Well, MySQL is MySQL, but I find its being used for many projects which I think is totally inappropriate. I mean anything above the most simple site which is done as a hobby, I think MySQL is not good enough... what happens when your RDBMS fall down go boom? I find Ramus's explination why he thinks Foreign Key's are "bad" just too funny for words (ok, not quite, but still quite funny).
I'd like to point out that I think MySQL has a niche, but I think people are using MySQL in many places outside of that niche, and that takes away energy from more worthy projects ie: PostgreSQL.
Yes, There are many sites I'd suggest MySQL over Oracle, but I wouldnt use MySQL for a site I was paid to do ever again.
of course its the wise thing to do - its also the expensive thing to do.... when cisco catalysts cost upwards of 2k... but then again, thats for a fully managed switch. you can get cheaper stuff which isnt managed. I heard dlink is really pushign their stuff lately. groovy.
heh, yes, I'm rabidly anti-mysql, and after studying the mysql docs for many years and seeing how the mysql guys do things, I've decided they are fucked in the head to put it mildly. They've decided that 20 years+ of RDBMS research is just plain wrong and decided that table-level locks is the way to go and that transactions are not a good way to do things. Not to mention that foreign keys are just a hassle...
I wouldnt mind so much except everyone's pushing MySQL as a oracle-replacement! I mean jeez, sure its fast... as long as you keep your concurrency low...
which brings me to the last point, slashdot is slow because they're using mysql, the table concurrency is killing them... they used to generate the static-comment page once a minute with a little daemon thingy because they couldnt get performance from multiple-readers and multiple-writers to the same table.
FUCK!
Its like the last 20 years of good research and hard work hasn't ever happened... the multiple-readers/writers with good performance problem has been licked so many times, that its just sad to see software which still cant get it right...;-(
Hmm; this is a minor, almost trivial, point... but I wonder if the FBI pays the standard co-lo fees, or if they just waved a magic wand and require the ISPs to provide free co-lo rackspace and bandwidth.
Oh yeah, this is great... I'd provide them with it no problem:
Me: Here you go, all secure on your very own 100 meg connection... Later: Them: Um, we can't see anyone else's traffic! Me: Of course not silly, you're on a switch, you can only see traffic actually destined for you.. it really makes things much faster, aren't you happy about it? Them: _muttering_ Um, yeah, great... sure... *fucker* (under their breath)
I guess smaller ISPs dont switch their traffic, but large ones use switches which segment traffic to only those lan segments which actually use it... at my place it would be difficult to place another machine on the same physical segment as my mail server, simply because that "physical segment" is just a straight wire from the switch to the server.. on the other side it goes from the switch to the router to the interweb. So not much room for sticking extra machines in there, you'd need to buy hubs to allow that.
Not true, when I run my iptraf on my cable modem i see tons of non-local traffic...
Ethernet "bridges" and "hubs" dont do what most people thing they do...
What you're talking about is where only lan segments get packets that are actually destined to them... thats called "LAN Switching" and a Catalyst 1924 will set you back almost 2k... hubs... even expensive hp procurve 10/100s dont do switching (they are like $800)... and do you think a cable modem which is basically so cheap its free will have switching in it?
of course not.... who cares about security anyways! HA!
Lately I found the x-files boring, i mean... they never discover the whole truth, they never really get anywhere in the "big" conspiracy.. its just... boring! I like the non-conspiracy episodes better personally...
Even though MySQL supports transactions I would still go with PostgreSQL for all database needs. Why?
* PostgreSQL transaction support probably is more stable * More importantly PostgreSQL supports features necessary for a complex RDBMS-backed application. IE: Foreign keys, subselects (nice! very nice, why do 2 queries when 1 will do?), stored procedures, triggers, etc.
If you have ever read the "why no foreign keys" on the MySQL website, it is funny as hell, I mean.. who the hell puts
"The speed impact is terrible for INSERT and UPDATE statements, and in this case almost all FOREIGN KEY checks are useless because you usually insert records in the right tables in the right order, anyway. "
What kind of lame statement is that? Its like "well, it takes too long to put on seatbelts and i have to bend my arm in a unconfortable way, but usually we dont have car accidents, so who cares?"
I find MySQL's approach to DB consistency totally and completely irresponsible... Its like not installing any safety features in a car because they slow it down, they're unconfortable and inconvient... but thats ok, because we usually dont have an accident anyways!
This is why I despise MySQL and monty, I think he is just a poor excuse for a RDBMS developer... The "nice thing about Foreign KEY is that odbc programs can draw relationship diagrams". Well if that is all they are good for, then I'd really question his sanity;-)
Anyways, I find Monty's "reasons not to use foreign keys" similar to what car makers probably said when the government started to make seatbelts manditory...
PS: I have never used the ability to copy 3 files to move a mysql table, have you?
We're using Colobrokers, they seem to be very good, and I've dealt with the head tech, and he's really good, he's done all sorts of things for other people and stuff.
They have it made, they're using Cisco GSR's, fully switched backbone (as it should be) with VLAN support (if you gots more than 1 cage) and they're using HSRP, so thats good as well.
Perhaps one day you'll realize that some people actually do what they love for a living. Forgive me for knowing what I am talking about and I suggest you follow a similar path for greater satisfaction in your life.
Please feel free to compare our products and services with any that you'll find anywhere else.
In an industry which is filled with uncertainty it is still relationships with people which drives business. People like myself offer advice and information to the best of our knowledge, freely and in the hope that it will benefit the electronic community.
-ryan I might add that the posting I wrote, the last sentence was last because it was an afterthought.
The problem with colocation is that everyone promises the world, but non deliver.
You want the following features:
* electronic security (good to find out who was in when) * multiple 100 meg pipes... * full BGP4 routing so all those pipes are used at all times, not just when one fails. * good connections... who are they peering with? * indivdual locked cages, video security is very good. * switched ethernet (ok, if you're talking 100 meg colos... but if you find you're on a hub, thats a major sign they are incomentent) * obscure locations - you don't want a sign saying "very expensive computers inside" * 24/7 on call support if necessary... what if you need to have that critical machine rebooted at night? sure it'll cost you, but it'll cost you more to have it down.
I work at a colo company, and our fast facility meets these requirements... Actually, I note that Vancouver is one of the best wired cities in North America, we got fat fat pipes to Seattle which is of course set up beyond belief..
I think the replication of coda would be good and cool. Think: all the webservers are coda servers in the 'www' cluster, another 'image' cluster for the web-image servers. Now, you have another box which is also part of the cluster, so you make mods to that "Extra" box and when you're done, you just get coda to sync the other servers by doing 'ls -lR' and presto changeo you've replicated your website changes without hacky scp scripts or anything else.
thats way old man. like a poster stated, run not walk to your nearest ftp and get a 7.0 RC. The latest versions have full create user, type support. Including grant permissions like oracle. none of this 'mysqladmin reload' stuff, which is pretty stupid on a production machine.
This entire story should never have been posted. I mean, why talk about something which has been in the literature for many years? The concept of writing a program and not letting it know if it will be run parallely or serialy is a old topic in computer science.
The problem is you don't have to be in computer science to program, which I personally see as a problem... Every course I take I look back a year or two and think "wow, man, i was dumb then". No doubt in 1-2 years I'll look at today and say the same thing. When I say "dumb" I mean "write things in silly, inefficient ways" and using brute force rather than elegant theory.
But... where in Canada? And could I get a job there with you?;-)
Actually I'm looking at the tail end of a BSC - CS in a few years or so, im thinking about masters since my BSC seems easy. But I'd like to stay in Vancouver after school... what does it look like? Right now im doing coop with a nice 60 minute bus commute... dont make enough to buy a car, so commute it is. Damn it sucks let me tell you. With a car I'd be here in like 20-30 minutes max.
Nevertheless, yeah, hes right, so many people take pay cuts to stay in Canada... its a great awsome lifestyle.
Matrox is already enlightened! You can download the specs for the G400 which hasn't even been released yet from their webpage after a free registration! Some guys have hacked a G200 3d driver (which runs quake2 at 8-10fps on the g200, and 20%-80% faster on the G400 aparently...) already (the guy was from VA and had a pre-released demo or something).
Matrox is already enlightened... no code, but the specs of programming a device driver is there. Not to mention that Xfree 3.3.4 which is being released soon will support the G400 and you can't even buy the G400 yet! Well, within a week you'll be able to, but the Matrox website says "preorder the G400..."
You are correct -- the brain *is* like a muscle, the more you use it, the stronger it is. Since to date people haven't had jobs where they spent great amounts of time thinking, people settled into a pattern and thus became inflexable.
I know for myself (does this apply to lots of others?) that learning is easy. I can pick up X as easily as anything. Learning new languages (computer and otherwise), new tasks, new ideas, etc, is very easy. New ways to think... but consider the old line "you can't teach an old dog new tricks". So does this mean as I get old my ability to learn becomes less and less?
Well, I believe the answer is... no. An article in the paper recently said that people who spend all their lives learning have more flexable brains as they get older. Thus the more you use it, the better shape it stays in! So for your parents who learned very little and did not learn, they are losing the ability to learn... remember, if you don't use it, you lose it!
Which is quite refreshing, because learning is fun, and its good... so forever shall I stay flexable... hopefully;-)
Iran and Iraq's *governments* had a war in the 80s. During which time, the US sold bombs and weaponds to Iraq which were used to murder the citizens of Iran. In the late 80, early 90s, Iraq fell out of favor for some reason or another, and now they are being bombed by the US (to fulful the US's need to maintain a war economy, but thats another posting...).
Short is this... the actions of a Country represent the actions of a government which do not necessarly represent the wishes and desires of the citizens, espeically in a country which does not have representitive government (although considering how indivdual lobbiests can cause laws which inconvience many others, how is that "represensitive"?)
So, why do I care? Well it just so happens that my girlfriend is from Iran. She calls herself "Persian" because that is what she is. She speaks persian, and soon so will I. Furthermore, during her 5th grade she didn't go to school because Tehran was being bombed by Iran using bombs designed and made by the United States, sold to Iraq, even though the United States knew full well that there were to be used on civilians. Innocent civilians.
Now, is my girlfriend a terrorist? I dare anyone to say so... I would be rather upset I think. Of course not. Are there terrorists from Iran? Yes. Are there terrorists from US? HELL yeah. What about that guy who was shooting abortion doctors? He's a terrorist. Does the US engage in international terrorism? It's hard to tell, because news is hardly objective... But the US's actions certainly seem terroristic at times.
Another thing, like the Beasty boys say, not everyone from Iran is a terrorist. Because of the Koran/Islam and because of other religions, some people feel they are religiously supported when they use violence to solve a problem. But its not a knock against those religions, because need we recall the crusades? The Spanish inquision? I don't need to continue I think.
Another thing, in that region, there is not very much space. Countries fight over the space available, the rights to extract minerals and oil, and religious issues. However, its not the *people* fighting. If you are a mother/wife, would you want your love to go off and fight an unnecessary war and die? I don't think so.
I wish the US would stop vilifying those countries... there are bad things about them, but don't over-villify things. Even the people in Iran don't like the governmental controlls, but hey, if you dissent, you are shot. So change is hard to institute.
And for all you americans reading this, I hope I can change your mind. I never thought much about Iran/Iraq and all of that stuff except as emotional-less thereotical political science issues, but it becomes so much more real when the one I love was the target of my neighbour's bombs. And when she suffers discrimination due to unfair negative portrayal of Persian/Iranians by the US to satisify some obscure lame political goal. These are *PEOPLE*... no different then you mom/wife/SO/etc. I encourage any of you working for defense contracters to review your position...
Slashdot Mirror
Well, MySQL is MySQL, but I find its being used for many projects which I think is totally inappropriate. I mean anything above the most simple site which is done as a hobby, I think MySQL is not good enough... what happens when your RDBMS fall down go boom? I find Ramus's explination why he thinks Foreign Key's are "bad" just too funny for words (ok, not quite, but still quite funny).
I'd like to point out that I think MySQL has a niche, but I think people are using MySQL in many places outside of that niche, and that takes away energy from more worthy projects ie: PostgreSQL.
Yes, There are many sites I'd suggest MySQL over Oracle, but I wouldnt use MySQL for a site I was paid to do ever again.
of course its the wise thing to do - its also the expensive thing to do.... when cisco catalysts cost upwards of 2k... but then again, thats for a fully managed switch. you can get cheaper stuff which isnt managed. I heard dlink is really pushign their stuff lately. groovy.
All I can say in response to that is a recent study found:
* 100% people who smoked - even for one day - have died or will die.
I'd say that's pretty damning if you ask me!
I must say I noticed the doubleclick ad on one section of the site... I found it interesting and I wondered if anyone else noticed...
Maybe andover.net's management is dictating slashdot should convert to doubleclick.net?
As for webbugs... interesting... hmm...
Yep, I agree, slashdot's public image and the reality of their day-to-day html practices dont quite jive. Whats up here?
Consider it a failure of MySQL ;-)
;-(
heh, yes, I'm rabidly anti-mysql, and after studying the mysql docs for many years and seeing how the mysql guys do things, I've decided they are fucked in the head to put it mildly. They've decided that 20 years+ of RDBMS research is just plain wrong and decided that table-level locks is the way to go and that transactions are not a good way to do things. Not to mention that foreign keys are just a hassle...
I wouldnt mind so much except everyone's pushing MySQL as a oracle-replacement! I mean jeez, sure its fast... as long as you keep your concurrency low...
which brings me to the last point, slashdot is slow because they're using mysql, the table concurrency is killing them... they used to generate the static-comment page once a minute with a little daemon thingy because they couldnt get performance from multiple-readers and multiple-writers to the same table.
FUCK!
Its like the last 20 years of good research and hard work hasn't ever happened... the multiple-readers/writers with good performance problem has been licked so many times, that its just sad to see software which still cant get it right...
ok.
bye for now.
Hmm; this is a minor, almost trivial, point... but I wonder if the FBI pays the standard co-lo fees, or if they just waved a magic wand and require the ISPs to provide free co-lo rackspace and bandwidth.
Oh yeah, this is great... I'd provide them with it no problem:
Me: Here you go, all secure on your very own 100 meg connection...
Later:
Them: Um, we can't see anyone else's traffic!
Me: Of course not silly, you're on a switch, you can only see traffic actually destined for you.. it really makes things much faster, aren't you happy about it?
Them: _muttering_ Um, yeah, great... sure... *fucker* (under their breath)
I guess smaller ISPs dont switch their traffic, but large ones use switches which segment traffic to only those lan segments which actually use it... at my place it would be difficult to place another machine on the same physical segment as my mail server, simply because that "physical segment" is just a straight wire from the switch to the server.. on the other side it goes from the switch to the router to the interweb. So not much room for sticking extra machines in there, you'd need to buy hubs to allow that.
Not true, when I run my iptraf on my cable modem i see tons of non-local traffic...
Ethernet "bridges" and "hubs" dont do what most people thing they do...
What you're talking about is where only lan segments get packets that are actually destined to them... thats called "LAN Switching" and a Catalyst 1924 will set you back almost 2k... hubs... even expensive hp procurve 10/100s dont do switching (they are like $800)... and do you think a cable modem which is basically so cheap its free will have switching in it?
of course not.... who cares about security anyways! HA!
Lately I found the x-files boring, i mean... they never discover the whole truth, they never really get anywhere in the "big" conspiracy.. its just... boring! I like the non-conspiracy episodes better personally...
although mulder is funny...
Even though MySQL supports transactions I would still go with PostgreSQL for all database needs. Why?
;-)
* PostgreSQL transaction support probably is more stable
* More importantly PostgreSQL supports features necessary for a complex RDBMS-backed application. IE: Foreign keys, subselects (nice! very nice, why do 2 queries when 1 will do?), stored procedures, triggers, etc.
If you have ever read the "why no foreign keys" on the MySQL website, it is funny as hell, I mean.. who the hell puts
"The speed impact is terrible for INSERT and UPDATE statements, and in this case almost all FOREIGN
KEY checks are useless because you usually insert records in the right tables in the right order, anyway. "
What kind of lame statement is that? Its like "well, it takes too long to put on seatbelts and i have to bend my arm in a unconfortable way, but usually we dont have car accidents, so who cares?"
I find MySQL's approach to DB consistency totally and completely irresponsible... Its like not installing any safety features in a car because they slow it down, they're unconfortable and inconvient... but thats ok, because we usually dont have an accident anyways!
This is why I despise MySQL and monty, I think he is just a poor excuse for a RDBMS developer... The "nice thing about Foreign KEY is that odbc programs can draw relationship diagrams". Well if that is all they are good for, then I'd really question his sanity
Anyways, I find Monty's "reasons not to use foreign keys" similar to what car makers probably said when the government started to make seatbelts manditory...
PS: I have never used the ability to copy 3 files to move a mysql table, have you?
We're using Colobrokers, they seem to be very good, and I've dealt with the head tech, and he's really good, he's done all sorts of things for other people and stuff.
They have it made, they're using Cisco GSR's, fully switched backbone (as it should be) with VLAN support (if you gots more than 1 cage) and they're using HSRP, so thats good as well.
www.colobrokers.com.
Perhaps one day you'll realize that some people actually do what they love for a living. Forgive me for knowing what I am talking about and I suggest you follow a similar path for greater satisfaction in your life.
Please feel free to compare our products and services with any that you'll find anywhere else.
In an industry which is filled with uncertainty it is still relationships with people which drives business. People like myself offer advice and information to the best of our knowledge, freely and in the hope that it will benefit the electronic community.
-ryan
I might add that the posting I wrote, the last sentence was last because it was an afterthought.
This wasnt going to be a advertisement, but check out this for more info including contact information.
The problem with colocation is that everyone promises the world, but non deliver.
You want the following features:
* electronic security (good to find out who was in when)
* multiple 100 meg pipes...
* full BGP4 routing so all those pipes are used at all times, not just when one fails.
* good connections... who are they peering with?
* indivdual locked cages, video security is very good.
* switched ethernet (ok, if you're talking 100 meg colos... but if you find you're on a hub, thats a major sign they are incomentent)
* obscure locations - you don't want a sign saying "very expensive computers inside"
* 24/7 on call support if necessary... what if you need to have that critical machine rebooted at night? sure it'll cost you, but it'll cost you more to have it down.
I work at a colo company, and our fast facility meets these requirements... Actually, I note that Vancouver is one of the best wired cities in North America, we got fat fat pipes to Seattle which is of course set up beyond belief..
Anyways...
CODA!!
I think the replication of coda would be good and cool. Think: all the webservers are coda servers in the 'www' cluster, another 'image' cluster for the web-image servers. Now, you have another box which is also part of the cluster, so you make mods to that "Extra" box and when you're done, you just get coda to sync the other servers by doing 'ls -lR' and presto changeo you've replicated your website changes without hacky scp scripts or anything else.
thats way old man. like a poster stated, run not walk to your nearest ftp and get a 7.0 RC. The latest versions have full create user, type support. Including grant permissions like oracle. none of this 'mysqladmin reload' stuff, which is pretty stupid on a production machine.
-ryan
What? You don't like random monologes that go from nowhere, lead to nowhere and have no valuable content in them whatsoever?
Comeone, he was making a joke, and I found it funny. I'd have written that if only I wasn't so damn lazy.
This entire story should never have been posted. I mean, why talk about something which has been in the literature for many years? The concept of writing a program and not letting it know if it will be run parallely or serialy is a old topic in computer science.
The problem is you don't have to be in computer science to program, which I personally see as a problem... Every course I take I look back a year or two and think "wow, man, i was dumb then". No doubt in 1-2 years I'll look at today and say the same thing. When I say "dumb" I mean "write things in silly, inefficient ways" and using brute force rather than elegant theory.
Sounds good,
;-)
But... where in Canada? And could I get a job there with you?
Actually I'm looking at the tail end of a BSC - CS in a few years or so, im thinking about masters since my BSC seems easy. But I'd like to stay in Vancouver after school... what does it look like? Right now im doing coop with a nice 60 minute bus commute... dont make enough to buy a car, so commute it is. Damn it sucks let me tell you. With a car I'd be here in like 20-30 minutes max.
Nevertheless, yeah, hes right, so many people take pay cuts to stay in Canada... its a great awsome lifestyle.
take it easy people.
Matrox is already enlightened! You can download the specs for the G400 which hasn't even been released yet from their webpage after a free registration! Some guys have hacked a G200 3d driver (which runs quake2 at 8-10fps on the g200, and 20%-80% faster on the G400 aparently...) already (the guy was from VA and had a pre-released demo or something).
Matrox is already enlightened... no code, but the specs of programming a device driver is there. Not to mention that Xfree 3.3.4 which is being released soon will support the G400 and you can't even buy the G400 yet! Well, within a week you'll be able to, but the Matrox website says "preorder the G400..."
-ryan
You are correct -- the brain *is* like a muscle, the more you use it, the stronger it is. Since to date people haven't had jobs where they spent great amounts of time thinking, people settled into a pattern and thus became inflexable.
;-)
I know for myself (does this apply to lots of others?) that learning is easy. I can pick up X as easily as anything. Learning new languages (computer and otherwise), new tasks, new ideas, etc, is very easy. New ways to think... but consider the old line "you can't teach an old dog new tricks". So does this mean as I get old my ability to learn becomes less and less?
Well, I believe the answer is... no. An article in the paper recently said that people who spend all their lives learning have more flexable brains as they get older. Thus the more you use it, the better shape it stays in! So for your parents who learned very little and did not learn, they are losing the ability to learn... remember, if you don't use it, you lose it!
Which is quite refreshing, because learning is fun, and its good... so forever shall I stay flexable... hopefully
I would like to point out a few things first...
Iran and Iraq's *governments* had a war in the 80s. During which time, the US sold bombs and weaponds to Iraq which were used to murder the citizens of Iran. In the late 80, early 90s, Iraq fell out of favor for some reason or another, and now they are being bombed by the US (to fulful the US's need to maintain a war economy, but thats another posting...).
Short is this... the actions of a Country represent the actions of a government which do not necessarly represent the wishes and desires of the citizens, espeically in a country which does not have representitive government (although considering how indivdual lobbiests can cause laws which inconvience many others, how is that "represensitive"?)
So, why do I care? Well it just so happens that my girlfriend is from Iran. She calls herself "Persian" because that is what she is. She speaks persian, and soon so will I. Furthermore, during her 5th grade she didn't go to school because Tehran was being bombed by Iran using bombs designed and made by the United States, sold to Iraq, even though the United States knew full well that there were to be used on civilians. Innocent civilians.
Now, is my girlfriend a terrorist? I dare anyone to say so... I would be rather upset I think. Of course not. Are there terrorists from Iran? Yes. Are there terrorists from US? HELL yeah. What about that guy who was shooting abortion doctors? He's a terrorist. Does the US engage in international terrorism? It's hard to tell, because news is hardly objective... But the US's actions certainly seem terroristic at times.
Another thing, like the Beasty boys say, not everyone from Iran is a terrorist. Because of the Koran/Islam and because of other religions, some people feel they are religiously supported when they use violence to solve a problem. But its not a knock against those religions, because need we recall the crusades? The Spanish inquision? I don't need to continue I think.
Another thing, in that region, there is not very much space. Countries fight over the space available, the rights to extract minerals and oil, and religious issues. However, its not the *people* fighting. If you are a mother/wife, would you want your love to go off and fight an unnecessary war and die? I don't think so.
I wish the US would stop vilifying those countries... there are bad things about them, but don't over-villify things. Even the people in Iran don't like the governmental controlls, but hey, if you dissent, you are shot. So change is hard to institute.
And for all you americans reading this, I hope I can change your mind. I never thought much about Iran/Iraq and all of that stuff except as emotional-less thereotical political science issues, but it becomes so much more real when the one I love was the target of my neighbour's bombs. And when she suffers discrimination due to unfair negative portrayal of Persian/Iranians by the US to satisify some obscure lame political goal. These are *PEOPLE*... no different then you mom/wife/SO/etc. I encourage any of you working for defense contracters to review your position...
(he who feels sadness for war)