From personal experience (OK, back with RH4.1), Macmillan's support consisted of a pretty much clueless Macmillan guy relaying my questions to someone at Red Hat and then relaying the answers back to me. So for a savings of maybe $10 or $20 it took me three days instead of one or two to get a question answered.
And I wound up having to figure out on my own that the reason the installation kept failing was because the CD-ROM (which I came to suspect CompUSA had taken in as a return and put into a box that it re-shrinkwrapped) had schmutz on it.
Perhaps Linux-related vendors could contribute documentation resources -- writing, editing, organizing -- the way some have pitch in programming talent to open source. Vendor-neutrality could be maintained the same as it has for Apache (being helped by IBM), KDE (Corel) and the Linux kernel itself (the ever-mysterious Transmeta), to name a few.
I disagree with the assertion that programmers make good writers
I didn't read Roblimo's comment that way. He wrote: "the way writers and coders work is quite similar, especially the fact that people who are good (or want to get good) at either task often become so obsessed with their work that they give up almost everything else in their lives."
I agree that a lot of the HOWTOs, man pages etc out there now are pretty close to incomprehensible to non-programmers like me. But I think it's true that programmers and writers have similar work ethics. (I've done writing/editing for quite a few years myself.)
I also agree that it's unlikely the end result of this product will be a "cheap" book. Presumably the full contents will also be posted for free on the Web (would be interesting if IDG sells banner ads to those pages, though) but as I said in another comment, don't we already have the LDP?
My first question is, why not simply channel all that effort into the LDP?
In the linuxworld openbook newsgroup the answer is answered thusly:
In some ways, you are right, this is YALDE (Yet Another Linux Documentation Effort). But there are important differnces between this book and the LDP. A few of them are:
1. Focus. This will be a book, not an encylopedia of everything Linux.
2. Product. This will be a professionally crafted, edited, bound, and published work which will extend the information to virtually every corner of the globe by virtue of IDG's worldwide presence and translation partners.
3. The information in this book will be a natural for the LDP to include in their project rather than the other way around. We should have 'fresher' data.
I hope this answers at least some of your concerns.
See ya, Joe Barr
I'm concerned there may be a lot of duplicated effort here. And from some of the other discussion in that newsgroup I think the issue of focus will be a tough one to resolve. I have a hard time picturing one book that will be "essential" both to Linux newbies and experienced sysadmins.
& I'm all for telecommuting but how many investment funds use a residential address (177 East 79th St. NY NY is an apartment building) for snail mail? Not even a P.O. box.
There are some legitimate gripes over E*Trade's handling of this thing, especially the reconfirmation snafu, and it would be good if E*Trade would (in the spirit of open source) give a full accounting of what happened.
But I LOL when I read people (including some not in the affinity group) bitching here about putting in for tens of thousands of dollars worth of RHAT and not getting any. I would have thought people smart enough to be coders and consumers in the open source community would have at least some clue about the laws of supply and demand. It's simple frickin' math.
Let me use an extreme example, but one drawn from reality. Suppose every affinity-group member sent in $90,000 and ordered 6,400 shares at $14. Red Hat set aside 800,000 shares for "friends and family," and even though that includes company directors, officers and employees -- a point often forgotten in the outcry -- I'll still assume 800,000 shares for "the community." So 800,000 / 6,400 = 125. If more than 125 coders got The Letter, there wouldn't be enough shares to give every one of them all of what they wanted. I haven't seen a reliable figure for how many got The Letter but it sure seems more than 125 have posted here.
Probably few E*Traders put in for that much, but clearly the demand exceeded supply (again, it would be useful if E*Trade would disclose how many got The Letter, the total number of affinity-group shares requested and allocated to Letter-bearers, and a similar accounting for those of us who did not get The Letter). When that happens, if you get anything at all at the offering price, you're lucky. If you get shut out strictly because of supply and demand, that's the breaks. Get over it.
I also laugh when I see someone complain that they put just enough money into their shiny new E*Trade accounts to cover 100 shares at $12 each, the top of the original price range (and I'm not talking here about anyone who really couldn't afford more than $1,200). These folks obviously have not even the faintest idea how IPO pricing works, and I highly doubt they'd have read in the S-1/A and E*Trade's disclaimers that IPOs are highly speculative -- i.e. that you can LOSE a lot of money playing them. Obviously many of us felt RHAT would do well, that open source can work in the real world, but there were no guarantees.
I suspect the discussion here would have been a whole lot different if RHAT had tanked coming out of the gate or shortly thereafter (as so many other IPOs did in the preceding couple weeks). Of course that would have happened only if there was insufficient demand for the stock. Then everyone who bought their (formerly) $90,000 worth would be crying that E*Trade and the SEC made it too easy for them to take a bath.
I didn't get any shares (I didn't get the letter) and yes, it sucks that I wasted some time trying, but I generally don't blame E*Trade and especially not RH.
No, I don't understand why E*Trade made me refile my conditional offer when my initial offer was at a limit > $14, and I'd probably be pissed if instead of frequently reloading the IPO Center page this morning I had relied only on an alert that didn't show up in my account until after the window closed (it was open ~ 24 minutes).
But let's remember the laws of supply and demand. Obviously there was very high demand for this stock (holding at 47 as I write). If you're a regular shlump going through a place like E*Trade (i.e. not a high roller), the only time you're likely to get IPO shares is if it's not a very desirable stock.
I have to disagree with blaming RHAT for repricing. As an about-to-be-public company they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders (hopefully about to include me) to maximize their value, including raising as much as they think the market will bear in the IPO.
hmm, good thing I kept reloading the IPO Center page and didn't rely on my "Alert inbox" for notification of need to refile conditional offer... the timeout on the alert:
August 11, 1999 10:48:01 AM ET
[snip]
E*TRADE is now, for a limited time, accepting new Conditional Offers for Red Hat IPO shares at the E*TRADE IPO Center.
Yeah, limited time, like TOO LATE.
Why do I suspect a LOT of people are gonna be REALLY pissed?
the alert I received in my E*T account is worded a little differently from what they posted on the IPO Center page -- "re-confirm interest" rather than submit new Conditional Offer.
Subject: Red Hat IPO Update
Please note, should the Red Hat IPO price above or below the original filing range of $10-12/share, customers will be required to re-confirm interest in the offering at the offering price. If this happens E*TRADE will send you instructions on how to re-confirm interest.
This offering has not yet been priced or declared effective. E*TRADE will update the IPO Bulletin and send an account alert with instructions in the event that this happens.
Not sure why I should have to re-confirm if I placed a limit order higher than the offering price. OTOH, if it prices at $0.25 higher than my stated limit I'd like the opportunity to still get in.
Wednesday will have to be an international holiday for all us wannabe capitalist pigdogs to be able to deal with this.
8/10/99 Please note, should the Red Hat IPO price above or below the original filing range of $10-12/share, E*TRADE customers will be required to submit a NEW Conditional Offer for shares. This offering has not yet been priced or declared effective. In the event that this happens, E*TRADE will update the IPO Bulletin and send an account alert to Customers who previously placed conditional Offers in this IPO.
E*Trade's account/trading services were down for a while today. If RHAT prices outside the range, expect utter chaos. Oy.
And no, the announcement doesn't distinguish between friends/family and others.
Sorry, I didn't ask specifically about the designated shares, as I didn't get The Letter.
I'd hope there's a separate allocation procedure for "friends/family" -- that none of the designated shares go to other E*Trade customers unless "friends/family" don't collectively put in for at least 800,000. (I say that even though it decreases my own chances of getting in.)
Note, however, that "friends/family" also includes Red Hat people, who presumably wouldn't have to go through E*Trade to get in. Unclear how many designated shares actually will go through E*Trade. From the SEC filing:
At the request of Red Hat, the underwriters have reserved up to 800,000 shares of common stock for sale at the initial public offering price through a directed share program, to directors, officers and employees of Red Hat and to open source software developers and other persons that Red Hat believes have contributed to the success of the open source software community and the growth of Red Hat.
Philosophical arguments aside, it seems pretty unlikely that any of us mere mortals (i.e. E*Traders) will be going into early retirement off the RHAT IPO tomorrow, even if the stock comes out like gangbusters.
A broker at E*Trade just explained the allocation procedure to me:
First, assuming you made it past the qualification questionnaire and put in a conditional offer, E*Trade reviews you for eligibility, namely that you have enough money in your account to cover however many shares you say you want.
Then E*Trade allocates 100 shares to everyone who's eligible -- if E*Trade has enough to go around. If not, the allocation is done randomly, i.e. lottery.
If there happen to be shares left over after the first round of allocations, the process is repeated until the shares are gone. But this broker says "it's very rare" that there are enough shares to give even 100 to everyone who wants some.
IOW, no matter how many shares you put in for, if you get 100 shares you'd be lucky.
I'd note that this comports with E*Trade's stated philosophy of getting IPO shares into the hands of as many desiring E*Trade customers as possible over time. It also comports with E*Trade's need to make as many $19.95 commissions as possible in any deal.
Slashdot Mirror
And I wound up having to figure out on my own that the reason the installation kept failing was because the CD-ROM (which I came to suspect CompUSA had taken in as a return and put into a box that it re-shrinkwrapped) had schmutz on it.
I used to be a 95 lb. weakling.
Perhaps Linux-related vendors could contribute documentation resources -- writing, editing, organizing -- the way some have pitch in programming talent to open source. Vendor-neutrality could be maintained the same as it has for Apache (being helped by IBM), KDE (Corel) and the Linux kernel itself (the ever-mysterious Transmeta), to name a few.
I didn't read Roblimo's comment that way. He wrote: "the way writers and coders work is quite similar, especially the fact that people who are good (or want to get good) at either task often become so obsessed with their work that they give up almost everything else in their lives."
I agree that a lot of the HOWTOs, man pages etc out there now are pretty close to incomprehensible to non-programmers like me. But I think it's true that programmers and writers have similar work ethics. (I've done writing/editing for quite a few years myself.)
I also agree that it's unlikely the end result of this product will be a "cheap" book. Presumably the full contents will also be posted for free on the Web (would be interesting if IDG sells banner ads to those pages, though) but as I said in another comment, don't we already have the LDP?
In the linuxworld openbook newsgroup the answer is answered thusly:
In some ways, you are right, this is YALDE (Yet Another Linux Documentation Effort). But there are important differnces between this book and the LDP. A few of them are:
1. Focus. This will be a book, not an encylopedia of everything Linux.
2. Product. This will be a professionally crafted, edited, bound, and published work which will extend the information to virtually every corner of the globe by virtue of IDG's worldwide presence and translation partners.
3. The information in this book will be a natural for the LDP to include in their project rather than the other way around. We should have 'fresher' data.
I hope this answers at least some of your concerns.
See ya,
Joe Barr
I'm concerned there may be a lot of duplicated effort here. And from some of the other discussion in that newsgroup I think the issue of focus will be a tough one to resolve. I have a hard time picturing one book that will be "essential" both to Linux newbies and experienced sysadmins.
When exactly were you told you got 100 shares? Early in the afternoon of the IPO or sometime thereafter?
& I'm all for telecommuting but how many investment funds use a residential address (177 East 79th St. NY NY is an apartment building) for snail mail? Not even a P.O. box.
And would you send your hard-earned cash to someone using the address LinuxFund@aol.com?
I'd like to see some evidence that this isn't a scam.
But I LOL when I read people (including some not in the affinity group) bitching here about putting in for tens of thousands of dollars worth of RHAT and not getting any. I would have thought people smart enough to be coders and consumers in the open source community would have at least some clue about the laws of supply and demand. It's simple frickin' math.
Let me use an extreme example, but one drawn from reality. Suppose every affinity-group member sent in $90,000 and ordered 6,400 shares at $14. Red Hat set aside 800,000 shares for "friends and family," and even though that includes company directors, officers and employees -- a point often forgotten in the outcry -- I'll still assume 800,000 shares for "the community." So 800,000 / 6,400 = 125. If more than 125 coders got The Letter, there wouldn't be enough shares to give every one of them all of what they wanted. I haven't seen a reliable figure for how many got The Letter but it sure seems more than 125 have posted here.
Probably few E*Traders put in for that much, but clearly the demand exceeded supply (again, it would be useful if E*Trade would disclose how many got The Letter, the total number of affinity-group shares requested and allocated to Letter-bearers, and a similar accounting for those of us who did not get The Letter). When that happens, if you get anything at all at the offering price, you're lucky. If you get shut out strictly because of supply and demand, that's the breaks. Get over it.
I also laugh when I see someone complain that they put just enough money into their shiny new E*Trade accounts to cover 100 shares at $12 each, the top of the original price range (and I'm not talking here about anyone who really couldn't afford more than $1,200). These folks obviously have not even the faintest idea how IPO pricing works, and I highly doubt they'd have read in the S-1/A and E*Trade's disclaimers that IPOs are highly speculative -- i.e. that you can LOSE a lot of money playing them. Obviously many of us felt RHAT would do well, that open source can work in the real world, but there were no guarantees.
I suspect the discussion here would have been a whole lot different if RHAT had tanked coming out of the gate or shortly thereafter (as so many other IPOs did in the preceding couple weeks). Of course that would have happened only if there was insufficient demand for the stock. Then everyone who bought their (formerly) $90,000 worth would be crying that E*Trade and the SEC made it too easy for them to take a bath.
Nonsense. It's happened plenty of times just in the weeks since RH announced plans to go public.
Anyone who hasn't spent the few minutes it would take to know that really has no business getting into something as speculative as an IPO.
So it was the SEC that made E*Trade force people to reconfirm?
I guess complaining to the SEC won't do much good.
I didn't get any shares (I didn't get the letter) and yes, it sucks that I wasted some time trying, but I generally don't blame E*Trade and especially not RH.
No, I don't understand why E*Trade made me refile my conditional offer when my initial offer was at a limit > $14, and I'd probably be pissed if instead of frequently reloading the IPO Center page this morning I had relied only on an alert that didn't show up in my account until after the window closed (it was open ~ 24 minutes).
But let's remember the laws of supply and demand. Obviously there was very high demand for this stock (holding at 47 as I write). If you're a regular shlump going through a place like E*Trade (i.e. not a high roller), the only time you're likely to get IPO shares is if it's not a very desirable stock.
I have to disagree with blaming RHAT for repricing. As an about-to-be-public company they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders (hopefully about to include me) to maximize their value, including raising as much as they think the market will bear in the IPO.
CNBC just said RHAT is about to go out and is being bid up to $45. It's a "singular issue" not tied to fate of rest of market or other IPOs.
would be nice to hear from E*T whether i'm getting any.
August 11, 1999 10:48:01 AM ET
[snip]
E*TRADE is now, for a limited time, accepting new Conditional Offers for Red Hat IPO shares at the E*TRADE IPO Center.
Yeah, limited time, like TOO LATE.
Why do I suspect a LOT of people are gonna be REALLY pissed?
Oh yeah, it would be GREAT publicity for the open source community if someone cracked the E*Trade IPO pages. Dumbass.
8/11/99 E*TRADE is now accepting new Conditional Offers in the Red Hat IPO. This issue has been priced at $14 and has been declared effective. Go Now.
time to refile conditional offers
the /. people are probably hung over after spending last night supping at the trough with Linus et al.
plus it's 3 hrs earlier out there
Boddingtons!
Subject: Red Hat IPO Update
Please note, should the Red Hat IPO price above or below the original filing
range of $10-12/share, customers will be required to re-confirm interest in
the offering at the offering price. If this happens E*TRADE will send you
instructions on how to re-confirm interest.
This offering has not yet been priced or declared effective. E*TRADE will
update the IPO Bulletin and send an account alert with instructions in the
event that this happens.
Not sure why I should have to re-confirm if I placed a limit order higher than the offering price. OTOH, if it prices at $0.25 higher than my stated limit I'd like the opportunity to still get in.
Wednesday will have to be an international holiday for all us wannabe capitalist pigdogs to be able to deal with this.
IPO Bulletin
8/10/99 Please note, should the Red Hat IPO price above or below the original filing range of $10-12/share, E*TRADE customers will be required to submit a NEW Conditional Offer for shares. This offering has not yet been priced or declared effective. In the event that this happens, E*TRADE will update the IPO Bulletin and send an account alert to Customers who previously placed conditional Offers in this IPO.
E*Trade's account/trading services were down for a while today. If RHAT prices outside the range, expect utter chaos. Oy.
And no, the announcement doesn't distinguish between friends/family and others.
I'd hope there's a separate allocation procedure for "friends/family" -- that none of the designated shares go to other E*Trade customers unless "friends/family" don't collectively put in for at least 800,000. (I say that even though it decreases my own chances of getting in.)
Note, however, that "friends/family" also includes Red Hat people, who presumably wouldn't have to go through E*Trade to get in. Unclear how many designated shares actually will go through E*Trade. From the SEC filing:
At the request of Red Hat, the underwriters have reserved up to 800,000 shares of common stock for sale at the initial public offering price through a directed share program, to directors, officers and employees of Red Hat and to open source software developers and other persons that Red Hat believes have contributed to the success of the open source software community and the growth of Red Hat.
some details at http://cbs. marketwatch.com/news/current/ipo_rep.htx?source=ht x/http2_mw
Philosophical arguments aside, it seems pretty unlikely that any of us mere mortals (i.e. E*Traders) will be going into early retirement off the RHAT IPO tomorrow, even if the stock comes out like gangbusters.
A broker at E*Trade just explained the allocation procedure to me:
First, assuming you made it past the qualification questionnaire and put in a conditional offer, E*Trade reviews you for eligibility, namely that you have enough money in your account to cover however many shares you say you want.
Then E*Trade allocates 100 shares to everyone who's eligible -- if E*Trade has enough to go around. If not, the allocation is done randomly, i.e. lottery.
If there happen to be shares left over after the first round of allocations, the process is repeated until the shares are gone. But this broker says "it's very rare" that there are enough shares to give even 100 to everyone who wants some.
IOW, no matter how many shares you put in for, if you get 100 shares you'd be lucky.
I'd note that this comports with E*Trade's stated philosophy of getting IPO shares into the hands of as many desiring E*Trade customers as possible over time. It also comports with E*Trade's need to make as many $19.95 commissions as possible in any deal.
Bob Metcalfe, would you please stop posting as an AC?