Slashdot Mirror
From Gang Bangers to Web Developers?
evenprime asks: "The Economist is running an article about a program that takes gang members in Milwaukee, sends them through rehab, and
teaches them web development so that they can have a decent paying job. I think this type of program - one that gives people the ability to help themselves - is a great idea, and it is something that many of us could help with. Do slashdot readers know of any similar programs in other places? If so, what type of qualifications do you think they would require before allowing someone to help teach web design?" Such programs are just too damned cool. Are there any others like it?
Aren't we being a little presumptuous here? Kind of like saying all members of that linux gang are hackers...
ok then your [sic] infringing on my copyright! Could you as [sic] me next time before STEALING my comments for your own?
Do they actually know what Gang Bangers are?
:)
I thought this story was about ex-porn stars becoming web developers
It's been a long time.
I just can't wait to see the flamewars when messages get crossposted to alt.crips and alt.bloods.
http://www.1337D00DZ.com/?
The actual sites they've created; are they worth while?
I'm up for teaching our evil children things to bring them back into the world, but is it just helping them be evil again???
--
Yes, I'm single.
No, you're probably not my type.
So now that they are developers. They can give us all more porn web-site "with experienced" pictures.
"Time is long and life is short, so begin to live while you still can." -EV
as far as i know, the only requirement for getting a teaching position in this program is being able to translate gang-banger-ese into geek-ese.
For example:
beeitch = troll
sheeeit = w00t!
gonna smoke that mofo = i'm gonna frag him!
The terms "Web development" and "Decent paying job" are mutually exclusive these days, neh?
They call them gang "bangers" because they belong to gangs and they "bang."
bang (v): To strike heavily and often repeatedly; bump
in which case, they are going into the right business!
"hi, my name is bob, and I am a rehabilitated
porn star. thanks to gangs-to-webbies, I now
run a highly profitable adult website!"
heh
A year spent in artificial intelligence is enough to make one believe in God.
They're already used to working with tags :)
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Not to offend anyone...
Programs which try to help those who have "fallen" to get up on their feet again have been around for quite some time, in various areas and countries. Some organized by gouvernments, some by charities. What is the point exactly, that now people are learning the (excuse me, but questionable) qualification of WebDesigner?
I sincerely hope that it's not that slashdot readers are only aware of social issues when they become "geek-compatible".
Just my weird mind speaking,
Alex
Absinthe makes the heart grow fonder
Am I the only on that had the image of mulitple porn actors being retrained for web development?
Probably, I guess. *sigh*
for the drive bys when someone calls up for service......
They should train for more promising careers, like defense contractors or pharmaceutical manufacturers.
Unfortunately, web design? With the advent of WYSIWYG editors like Dreamweaver and the lot and the decline and fall of startup "civilization", the ability to put together a web page won't get these kids too far (the article doesn't mention anything about programming or administration skills above and beyond simple web design being taught).
Slapping a cheap band-aid on a failing educational system ("The city has a 60% high-school dropout rate") won't fix anything permanently. It's nice that he's helped 72 lost youth find gainful employment, but what of the tens of thousands who haven't receieved aftermarket intervention?
Easy does it!
This comment has been submitted already, 276865 hours , 59 minutes ago. No need to try again.
Actually, wasn't this how Australia got *it's* start?
We have plenty of bang gang sites on the net already!
...not that I would know, of course!
Bjarke Roune
Also don't forget to check how many of today's websites fully comply with W3C recommendations. Just try the validator on popular sites. This shows that web designers are not the innocent sheep that they try to mimic.
michael at slashdot.org: The real answer is that a couple of the slashdot authors are sick.
Gang Banger ? The only gang banger I know don't wage war, they spread the love baby !
Why not acts on Finger banger too !
Ask kids not to Finger Bang one another because it leads to acts of random violence.
-Kenny do you know what's a finger bang ?
-[Answer Muffled]
-Huh ! Gross !
-Linux is SO fast it does an infinite loop in 5 seconds.
based on the title, I thought this was some sort of expose about how adult film stars are losing chicks to the web developers. Sheesh.
-- Dan
If you join a gang, you learn their secret customs.
If you join a web group, you learn their secret locations for web documents
In a gang, you have undying loyality to the leader, without any justification why.
In a web group, you have undying loyality to your particular brand of web server, without any justification why.
In a gang, you are forced to do stupid things, like homemade tattoos.
In a web group, you're forced to use stupid products, like Weblogics.
In a gang, you carry a gun that you use a lot.
In a web group, you carry an ego that you could use to kill someone.
If you leave the gang, they try to kill you.
If you leave the web group, they kill your access.
See, very very similar.
Gonzo Granzeau
"Nothing the god of biomechanics wouldn't let you into heaven for.." -Roy Batty
It was in Grade 9 French (up here in Canada) and it was a snow day so the class was only about 1/2 full. The teacher, seeing the small turn-out, decides that we should do something different and fun, so she solicits ideas. Anyways I had heard this new term so I piped up "We should have a big gang-bang!" (thinking it was a party). I got quite a few funny looks, and later was informed of what a gang-bang was.
Be a law abiding citizen and pay for training out of your own pocket.
Does anyone else see something wrong with this?
Anyone know what the hell is up with this term? I heard it on the news starting in '94 or so and could hardly believe my ears. It really makes no sense, must be one of the most pointless slang terms ever.
Here's a program that recently had a fund raiser at Chicago's Addler Planetarium (sp?):http://icstars.org/
I think a lot of ex-web developers will be running to Compton, begging the gang-bangers to teach them how to pimp and push crack.
This is not exactly ensuring a bright and prosperous future. I've been working my ass off for the last month... yet all I have is exactly $4 in my bank account. I need to buy food today on $4.
Frankly I'm at the point where I want to take up the trade of gang banging to get the money that's owed to me!
So when they are on the computer and see RTCW and see the damage a flamethower can do. They Well just use hi tech weapons for gang war. Not that the flamethower is a high tech weapon, sheaking of which where is the Troll thrower weapon?
"All I can tell the "lesser of two evils" folks is that if they keep voting for evil, they'll keep getting evil."-Lp.org
I always wondered who had the time to create http://www.gangwars.com
Seems like the last thing that the labor pool needs is a whole bunch of entry-level web developers. Aren't there a lot of those looking for work nowadays?
what about us jaded and burnt out programmers? who is creating a program for us to turn to a life of crime and hit the streets popping caps and offing rival members and shit so that we can have some excitement in our lives?
damn it feels good to be a gangsta.
my life is so much fucking like office space it isn't even funny. except I don't get jennifer anniston. fuck.
There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
I live in Milwaukee and never heard of this story before, its never been on the local news or local papers, but a Mag from England finds out about.
Sounds neat but why no local coverage.........
Somebody register gangbangers.com before these new web developers figure out how to do it!
I was once a criminal. Life was tough, and only the strong survived. I was living on the street and forced to use Windows CE. I would beg for flash OS updates. For a patch I would do anything.
Than this man with the street name LT showed me the light. He and his penquin posse helped me clean up my act.
I am windows free for over a year all. LT and the crew changed my life.
Seriously, how many of you have dealt with your local IT guy and not thought that they were previously gang bangers? All you have to do is look at the situation where you have an IT group rather than just one guy, they revert back to their gang mentality. True it is a more nerdy gang and there's more pocket protectors and less Uzis and bandanas, but think about it, they operate like a gang.
Think back to the last time you needed to install a program, you couldn't do it because you don't have "administrative rights." In other words, it's IT's turf, and you can't tread on it. Then you asked the IT guy that was floating around if he could do it, and he said "you need to talk to my administrator." In other words, knuck-knuck can't make those types of decisions, show some respect and go talk to little T-Moe if you want to get the hookup. So you go talk to little T-Moe and you say that it's Mission Critical and you need it ASAP. Well, he says "we have logged your request and we will assist you as soon as we have the resources." In other words, as soon as Big-C is finished with his 40 ounce and box of BBQ Wangs, he'll bounce on over to your cube and computer-jack your workstation for the couple of hours it takes him to install your application. Then you call little T-Moe when the job is done to say thanks, and all he says is "fuhgettaboutit."
This also poses another interesting question: were they gangbangers before or after they graduated from the Devry institute?
Seriously though, this program of troubled youths to web developers is something to watch closely and see how things turn out, if it ends up being positive and these kids really become upstanding citizens then we need to start more similar technology related programs.
But of course if it doesn't work out then this just means there will be a lot more websites that steal your credit card information...
~ now you know
I'm always skeptical of these too-good-to-be-true feel-good stories. So these are gang members and drug addicts, and the vast majority are able to clean up their act? And handle the boring, uptight corporate workplace? Not one of the 150 programmers has gone back to their "old ways"? Seems fishy...
This is not a slur towards anyone or anything, but the bigger problem is that most of these kids can't even read. I was interested in doing this sort of thing a couple of years ago when I was living in LA.
I spoke with someone who was actually did urban education. She came into it wanting to teach urban kids advanced skills and ended up teaching them basic reading and writing skills.
There are alot of skills Slashdotters take for granted that these kids probably don't know. Like reading at a 9th grade level or knowing multiplication tables or how to write a paragraph.
Brian Ellenberger
I thought that Microsoft has been doing web development for a long time now.
so if we tell them thier webpage sucks, or if we deface thier pages...do we get shot?
I SURVIVED THE GREAT SLASHDOT BLACKOUT OF 2002!
I thought Gang Bangers already made websites...
like http://www.porn.com, http://www.sex.com, http://www.gigantichooters.com
Oh, THOSE Gang Bangers...
Th
Isn't the "Web Development" job market saturated to the point where hundreds of thousands of "Web Developers" are unemployed? Isn't a growing portion of development now done (less expensively) oversees?
Why train people for a job with a limited future? Maybe because they know they can get away with paying newbies 20-25K a year, if not less?
After no high-paying fantasy web job after 6 months, and they'll be back on the streets. I know I would be.
Once we can be sure that they are not going to return to a life of crime, then maybe they should get a chance at the e-commerce jobs. Why not ? After all, as criminals they would have some insight into the criminal mind, and criminal techniques. Just what we need.
Thankfully there's a major purge happening in the software development industry right now (though unfortunately it's affecting people who don't deserve it too), cleaning out the loads and loads of people who signed up for software development after seeing a nightly "Train for a promising future in IT!". I do hope that there are loads of people who've redirected their career aspiritions to other fields (there still are quite a few other fields out there) lest we have an unproductive world of 5 billion "software developers".
I saw a commercial on TV that just blew me away: It was for the Goodwill I believe and they were talking about where they spend the money raised, and it went like "We train people in small engine repair, landscaping [ergo grass cutting], and software development". Give me a friggin' break. Why not "We train people in management, advertising executive positions, and medical practice". It's just as credible. So many people refuse to acknowledge the massive information mass that has to be consumed to be effective in this field.
I think that web development is still a pretty decent entry-level job. While there are not as many new public web sites, most big companies are still investing a lot of time & money in their intranets. Web development is becoming like every other kind of software development -- 90% of it is done for internal company use. That's not going to change anytime soon.
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
Yeah, that's brilliant. Spend gobs of cash educating pre-criminals in a technology field that is already overcrowded with mediocre talent.
What will society get in return? An unemployed former gang member mediocre HTML 'coder' that realizes jacking the working man is far more profitable and 10 times easier.
Why do users with IDs under 100,000 or over 700,000 usually have the most worthwhile comments?
Twizzap biatch! Yo! Yo! Web D in the hizouse, bustin' mad HTML on ya bitch asses. Linux 35 life, no punk card pulled on y'all NT admin shorty, mad G dog gettin' all cray-zee up in all y'all lay-deez, cornah my real estate you be pushin up the day-zeez, uh. Ball Street to Wall Street, we makin' money gettin paid, writin' code gettin' laid, off the bad pizipe dogs, yeah, and into the kind. J-Skripts, mad skillz, no billz, all ya shorties is belong to us. Outtie, brahs!
AC's cheerfully ignored
Let's get these poverty-stricken individuals and put them into the most glutted sector of the industry where even if they found a job, they'd be out of work in a month. Then watch them return to crime...
Then-governor of Wisconsin Tommy Thompson (now Secretary of Health and Human Services in the Bush administration) tried something similar with the W2 program in 1996: giving welding training to welfare recipients so they could have decent-paying jobs and get off welfare.
Sounds great, but many of these people, as I understand it, had never worked before, and were fired shortly after being placed because they had no workplace skills that emphasized things like showing up on time or calling in if they were sick. They had welding skills, but there's a lot more that goes into getting someone ready to join the workforce. Specific-skill training seems a temptingly easy solution to transition-to-workforce problems, but it has to be part of a bigger plan if it's going to work.
-- http://frobnosticate.com
Currently web designers are being payed by the ounce of bloat (flash, asp, jsp...), not for decent design.
Just what the world needs. I get at least one application every day from "web developers" who want to tap into that vast market for web pages out there. Each and every one has done at least one web page. Some have done two or three. They can all use Frontpage but none of them can read their HTML, few have heard of XML, and they all pronounce Linux "lie-nix".
I know a phone tech who wants $36,000 a year cuz he is "really a web developer". He'd be better off learning what DNS means.
I think the answer to poverty is not quick-and-easy training in some buzz-word technology or how to use some piece of software. I think that the groups involved in leadership of minority groups have to take some responsibility for their own community failings and start to drive their kids towards real, thorough (that means "hard work") education.
No one ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke!
And I was just about to join a gang because the job market for web development isn't very promising at the moment.
Why don't they train them for more stable jobs? Like something in healthcare or public service. The technology market is flooded anyway. So these people will recieve this training and have all the "promises" and then they won't be able to find a job much better than food service.
Wouldn't the black market and the drug trade seem to have better pay offs?
So I guess you have to be in a gang to get a free education? I can see it now: "sorry poor kid, you've got to go deal drugs, do a drive by or kill someone for their sneakers before we can educate you. BTW, do you prefer red or blue?" what about teh people like this? the ones who got a bad break in life but have not commited a crime?
I was a web devloper, but had to become a gang banger to feed my family. Damn, I wish these people would give these kids a chance in life. I wouldn't wish web devlopment on my worst enemy.
It's not specifically technical, but it's a highly successful (well, relative to any Government program) welfare to work program that's privately funded, typically by the companies that hire people.
http://www.strivecentral.com/
+5:offtopic,but anti-American
If you were an employer, would you hire one of these guys???
Drug and crime convictions...
First they have to pass an interview. Then they have to pass the urine test. *hah*
And how many employees would feel safe knowing that there are gang members working along side of them. I don't think that bringing violence INTO the workplace is such a good idea... considering that we're trying to get it OUT of the workplace.
I don't think the Crips and Blood will do well adhereing to the "corporate casual" dress code.
I can hear it already....
employer: "Sorry Julio, you can't wear your gang colors to work."
Julio: "Fuck you maing, step off befoah I buss a cap in yo ass! Foo!"
SIDE NOTE: If I was a web developer I'd be enraged about this article - as it's saying that illiterate criminals can do your job!
[Connection closed by foreign host]
... is it possible to turn web developers into gang bangers?
Lemme guess, they minor in internet appliances?
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
It is about time our society stopped trying to punish criminals instead of getting them to contribute something back to society.
For example, I have never understood the benefit of throwing a drunk driver who accidentally kills someone in jail. Instead of ten years in prison, why not a lifetime of community service? The person involved would probably jump at the chance to avoid jail, and society would benefit a lot from having people available to do extra jobs like teach or clean up a neighborhood.
This would not work for everyone though. Child molesterers or murderers probably do not deserve a chance to make up for their crimes, but others do.
-sirket
As long as they aren't getting a day of Front Page and then let loose, it's a good idea.
Here we have a few private colleges that charge $12,000/year and basically teach students nothing useful. We've had a few in as interns. One thought it was a good idea to put Back Orifice on all the workstations. One couldn't figure out how to change the color of links in HTML.
Even now anyone with real skills can get employed with ease.
I can't spell or type, but that doesn't mean I'm unusually stupid.
For $4, you can get about a month's supply of ramen noodles. Get the chicken or shrimp kind with little bits of meat for some protein.
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
This sounds like a good program, but noting the fortune 500, how many were hired because of their race in addition to their skills via affirmative action?
It's good that they're getting a second chance at life. I'm just skeptical of everything.
I used the preview button and it erased a perfectly good argument.
Such programs are just too damned cool. Are there any others like it?
The Taliban has a similar program. Only it works the other way around. They take decent respectable impressionable young Muslims and turn them into terrorists who hijack jumbo jets and crash them into buildings.
Finally, an efficient program for turning inner-city gangs into script kiddie h4x0r cr3ws! I've been waiting so long.
If someone's going to be creating damage, then be sure to focus their attention on something that can't possibly get any worse. That's what i say.
i was gonna crack (no pun intended ;) a joke about gangs in places like milwaukee, but reading the rest of the /. responses gave me pause....
/.) who comment on it.....
;)
i'd just like to say that i personally am happy to see that there are groups out there that are trying to improve peoples lives....
it's sorta ironic how so many people call for reform based programs instead of jail-time, but then a program like this that's intended to spark interest and develop skills is ridiculed by the majority of people (on
who cares if web development isnt' a high paying job anymore... who cares if their web sites aren't the greatest ever.... there are people out there actually trying to do something for others who have harder lives.... that's more than most of us can say, isn't it
-- dragonxhero
Take a look at http://www.citysoft.com/. They've been around for a couple of years and do similar things for Boston, NY, and Baltimore. The interesting thing here is that they try and do it for profit, rather than pure charity.
Tom.
Oh arse
Web development? Are they crazy? These guys might get one decent paying job, but as people wise-up they're going to stop paying web monkeys 2x what they're worth; it's already happening. They'll be even -more- pissed off then!
So now we've got technology savy, pissesd off, gang bangers. They'll be using the web to communicate and organize a revolution against the penal system and all Hell will break loose! Hey, I have an idea, lets give them guns while were at it!
Okay, but seriously... why web development? It's really a dead-end job and dying off at that. Give 'em something better, like *nix system administration or OO programming. At least then I'd look better coming into job interviews.
I think flooding an already over populated market in recession with ex-convicts is a great idea.
With these guys, you don't have to worry about them running off to work with DMR or PriceWaterhouse after you've spent all that time training them!
...and their mothers.
Let them rot in prison.
why are these two mututally exclusive?
Check out http://www.freegeek.org, Free Geek, based in Portland, Oregon, as an example of how people can donate old equipment, volunteer renovating it for distribution to needy people, and volunteer to teach others. It's a great way for working technical people to give back the best way they know how ... teaching others what they know and getting rid of those old Pentium Pro 90's they THINK they're going to turn into Linux servers but never actually get around to doing.
Indeed, I know of a similar program. Microsoft has taken a proactive role in turning thugs into developers. By teaming up with the MPAA and RIAA, Microsoft has formed the new charity that aims to turn common criminals into productive members of society.
That's right. Criminals who do such things as copy their audio CD's to mp3's, use only one license for both of their computers, view DVDs, and even reverse-engineer software are converted to happy-go-lucky Windows users who subscribe to MSN.
-- Ken Kinder ken@_nospam_kenkinder.com http://kenkinder.com/
Sometimes I think that in order to get any help in this country, you first have to become a criminal. There's this moronic ideology that says that we could all become supermen if we tried, except of course the defective people like "Gang Bangers" who need a leg up. The fact is, there are millions of people who need and deserve more help than "at risk" youths, retards, and every other group that so-called liberals weep for. (And no, I'm not a so-called conservative.)
For example, making license plates in prison...
Oh, yeah. THIS is a good idea....
"Excuse me, but this table is out of place when you view it in Netsc..."
(Takes out box cutter) "Mutha fucka! Muthafuckin Netscapin muthafucka! I cut yo ass!"
...And Milwaukee? WTF? "You better not wear those MillerBoyz colors into Bud turf."
m00.
If your company hire such a web designer, no one will ever complain about it or it might be its last complain ....
If you own a company and want to run the perfect network, hire one of this guyz : no one will ever complain. No complains => no prob => perfect network :)
The fortune at the bottom of the page says:
Don't believe everything you hear or anything you say.
I think that applies to this discussion. All I see here are posts on how these kids don't deserve a "free ride" when they've never gotten a "free ride" in their entire lives, or jokes about getting "capped" for making the IT dept. angry, or even dumber jokes about porn stars, or a complete lack of faith in these kids.
Haven't any of you been young and frustrated once? Were you born into IT or development, and therefore have the right to snub anyone you find unfit? Have a little faith! Just an ounce, that's all I (and anyone who wants to see a positive change in the world) ask!
Nobody believes that other people can change, and why? Because they don't see themselves able to change, and that MUST mean it's impossible, right? WRONG! What it all comes down to is that, until someone goes completely insane, everyone wakes up in the morning hoping that today will be all right, or at least better than yesterday. To deny these kids that right and that possibility because of your own biases and apathy is shameless, and should get you to thinking about what CAN be done, if this doesn't work. Until you can find a better example of a positive plan for the future, shut up and let others have a chance at it.
There's just too much crap in this world without shoveling it back on one another.
Emacs: for people who just never know when to
"[the program] sends them through rehab"
I was just sort of passively taking this in as being a bit stereotypical. Not all gang members need rehab. Being in a gang does not make you a drug user and not all people in gangs have any serious problems.
How many of us would call our own little geek cults gangs? Ever have one of your group wronged by someone then have the group dislike and/or take action against a person? Would you call Masters of Deception (MOD) a gang? There's a few parallels between street gangs and geek cults, so... *shrug*
Why bother.
If I am even a second late with a loan payment for my education, I have some robotic bill collector tracking me down like the Terminator. I should have been smart in my youth. Instead of studying, taking a second job and busting my rear end tracking down alternative education funding, I should broken every law in the book -- sold drugs, shot people and operated in a criminal conspiracy. I would have less debt, gotten more tail and a free education in the same career I have today. God, I am such an idiot. What was I thinking? Must have been some bizarre idea that the American Dream was achieved by hard work and respecting my fellow man.
Does it ever pay to be honest in our society anymore?
And to the question of, "Well, what you have them do?", the answer would be, "Sit in jail". If we keep rewarding bad behavior in this country, there is no use in promoting good behavior.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
(Score 0, Redundant) I can only imagine the repercussions. You and your L33t kr3w hit a website, haxxor the heck out of it, leaving tags and props to your LAN-party buddies. 24 hours later, some guys (the webmaster and HIS "kr3w") drive by your suburban evil genius hideout and pump a few clips into your mom's Ford Explorer. Try explaining THAT to her.
Freedom: "I won't!"
like there aren't already enough out of work web developers.
. . . competition that will work for crack.
"The crows seemed to be calling his name, thought Caw."
Yes the Web development scene is clogged with medocre talent. But what does it take to produce a mediocre web page for local business? I live and work in Milwaukee. This town is deeply segregated. There is little investment in historically "black" neighborhoods. Black kids are shot and killed nearly everyday and most everyone just turns thier heads. The police and the city have had a hands off attitude to many of these neighborhoods for years.
These kids did'nt turned to gangs because its cool there was nothing else for them and ANYTHING that offers and opportunity for the youths in these depressed nieghborhoods legally is excellent.
They way people have responded to this in the messeges displays how IT is NOT color blind. Frankly I'm appalled. Maybe some of you should come out of the comfy burlap playpens in your glass boxes and go look at the real world once in a awhile.
If your so concerned about producing more mediocre web devlopers why not donate some of your talent and time being a mentor.
I know you are looking for programs outside Milwaukee, but Strive Media is another one in Milwaukee that provides tech training to Teens. They are non-profit however.
Honestly, what better lesson to give anyone that even those jobs that look like a fast-buck, aren't ...
And pardon my prisoner demographic profiling here, but isn't that a well-deserved lesson to be learned among ex-con's?
"He who questions training trains himself at asking questions." - The Sphinx, Mystery Men (1999)
This is what I was wondering. Why would they want to flood an already saturated(or near saturated) market. There are already 12 Ma and Pa web developers out there using Frontpage that make it hard for professional web developers like myself to find business. Businesses that want quality web pages and know what they want come to us, but we never get any small projects because of groups like this.
/pointless rant
Pat
Humans are slow, innaccurate, and brilliant; computers are fast, acurrate, and dumb; together they are unbeatable
Nice thought, but this isnt going to help, i mean, come on, there are tons of un-employed web developers out there right now. This might give them a skill, but it does not help them find a job, and in a field that has been hit with so many layoffs and job cuts, i would think that this would end up pissing off most of these new students when they got out in the real world and tried to apply there new-found talents in an industry, for the most part, that doesent want/need them.
I will bend your mind with my spoon
Teach them programming, not a useless career like Web Development.
What good is more web developers when theres no Web Economy? Kinda stupid eh?
I say teach them programming because then they'd actually be able to get a Job.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
They took a bunch of homosexual pederasts from the public parks and washrooms and taught them how to code PERL?
Right now most nations spend billions of dollars every year filling prisons with people who sit in cages all day watching television. Those people then get released years later, with no new skills, severely damaged social skills, and no real contacts other than criminals they met in prison.
Imagine if, instead of being locked down all day, the US prison population was educated. Classes all day, homework all night. Give them job skills. Rehabilitate criminals into functional members of society so that when they get out they know how to do something other than be a pain in the ass!
Of course, is most of the world this will never happen, because prison building and maintenance is now an important industry, and rehabilitation of criminals is detrimental to construction companies, their employees, police unions and their members, as well as prison employee unions and their members. Welcome the the twenty-first century, where deprivation of human freedom is a commodity.
I've seen dozens of these stories: retrain prisoner/welfare/vetern/disabled to become IT wizard. The training companies then get big grants from the government. Tech how to use all of MS-Office or program in Visual Basic or hmtl. Late night and day time ads on TV.
I hope it helps. I hope these companies are realistic to students about the saturated market.
Well it depends on your definition of "decent paying job". I think you're confusing "decent paying" and "high paying".
What's a reformed gang banger going to get a legitimate job doing? Suppose he/she has been Livin tha Gangsta Life(TM) since a young age, and maybe doesn't have a solid education beyond, say, elementary or junior high. What options would be available? Fast food? Secretarial work? Telemarketing? Various forms of manual labor? Now, what do jobs like that pay? Minimum wage? $10/hr? $17/hr after 25 years?
Now look at a low paying web job. What do they pay? $35000/yr? $40000/yr? It's decent.
I was a project manager at a company called CitySoft back when it was just 7 employees. It has grown significantly since then. Part of the growth was due to limited initial funding, we had to grow organically from new business. More recently, infusions of modest amounts of VC (some from the like of Esther Dyson and others) have allowed expansion from the initial Cambridge/Boston location to NYC and Baltimore.
My experience there was on the whole a very positive one. We were successful at finding talented youth from inner-city Boston and getting them trained in basic web development tools and techniques. At the time this was Front Page and Photoshop. While I protested FP somewhat initially, I came to realize that the almost immediate ability to contribute the the company's work that FP allowed was more valuable than FP's notable drawbacks. Part of my role as a PM was in some respects to filter out some of those issues. Towards the end of my time there we began using Allaire's Cold Fusion, and I suspect that the developers probably get some training in that now.
As with any operation like this, there were some problems. For most developers, this was their first experience of gainful employment in their lives. The friction between their new 9-5 lifestyle and their situations at home caused difficulties, as did the fact that old habits die hard--frankly, some of these kids had never been required to perform diligently and consistantly in their lives. The coat and tie dress code was another area of complaint (and not just with the developers I managed). In essence though, that was the real challenge of the company: changing the outlook of these kids from one of entitlement to one of empowerment. While most normal businesses don't need to confront these social aspects of employment so acutely, CitySoft's mission and hiring policy required it. Nick Gleason, the CEO, had done a good deal of homework on how to attack these issues, and had some solid ideas that he brought into practice.
In hindsight, I was lucky to be a part of such an organization. The fact that the company seems to have lived through the
--cleetus
(The also do darn fine web development work too. It's well worth giving them a shot.)
I think that is a highly bigoted and insensitive comment. These people didn't have a job. They now have a livelihood. And what do you -- who have a job have to say? "How many more ebonics web sites do we need." Look at their client list. Have you even bothered to look at their work? Where is the ebonics? Go back into whatever cave you came from!
He had some limited computer skills, but his probation restrictions only allow him to be a gang member, or an actor. Kinda the same deal eh?
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
Talk like that will get you branded a "racist hatemonger" faster than you can say "politically incorrect", and golly gee, who wants to be politically incorrect these days?
In Soviet Russia, Chuck Norris will still kick your ass.
I was on my knees in the stall of a roadside bathroom giving yet another 10 dollar blowjob in '97 when the guy admitted he didn't have any money but did have a spare copy of 'teach yourself web publishing in 10 minutes' he could give me instead. The rest, as they say, is hi$tory!
It is interesting to me to read some of the comments being posted that almost flat out say ex-druggies should say in the allies and not return to a more socaly acceptable life. I was raised in suburbia USA, and I saw kids I went to school with hooked on drugs, (no not prozack,) and alcohaulics starting in 7th grade. I also new of people who were damn near death from overdosing on whatever they had avalable. Yet when it came time for the parents of these kids to realize what the true situation of their little Billy and Susie, the whole damn PTA, administration, and neighbors of them were all for "saving them from this tradgidy."
Then I read some of the comments here saying ex-druggie scared for life, put them back in the ally, don't lift a finger and piss on thoughs who do.
How many of you have a co-worker that drinks a litte too much when you go out for a beer, or is a social "smoker" of not normal tobacco, or has the sniffels year round? Same problem, diffrent environment, diffrent victoms of the need to feed the addiction.
The main diffrences here are some wear a suit, and some wear a bandana or a baseball hat at a certain angle. Some have the money from their job and can fit into the sociaity that will willingly put on blinders and some need to mug someone for $50 in a sociaty that is willing to tollerate it becaue they feel helpless to change it.
I can laugh at some of the joke put here about ebonic translation and whatnot, but I am not in favor of "they're trying to get out of the gutter, where's the firehose?" comments. Look coser to home and realise that there are a lot of posers in the IT field already. I know that you probably know someone who doen't pull their own weight, but can smooth over the boss like a mirror polisher at NASA. I've seen consultants who pull more out of their ass in a one hour meeting then a sheep farm will produce in a year.
Give them a chance before you condem them to the hell they may have been born into or so close to they addopted their ways to survive. Have you even seen what they can do as far as coding or have you labled them before they have a chance reach for the "any key?"
Human Resoures is the department that does the hiring for a reason - they look for the skills and weed out web developers from the financial guru, but the IT manager needs to feel that the canadate is capable and adaptable to the enviroment. If they can telecommte, they enviroment may not be a factor.
Think before you speak, and look closer before you judge.
Please forgive my spelling as there is no spell cheker in the posing box.
Who wants Pork Chops?
The point here is empower these kids with some skill that will provide a return to the community. Were not talking about creating websites for GE starting a dotcom here. learning web development opens pretty much the whole realm of IT to people. How mnay of you learned programming, troubleshooting and a host of other skills just creating a simple HTML wep page.
/. for more than a year now I have rarely seen any social issues that touch on race. Well this topic has certainly uncovered the vast amount of racial ignorance on this board.
From reading
... bishop jumps queen... pawns jump queen...
GANG BANG!!!
evil adrian
.... is "So now the porn stars ar emaking their own websites?"
I can't be alone here
Great - now I'll have to put up with co-workers that say stuff like: "Shit bizatch, that muther-fuckin' Linux be phat!" ;-)
No kidding. I lived on ramen noodles for 3 years in college. Average monthly food expenditure? $15.
This included ramen enhancers such as eggs, pepper, green onions, and chicken.
A bunch of gang bangin' niggaz trying to learn HTML. I think not! Chances are, if they had the slightest bit of aptitide, they would not be killing people for a few bucks. These people are beyond help. Salvage their organs, ditch their souls.
20 years ago, I was a drop out of a dutch teachers academy. Basically back than there were no mid-level CompSci schools in holland. It was University or down in the dirt witht the electronics boys.
I was neither interested in the Zen Of Computing as taught in Uni's, nor interested in the art of making a perfect metal rectangle with no tools other than a little metal scraper (one of the first assignment in Electronics)
I was interested in Software, and how they can help Humans work better. That has been my hobby ever since the first pong machines.
Hacking spectrum games, writing PacMan in Spectrum BASIC that stuff.
After two years of dabbling in all sorts of odd jobs, the "Arbeids Buro" (labour office) had programs for people without a permanent job for two years, in a very broad spectrum of educations.
These progams were basically steam courses, in my example, system engeneering and software support. But they had loads of others.
Nowadays unemployement in The Netherlnds is dealt with a personal involvement of the officer in charge of your unemplyement benefit.
To, of course, make sure you Mr. UnEmployed get back to work asap, and stop draining public money.
As a help, they STILL offer to pay for just about any training or education there is availeble. Just To Get You Employed Again.
This has worked remarkably well for me, and suspect does so for many others.
Im happy as a well payed sysadmin nowadays, mostly "growl" -windows- but increasing the support for nix based systems. I love my job! I make good money too!
These incentives are excellent to put slightly de-railed people back on track. And as such save the community lots of $$
Gr Richard
American Youth Works is an alternative high school in Austin, TX. I don't know what it's like now, but back in 1994 (then called American Institute for Learning: AIL) they had a T1, a lab full of PowerMacs and PCs and the first copy of NCSA Mosaic I ever saw. And on top of that they actually employed some of the better multimedia talent in the city and taught classes in Photoshop, Director, Premiere and HTML. Very cool stuff. More info: http://www.ail.org/
Here in the Netherlands I was teaching something similar. Here we had a programme for unemployed people (but not nessecarely gang members..) to become webdesigner or webengineer. IT qas quite an extensive programme, including subjects like html, javascript, dhtml, flash, photoshop, coldfusion, asp, webservers/operatins system basics, and I have seen many of my students who had few computer experience become rather good webdesigners, making websites that looked good and were viewable with any browser.
..Microsoft Sales Rep? I don't think they would need too much training.
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
Theres a program in Massachusetts that takes disadvantaged youth 16-24 (usually highschool dropouts) and provides food, shelter, etc, and has a program to train them to be Solaris administrators. Most students coming out of this program are Solaris certified (part one), sometimes part 2 too. Though, lately there have been major problems finding jobs... The program is run in part by Sun but no guarantees are made about jobs, just an interview. Theres also been budget cuts.. They no longer provide books, just photocopies. But the program works... Just dunno the use of it anymore. As far as I know, the only one like this is in MA.
Pardon me for saying this, but isn't that just a tad racist? I hope that you're joking and I'm just being dense.
The people that are in this program are trying to change their lives - shouldn't we give everyone a chance without fear of ridicule? We all tend to pre-judge people (we're such a silly species) but isn't it about time we grew beyond that reactionary and atavistic response?
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity. - anon.
In New Orleans, we have a program. It takes diplaced thugz, and redifines thug$ to turn 'em into Cash Money Millionaires ( now how ya wanna be talkin' bout killin' an all that. . .)
TROSA stands for Triangle Rehabilitation Options for Substance Abusers and is a fabulous model of how drug rehab programs can work. Founded around 1995, they're based in the Research Triangle area of NC, and currently have over 300 participants in their residential program.
Here's the idea. Participants, after qualifying for the program, live on site, dorm-style, for the 2-2.5 years that they are in the program. Discipline and scheduling are tight (not much idle time for them to fall back into old habits) and contact with old friends and family are limited. During their time in program, they learn trades by working in the 7 different businesses that TROSA runs.
TROSA gets only a small portion of its funding from governmental sources. The majority of its funding is raised by running businesses owned and operated by TROSA: masonry, moving company, laundry, painting, catering, landscaping, and others. While the participants work, their "salary" goes into a savings account that is given to the participant upon his/her graduation from the program, along with a car, a shared apartment, and job placement services. This way, not only are the participants rehabilitated, but they're actually given a head-start on their new life!
Having volunteered with TROSA in the past, and having seen the enormous progress made in their 6 years of operation, I'm convinced this is a worthwhile model for other programs to follow and that job skills training needs to be a part of any program that seeks to help people get on with their new lives so they don't lapse into recidivism.
What about the kids that bust their butts, stay out of trouble, but cannot afford college? seems like a good idea, very nice, best intentions and all... but there are tons of hard working good kids out there that don't get a chance for lack of funds. i say we focus on them!
prisons are supposed to be a punishment, aren't they?
...and selling crack down on the corner pays $35000-40000 a week. Gee, this'll keep them off the streets.
of the song "The Day the Music Died"... Only now I am thinking of "The Day the Web died".
I think I'll go disconnest my Server now. I do not want to see one of these pages.
--Forest C. Adcock--
This is something that slightly pisses me off and is a little off topic. Don't get me wrong. Teaching people skills and hopefully keeping them out of trouble is a good thing. But hello? The web development area is flooded right now. Great, give them some skills so they can feel like shit about not having a job even with their skills. Which brings up the next thought..
It pisses me off that the tech schools and certificate places that I hear about on the radio are talking about how many jobs there are out there. I wonder what they tell people when they can't get a job. I know, I know.. there are jobs out there. You just need the skills. But I know a lot of people out of work right now in the web development area. It's not a fun place to be at this time.
K, done ranting.
-Frijoles-
Sound familiar?
speaking about the article that shows drug addicts becoming programmer...
Sorry, but I think i will stick to the old fashioned way of hiring... find someone with a degree or some higher level education, and the skills that they did not learn in 6 weeks or whatever it is.
So, I hire Mr Snoop Dog turned Techno Geek and he writes an infinite for loop. Great, now it's time for me to discipline, but hey I got a wife and two kids to think about. What if it pulls out his Gat and Caps My Ass, then what?
No thanks, not for me. It's people like this that give the name "web developer" a bad reputation. I have been doing this for years, and now I consider myself a "Software Programmer" as to not be assoiated with this genera, and all those damn kids who swore selling dog bones (pets.com) over the internet was going to make us all rich.
Peace, I am out.
After all, it worked for accountants.
-- "Complacency is a far more dangerous attitude than outrage." -Naomi Littlebear
could lend a new flavor to the perpetual vi vs. emacs wars. "Three dead in office shootout apparently sparked by religious differences, film at 11..."
Do slashdot readers know of any similar programs in other places?
We have a similar program here. I believe its called MCSE. Basically people with NO tech skill whatsoever can finish the course in a few weeks - and are then qualified for a variety of jobs such as:
- Win2000 administrator
- Senior level IIS developer, microsoft
- Cable monkey
- Solitaire player
- Dancing girl for Steve Ballmer
Could you please find me a training for going from Web developper to Gang Banger ?
It'd be much more interesting in my present (single)condition 8)
It states in the article that the kids have the option of being programmers or being helped into colleges and other programs. Any intercity program that helps lower the crime rate, murder rate, gang membership is a good thing. Helping kids help themselves into being an asset to society instead of a number in a prison is not something to take lightly.
Everyone at some point in their life had some sort of influence that helped them along. Be it advice from a teacher, some news story or article, parent, or friend it got you where you are today. I see nothing wrong with giving these kids a different path to follow. In the end it will be up to the kid. If he/she stays the course and changes their life or fails. I'm just glad that someone is trying to help.
Goran
Carpe Scrotum - The only way to deal with your competition.
Yo. Slap a piece a the pork, drink side run the java.
-Airplane.
I don't care what they do, whether they're javascript-happy or lynx zealots (if you want a text-based browser, use links at least -- it's multithreaded so you don't have all those horrible little pauses and it actually has the best download manager I've ever seen), but they must do it properly.
If the font tag is that great for you, use valid HTML 3.2, but I would recommend XHTML 1.0 and CSS. CSS has many advantages over the font tag and the like that are important, but I will omit for brevity. Needless to say, separating structure from apperance is good, because you can concentrate on making your page first, then making it look pretty later. In adition, if you've ever had to change many different font tags because you didn't like the size of your font, you'll be happy to know that CSS cascades so that you only have to set something else once, and every element under it changes likewise. Even then, I rarely use style like <span style="blah">, because simply specifying styles as classes works much better when I want to deviate for the style I've already set for whatever element I want to change.
Whether or not they can spell, I don't care, but please don't force browser writers to keep guessing at what the page author means by his mangeled html. It's very annoying and causes different browsers to do different things, which most people solve by using javascript detect scripts. Those are unneccesary, because if everyone would just adhere to the W3 standards and use CSS (which can do a lot of things that javascript is often used for), you wouldn't need all that junk.
Yes, I know, using vim to hand edit a page is a bit scary at first, but I will never understand people that claim to be able to write web pages, but have never seen html in their life, much less know what valid html looks like. The best part about editors like vim are, is that they support all version of html, javascript, etc., and are free.
Join the Slashcott! Stay away entirely Feb 10 thru Feb 17! Close all tabs to prevent autorefresh!
Here in Seattle, I've worked with a similar program. This one is kind of a 'last chance' for highschoolers who are one step away from dropping out completely. These kids are chronic troublemakers/truants who've been booted from both regular highschool AND secondary school. Most of them are gangmembers, and several are teen mothers.
What make this interesting is that the program pays these kids to come to school and learn technology. Every day, most of them show up to learn the basics of computers, web design, etc in the hopes that it'll help them get on the right track with a good job.
For my part, I volunteered with a friend to give workshops on how to use Macromedia Flash. I was kinda nervous and didn't know what to expect--I just had this stereotype of rough gangbanger teenagers. However, they were very polite and for the most part completely intent on learning. In addition, nearly ALL of them were very bright and picked up flash far quicker than I ever did!
Programs like the one in the posted article and the one I worked for here in Seattle are amazing opportunities to help people who just havent had the breaks in life, but have a ton to contribute. I would love to see them expanded.
-s
- - - - - - - -
Don't worry, being eaten by a crocodile is just like going to sleep in a giant blender.
"If so, what type of qualifications do you think they would require before allowing someone to help teach web design?"
....
:)
1. Ability to stand upright, atleast on occasion
2. Should be able to follow simple directions, verbal or nonverbal will do.
3. Ability to use keyboard and/or mouse
4.
No wait... this is the qualifications list for a 1,000,000 monkeys writting Shakespear on the internet, sorry.
-Couldn't resist a jab at the web monkeys
Comedian Bobcat GOlthwaite said such criminals like gang bangers should be working in the Army, citing "These are the ones with experience!". "I'd rather have Manson out there fighting for our country than some kid who couldn't get a job at burger king"
"So now the porn stars ar emaking their own websites?"
Yes. At least one is.
this gives new meaning to "job security"
:)
we'll never have to worry about it again...once we hire the ex-gang member, the whole company will be protected.
or would his old gang buddies come after him for betraying his roots? Or rough up company execs so they could get the guy a job. Hrmm....at least they're not on the streets
|---------------|
practically an AC
Oh give it up! If you can't take a little humor, unplug your computer and lock yourself in a closet. Why is everyone so worried that they might offend someone these days? People like you make me sick.
that's what happens when you take away their guns and give them a computa
Web development is easy... anybody with half a brain and a cock and do it. Hell, even my 90 year old grandma is doing web development.
what about us jaded and burnt out programmers? who is creating a program for us to turn to a life of crime and hit the streets popping caps and offing rival members and shit so that we can have some excitement in our lives? Try GTA2 (warning: massively Flash-bloated but official site).
>Well it depends on your definition of "decent
>paying job". I think you're confusing "decent
>paying" and "high paying".
I think you're confusing "job" with "". Sure the pay can be decent, but with millions of out of work web developers (most with experience), it's hard to imagine these kids will get a job in a deeply super-saturated market. I sure can't, and I'm being forced to consider McDonald's just so I don't lose my house.
Suddenly I feel like precipitate.
Like we need more inexperienced web developers!
Teach them a skill they can use: WELDING.
I'm serious. I make a six figure salary in Seattle as an engineer architect. But in this economy, dang! I may be falling back on old skills and chipping slag soon!
if i go through the program backwards, can i go from deveolper to drug addicted alley dweller?
e0-
Yo, luser, imma 404 yo bitchX, when I kill niggas I kill -9 'em.
Send lawyers, guns, and money!
Why teach these kids web development? If we want to teach computer skills why not C or Java with some SQL and corresponding RDB theory thrown in? People with these skills are allways in demand, and can always stoop to web development when needed. I can hear all the "Webmasters" whining already about that last statement, but let's face it, a good programmer, and a good designer/artist working together always produce better results than a jack of all trades type HTML/CGI "web-developer". So teach these kids to code or design not just web-development because it sounds cool!
For example. I could be poor and not in a gang. This program does not apply to me. This applies to those that are rehabilitating gang members.
Other example. I could be a suburban punk who joins the gang out of rebellion, boredom or evil intentions. This program does apply to me.
Welfare programs may not be applicable. Rehab progams are not for poor people they are for criminals! Big difference. But this is not about poor actually. I would think this community should be able to separate classes from each other. Anyway. anything that keeps these punks from out of the loop and learning something is good. Web Devel could be a gateway to other things. Not all will take to it, but some will just like we did. Saying that it will be a great success or a great failure is premature and a failure to think critically.
http://cincyboys.blogspot.com/ Everything Cincinnati. Including the word 'Finnih'
mwahahah one step closer to the end. Go Linux! (It's free, so it's gotta be good)
So, one day a week for the better part of a semester, I came in and walked these students through HTML basics. They never touched front page, but by the end of the quarter, I would consider them competent to render any written document into cleanly coded HTML.
The sad part was the places I couldn't go. The administration opposed installing any new software to support this once a week project, and so, in absence of Photoshop (no I couldn't even have gimp) we didn't cover graphics design. I spent a lot of time on my home box putting together packets of buttons and backgrounds. It allowed students to mix and match a bit, and gave me the ability to discuss some design issues, but I never really had a chance to let them start the ball on the graphics end.
At the end of it, I had a pile of student Counter Strike tips pages with staggering good information, but the majority couldn't distinguish between "Cool" and "Professional". But, I chalk that up to it being high school.
Knowing a bit of HTML may never get these kids a real job, but, they have learned a bit more about how the web really works. And who knows, it may have inspired them to go further into computing. (Or they may have decided geeks are wierd, and they should just stay away.)
If I can't see it in Lynx I'm not interested.
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
I'd rather the government didn't take the money in taxes in the first place, and then let me contribute personally to projects like this that I could support (and not support things that I think are a waste of money).
"Biped! Good cranial development. Evidently considerable human ancestry."
There's an unforseen issue here. It's the one where hardworking people see that their efforts are useless. All of these kinds of programs and projects undermine the people who have worked to get where they are.
Think about it. Why should you struggle to pay for college, someone will train you for free. Why should you work, there's always welfare. Yes these people need help. Yes we want them to be self sufficient. Yes we definitely want our bodies and our property to be safe. But we don't want to undermine the people who got there on their own.
The people who work hard and do the right things to get ahead in life without direct interference are the best resources we have. Those people won't exist if we keep telling them their efforts are useless.
It's just not as straightforward as people think.
I'm sure there are people who'll think this is a troll, but it's not intended that way.
Here's a link to a "rehabbed" gangbanger
There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
I see. Hmmm, should I take out a student loan to attend Penn State, or should I sell crack in front of the police station so that I can get my free degree from the state penn?
Why should criminals get their education paid for by taxpayers while honest folks have to pay for their own education? Why stop with web development? Why not expand that to things like aeronautical engineering?
Want to teach them something? Teach them how to sweep litter off the sidewalks or pick up roadkill from the streets. Leave web development to those who have some software development skills. After all, not everything can simply be whipped up in FontPage.
I would argue that programs like this are failures.
wouldn't it be better to make them Exchange/Outlook Admins?
Seriously! It is not dissimilar to punishment to administer that crap and then people who know what they're doing won't have to touch it!
This
Imagine if, instead of being locked down all day, the US prison population was educated. Classes all day, homework all night. Give them job skills. Rehabilitate criminals into functional members of society so that when they get out they know how to do something other than be a pain in the ass!
You are assuming that most criminals *want* to be something other than a pain in the ass.
Some will, certainly.
Many won't.
Problems occur when, as happens every few decades, someone has the bright idea that *all* prisoners should just be "rehabilitated", and then sent out into the world as productive, honest members of society.
Any real scheme should take into account the fact that a large number of people in prison are truly criminal - inclined to committing crimes - and will continue to do so. Help the ones who are interested in being helped, but don't assume they all will be.
The primary purpose of prison, IMO, should be neither punative nor rehabilitative - it should be to keep the prisoners from further harming the rest of society.
1) Look at "web design" as a means to an end. These kids are gaining confidence in their mental skills (rather than violence). They're tapping into thought processes (i.e. technology, programming "lite") which they may not have been exposed to in school.
... did you wind up getting a career in your college major? Some, yes. But many, no. College is a process of socialization where students learn "soft skills" as well as the stuff they're being taught directly in class.
Maybe they won't all end up as web designers. But think back
I see this program as the same thing. The former gang bangers are being exposed to the general world of technology, and communications, and business collaboration. Web design is merely the medium of transmission.
2) The Internet has always been a place for communication, where, whether you're a single person of a multimillion dollar corporation, you can facilitate discussion and learning through nearly infinite nodes blah blah blah (insert general pro-internet statement here). The program gives these kids the tools to build a community on the web. It is an empowering feeling to know you have a voice in the morass.
Gangs are strong, vibrant, alluring communities that provide a sense of belonging. I'm not saying that a discussion board or website could ever hope to supplant a gang. But having a way to express oneself (through web design) may very well alleviate *some* of the hopelessness that drives kids to gangs.
I know that the overwhelming majority of slashdot readers are pasty white, suburb livin guys but to many of the posts I've read are some of the most racist shit I've seen outside of alabama. The fact that these kids are poor and lack the opportunity of parents or other support structure that have the means to provide them computers and pay your way through school doesn't mean that they'd be any less capable or deserving. I may not have been in a gang but I come from the same background. I've never graduated from highschool but I make 75K a year now and own my home because I was given the opportunity. It's not about "is web developer the best job", it's the exposure to technology and the opportunity of maybe getting even a tech support job where they'll have a change to learn and advance (that how I started).
/. need to get a ****** life and quit dis'ing EVERYTHING.
People on
there are too many white Christian heterosexual males in IT.
There, feel better?
Go on, look it up on google... maybe it means something different in the USA to what it means here, but I thought it was funny... :)
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
In hard times people tend only to make money selling two things:
1. Banned substances.
2. Sex
I'm actually surprised more web developers HAVEN'T turned to pimping and drugs lately.
"Look at me, I invented the stove!" -- Ben Franklin
Nice moderating, chucklehead.
Embarrassing.
How many HTML coderz do we need on the market. There are plenty of people who can pick up Frontpage and do that. When I think of web development, I think of companies that demand dynamic, database, multi-tiered sites. I think of companies paying big bucks to CS grads for the back end and Design majors for the front end. This isn't the 1990's anymore...
Here Here! Mod this up!
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
For those that it has succeeded for - it more than likely won't last long. Think about it - this person could go sell crack or whatever and make a grand in a day (on a bad day) or they could work for two weeks and make the same amount. Now I'm not saying that everyone will go back to selling crack, I'm sure that there *are* people who realize that being a web designer is a better living enviroment than a gang banger (not to mention it's not illegal) but this is what makes rehabilitaion so damn hard.
If you buy in to the poverty-->crime arguement this should actually happen.
Watching Cowboy Bebop in my jammies, eating a bowl of Shreddies.
if so, what type of qualifications do you think they would require before allowing someone to help teach web design?
1. You need to be able to fit into a the std size bullet/stab proff west. Very skinny/fat geeks, will eighter walk around with the west as a skirt, or they wont get it on.
2. You need to be trained in self defence. Ninjas Perfered!
3. You need to grasp the gangbanger language. So when you student is complaining that the webserver is acting "wack!" youll understand what he means.
All jokes aside, this program seems like a great idea. And I wish it all possible succes.
One has to wonder whether the life of a web developer is preferable to gang member.
Yes, I did do web development. *sigh*
"The general contract of the method run is that it may take any action whatsoever." -- Java 2 API
One day, it's illegal extortion and con artistry (the Pigeon Drop, the Boston wad, etc)... after jail, it's legal extortion and con artistry (Venture Capital, hey,there, these shares'll be worth $500 each in a year! Buy now! Why did I sell all mine the first day? Uh....)
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
That's not true. Your average dealer on the street is not making that kind of money, he kicks up almost all of his profits to his supplier. Can't find the link now, but if you do a little research, there's some interesting academic papers that prove that most street-level dealers are actually making below minimum wage.
But you get to set your own hours and be your own boss.
Anything you can do, I can do meta.
Honest livings can be had in contruction, washing dishes, taking out garbage and what not that requires little trust. This is what criminals should end up doing. If they want to do more, and pay for it, good for them and good luck. Trade organizations realize this. You can't get so much as a plumber's liscense if you have a criminal record, and that's the way it should remain.
The damage to the IT proffesion's reputation is secondary to the real harm well trained criminals can do. Yes, dishonest people can and do aquire skills. Every learning institution and every proffesional organization tries to exclude the dishonest, but nothing's perfect. Programs like this start out with the dishonest and train them up. There is a much greater probability of these people doing harm with their knowledge because you have selected the worst of all people to start out. Gangs trained by police departments in Los Angeles have a record of being nothing but stronger for the effort.
This is very backward thinking in a country that will keep "hackers" away from computers forever.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Will kiz-ack your ass back to kindergarten, yo. Accounts Receivable ain't for amateurs!
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
The ability to be creative or to write good code is not dependent on social background or education. There will be a few of these guys who have real talent, but have never had the chance to work with it. They should be given all the help they need to reach their full potentiel.
Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated up.
Here are the facts on punishment and deterrence:
"Does Punishment Deter?"
http://www.ncpa.org/bg/bg148.html
I know a few people are going to call me a linux zealot for this, and I'll be modded down, but discovering a "whole new world" like this happens all the time when people discover Unix.
Me? I'm started off as an EE. Hardware guy. I couldn't make heads or tails out of software. I hated working with computers (win3.1 and win95) and thought that any job with them would suck.
Fall '97, I transfered to U of I (that's Illinois, not Iowa). Found out that to read my email, I had to log into a system that ran Unix (which I thought had died out somewhere around 1975). Soon, I had it mastered. I became 1337 when I took shell scripts to finger all your friends rewrote them in perl to print out neat little tables in color (using VT100 codes).
It was just the beginning. Soon, I got a job teaching new students how to use Unix. I borrowed a couple RedHat 5.2 disks from a TA, and installed them (what I consider to be the largest upgrade I've ever made). I learned vi (learned some emacs too, but am not proud of it). And I'm a changed man.
I finished out my EE classes, but went and got a minor in CS. Now, I work at [bleep] using my perl/C/shell skills and am busy forgetting about CMOS and opamps and the like.
Life is fun. I hope these chaps coming from the prisons find it as enjoyable as me.
Free unix account: freeshell.org
We do give them a chance. It's called a library.. they have the freedom to learn whatever they want but they choose to spend it doing other things. There are more deserving people than criminals to give these oportunities to. Pre-judge a gang member??? Don't make me laugh.
For starters, I am an employee at Homeboyz Interactive, the company reported in the article.
;)
Just wanted to clarify a few things. The students who go through the program are not simply taught how to launch Dreamweaver and click their way to a Web site. They go through about nine months of training ranging from HTML, to JavaScript, PHP, databases, data modeling, use cases, etc. We provide more skills to these students than most of my university peers seem to have! We are just starting to use Java to deal with some of our larger projects where PHP becomes a burden.
Think again if you're worried that this is just another basic class in WYSIWYG HTML editors... you are very wrong
"professional web developers like myself"
you claim this and your webhost is geocities?!
bhahahahaha
Why don't you help even 15 lost youth find gainful employment? And then everyone on Slashdot can help 15 former gang members find gainful employment. Based on your user number, if we all help 72 gang members find something to do with their lives besides waste away, that makes at least 1,290,165 kids in this country less likely to accidentally kill you or other innocent people in a drive-by shooting gone wrong.
I, as a person that goes out to all of the tough neighborhoods as a news man, sees this kind of truth every day. There are those that want to make it. When they want to, they will. Life will improve when you have your own counselor that buys you things and gets you jobs. My mother's best friend is a social worker, trust me, you just have to see what they go through to understand. Its incredible. Most civilized, educated people can't do their job. Its incredible that the first domestic terrorist attack didn't come from disgruntled social workers, who tried to save society, and then as a mercy killing tried to destoy it.
The hard fact is that most of these people that many say want to work to get a good job are out to fulfill their parole... and that is about it. That is because they are prolific liars. You have to be an excellent liar to feed yourself without working. Its called game. You need to be "played out" once to see what it is like. I allowed myself to get played once to see it. It is a terrible, self-consuming life.
A lot see this as a white/black thing. If they think that, they simply need to turn on Jenny Jones and Springer any given day. That will knock that skin color thing right out of discussion.
I would love to see a million poor climb out of poverty and get a great and wonderful job, but that just isn't going to happen. Those who see it up close know it by heart and by rote.
Mostly, the poor are so magnificent at modeling laziness that they destroy themselves. They won't pay the electric bill on their homes. Why? Dad didn't. So why should I? Dad is still here. So they heat with the stove. Then they won't pay the gas bill. Then they're cold. Then they won't pay the water bill. So then they smell. Then they spend all of their money on junk food. Making them hungry. So then they turn to crime.
We catch them.
We try to rehabilitate.
Guess what? They did it to themselves.
Why?
They stopped going to work. Never came back.
For most of us, work is like breathing.
Most people carry cell phones to check on work at home or on vacations. You know, to keep their jobs in good standing.
These people steal your phones and check on their dope dealers, then sell them your phone.
Then we tell them to get a job (this is where our
Who is going to give a job to a person that is so stupid that they can't light, heat, clean, or feed themselves?
Usually, social workers get one shot at a business. They come in with the humanitarian approach. The business accepts. Then said smelly, useless worker sells office supplies out the back door (or worse, maybe their main product that comes up missing) to old criminal friends. Business finds out. Never does humanitarian work again. Social worker, ever positive on helping, shops for a new business victim.
That is why there are precious few places left that even take rehabs. They are all tapped out in this country after thirty years of that Berkeley-Commie ridiculousness. Now you have to give businesses incentives so that they won't take a loss with them, or REQUIRE IT BY LAW. So they do it. And the cycle goes on.
LATHER, RINSE, REPEAT.
you are paying for them now. but instead of educating them so they have at least a chance of be something other than a burden to our society we are doing nothing with them. when released they have little to no options so they go w/ what they know. considering the only things they learned in their years of incarceration was how to deal w/ criminals and tricks from the same it isn't suprising that we have such a high reoffender rate.
over the long run i think education will cost us less and has the possibility of raising the bar of our society.
ej
Boo hoo!
Looks like the extortion racket has gone sour....
I mean, geez, all those small projects keep cropping up that don't need a heavy weight dude who walks in in his cowboy hat and sais 'I'm the admin'...
It's indeed frightening. You're the new version of the paranoid dude in the glass house from the era of the death of the mainframe.
We're happy that you're so frantic.
I think you're painting an overly bright picture of the contribution/results of these programs. What kind of real results has your program had over the long haul? All the similar programs I've seen have been pretty much a flop over the span of, say, 5 years - the target population usually has more problems than just "lack of opportunity" that make them less than desirable employees in a field that requires constant self-directed learning, a high tolerance for change/chaos, and solid ability to interact professionally with others. These programs tend to focus on teaching some techniques (perl, html, etc) and leave the students completely unprepared for dealing with their knowledge being old & out of date in 2 years.
I envision east coast/west coast style Emacs/Vi battles.
I can almost hear the Script Kiddies... no, Script Playah's saying: "Word, yo! Emacs be tha muthafuckin gleem bling bling! i get all up on that, and then I be rollin on my 20s wit my posse bringin up tha linux rear, word! Where the cristal at?"
Heh. That funny, I've been a programmer for 6 years and I still don't show up on time! Hmmmm.... I wonder if I have a future in gang banging.... :)
"One man can change the world with a bullet in the right place."
- Mick Travis, "If..."
Hey do they have a program like this in NYC? If so where can I sign up?
In other words, the economically disadvantaged should be denied a higher education. You, on the other hand, were born into a social class at least high enough to get you a student loan, so congratulations, you get to be web developer.
You are not proposing a solution. You are proposing the maintenance of the status quo in order to preserve your own superior station.
Education is a debt that society owes to itself. Stop treating it like some privilege you inherited.
Please donate your spare CPU cycles to help fight cancer and other diseases
I'm trying to pay off my student loans now, and its going to take at least 9 more years to do so. Its not fair to give people in prison all of that for free.
People make choices in life. Some people choose to go to school, some people decide to do drugs and be a thug. Prisons are horrible places to live, I give you that. But these people committed crimes, and they should have realized what prison was like before they chose to go out and commit a crime.
And if you think people that murder and rape others can come out of prison rehabilitiated, then I just hope they move into your neighborhood rather than mine.
what a horror story to all the liberal whiners.
Ideally a person or group would develop a curriculum and then less skilled inviduals could teach the curriculum. This is the only way to have a large base of classes.
The facilitators should have mastered the curriculum they are teaching and be able to field any questions that may arise; or, failing that, at least be able to direct the student to the appropriate resources.
-hgh
"And remember, ~/ is YOUR hood!"
Right now most nations spend billions of dollars every year filling prisons with people who sit in cages all day watching television.
Most nations? I don't think too many inmates in Turkish prisons have basic cable, same for the other countries who run their justice systems the proper way-- by punishing their criminals instead of coddling them in some nice warm jail with plenty of food and TVs. Yeah, prisoners in the U.S. sure learn their lesson by having the state take care of them, and all they do is work in the prison laundry or something a few hours a day.
Imagine if, instead of being locked down all day, the US prison population was educated.
Imagine if, instead of being locked down all day, the US prison population (or at least the 1st -degree murderers and habitual felons) was executed. Then my tax dollars might go towards more worthwhile things than feeding, clothing and housing this subhuman trash, like maybe helping the families of their victims.
And none of this 'humane' execution nonsense. Use a wood chipper. Murderers dropped in head-first, and rapists and child molesters lowered in, slowly, feet-first.
~Philly
I'm doing web development . . . she thinks I'm still a Crip.
Someone you trust is one of us.
I am sick and tired of every person I meet at a party thinking they can do my job if they only spend 2 weeks reading the right book. "Oh, you're a programmer? Yeah, I'm gonna learn me that HTML so I can get paid like you do." Now it's going to be "Yeah, I hear they're teaching prisoners to do that computer stuff." Great. I wish there was some way to convince people that all computer jobs are not created equal, and that 'g0tz m4d computer 5ki11z' != 'worth paying a lot'...
is competition good, or is duplication of effort bad?
Then I'd get my ass arrested to get a free education. Seriously. Why struggle to work while going to school, so you can pay the bills, when you could sit in jail for free and get a free education?
MadCow
I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
meanwhile the failing economy is forcing thousands of real, but unemployed, web developers into lives of crime :)
Quote from the Washington State Penitentiary's homepage:
Various programs are offered including Adult Basic Education, English as a Second Language, and General Education Equivalency Preparation. Medium custody offenders have the option to participate in an Auto Body Vocational program and Office Technology course. The Main Institution offers offenders a Barbering program and Office Technology classes. The Minimum-Security Facility offers the Carpentry Program and community work crews that assist the community in maintenance and other jobs.
I personally have had several teachers in high school and college who teach or have taught classes at this facility on topics ranging from geology to psychology.
If you want to improve yourself in prison, you have options, it's just not compulsory.
------
Where are the slash-groupies? I distinctly remember being promised slash-groupies!
This explains a lot about Torg, dosen't it? His life as a gang member / prison bitch certainly prepared him for living with Bun-bun....
they had no workplace skills that emphasized things like showing up on time or calling in if they were sick.
Funny. Certainly I am not the first to notice that Industrial-Age schools and Industrial-Age prisons are very similar to factories in terms of set times and hierarchy.
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
Prison systems should offer some education. Many do right now. The ones in my state all have GED programs and thats a good start. I do think community college level stuff should certainly be offerred in prison, more so than now. The public already pays for that. I think motivation is very important for prisoners. If sentences routinely included educational components (no B&E can be released until they can read) or if education counted towards good behavior that would help. I don't think the fact that many prisoners simply have to be punished and warehoused can be ignored either though.
So long and thanks for all the fish . . . !!!
"what type of qualifications do you think they would require before allowing someone to help teach web design?"
What they would require is probably knowledge of Front Page and Flash, experience with Dreamweaver, and a degree in Graphic Design.
What they should require is no training whatsoever in "graphic arts", no experience at all with any "WYSIWIG" tools, a degree in Library Science, and extensive experience navigating the Web with Lynx. Being totally blind would be a plus.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
SO WHAT.. They will still all be considered terrorists under the USA act.
"Put a cap in yo ass and drop you in a body tag"
:P
I agree and disagree with what you say society owes itself. I do believe that a person should be provided every effort to obtain a K-12 education. Be it in public schools, JVS, prison, whatever. We should push to have 100% of students graduating high school or getting their GED.
Where I don't agree with you is on higher education. To attend college it is a more of a privilege than a right. Not just because of the economic issues, but since a college/university does not have to take every student that applies. Getting picked by a well regarded school is a privilege since that school was not forced to accept your proposal just because you sent one.
Perhaps in addition to the K-12 education they could get associate degree. And it could be paid for by a combination of federal/state money and money they would earn themselves. If they were in prison they could earn the money through work-release programs, in-prison work, etc. This way they do not get the education for free and if they truly want to learn they have to learn some job skills to earn the rest of the money needed.
So in addition to learning the technical skills they could learn some of the office/work skills that could prevent them from getting a job.
Then I'd get my ass arrested to get a free education.
No, you'd probably get your ass raped.
I think that training them to be web developers would give them the feeling like they could make lots of cash. Entry level computer jobs pay way more than similar jobs in other fields. It could make them feel like a productive member of society (for some it may be the first time). They could realize that on a computer they could do great things that would make them want to forget their old life.
Seriously, in seattle you can get -experienced- "web developers" from behind the counter of most fast food outlets. And would what we consider "decent pay" be "decent" to some gang kid whose been making a thousand a day as a runner for the local corner patrol? I love the economist (had to let my subscription lapse when the "e-economy" went south) but they clearly have little grasp of whats going on here (just starting with defining a "gang banger".-Bk425
Excuse me for a moment while I vent... First of all, the very basis of this country and the principles it was built on was nothing more than people finding second chances, and opportunities. Those principles are exactly what this program was built on. It gives people who are troubled, or mis-guided youths and helping them become seriously productive citizens, while enlightening them to the ways of the corporate world. Secondly, it is people like you with the opinions like you have that have put my people into the situation that we are in right now. More money going into correctional institutions, but less money being spent on diversive programs. One's history does not always mean they are destined for a life of crime. But rather one's attitude toward change is what can prevent them from making a change in their life, as well as the jerk-off attitudes of right wing fascists like your's. Finally, this program is about more than just turning black and hispanic bangers into programmers, but rather the developement of bright young minds who have been oppressed for so long by stupid restrictions, and ignorant people. Just a little FYI as well. There is no "felony conviction" prerequisite to enter into this program, we will not turn anyone with the desire to do something different with their lives away. It was simply started in the inner city to give people a better way. Not that you would know anything about struggle. Oh forgive me, I forgot your mommy probably took you off of the silver spoon when you were 8, that must have been a struggle. But I am not mad at you nor do I harbor any negative feelings, but I do pray that God will open your eyes that you may see the world does stretch past the gates of you 25 acre estate in upstate New York. God bless, Will4Homiez
1997 is over.
Assuming we want to help them control their violent tendencies...
--------
Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...
I'm actually surprised more web developers HAVEN'T turned to pimping
I have.
Dis be funky big G, typin' live frum www.bizzatch.com!
Today, inner cities across the nation have been enjoying an unsettling amount of peace and quiet. Gone are the constant echos of gunfire and blood curdling screams from gang conflicts.
In other news, Cert reports that web site defacement is up approximately 510%. Sites such as www.bizzatch.com and www.bitchwhatsmy.name are good examples of targets; they have been defaced with 'Yo nigga G-funk owns dis internet!' and 'Step up, biotches! H-Tml gonna rock yo house!'
And if you think people that murder and rape others can come out of prison rehabilitiated, then I just hope they move into your neighborhood rather than mine.
Most people in prison are not murderers and rapists (although prison is where most murderers and rapists are). Many people are there for nonviolent drug offenses. I hope they do move into my neighborhood, because it's incredibly difficult to score some pot around here.
re: "In hard times people tend only to make money selling two things: 1. Banned substances. 2. Sex"
Table-ized A.I.
So become a criminal, get caught, and you get a free education.
Just be a normal hard working person, and you get screwed, you have to pay your own way and get in debt.
I don't think it is fair that there is all this "get back on your feet" help for people who screw up, and nothing for people who just want to work and get a decent living.
Why shouldn't higher education be a right just as K-12 education? You can't get a very good job with just a K-12 education anymore. Everyone knows this. So why don't we extend education for the extra 4 years? Why should it be limited to those who already have the means to pay for it? Seems like it's those who don't have the means that need it the most. As for educating people in prison, I'm all for it. I can't think of any reason why we shouldn't do what we can to make sure that the people coming out of prison are equipped to do something with their lives besides commit more crimes.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
I did a volunteer project with 3 other students from my technical writing program at San Francisco State University. We produced some materials for GlideTech, a program run by Glide Church in San Francisco.
They evaluate each incoming person, who must first qualify by being off drugs, pledge to stay off drugs, and be below a certain poverty level. Daycare services are available for the students, and classes are scheduled at evening times for people who have part-time or intermittent jobs.
If students qualify for the technical programs (have a certain literacy level, etc.) they learn basic PC skills and eventually get their A+ certification. Glide also helps with job-placement and does follow-up.
Applicants who don't qualify yet for the tech program can get classes in English skills, workplace skills, and so forth.
All nonprofit. Non-denominational. Free. Requires commitment and standards of behavior, drug-free. An exemplary program.
-Leperflesh
I am allowed to criticize you: you are not allowed to criticize me. Sorry, that's just how things are.
Agreed. When I received my paycheck today the first thing I noticed is how much money was taken out for federal, SS and state tax. The last thing I need is more taken out to teach people for free what the rest of us have paid for dearly in one way or another. Prison is supposed to be a punishment, not a free ride. Granted, I'm sure not all prisoners are all bad, and I'm sure many deserve a second chance, but not at my expense, please!
"Your average dealer" is not a "gang banger". "Bangers" are people who murder employees of competitive distribution organizations. They may be selling, or running or doing other functions of their trade but I suspect they're pay is far from "average". And I gotta say I'll believe the minimum wage thing when you cite slap me upside the head with the sources ; ) Every step of the drug trade has profit margins that are orders of magnitude higher then normal non violent non monopolistic trades. From the Al Quaieda raw product transportation specialist in Afghanistan right down to the teen with the baggie in school. (Thank you drug lusers and WoSD!)
-bk425
Thats a good idea, just make the classes video based/cbts and those who don't want to learn, fine. But those who pass the exams get out sooner and can get a job.
hmm... for fun I enjoy launching DDoS attacks against 127.87.42.5
The market is crap right now. Only the very best liars and phony smilers get hired right now. I could better learn those "soft" skills "on the street" perhaps.
I think nerds should go to social school and socilites to tech school. They have it backward right now.
BTW, do they let you use laptops in jail?
Table-ized A.I.
"Want to teach them something? Teach them how to sweep litter off the sidewalks or pick up roadkill from the streets. Leave web development to those who have some software development skills. After all, not everything can simply be whipped up in FontPage."
That mindset is exactly the problem with criminal rehabilitation. Do criminals deserve to be repaid with kindness for their actions? No. Does treating them like subhuman scum do us any good in the long run? No.
If we are going to spend a fortune incarcerating people for long periods of time, we might as well make sure that they can be worthwhile members of society when they come out. It beats the hell out of them returning to life with the rest of us, angry and useless. I would rather a criminal leave prison with with useful skills and social graces than to have him leave prison and kill someone a few months later because he still does not know how to exist in a civilized society.
Seems like you've set up a nice straw man here, but let's try to get back to the original idea at hand. People go to prison when they commit a crime. They don't stay there forever usually. They are eventually released. Now, as it stands, they spend their time in prison learning new criminal tricks and probably developing some pretty bad psychological problems. So, what happens when they are released? Well, they are even worse off than when they went in. They have no new (legal) skills. They can't get a decent job. They are by all means second-class citizens. What's the likely outcome? They turn back to crime since they have no future.
The proposed alternative here is that we provide them with education so that they will have an alternative to crime when they are released. Nobody is saying that all criminals can or will be rehabilitated. But there are large numbers of criminals incarcerated for relatively minor crimes. They'll probably be in for 5 years or less. That's a lot of time that could be used in a productive way. We don't know what the success rate would be for such a program, but I think it's worth trying, simply because the possibility of improving society is worth the very little risk that such a program entails.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
I haven't ever worked with their graduates, but a colleague of mine recommends them highly. They've also been around a while and trained a pretty large number of technicians.
This is exactly the problem with academia. Arrogant fucks like you that think they have the right to hold back the world's precious knowledge, sharing it with only those they think worthy, continuing a depraved classed society that continues to reject what may be some of its greatest assests because they do not fit in. Imagine if Sagan or Hakwing had been born a poor black man who did poorly on standardized tests. Their gifts could be lost, because the academia refuses to stop believing that they are somehow better than those without.
I can tell you right now why we shouldn't spend money on educating in prison.
Because a lot of people who deserve and desire to go to higher education can't. Lets spend money getting those people into college before getting bubba and his girlfriend into Web Design 101.
And yes, I am bitter because this hits very close to home. Student aid, loans, scholarships are bunk. If a prison gets free education, I'll be rioting if I have to pay a tuition check. Even though I'm out of college now, my girlfriend is getting ready to enroll -- she makes just above minimum wage working with the handicapped because she loves her job. She deserves to go to school, which is something she desperately wants to do, and can't because she doesn't have the means.
Most prisoners already have a career. Hours are great, benefits suck though.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
You have absolutely no clue what US prisons are like, do you? I happen to know people that work in prisons, and one of my brother's friends happens to be in prison right now. It's a twisted, fucked up, sick place to be. You try to make it sound like the lap of luxury.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
When a be not puffin' on da la, a be codin in me endz.
Web development is off da chain yo -- when you build ya skillz an get a good job, it be much betta den da streetz.
If you don't self educate, da last sounds you be hearin is gonna be buck buck buck!
Rather than all or nothing, what about teaching *basic* skills. Not everybody is cut out to be a [fill in the blank] anyhow.
Give courses in basic english, business vocabulary, practical math, etc.
BTW, just about everything *can* be done in Frontpage. However, it is poorly factored for future maintenance in most cases.
Table-ized A.I.
Forget college, just join a gang, learn web design for free, and then start making mucho dinero without the hassles of a student loan, or 4 years of college... Sounds good...
So does this mean that we're more likely to see drivebys at Microsoft. Gates better lay low yo.
It's perfectly ok to slam on something that you know sucks but a majority of these posts are directed at stereotypes. And those are the same stereotypes that have computer geeks pegged as pasty faced, four-eyed (replete with tape holding the frame together), gap toothed, acne'd wimps that can't get a date to save their lives. You all know how unfair, ignorant, and downright wrong those stereotypes are yet here are literally hundreds of posts from people who I hope would know better than to cater to such stupidity. That kind of thinking displays as much intelligence as is needed to get around AOL.
Saying that those who have had lives impacted by poverty and gang-related activity have no place in the computer world is as judgemental as saying computer geeks are a bunch of code-loving, pocket protecting, game playing, no-life-having losers.
It's ridiculous to say that computer games made geek loser kids in high school shoot classmates. It's just as ridiculous to say that kids whose lives have been impacted by violence and want to change it can't hack on a keyboard. Have you ever seen their work? Do the posters of the "Bang you dead motherfucka!" messages know these people in person? There's no detail in how that organization works and there's even less information on the people involved so how about we all do our research before getting too happy with the keyboard?
I thought from the headline that this article would profile porno web developers...
bloody hell, not again.
I got an idea...
Instead of spending *even more money* on our prison population turning a trip to the cooler into a semi-vaction where society's thugs and hoodlums can hang out, pump iron, and chill with their friends, we make them work for their food and take away their TV.
After a long, back-breaking day in the fields growing their corn and beans, if they want entertainment, we can set up a lending program with the nearest library (since we're paying for the library anyway).
I'm quite curious where this idea of "rehabilitation" comes from, when the entire point of prison is to punish criminals and keep them segragated from society.
If recidivism is your worry, we can cure it. Chop the hands off thieves and castrate sexual predators. How's that?
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
I know a couple of people that have gotten well paying jobs straight out of high school, and I'm not talking about professional sports. These guys taught themselves their skills, worked for low pay just for some on the job experience and really sold themselves well to get a job. They had learned all they needed on their own or in high school and applied it to getting a job instead of spending the money on college.
Perhaps it was just me, but most of my job skills and tech skills were self-taught. The computer classes I took were not very useful or even applicable, but that was more likely a result of the CPS schedule. Additionally, if we were just going to educate someone with applicable "real-world" skills why would they need 4 years. Some of my classes at college were not directed toward my degree or even of interested to me, but I had to take them. If I were to strip all required classes and electives/minors out and just focused on the core program it would be around 2 years.
Now if they extended the federal/state/local paid schooling to include higher education would it apply to all people or just those that could not afford it? Do we not already do this through the various scholarships, grants and loans that are available for anyone who wants to attend college? I think if someone truly wanted to attend college but could not afford it could be given the chance through these programs. If not then, perhaps these programs could be expanded, but it should not be completely paid for by the government. I could not afford college, but through a combination of grants, loans, college job and my parents I was able to attend and graduate from college.
I just worry that when people are given all sorts of hand-outs from the government that they will become more dependant on the government to give them everything they need and not to earn it themselves.
I was *this* close to joining a criminal social club. Being poor and Mexican in Texas deosn't give oyu alot of choices. So while alot of Anglo's can talk out your arse about how with hard work you can make it, that's a big load. It takes more than work, connections networking, parents money for college. I would rather see More Poor kids get a decent education than a lot of rich school district kids the the best while the poorest get the worst. I got Lucky I was poor in a rich suburb. So back the truck up.... you don't know what it's like white boy!
All you want to do is punish, punish, punish.
These are some of the basic rules of why we put criminals in prison:
I can promise you, that even if all convicts where locked up in cells with television and computers, it wouldn't be a place you'd want to be. Locked up most of the time, up early in the morning, crappy food, some fresh air between 13-15, almost no outside calls, don't get to see your family and friends in some years...
The point is, that the prison IS punishing them. In USA you have quite strict prisons already, and it doesn't seem to help much on the crime rate. Why? When prisoners are released, they can nothing of value. The only things they can, are beating up people (with the muscles they got in prison), and not much more...
They probably won't go volunteerly in prison again, but they don't have any skills that they can use to make an honest living. They will steal again. But if they were able to do something productive, and earn a little more than needed to survive, they might get content, and don't do any more crimes.
In my country we give the prisoners a chance to learn something useful. And we have a lot less returning criminals than you have. Think about that!
"The assembler gave birth to the compiler. Now there are ten thousand languages." - Tao of Programming
Oh come on! They aren't gonna be sending them to Harvard! They'll get an education similar to what you would get at a community college. As for the fairness of it, I don't see the problem. We suffer as a society due to crime. If we can reduce the crime rate by teaching criminals to do something worthwhile with their lives, then it helps us all. Whining about the fairness of it seems really petty and childish.
Some people choose to go to school, some people decide to do drugs and be a thug.
I don't think you can simplify it like that. There are extremely complex reasons why people commit crimes. Sure, there is a point where they actually decide to do something illegal, but there is usually a long list of circumstances that lead up to that point and have a huge influence on the decision. Before you flip out and start pounding out a reply, hear me out. I'm not trying to excuse criminals for their actions. I'm not saying they shouldn't go to prison for it. I'm saying that life isn't fair and some people get a big head start and others start with their feet shackled. But we're all expected to live together and not break the law. The least we can do is try to keep people that screw up somehow from spiralling downward in a way that means they'll never be anything but a burden to society.
And if you think people that murder and rape others can come out of prison rehabilitiated, then I just hope they move into your neighborhood rather than mine.
I don't think anyone was saying that every criminal should be rehabilitated and released. I'm sure that many will still spend their entire life in prison. But there are many others that will be released at some point. Some after only a couple of years. We should allow them to do something productive with their time so that they will have a viable alternative to crime. I think that the benefits to society of such a program outweigh the drawbacks.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
This was the San Francisco Bay Area, circa 1995. We've got a bigger oversupply now at the end of the first dot-com boom.
Sounds like YET ANOTHER employment program put together by misguided do-gooders who didn't bother to check the job market before teaching the kids a "new career".
Tech Public Policy stuff
No, this is what they should be doing. But first I think we need to get past this "punishment" stuff. I mean, I'm as vengeful as the next guy, but why do we really send criminals to prison? To get them off the streets and out of our neighborhoods. You know, as long as that is happening, I don't care if they're in a recliner, eating a T-bone, getting blown by Carmen Electra, and watching SportsCenter. Bottom line is they are in there and I'm out here. What I don't want to do is pay for the recliners, food, blow jobs, and cable. They should pay for those things and they should be able to (well, maybe not the blow jobs). Shit, walkmans should be getting assembled by these guys. Air Jordans should be sewn together here. Then pay them in monopoly money. Oh, you want to watch that new movie? That'll cost ya. You want steak instead of rations? That'll cost ya. You want a bigger cell? That'll really cost ya. You want a college education? That'll really cost ya too. I can't think of any reason why a prison couldn't or shouldn't turn a profit and motivate it's "employees".
And don't say how you'd rather commit a crime and live in prison instead of the real world if this sort of crap happened. B.S. You are going to work harder for less in prison. No privacy. Guns aimed at you daily. You can't leave. Did I mention the anal rapings? (Shit, if I could "buy" my own private shower time, I'd be sewing together shoes like the sanctity of my arse depended on it) But, if all that still sounds like a good deal to you, then go for it. Like I said, it will be profitable, so either way you are helping out the rest of us.
Stupider like a fox! - H.S.
when the entire point of prison is to punish criminals
Says who?
It's obviously different around the world, but read the introduction to the US federal prison website for example. The word "punish" isn't used.
did you look at it? it's my bookmarks on the go. I USED to have a redirect there to my domain, but I just switched to LFS and havn't got apache/ANY webserver up yet.
Humans are slow, innaccurate, and brilliant; computers are fast, acurrate, and dumb; together they are unbeatable
He didn't talk racism when he got the job. Many people are annoyed here since crime levels have gone up and parking and speeding violations are starting to feel like harassment. Milwaukee is one of the most segregated cities in America and it is the only city who's murder rate has actually gone up in the past 10 years. This program is another example of not punishing criminals and treating them like friends.
I've been an employee at Homeboyz for just over a year. I'm a Computer Science undergrad fortunate enough to be paid to write open source software at Homeboyz.
Some posts have said things to the effect of "teaching people to use FrontPage to make web pages isn't going to help them get a job in this economy, and they take jobs away from skilled developers like me!"
We don't use any wysiwyg editors, and I've spent hours cleaning up Dreamweaver-generated HTML provided by local professional design firms when clients decided to stick with their old graphic agency.
To assume that people can only handle a point-and-click editor because of their background very narrow minded.
There are several "tracks" that trainees can pursue:
A frontend track covering more HTML, Photoshop, Flash, etc.
A backend track covering object oriented PHP, relational database theory, XML, CVS for version control, UML, Javadoc comments, the Linux/FreeBSD systems, etc.
Everyone is encouraged to reach their own potential - so not every trainee is going to learn all these technologies, but they will be exposed to an enviroment where people are willing to give them a chance to learn and believe in them.
We use Metabase for database abstraction and a complete PHP persistence layer wherein classes are mapped to multiple persistence mechanisms (different DB's, LDAP...) in an XML file. In many projects, we use a templating engine to achieve strict three-tier architecture instead of embedded PHP tags.
I've been continually impressed with the commitment to exploration of new technologies here, as well as the commitment to good architecture and coding as a craft.
We've been more into PHP because of it's easier learning curve, but are doing a project right now in Java as a test. Java development is a better skillset right now for job placement.
-Justin Knoll
http://www.dallasnews.com/business/columnists/alan goldstein/STORY.e9bc7d3f61.b0.af.0.a4.afa49.html
You know what's funny about this post and those people that agree with it (and modded it up to 5) is that you'd think from reading the post that no one's ever thought of rehabbing criminals. As though, through the perfect medium of the slashdot message board, they've created a brilliant breakthrough for our justice system.
Earth to hippy, these good-hearted, sooth-the-savage-beast programs usually fail. And the one's that work only work on the small scale. What usually happens is that some local, fluke success in rehabbing a dozen really motivated first-timers is blown up into a nation-wide mandated plan to rehab everyone. And it doesn't work, because there's no motivation on the part of the prisoners or the people in charge of rehabbing them.
Now, if they never went to prison in the first place, because they never committed a crime or had the need to... Say if we had better schools because we payed teachers what they're worth... Say if we decriminalized drugs and drug use...
And please stop saying that prison is cushy. Do not take freedom for granted. Only a nutter (and apparently some slashdotters) would commit a crime for the free education in prison. Not only are you not free and subject to whatever trauma the prison guards and your fellow inmates have in store for you, but your diploma says Penn State Prison on it and not Penn State.
Sweat
It breaks my pluginses, my precious!
That would almost make me want to go to prison. Prison should be a place NOBODY wants to go to. A lot of criminals probably don't mind going to prison because they know it's not too bad and they'll be out soon anyway. It should be a hellhole so nobody would want to be in there.
"The Economist is running an article about a program that takes gang members in Milwaukee, sends them through rehab, and teaches them web development."
Dude, watch your terminology! At least where I come from,
gang bangers != gang members
Gang bangers are people who take part in a gangbang, which can mean anything from n-guys-and-one-girl consensual sex to group rape. Either way, it's probably not what you meant.
Domestic labour expects raises and competes in a fair market place. It's better to hire an H-1B who in fear of deportation, won't ask for more money.
This idea, although sounding fairly well, shouldn't be any target for opinion because we as a mass on a widely trampled network hardly know any absolute truth on this program or it's founder's motive. I have a neighbor whom was recently fired from this guy whom always seemed to sponsor such altruistic programs. One may be saying that he had a good reason to, but his reason was just to save his socialpathic ass from budget cuts! Now my neighbor is heading to Austrailia, but thats off-topic. In brief, such motives that seem good but for actually wrong reasons cannot be easily seen until late. Let's hope that this program actually exists, isn't abused, and is headed by someone truely altruistic. But then again, what is altruistic?
I suck hun. Muh! Muh! Muh!
I completely support rehabilitation efforts to make more people productive members of society, but... do we really need a glut of entry-level web developers right now?
There's already more than enough mediocre HTML talent out there. No company is hiring Frontpage jockeys for $60K/yr anymore -- at least, no company that will still be around in 2 years.
Why not teach these kinds some skills that aren't tied in to a temporary fad in a volatile industry? Something like ad sales, or accounting, which doesn't have the buzzword prestige of "web developing", but there's plenty of demand for and always will be.
To find similar programs nation-wide go here or search with google.com on "community action agency". (I just applied to teach at one.)
"The History of Community Action Agencies" is given here. An excerpt:
"After the assassination of President Kennedy in November 1963, President Lyndon Baines Johnson expanded the policy ideas initiated in the Kennedy Administration and, in his message to Congress on January 8, 1964, declared the "War on Poverty." In August, the Economic Opportunity Act of 1964 (EOA) was passed creating a federal Office of Economic Opportunity (OEO). The EOA included new education, employment and training, and work-experience programs such as the Job Corps, the Neighborhood Youth Corps, and Volunteers in Service to America (VISTA, the "domestic Peace Corps"). Congress bypassed the state and local governments and provided for direct funding of community groups; the community action concept was empowered.
While the federal OEO was to lead the efforts of the War on Poverty and coordinate related programs of all other federal agencies, the Community Action Agencies (CAAs) were to fight poverty at the local level. Across the nation CAAs opened in neighborhood centers in storefronts, housing projects and other buildings in low-income areas where they identified people who needed help and were eligible for assistance."
"Be thankful you are not my student. You would not get a high grade for such a design
first there's NAFTA and a whole bunch of cheap canadians.
then there's the increase in the HB1 visas
now we're going to empty the ghettos
anything to keep my salary down
And you are completely wrong. You might wish to take a pass at reading the article before posting. From the article:The things to note here are many:
1.) Drug treatment is available to anybody, for free.
2.) Note the distinct lack of the word "criminal" anywhere. That's because he isn't targeting criminals.
3.) Getting a full-time job on your own plus six months of studying for (essentially) a GED doesn't sound like much of a free ride, now does it?
4.) Those who don't become programmers get helped to find community college or job programs, both of which are, again, free and available for everybody.
Now, next time you go spouting off (or responding to someone spouting off) you should at least be informed. These people aren't getting anything that anyone else can't get, they're not getting a free ride, and they're learning a valuable skill that will likely prevent them from becoming either criminals or corpses. So quit your bitching about the unfairness of it all.
Virg
"Low paying Web jobs" pay nothing, because there are no more Web jobs.
This program is backward. It should be training former Web developers to become drug dealers.
> People change, yeah, and some kids in gangs are just confused and
> need a chance, but I know too many uneducated, good hearted people who
> bust their asses at a minimum wage job every day to try and pay the bills
> and feed their families to fully get behind giving criminals the
> opportunity that some law-abiding Americans won't get.
Is it really so hard to read the damn article? Where did it mention "criminals"? Where did anyone say he's recruiting from prisons? The answer is that it doesn't.
Read the article.
READ THE ARTICLE.
READ THE ARTICLE.
Then, comment on the article.
Virg
Actually, television is becoming common in prisons all over the world as a tool to control inmate behavior. Television quickly becomes an inmates only timely connection to the outside world, and many are happy to just shut up and stare at the screen all day. When a prisoner does act out, the television is taken away, severing the prisoner's link with the rest of humanity. This technique is cheap and effective, and is a much easier way to control prisoners than violence, or throwing them into the proverbial "hole."
In hard times people tend only to make money selling two things:
.mov
1. Banned substances.
2. Sex
I'm actually surprised more web developers HAVEN'T turned to pimping and drugs lately.
Well, keep in mind.... Many people who were in the industry before are only qualified for wage-labor jobs that require drug testing.... and Well, i'd say a considerable portion of us wouldn't know sex unless it came with the extension
One, I was not aware that the industry was short of web developers.
Two, why do we assume that these kids want to become web developers in the first place? Is the only reason why we want them to get decent paying jobs because the fact of the matter is that everyone but white people actually takes their paychecks and circulate that money back into the economy?
Three, whoever said this was a good idea obviously lives in fscking cave. This is far from the solution to a problem you are not even aware of.
BTW, I am from the poor side of town, I did not go to college and now, I am a killer SysAdmin. Sucks having to go to college, doesn't it?
ChozSun
ChozSun.com
I think there's three possible reasons:
- The US just has higher standards -- other nations are willing to put up with more crime and disorder
- We unfairly criminalize harmless people, and/or have unfairly long sentences
- We have a disfunctional society that creates a disproportionate number of criminals
1 is the only positive reason -- but of course it's also absurd. Both 2 and 3 seem more likely to me.If the prisoners don't deserve to be in prison (or at least not for as long as they are put there), then they do deserve an education. It's the least we can do for them, even if it doesn't make up for the injustice done on them.
If the prisoners are products of society, then we (as a society) would be well served to try to reform them, simply because it is incredibly expensive to keep someone in jail and because even in jail they will often cause instability in society -- prisoners will often still have friends, family, and children whose lives are disrupted.
I can't help but feel how absurd so many people are being because they're subscribing to stereotypes it's just plain dumb. First of all, I have to question the validity of any argument based on a stereotype (the smae one, mind you that's got computer geeks pegged as lame, pocket protector, acne'd, fat, Lara Croft loving wimps) and moreso, I question the validity of anyon'es intelligence for believing it enough to write messages. Do they know how ignorant they sound?
It's just a dumb idea.
Sounds like just another touchy-feely idea from the left. Take criminal and give them skills to migrate to a different sort of crime.
Put them into the military instead. This way they learn discipline, get some training, and are seperated from the creeps who got them into crime in the first place. It's amazing how basic training can reorient an immature punk with a chip on his shoulder.
Either way they improve their act or get fragged on the first live-fire mission, and if they return to the 'hood, they do so with a stronger self-image than any amount of positech training will ever give them.
Fast machines, powerfull AI, impulsive invention,... All I lack is a good espresso machine!
> But what translates to Cowboy Neal?
why, "Mofo" = CowboyNeal, of course!
Virg
However, I don't think you should blame the prisoners for this. They most certainly did not choose to go to jail. Someone else chose it for them.
You could argue that they implicitly chose it for themselves when they committed the crime. But when you consider that most of them are there for nonviolent crimes, at some point we should consider why the law is criminalizing so many people. Any one person may be responsible for their actions, but when you look at the larger picture we are all responsible -- it is our society, we made it, and we as a society should do something about it. Almost no one seems to be willing to do that, though... mostly they just whine and find scape-goats.
The most offensive form of this is people who would have children tried and convicted as adults -- an action that is both absurd and so immoral as to be unforgivable. But that's another issue.
Why would you assume that "Gang-banger-ese" means Ebonics? And "evil children"? So, not only must gang bangers be black, but the people he recruits must be criminals (gee, the article never mentions the word "criminal") and they're all evil as well.
You've got a lot of nerve talking about bigotry. And "bigotous"?!? You've got a lot of nerve talking about English as well.
As least I can guess at why you're single.
Virg
Besides, the fact that it's reformed kids doing the work makes a great marketing tool. Add talent, dedication, and honest-to-goodness skills and these so-called "new carreers" the kids get at places like NuEdgeSystems, Amoco, and the work they've done for LeMond bikes, Marquette University, the city of Chicago's Commercial Club and Civic Committee, and the Anne E. Casey, Betty Brinn, and Petit Foundations and you have one hell of a set of players on the field that you can't count out.
I remember very well a little event in elementary school that changed my life forever. I had grown up in private school until grade 4, but eventually I guess it was getting too expensive and I was sent into the wild world of public school for the first time starting during the fifth grade. Now, since, until this time, I was always taught to try hard, be good, and be the best person I could be, you can imagine the little hell that I found myself in that year...
Anyway, I slowly learned the ropes, but I was still what one might call a "good kid". I didn't chew gum or talk or pass notes, instead I just tried my best to learn and not be a trouble maker. There were two girls who sat next to me, however, who were definitly not "good kids", at least by the elementary school rules of a decade or two ago. They were always laughing and talking and telling jokes, despite the teacher's constant warnings and threats to "put thier names in the book".
Anyway, this went on for a while, and eventually the teacher had a brilliant idea. She decided that for every day that these two girls did NOT talk, they would get a coupon. If they collected a certian number of coupons at the end of two weeks, they could have a pizza party with some of thier friends after school.
Now, for all of you thinking that this novel approach was the way to go, you are sadly mistaken. The next effect of this was that:
a) the girls didn't shift any more towards the "good" side, but instead found better ways of concealing themselves so that they could get the coupons.
and, most importantly, b) I learned that being "good" got you absolutely nothing at all. I was completely ignored bu this teacher. Being bad, however, gets you pizza. From that moment on I was an encouragable student...
If you are going to start giving perks away to those who are bad, you will only be teaching people that there is no reason to stay out of trouble. If you want to go around handing out web training, start with the people who DESERVE it first.
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!"
And would what we consider "decent pay" be "decent" to some gang kid whose been making a thousand a day as a runner for the local corner patrol?
Factor in the fact that he's a lot less likely to get killed or arrested, and it might start looking better. Not to mention the fact that I don't think low-level dealers make that kind of cash. My step-brother used to deal, and he didn't make anywhere near that much (though when you're 15, it seems like a lot). You have to be higher up on the food chain.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
It's true that these guys do HTML but that's only the tip of the iceberg. Like you said, not all computer jobs are created equal but if you were to actually write these people and find out what they do, you'd be able to find at least 2 people in there who do one aspect or the other for the IT industry...everything from system administration to application coding to designing.
And while not all computer jobs are created equal, talent does dictate how high you rise to the top and your success rate. the fact that these guys have been around for a long time and actually know what they're doing and have the portfolio to prove it shows a lot.
They've done websites (static and Flash) for Marquette University and the City of Chicago's Civic Committee and Commercial Club, they've developed applications for Verizon Wireless and The City of Milwaukee's Public School Systems, have a cooperative project with the Milwaukee Institute of Art and Design, and have created multi media presentations for Northwestern Mutual, The Anne E casey, Betty Brinn, and Petit Foundations, and a whole hell of a lot more since I've known them.
The kicker is, these guys are getting better and they're expanding.
He's right, mod this up!
> but I don't think there should be an inherent reward for committing crimes.
I'll keep saying it until you all get it. Read the article. There's no mention of "criminal" anywhere. This guy doesn't recruit from prison. They're recruiting off the streets. The fact that they remind you of homeless people in Portland only indicates that you don't comprehend what you read very well. Unwed mothers can get the same break that these kids do if they (according to the article):
1.) Get drug rehab if needed.
2.) Get a job on their own and study for a GED for six months.
3.) Decide to be a web designer.
If you want to spend your time teaching unwed mothers important job skills, more power to you. Just bone up on your reading comprehension skills, and start volunteering. But don't badmouth this guy because he's doing what he feels is right to help his community and you think he's targeting the wrong group.
Virg
But there they are 2 years after I have learned that fact and they're going strong making websites (static and Flash, database driven and not) for such people like LeMond/Trek Bikes, Marquette University, UW-Milwaukee, Northwestern Mutual, Amoco/BP, and the City of Chicago's Commercial Club and Civic Commitee. They're also developing online applications for the likes of Milwaukee Public Schools, Verizon Wireless, and they're making they're own content management system that's more complete and well tested than most of the CMS's I've seen by far...and they haven't done anything criminal with them.
They laugh at WYSIWIGS about as much as they're probably laughing at the massive amount of ignorance flying around this discussion and while people are busy lambasting other people who are actually doing something productive and good and actually succeeding in reforming lives.
And the've been around for more than 6 years now and they're expanding when everyone else is pretty much having a hard time.
Well, it's "pasta" and "antipasto", so there's no worries, mate.
Virg
At the Fund for the City of New York, we train quite a few at risk youth, both in rebuilding computers, HTML/graphics, and building useful sites.
I've seen a lot of cynicism and joking on these posts, but what these kids get is empowerment.
No, they will probably not become overpaid web lackeys. But this might be the first legitimate skill on a resume.
Most kids who get involved in gangs do so because of economic desperation and a failed public school system. They understand the risks of their careers far better than any of us, and the majority of them will leave a life of crime if something better comes along.
If you came from some neighborhoods in Northern Manhattan, where our students come from, you would actually get some sense that learning HTML would provide an enormous sense of accomplishment. Which for people with an 8th grade education, it is.
lambda = h/p
I have been attending Homeboyz Interactive (HBI) for over a year, now.
I completed training in HTML, Photoshop, JavaScript, Cascading Stylesheets, DHTML, PHP, and MySQL/Database (we hand-code only, so we actually have to know what we are doing - and why).
I have managed a project from the requirements and definition phase, to deployment. I have
followed and understood the Rational Unified Process (RUP) methodology, and made use of the Universal Modeling Language (UML) to develop detailed use-cases and design prototypes for an HBI product.
At Homeboyz, we are getting the full scope of web development, not just the basics. In order to "graduate" or get an internship, you must know what you are doing and have the motivation to do it. No one is forced to come to Homeboyz, you do it if you have the drive. There's a lot to say, but I have a lot of work to do here...peace.
I guess I'm moving to Milwaukee then, because they sure as hell aren't hiring experience monkeys here in Manhattan.
LS
There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
Actually, one of the bigger problems with academia are the miserable fucks who don't try and who waste the time of people with gifts. What's wrong the the education system is not that there aren't enough people in it, it's that there are far too many. What needs to happen is getting rid of all of the people who don't want to be in school. These are generally the people who create the bad social environment, who practice physical abuse of their classmates, who slow down a class.
If you get rid of all of the people who are of average intelligence or below from school, then the system would work much better. Right now an absurd amount of time is wasted on things like "functions and algebra" in college when having calc I should be the norm. Every class should be what are called honors classes now, and there should be no remedial classes.
In short, if you want to get the poor black man who is a genius into academia, get rid of the idiot who's currently taking his seat.
Of course, juding by your post, you're probably one of the people who are taking up the seats of the intelligent people, but oh well. Sacrifices have to be made.
> tons of money on training, certifications and years of effort only to end
> up having a "reformed" cold blooded murder/drug dealer/gang banger, that was
> set up and funded by our tax dollars through some government subsidized
> program, sitting in the cubicle right next you because your company wants
> to snag a tax break.
Maybe you got a job as a web designer because you can't comprehend what you read. Now, Where are the terms,
""reformed" cold blooded murder/drug dealer/gang banger"
"funded by our tax dollars"
or "government subsidized program"?
Can't find them? Neither could I. They're not convicted criminals, they're not being trained on tax dollars, and it's not government subsidized. From the article:And,HBI Consulting pays the training tab. Now, don't you feel a bit foolish?
> Instead of studying, taking a second job and busting my rear end tracking
> down alternative education funding, I should broken every law in the
> book -- sold drugs, shot people and operated in a criminal conspiracy. I
> would have less debt, gotten more tail and a free education in the
> same career I have today.
Perhaps, but not from this program. Again, from the article:Now let's see:
1.) Drug rehab programs are available for anyone, for free.
2.) Getting a job on your own and studying for a GED for six months doesn't seem like a free ride to me.
3.) Community college and job-placement schemes are also available to anybody, for free.
4.) He doesn't recruit from prisons, and isn't seeking reformed criminals.
Sorry, but your statement doesn't make any sense here.
> God, I am such an idiot.
You said it. I only backed it up.
> And to the question of, "Well, what you have them do?", the answer would be, "Sit in jail."
They weren't in jail in the first place. This program is to keep them from ending up there.
I'll say it again.
Read the article. Read the article. Read the article! Then you might be able to comment on the program intelligently.
Virg
I get the feeling that most people think that college should be the only way for people to "rise up". Why is that again? And why is this a "special right" again? Some people think it is a special privilege to not walk down the street at night in fear.
I couldn't afford college either. Unfortunately, I didn't qualify for loans for some reason either (Later I found out that I was apparently a bit too honest when filling out the forms. This was explained to me by a relative that works for a big college and deals with that sort of thing every day. Hint: don't fill in anything that isn't mandatory). I've had a job since I turned 16. Usually manual labor type jobs, at least until I was about 21. Then I had managed to save up enough for a semester of community college. I took classes at night and worked during the day. I'm still taking night classes (though I've had to skip a couple semesters), and someday I might even manage to finish my degree. I finally managed to get in on the bottom floor of a good (consulting) company (as a temp at first). Eventually I got hired on and I'm trying to build up my skills so I can keep advancing towards the job I want. The company pays my tuition now.
I really wish that I had been able to go right into college full-time after high-school. I think that given the importance of college today, it should be available to everyone, regardless of whether they happen to make it through the mess of the loan/grant system. If we want to keep progressing as a country, we really need a better education system. I happen to think that the current system sucks and isn't really helping to prepare kids for the world they will face when they get out of school. They memorize a bunch of crap for tests, but they don't really understand how to apply it in the real world. From what I understand, there have been studies that show that the methods used to drill these facts into kids for the tests don't have much success in creating lasting memory. They take the test and forget much of what they memorized after that since it isn't linked to anything else in their mind. I'm more of a believer in teaching kids to learn rather than the current method of "teaching to the test." I hope that America wakes up to the need for better education and begins to demand it.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
i was fairly sure that if you have the potential to be involved in gang bangs, your probably aint the introverted computer nerd type...
"i was saying gnu-rd"
Lets see pay $500 for web design classes at local jr college, or get caught painting your name outside the 7-11 and take them for free. I know which one I would choose. Do we really want to teach trouble makers how to use a computer and turn them loose on the net?
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lombotomy
Most prisoners already have a career.
What do you know about prisoners? How many do you talk to regularly? I'll tell you right now that many of them wouldn't be where they are if it weren't for the fact that they came from dirt poor families and lived in places that are as dangerous as some 3rd-world countries. You learn a whole different view of life when your own life is constantly in danger.
I know I wouldn't have been able to learn much if I had to go to a school where I was afraid of being attacked and possibly killed (the high schools I went to were bad enough for me, I can't even imagine what would have happened if I'd gone to a "bad" school.) There are a lot of problems that we don't address in this country. There are a lot of kids that don't really get a chance. A lot of them end up in prison. I think they at least deserve a real second chance. Just tossing them back on the street when they get out isn't even a chance.
As for whether it's fair or not, I think you're right. It's not fair. But neither is the fact that some people are born rich and others are born with nothing. Life isn't fair. This program could help some people out that had even less of a chance than most. That said, I agree that we need to do more for everyone as far as education is concerned. Education should be the foundation of this country, but instead it's just another thing for politicians to squabble over when election time rolls around. It's pathetic. The whole standardized testing crap pisses me off too. It's not teaching kids anything! They memorize crap and then forget it all after the test. They never actually had to use the information for anything, so it doesn't stick with them. I could go on and on about this, but I think you get the point. There are a lot of things we need to do for education, offering it to prisoners is just one of them, but I happen to think it's an important one. Perhaps if such a thing does come to pass, we could then use it as a lever to get more funding and common sense injected into education for everyone.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
who has time to read /. articles. it just best to look at cmdrtaco's summary and then read +5 comments. that's where i get MY info
I have gone to college. I have seen how it works. There are no scantron tests here (homeboyz). There is one on one attention. There is research that must be done on one's own (not from a textbook). You have to get a 100% on a test before you can advance to the next lesson. You have to show up. I took an economics course at a large college, read the textbook, showed up for exams, and recieved a B+ in the class. Ask me if I am qualified to be a junior economist - don't think so.
You have to KNOW what you are doing before you can move on - isn't that a tough education, but one that prepares for the real world better than most colleges?
Can someone remind me, again, why education shouldn't be free and open to all? Oh yeah, so we can keep some people unskilled and uneducated and then complain about the "troubled youths".
A friend of mine who worked at a homeless shelter in San Jose over Spring Break a few years ago indicated that the shelter there had a computer lab where guests could develop marketable skills. Then again, San Jose is one of those places where you could make $40,000/year and still be homeless because the cost of living is so damned high, so it may not really be analogous to this program in Milwaukee.
"It take 9 months to bear a child, no matter how many women you assign to the job."
Probably a lot more than one would think, or realize. More than I would really want to. Out of all the people I know that are convicts I'd say less than 10% of them had the desire to get their life back - and most of them have accomplished it without free education. The one that I know that hasn't is not mentally capable (not sure what happpened, he won't talk about it but brain damage cause during his prison stay)
I'm not talking about kids either, and in the original thread it was about prisoners - not just children prisoners. I fully advocate a vocational education system for juvenile prisoners. Most 25 year old 3rd time offenders arent going to give a rats ass if he knows HTML or not.
If, people who are dirt poor had a good chance to go to college without committing a felony to get there - this discussion becomes moot. That is why I am for free-education, and against prison-based free-education. Worry about upstanding or at least non-felon citizens first.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
> Why struggle to work while going to school, so you can pay the bills, when you could sit in jail for free and get a free education?
No matter what your education cost you, spending a few years in prison isn't worth what you'd save. If someone told me I could have a million dollars to be in prison for two years, I'd turn it down in a heartbeat.
I've never found anyone who has been in prison who would disagree. That alone should tell you quite a bit.
I've found that nobody who hasn't been there has any real idea what it's like. Your statement bears that out nicely.
Virg
Oh, yeah everyone making 60 g's in an office is so tempted to beat people up and take their lunch money.... Economic situation creates criminals.
Do YOU have an e-commerce job? Tell me then what the difference is between a rap music fan site and an information site on chemistry?
For all of the people complaining about how much time they spend at college and the cost of it, etc, give me a break!
College opens up an entirely new world of learning for many people. When enrolled, you can take classes in ANYTHING that you want to! Information that your community or family did not want or allow you to learn is at your fingertips. Information that your crappy public school taught you poorly is there to be relearned, but effectively. If you decide to change you major/minor, you can. You also leave with a degree that supposedly proves how much you know.
Homeboyz is a place for learning about others, yourself, communication, and web development. It can open up a new world for many. But, it does not "take the place" of a college education, and does not offer the diversity of courses and events that college does. think about it.
The people here at Homeboyz are working very hard. It is a year or more of training. You have to get 100% before you can move on. You can't just skip it cuz you feel like it. There are no scantron tests. There is no winter break, summer break, or spring break. when you say you've been here a year, you have been here a year - every day. The time spent in training is time not paid at a job, and there is no financial aid or grants to pay rent/bills.
Please stop whining, you can attend Homeboyz too.
Ok im sorry if that offended you. Would you like to suck my hairy cock instead? Im sure some mutual beneficial compromise can be reached. English is such an ugly language that without Euphemisms, we would be lost. What I mean to ask is: do you suck dick?
I work 40 hours a week, barely scraping by, paying for tuition, eating ramen...
YOu mean if I go kill someone or vandalize their property, the state willl put me in a state facility, give me 3 squares a day, and *give* me the education I'm currently paying for?
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
That's complete bullshit. Fuck that bullshit. It's a fucking goddamned shame that I fucking work, sometimes 2 jobs, to pay for my education and pay for my rent and pay for my fucking computer and pay for my FUCKING LIFE and here's some poor, misguided fucker who gets it for free? Where's *MY* fucking free education? Where's *MY* fucking free education with study time without having to worry about rent, utilities, and shit? Makes me want to go fucking deal drugs and shit.
This is the kind of bullshit that makes me angry. I never hurt anyone. I never smashed any windows, spray painted any fences, pimped any women, smoked any crack, fenced any stolen goods and.. Jesus, if doing that shit gets me a free fucking education and JOB PLACEMENT, what's the fucking downside? I get pumped in the ass by some fucking asshole down the hall? Hell, in this economic climate, I might end up doing that for cash ANYWAY. Fuck this.
Sure, it's a fine idea to train gangstas to "bang" out web pages, but it's not new. We've been seeing the results of programs like these for years, but without recognizing them - our co-workers in corporate America. For your consideration...
Ever wonder where sysadmins come from? The Repeat-Sexual-Offender Rehabilitation Program - they took the most recalcitrant rapists and molesters in our prison systems and trained them to provide system administration services for corporate IT/DP organizations! Keep that in mind the next time your sysadmin smiles and tells you your access has been revoked and your backups have been lost - things will make a lot more sense.
Still don't believe me? Want to know how those drooling dolts running your eBusiness group got their start? Thank the EMFLP (eBusiness MBAs for Lobotomy Patients) program. Based on proprietary research demonstrating that the lack of an intact frontal lobe doesn't significantly decrease the decision success-rate of an eBusiness manager, the daring EMFLP initiative provided a constant flow of warm bodies into the management layers of the Fortune 500, just in time for them to help those businesses devise their e-strategies and avoid being left behind in the dot-com race!
And how could we forget the humble origins of our favorite class of recycled misfits - the software developers? Only the most carefully planned, highly efficient organization could salvage these diamonds in the rough! With only smart kids for raw materials, this finely wrought system of enforced peer ridicule, complete lack of intellectual stimulation, disillusionment to authority, and stultifying bureaucracy forged droves of insecure, egotistical, but beloved software developers. To what bastion of betterment can we credit these brilliant results? Our Public School System - "Boring the brightest minds since before your parents were born" (SM).
So now, when G-Dog sends you his next website update for release to the production server, muttering "betta' reconize ma' skills, biotch!" you'll know that he's just one among many of your co-workers who've benefited from these wonderful outreach programs that help us change our lives for the better. But if you're handling the production release, you must be a sysadmin, so you already know this... No, I will NOT come with you into the server closet for a minute! Hey, don't touch me there...
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Not everyone gets a chance to do something good. And we never given people who are trying to do a good job and busting their behinds trying to get things done a negative vibe, so why are you knocking us? I had to work 3 jobs, finish my High School, and show up to Homeboyz everyday, an in a milwaukee winter and no car that was no fun. We all have to pay our dues. You think that just because we get a chance to making something of ourselves we get the easy road. Even now I am trying to finish paying of my bill from college so I can get my trascipts to go to another school. Don't think that this comes easy. There a lot of people in this program that are busting thier but working a third shift job and coming to train here. I don't want to sound like I am complaining I just want you to relieze that we all have our hard time in life.
Most of the criminals that i have met in my life are white and middle-class! All the cocaine/marijuana users/sellers I have ever met or heard about are white and middle-class, many of them doing it while getting through college.
It's funny how the people getting caught for most offenses are not white and also they are poor and also they serve more time for the same crime? Hmmm.
Many people can't get into college, and much of that is due to poor schools, poor parenting, and walks to school that witness violence and drug-use and poverty (doesn't make a child pay attention too much to a history class that is pretending this is an amazing and fair country.)
*don't eat the new roasted chicken flavor ramen.
If, people who are dirt poor had a good chance to go to college without committing a felony to get there - this discussion becomes moot.
True, and as I said, I'm all for that too. But that hasn't happened yet, and it would be very wrong to just write off the lives of those who are already in prison.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Good thing that Sagan and Hawking were not black, nor did they do poorly on standardized tests. Gee, goo figure.
... more male chauvinist geeks.
what other kinds of geeks are there? What other kinds of males are there? hmmmm
...and it would be very wrong to just write off the lives of those who are already in prison.
Granted, I support the get-the-ganstas-off-the-streets movement, because that's giving kids a chance to actually make something of their lives. I will avidly oppose a prison-education system until their is a method for a free education (at least to an associates level) for citizens.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
So, inside every street gang member is a little hacker just waiting to break out ? Does that mean inside every hacker is a little gang banger waiting to get out ?
Does it also mean that lawyers will be able to plead in mitigation, "Your Honour, my client isn't a bad boy he just fell in with a bad crowd of Linux users". Or maybe "It wasn't intentional, Your Honour, my client had been using Windows 98 all day and obviously he was in a non-cognitive state". Beats "roid rage", MSG overdoses, and pmt which have all been used as defences in the U.S.
So, now we decide to be real picky about who gets to do the white ccollar crime?
In other words, the economically disadvantaged should be denied a higher education
(Emphasis mine) "Economically disadvantaged"? What the fuck is that?! When you mean to say "the poor", just frickin' say "the poor".
I agree with your argument, that everyone deserves to receive a free education and would carry that onwards to tuition-free colleges and universities, but I do believe that your phrasing reveals a very distinct problem associated with public educational systems as we know them. Would you not agree, upon giving it a little reflection?
If a tree falls on an anonymous coward yelling 'first post' in the forest, does anybody hear?
It's hard enough for someone with NO criminal background to get a job. I wonder how the hiring manager will take the fact that the person was a gang member in the past. The decision to that person ahead of someone with no criminal past, given similar qualifications, would that be prejudice either way?
Basically, I just see that not everyone gets caught. People get caught in areas of high police activity and profiling - that's the way it is. I am at Homeboyz. In fact, right now. I went through the program and am not a criminal. I work with (and went throught the program with) people who have gotten caught and people who have not, but decided to get out first. The people who have been caught are all different races and backgrounds, and not all gangsters! They are all very intelligent, and many have had to spend time in prison "thinking" about their mistake and now want to make it better.
That's supposed to be the point of our prisons, isn't it? Why let them out if we aren't going to treat them as people on an equal playing field. Why let them out if we think they will do the crimes again?
Most of the people at Homeboyz are also ready for relocation. They are ready to take work that a "more educated", "prouder" person might not take.
Um. Good. Give people skills that'll help 'em land a decent job. But the Web Development market is already oversupplied. Try something like nursing or home health care, or even airport security, where they might actually find work!
Actually, television is becoming common in prisons all over the world as a tool to control inmate behavior.
Perhaps one useful approach would be to use closed circuit television to control what the prisoners see. Educational, religious, or therapeutic programs might provide them with more understanding of the world than the deceptive images and stories that they see on commercial television.
A prison should never ban commercial television. Rather, it should set up a contrast between the amoral, consumer oriented ethos and a fundamentally moral one. Some prisoners would get it and some wouldn't. However, simply showing commercial television might calm their behavior while in prison but it is possible it would do nothing to discourage criminal behavior when they are out of prison.
This view of prison life says:
The most senseless use of time in prison has to be constant television watching. There are adult men in prison who watch cartoons and soap operas for hours each day. They know all the soaps' characters, plots, and can figure all the possible scenarios of upcoming episodes. They live through the tube. They call television the "Boob Tube" because it will make you dumb if you aren't already. Its shameless, naked images will poison your mind and spirit. Its fantasy will rob you of all original creative thinking abilities. Constant television watching develops the dangerous habit of always wanting to be entertained, which causes laziness.
One can see that television watching as a solution may be as bad as the disease.
So, now we want criminals to work with old people and work at airports. Right - most people who have responded today don't think gang members or ex-cons should have any rights at all to touch computers, let alone baggage.
Homeboyz is constantly changing with the times - always expanding on the training to keep the skills up to date. Yes, there are lots of web developers, but many of them know only the basics or have no actual experience. At homeboyz, you get to see the big picture and gain an actual understanding of a business, not just the web business.
Also, the point of Homeboyz is to instill confidence, hope, and self-respect to ANYONE who comes here. It is about the fact that I was taught (back in junior high) that I wans't good at logic or technology - then it turns out that I am! I understand logic and have a great attention to detail. Good for me. I have learned a lot about myself that will help me to finish college (discipline, goal-setting), it will help me in my dealings with others, it will help me the next time I come up against something that I think I can't do or am not interested in. That's what this is about.
When we make it just about jobs/careers, we lose track of the point of living.
In Germany, prisoners are given the option to work. If they work, part of the money are only given to them when they leave prison.
I proficient in HTML, Photoshop, JavaScript, Cascading Stylesheets, DHTML, PHP, and MySQL/Database (we hand-code only, so we actually have to know what we are doing - and why).
I have managed a project from the requirements and definition phase, to deployment. That means that I did everything and experienced all phases of a project - it used a mailing list administrator (php) and Homeboyz' Content Management System on a few pages.
I have followed and understood the Rational Unified Process (RUP) methodology, and made use of the Universal Modeling Language (UML) to develop detailed use-cases and design prototypes for an HBI product (curriculum design assistant for Milwaukee public schools).
At Homeboyz, we are getting the full scope of web development, not just the basics. I have more hands-on experience and understanding of what goes on behind the scenes than many, many web developer.
Just yesterday I was talking to a guy who had done one of these "cookie cutter" training programs that teach you how to do web design. OK, he knows what looks good - but, um, getting it into a suitable format for the web is an awful job. Think of awful 1x1 transparent gifs, missing ALT tags, and huge tables for layout. Yuk!
I spent a long time yesterday schooling him on web design - and I haven't even done a course in it! He's got the piece of paper and the job, but the one with the skills is a bum on the street.
Flooding the market with Yet Another web designer (or developer from the sounds) is a bad, bad idea. Given the current state and the way demand for web work is going down the toilet, to flood the market with a huge supply is the worst thing you could do.
Wouldn't they be more suitable doing something like building houses, landscaping, communications infrastructure - those industries have a more solid market and seem to be the way to go. (Apart from the "building" idea.)
But yes, if you teach 'em PHP then that's a good start. Nothing quite like Javascript form validation (hi MSN!)
Homeboyz is not just about a career. It teaches self-respect and communication. We talk to each other and learn more about people. We learn how to get along with people that we may not even accept (for many different reasons) in the "real" world. We learn how to get along with bosses who might be pricks sometimes.
We learn how to take responsibility for ourselves - you don't call or show, you are out. You are held responsible for your actions here. People are learning much more than web development.
All the guys i know who have become sherrifs/cops were the worst power-hungry group of assholes I have ever met. They were trouble-makers (who didn't get caught) and they got off on the power over others. It's funny that you talk about things this way, as if many cops aren't rapists, child-molesters, etc! Remind me again what the domestic violence rate is amongst cop families....
You are a pathetic excuses for a comedian. I am glad you have so much respect for women, and for your own cum that you would waste it on a woman who is probably not even in her child-bearing years...have you no respect for the human race?
What kind of web developers are we talking about?
Are we talking about those who are able to create a simple home site with tables and frames (hopefully) or are we talking about hi-end web programmers who are able to create and maintain database driven web applications/sites? I am sorry, but if you want to become a good web developer, you have to get more education that a couple of years in a gang and 3 months of HTML. I am almost finished with my degree in CS and I have been developing database driven web applications for more than 3 years now, still I am very far from a 'guru'...
honey, milwaukee news ignores half the shit that happens here! we talk about the packers every fucking day, not because there is nothing else to do, but because most people don't want to hear about it! They are trying to attract more people to the city - my tax dollars have gone to all kinds of new shit here - so why would they want to mention all the violence that goes on here? Trust me, they don't, and it is ignorant of you to not realize that.
Does treating them like subhuman scum do us any good in the long run? No.
I never suggested treating them like subhuman scum. I only suggest that they should not be given for free what anyone else has to pay for. Except basic needs (food and water, and occasionally medicine). They don't need a high-tech college education. They need a basic secondary (i.e. high school) education. That's all law-abiding citizens get for free, and that's all criminals should get for free. There are plenty of jobs for which that is sufficient. Let them deliver pizzas, wait tables, mop floors, and pump gas. We don't need to turn them into webmasters.
So, because you had it hard - everyone should? homeboyz is not just people who have been in trouble, it is people who are headed that way, it is people who need it. my grandparents hiked to school uphill both ways and wrote with coal on the back of a shovel...why don't we just complain about all the rich people who have it so easy - whose parents made their wealth off of the backs of others. Cry me a river, but I commend you for your work ethic.
Also, have you ever BEEN TO THE SCHOOLS IN MILWAUKEE? Some of the IT teachers for MPS schools have actually come here to recieve some training because they need to "update their skills". They finally figured out that children may need to learn something not from 1982.
Also, you could have lived somewhere less expensive than LA. Couldn't you, if it was SOOOOO rough?
It's horrible, a waste of money only matched by the incredible amounts of money we waste on the military.
I used to think that, but right now, at this time, I'm glad we have every bit of military capability that we have. But that's a discussion for another day...
...You could argue that they implicitly chose it for themselves when they committed the crime
Bingo.
But when you consider that most of them are there for nonviolent crimes...
Not relevant.
at some point we should consider why the law is criminalizing so many people
The law isn't criminalizing people. It's criminalizing undesirable behavior. And there is plenty of undesirable behavior that is non-violent. Selling drugs, theft, fraud, etc. All non-violent, but also not victimless either.
but when you look at the larger picture we are all responsible
I don't see how. Yes it is our society and we made it. But we made it give free primary and secondary education to everyone, and we made it provide welfare to those who need it. There is no excuse for criminal behavior, and especially no excuse for violent criminal behavior.
In other words, the economically disadvantaged should be denied a higher education.
I never said that. I said that if you're going to start giving out free college educations, give it to the non-criminal economically disadvantaged people first, and to the criminals second. You want to raise everybody's taxes, including your own, enough to pay for universal college education? I'm willing to entertain the suggestion, even if I have to pay more taxes for it. But I would insist that the poor-but-honest people benefit first, the poor-and-criminal second, and the wealthy-and-criminal dead last.
Remember, the point is not just to become a GURU. This isn't just about jobs. Maybe you should read some of the other postings to get the point?
I have experience working as a software developer for a storage company(C, C++). The applications I've been doing interface with the SCSI device driver on Unixware, Linux and Solaris to communicate/activate vendor unique features on our company's RAID devices. I also have programming experiences with IPC, TCP/IP, multiple processes,
IPC, SMTP and unix system files. (The books by Richard Stevens is a great help!) I can troubleshoot systems and network related problems, I'm familiar with systems administration and network security. I have played around with
lots of stuff on unix. And for the things I don't have experience on, I know where to look for the
answers.
so far, I can't get a job here in the United States because I don't have work papers. Those guys take their citizenship for granted and ohh... it so unfair.
Here's a couple links:
Paper:
http://papers.nber.org/papers/w6592
Article about paper:
http://www.cooter-ulen.com/crime.htm#Economics of a Street Gang
Maybe they're making slightly above minimum wage (like $6 something here), but they're not making the serious money most people think. Whatever, no one will ever read this anyway.
Anything you can do, I can do meta.
You refuse to pay boy, Im gonna come out dar and bust your ass boy!
Whats dat? Yew not scared of me? I'll get some of my consultants and I'll teach you to be scared.
Nom.
Secondly, it is people like you with the opinions like you have that have put my people into the situation that we are in right now.
I was with you right up until that statement. I have known people who grow up in the same circumstances (same household even) that go in very different directions, some to prison, others to work, entreprenuers, etc. Your own choices are far more important than what other people think or do to put you down.
--
As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.
When someone tells me exactly what it is that *I* did that is wrong, then I'll accept some of the blame for myself. We already know what the criminal did wrong. If you're going to blame society, you're going to have to justify that somehow. I don't simply accept it as axiomatic that whenever a criminal commits a crime, anyone else ought to take any blame.
Why would Porno Stars want to quit screwing just to get screwed on salary while producing web pages? This doesnt make any sense, if your getting paid to have kinky sex, do they really dream about tooling around in DreamWeaver? Arnt they living their dream? They get paid to take drugs, hang out and bang hot chicks? In what world is web development a step up from that life ??
When any one person does a crime, then sure, blame it on the person. But the US has the largest per-capita prison population in the world, and that's not because the luck of the die has led to a bunch of bad people to coincidentally be born here. It's because something is wrong with this country. The people of the US -- presumably you are also one of them -- have to take responsibility for that.
I pray to god that they aren't forcing these people to use FrontPage to 'develop' webpages. As an Internet Tech, it's depressing and enraging enough to talk with non-criminals that try to 'develop' webpages without getting down to the nitty-gritty HTML.
FrontPage development should be a crime in and of itself. Hooray for PHP and MySQL. And don't get me started on IIS.
Thank you for reading One Man's Opinion. No participation necessary. Offer void where deemed by law or PATRIOT Act.
I repeat: Are you out of your mind!?
Aren't human beings lovely?
All those damn stupid ass Mexican gangbangers can only reproduce like cockroaches, commit crime, act rude, and collect welfare. You telling us that those low lifes can even sit at a computer and READ? Yeah right go rob a liquor store dude.
he could realy use one of those for himself!
http://www.a1-homepage-service.de
and you feed him for a day
Teach a man to fish, and you teach him to sit around in a boat drinking beer,
I work for a homeless shelter in Iowa called John Lewis that runs one of these programs. In the basement of one building we have a computer lab that we use to teach free classes to the people in our other aid/transitional living/rehabilitation programs. We teach courses in everything from Intro to Computers to one for CompTIA A+ certifications.
As an instructor there, I've seen marked improvements in the course of peoples' lives. The students there go from being afraid of computer mice to having jobs in web development and computer repair.
As far as The Economist's question about qualifications...I was taken on in May last year when I had just turned 13, though I did have to suffer through a year without pay (apparently it isn't legal to put someone under 14 on payroll). They tell me, though, that this is in extraordinary case and has to do with the courses I've taken nights and weekends from area colleges. Basically, the qualifications are math through Calculus, four years+ of foreign language (yes, people *do* show up not knowing English). It wouldn't hurt to have any certifications you plan to be teaching - I have A+ and CCNA. I also had to submit samples when they set me up teaching web design. Does this help, Economist?
Actually, a lot of school districts allow alternatives to the traditional high school education, which includes both vocational training (cooking, machinery skills, even some computer classes) and post-secondary option. So if as a high school student, I can receive a college education (FOR FREE), it seems reasonable to allow that same education within prison.
I think it would be fair, however, to have some sort of work system where they have to spend so many hours doing these specific jobs (I know they already have jobs, but maybe this would mean a few extra hours a week at a different job) in order to qualify for the *better* classes. That way, besides the time spent in classes, they have to invest something (extra TIME) to be able to take them, and I would think that would help to create a sense of personal investment and pride, knowing that they worked hard to get that education.
> I'm so sorry for calling them criminals.
No matter what you may think they did or didn't do, or what they actually did or didn't do, they were recruited from the street, not the jail. Based on the time-honored idea of innocent until proven guilty you are incorrect to call them criminals. More to the point, there are testimonials elsewhere in the comments to this story from people who went through this program, and several of them stated that they were not members of any gang at the time they were recruited. Again, whether you believe them or not is immaterial. Since there's no criminal record, I presume them innocent, and you need to as well. You cannot paint them as criminals because you feel it's likely that they are. That's prejudicial, and wrong.
Virg
You cannot rewire this type by teaching them to "be on time" and "call in sick". I doubt you can rewire them with any form of behavior modification. The trick is to identify the true incurables and keep them locked up with food, warm beds and working TVs till they die. I suppose we could start with simple profiling - "white, young, male, sex-offender" == "sexual predator" == "keep 'em till there aren't any 6 yr olds for them to predate".
Heal yourself first. It is foolish to insult people you don't know.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Anyone who is not intelligent, is not going to be able to finishe the program. It is about people who are willing and ready to change and make something of themselves. That's it.
$17/hr *IS** $35,000/year. Of course there's no air conditioning on construction sites....
-sid
(*some* similarities)
I ran a bicycle design program in brooklyn for a couple years, working with kids who didn't have a lot going on. they weren't drug addicts, and I'm not religious, but I bet a lot of the challenges were the same. I put a page up about it at http://www.geocities.com/meighreaux - some of the experiences related there might be of use to anyone considering starting a program like the one the Economist describes.
Leave it to a goddamn liberal to start whining and reciting chapter and verse from The Total Idiot's Guide to Waging Class Warfare at the mere *mention* of the idea that, perish the thought, a person who commits a crime in this country should actually be PUNISHED for it.
These people are not criminals because they are "economically disadvantaged". They are criminals because they chose to break the law. Their "social class" did not force them to pull the proverbial trigger on the proverbial gun. That was something that they chose to do on their own, and, as much as it pains your oh-so-PC little heart, they should PAY THE CONSEQUENCES. Period.
Guess what else? These people ARE given a chance at an education. Every child in this country has an opportunity to go to school and make something of themselves. If they apply themselves and work hard, they WILL get a chance to continue on with a college education, no matter how "economically disadvantaged" they are. That's what academic scholarships are for. It's not my or anyone else's fault if they choose to squander that opportunity in favor of a life of thuggery. It is their fault, and it is their parents' fault for not doing their job of raising their children properly.
Hopefully, those that do make the best of their opportunities won't go to the same place that taught you to regurgitate this ridiculous leftist bullshit.
In Soviet Russia, Chuck Norris will still kick your ass.
Finally, this program is about more than just turning black and hispanic bangers into programmers, but rather the developement of bright young minds who have been oppressed for so long by stupid restrictions...
What stupid restrictions? Please cite just one regulation that specifically prohibits someone from taking advantage of an opportunity because he or she is Black or Hispanic. Just one.
I most certainly would not favor any such "restrictions", but frankly, as a white person, I am sick and fucking tired of being blamed for every failure of every non-white person in this country. No one is being institutionally denied anything because of their race, so quit trying to push your individual shortcomings off on "the man". That's such a cop-out.
And no, I don't harbor any negative feelings toward anyone who might benefit from this program. I'd be thrilled if some gang-bangers got an opportunity like this and were able to make something out of themselves. But, I don't want to fucking hear how it's "white, rich, corporate America's fault" when one of these kids doesn't succeed, and there will be at least one who doesn't, by law of averages alone. Sorry, but you had your chance. You should have made the most of it.
Forgive me for being cynical, but I fully expect to be called all manner of "racist Nazi hatemonger" epithets for not toeing the politically correct line...
In Soviet Russia, Chuck Norris will still kick your ass.