playboy. The whole point of the online protection is that it is so much easier to target kids (pedophiles) or allow kids to see things that normally would require id to buy in most states (Playboy Mag).
That is the whole point of the thing! Not that we should do away with porn, but just saying that people must make an effort to protect kids, who don't necessarily know better, from seeing things that they are not mature enough to understand.
"protending to be protecting our kids from what our puritanical roots identify as *sin*"
What do you mean? Are you saying that we aren't doing a good job protecting our kids because they can get porn from any other source then within our own homes? Or are you saying that it is wrong to have 'puritanical roots' that identify porn as sin?
I agree with you that the parents cannot be watching what their kids are doing 100% of the time. Unfortunetly, in our culture sexual promiscuity is no longer feared and even rewarded. You can't get away from it even if you wanted to. So yes you are right that there are an unlimited number of ways to get porn that parents cannot do anything about. But that still doesn't make it right. So we have to teach our kids what the difference between right and wrong so that when one of their friends says "hey, let's go look at this nudie mag I just got" they know enought to say "no thanks!" But we must also give those kids that don't have parents who love them as much a fighting chance to have a 'normal' life. Even if the parents don't care, somebody, even if it is the government, has to tell these kids that even if your parents are messed up doens't mean you have to be.
But I belive your question was on sexuality, not legality. Yes, sexualtiy is a normal part of human behavior. That is, within the paramaters of a normal relationship. You say "we weren't meant to breed until we were 18 then humans wouldn't sexually mature till then. " Well, maybe that's because our culture is pushing for a more developed sexuality earlier. Just like in advertisement that when you tell people that a certain behavior is what they need over and over again, evetually some people are going to believe it. Allowing free access to porn will do just that. Our country is built on the foundation of a stable society. Societies are built from stable families. Stable families develop from a healthy relationship between a man and a woman. If you begin to unravel that relationship, eventually society and then our country will have serious problems. Any way you look at it, objectively that is, porn tears at that relationship. This is why we at least have to try at keeping our kids from it as long as we can.
In my opinion the government laws on this sort of thing is there to prosecute and punish those people who want to try to sell, or give, my kids porn. I can't go beat up someone who's been pushing this junk on my kids but I could call me DAs office and let them handle it.
The final argument is that even if you don't buy the moral or leagal arguments, you at least have to let someone bring up their kids the way that they want to. We have to offer parents the freedom to do that, and the only way to have freedom is through the enforcement of laws that protect those freedoms.
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I think if we look at other non-western civilizations here on Earth we might be able to see math as other non-humans might. For example, the Navahoe (sp?) native American indians had a different concept of time. I don't know enough about the specifics but their language evolved differently as a result of how they look at the universe. (which is why they made for good code talkers in WWII as their langauge was difficult to decipher to the japanese).
Obviously the laws of the universe are going to be the same, otherwise we wouldn't live in the same universe and we wouldn't be having this discussion. But the modeling might be different, either more efficent or just a different path to get from point A to point C.
Remember that movie Contact where the Vagans sent us a coded message that humans couldn't understand until we put the messages together in 3 dimensional space, instead of on a flat piece of paper.
I think IF there are other sentient species out there then it is possible that their view of the univierse has developed differently then ours, but they still must observe the same universe as ours. They might call gravity a hamburger for all we know, but a rose by any other name smells just as sweet.
So in effect, the mathmatical models may not be universal, but their results will be. I can't imagine being able to master space flight without simple mathmatical concepts like addition. Look at the universe, specifically how biology works and addition is every where.
my 2 cents. -- Jim
I was previously a systems/help desk guy; but now I am a reformed developer. Is this the same thing?
"So why do Americans insist on protecting people from sexuality before they turn 18"
You cannot protect someone from sexuality. That is, the biological process called puberty. But what we can protect our kids from is unhealthy sexuality.
"I've never heard of someone PUSHING porn on someone else"
Do you know how many unsoliceted porn spams I get a day?!? That is what I meant. That has nothing to do with how a kid got a Playboy. The whole point of the online protection is that it is so much easier to target kids (pedophiles) or allow kids to see things that normally would require id to buy in most states (Playboy Mag).
That is the whole point of the thing! Not that we should do away with porn, but just saying that people must make an effort to protect kids, who don't necessarily know better, from seeing things that they are not mature enough to understand.
"protending to be protecting our kids from what our puritanical roots identify as *sin*"
What do you mean? Are you saying that we aren't doing a good job protecting our kids because they can get porn from any other source then within our own homes? Or are you saying that it is wrong to have 'puritanical roots' that identify porn as sin?
I agree with you that the parents cannot be watching what their kids are doing 100% of the time. Unfortunetly, in our culture sexual promiscuity is no longer feared and even rewarded. You can't get away from it even if you wanted to. So yes you are right that there are an unlimited number of ways to get porn that parents cannot do anything about. But that still doesn't make it right. So we have to teach our kids what the difference between right and wrong so that when one of their friends says "hey, let's go look at this nudie mag I just got" they know enought to say "no thanks!" But we must also give those kids that don't have parents who love them as much a fighting chance to have a 'normal' life. Even if the parents don't care, somebody, even if it is the government, has to tell these kids that even if your parents are messed up doens't mean you have to be.
But I belive your question was on sexuality, not legality. Yes, sexualtiy is a normal part of human behavior. That is, within the paramaters of a normal relationship. You say "we weren't meant to breed until we were 18 then humans wouldn't sexually mature till then. " Well, maybe that's because our culture is pushing for a more developed sexuality earlier. Just like in advertisement that when you tell people that a certain behavior is what they need over and over again, evetually some people are going to believe it. Allowing free access to porn will do just that. Our country is built on the foundation of a stable society. Societies are built from stable families. Stable families develop from a healthy relationship between a man and a woman. If you begin to unravel that relationship, eventually society and then our country will have serious problems. Any way you look at it, objectively that is, porn tears at that relationship. This is why we at least have to try at keeping our kids from it as long as we can.
In my opinion the government laws on this sort of thing is there to prosecute and punish those people who want to try to sell, or give, my kids porn. I can't go beat up someone who's been pushing this junk on my kids but I could call me DAs office and let them handle it.
The final argument is that even if you don't buy the moral or leagal arguments, you at least have to let someone bring up their kids the way that they want to. We have to offer parents the freedom to do that, and the only way to have freedom is through the enforcement of laws that protect those freedoms.
--Jim
Think about the potential. We could but a Special Operations force in orbit and within 20 minutes they could be anywhere in the world.