Slashdot Mirror
Ask Slashdot: How Exportable is Linux?
Stano sent in
a really good question. He asks:
"The Austrian company I work for develops commercial
software and there exists a Linux port too. Now we have
an opportunity to get a customer in Iran. There exists an
American regulation (that Austria was forced to respect)
that only software with max. 10% of American code can be
exported to this country. Our software is OK in this
respect (we have an export permit) but how about a Linux
distribution? Is all FSF code "American",
regardles of who originally wrote it? How about the Linux
kernel? Who breaks the regulations if the customer himself
downloads some American/German/whatever distribution?"
So give them a distro that isn't based in the USA. Who cares what US laws are, when you aren't in the US.
This would make it immoral to export to the USA, I suppose then.
If you stay away from doing buisiness with Iraq, you're doing exactly what they want you to do, so if you're against those stupid laws, don't!
It may be difficult to identify 100% non-american code, but I guess it still can be found (maybe DaVinci, PDore, etc...). More systematic search in non american university/research centers may help (for instance, in France, INRIA software - if they can be redistributed).
Only problem is I don't speak Dutch.
;-)
Everyone I met in the Netherlands spoke English great. Besides, it's just like German and German is a lot like English so really how hard can it be to pick up?
My goodness. It took me a month in a foreign country to realize that all the ratting I used to spit out about how my own country was so unfree/bureaucratic/badly organized/uncivilized was mainly a result of comparing the ideal to the real.
;)]
[as a side-note: I moved from Germany to the US
There *is* a risk involved in open source software, that has not to my knowledge been discussed before: more sophisticated espionage or even weapon control systems for nations to which these were not previously available...
There's far worse things out there than MS, my fellow nerds...
Is there anything we could do to prevent such a use of free source code (apart from adding a paragraph bound to be ignored by the "evil guys" to the GPL?)
Doesn't this remind anyone of the BS policy the US has on encryption exportation which was recently ruled unconstitutional. I'm sure that this has to fall in similar ground legally. I'de tell the US to kiss my ass on this one if I were you guys.
But please, send us food and medicine! To not do so would be terroristic!
Wow, good reasoning.
But it's pretty stupid to be so ignorant of what Iraq does. Yea it's popular to bash the US, but helping Iraq blow stuff up isn't the brightest thing to do in any event.
Debian is available in full from servers in all manner of european countries. Download the cd images + burn onto CD, or just ftp install.
All the strong crypto stuff is available from non-us.debian.org, or one of its mirrors...
The US really is a bit crap when it comes
to crypto laws, but debian gets round it fairly handy..
there's mirrors in the UK, Ireland, Germany, scandinavia, croatia, and a host of others...
>What is, really, the difference between China and Cuba?
Well, as they say in the real-estate business:
"Location, location, location."
Since China (as far as I know) doesn't have subs with short range Nukes off the coast of the US, we aren't so concerned about a sneak attack from them. Cuba is a threat due to proximity. Besides, if we could bully China we would... But we can't, so we suck their dicks.
But, in general, I agree with your analysis.
Make your own distro. Take redhat. Add a couple of cd's with non-US software scotty, tkined, python, come to mind. I'm sure it'll be easy to add enough software to make sure that the 10% line is met. Or you could just write a perl program that writes a very very big C, or perl program, enough to fill a couple of CD's.
If that kind of argument holds, then pack the distribution with enough freeware made outside the US, until the american code constitutes only 10% of the total.
US government and military were doing business with the likes Iraq, Iran and Panama,
even though they new the leaders were "terrorists" and "drug dealers".
It's kind of funny how these guys are suddenly demonised whenever it suits the US's political ends, but before then, they are the "good guys".
-- AC
...countries that produce, have tested, and have used nuclear weapons, which are more dangerous, why trade with US, UK, France, China, Russia, India, Pakistan, Isreal...
"How do you know if a programme is American?" Well, for one thing, it spells "program" correctly. ;^) Sorry, Mr. Moderator, I just had to do it...
Why not add a few Gb of additional non-US software? If you add 10 times as much software as the total size of a Linux distrubution, you will be on the safe side. Or is too simple?
>If you stay away from doing buisiness with Iraq, you're doing exactly what
>they want you to do, so if you're against those stupid laws, don't!
This is utter fallacy. Loot at the crypto case (Bernstein vs. every gov't agency there is). That case ran on for *years*. And lawyers don't work for free. And YOU don't work when you're in court. Sorry, but I can't afford to starve my family and lose my house just to try and get 'stupid laws' repealed. Maybe you have no life and more money than Bill Gates. Great! Have fun in court. I have a life to live.
As Linus is still a Finnish citizen, I think you'd have a hard time 'proving' that Linux was American in the eyes of the law.
As for saying that a typical Linux distro is more than 10% American - bullshit. You don't know that anymore than anyone else. Given the vast number of GNU and Linux maintainers have non-Anglo Saxon names I'd suspect that the majority of code is non-American.
Or does that deflate your American-centric ego?
I thought it was America and Germany who designed and sold those weapons to Iraq and okay-ed their use against Iran.
The US government helps Isreal, the only country in the middle east with nuclear weapons and the will to use them.
While it is terrible to see things such as airplanes being shot down. You do need to look at the situations. Blowing up a 747 taxing down the runway in a peace time situation is a little different than shotting down a plane, that is coming toward a battlegroup (ie aircraft carrier) when in a conflict with a government that has supported terrorist activities.
The ship also warned the plane several times that it was being targeted and was told to deviate its course.
This does not make it right of course. But I think any plane approaching one of our aircraft carriers during a conflict will most likely be shot down. You can use a passenger jet to drop a torpedo or as a bomb just as a military plane.
Does the recent court case in the US mean that even if there is doubt about the code, it'd be legal to grab the *source* from a US site and recompile it outside US?
why would FreeBSD be any different?
Let's face it, the USA isn't bad. If you don't like it, you are FREE to leave!
That's the beauty of it.
For all it's government meddling and oppression, the USA is better than a lot of other places I've been...
I can't believe this. Every article that tells him how to get around it, or just ignore it a scored high, while those who suggest that dealing with a nation the murders it's own people, horribly mistreats women, is rated low.
Is this what slashdot has become?
This makes me sick. The Iranian govt. is EVIL. If you don't understand this than you've been under a rock for 25 years. Just talk to anyone who fled and you'll know why the implicit strengthening of the regime there is unthinkable.
Linux is as American as Al Gore. After all, I'm sure Al was responsible for at least 8 or 9 percent alone!
Try Aouro.
or Merrell.
or Vasque.
Or any number of brands you haven't heard before.
Or go to your local cobbler (they're actually still out there -- if you're in Austin, there's a great one in San Marcos).
Nikes are damn cheap shoes. They fall apart within a month, but unfortunately take the next 2 years to completely explode, thus informing you of their utter failure.
Don't be afraid of higher prices. After 3 years of wonderful operation, you can get the shoes resoled, and have another 3 years of service. You can't do that with sweat-shop Nikes.
I myself am wearing a fine pair of boots that don't give me back problems, are holding up amazingly well, are serviceable, and I take comfort in knowing that the people who made my shoes are able to feed their kids.
That's a good shoe.
Regarding the leadership in Serbia, I would not think twice before nuking them 'til glow and shooting them in the dark.
actually, I would like it if it were a government contract -- just depends on what part of the government.
The Iranian government is currently divided between moderates (like the premier & his supporters), and the hyper-conservative religious power base. Scaled in comparison to the religious groups, the moderates are the most whacked-out liberals you've ever seen, but they've got to pussy-foot around the priests who still hold the majority of the power on paper, and perhaps a majority in reality (they don't move as fast, though). For instance, they had a showdown over a liberal mayor being elected in Tehran -- the priests went after his head, rights be damned. (I think he's currently in prison, but I don't know. Maybe he won in court, and maybe such a ruling counted. ) Meanwhile, the people appear to be massively in favor of the moderate leaders.
So if the moderates want computers, by all means let's get them some.
Semantically it may be that only 10% of the Gross National Code Base can be exported. Linux wouldn't even make 10% if just compared to Windows assuming Linux 100% Amer.
Care to also eloborate on why the US was crying like a bitch when the Russians downed the Korean plane or when the Cubans downed the cesna's that were dropping leaflets, in the Russian case I think I remember several US officials saying there is no way a Passenger plane can be mistaken for a fighter...
Wow when you guys go off on a tangent, there is just no end in sight is there?
If you're in Vienna, just take the train out of the EU (which you could probably do for a day trip), drop the software in a mailbox, and leave. Unless Slovakia is also in on these silly restrictions....
(Note to flamers: Iran has one of the best human rights records in the Middle East, and is one of the most democratic countries in the area. Don't believe what you see on CNN. Note that women can vote in Iran (evil) and men can't vote in Saudi Arabia (our ally).)
We do have some impressive laws though...
:) )
Freedom of speech (and every other right) is subject to public order (doing something a gaurd says someone might be offended by) and morality.
Being a member of an orgnation which conductions any business in secret is an offence against the state and subject to prosecution in the special criminal court with no right of appeal and not by jury.
Of course, we don't bomb countries we randomly don't like. (Lack of bombers
First, the Korean airplane was shot down during a peaceful time, well as peaceful as the coldwar could be. Second it was shot down by a jet that could see the actual plane. Third there was nothing of any real danger being represented by the plane, since I think it was in the middle of nowhere.
As for the plane shot down by Cuba, there is not a whole lot of defense for them if they were flying over the area after being told repeatedly to leave. It is unlikely that the plane could have been confused with a fighter plane, since it was a cesna I think with a top speed of less that 170mph at which speed I think most modern jets, even old ones at that plumit to the ground.
Actually, Americans aren't all that bad - I know plenty that are great (FSF, Byrds, Apple, GNU project, etc. etc.) - they've produced their fair share of great individuals, musicians, writers, etc. Its just that some Americans think they're so untouchable and god's gift to earth, they need to have a bit of the other side shown them (that is not told on american media). If the average american knew half of what their government did - they might not be so proud to be american. Thank god that American People!=American Government. i have a lot of faith in people, but not much faith in governments and armies.
In any case, it is true that i did hear the Americans killed 50,000 iraqis - but this news was suppressed on American media for obvious reasons.
count the number of lines of code in the distribution you are shipping
modify the source, adding 10X that number of comments (or unreachable code to be more sure). A perl script would do this nicely.
recompile all the code.
It is now at least 10 times more Australian than US code.
Considering the numerous dictators and terror states the U.S.A. supported and the fact the U.S. sent torture experts to other countries a rather weak argument.
In addition business finally helps the people and supports communication with the rest of the world.
That's not what the GPL says at all. Read it sometime.
GPL'd software can not by any law be considered public domain. It isn't.
*applause*
People keap talking about what is a terorist nation and who dose more eavil things etc..
The simple fact of the matter is that only one single nation on earth has ever droped an "A-Bomb". They cry biterly about India testing Nukes on a Baywolf. They scream about iranians killing a cople hundread people in a plane. The go to war over Iraq stealing some oil filds.
Yet nobody but the US has ever droped the big one. If they can unkill all those women and children in Hirushema they can speak morality and justice.
PS : Yes women and childrean. Most of the men were on the frunt lines.
It seems to me that most of the murderous regimes
we (the US) have supported in the past were supported in the interest of preventing another World War (i.e. attempting to "win" the cold war by supporting rightist regimes against communist insurgents). Now that's not to say that it was a good thing to do, or that people didn't die as a result. I think that the blame lies however with those that allowed communism to become the perceived enemy at the beginning of the Cold War. I don't believe that the US supports murderous regimes solely for its own economic benefit. It is undoubtedly true that any country is more likely to take sides in a dispute in a sovereign nation if its own interests, economic, politcal or otherwise are somehow at stake. You should also keep in mind that often the supposed "victims" of these oppressive, militaristic regimes are just as oppressive and militaristic in their own right (the guerillas, or insurgents, or rebels, or whatever, not the innocent civilians who inevitably end up getting killed by BOTH sides in such conflicts). To chalk up all of the US's interests to sheer economic greed is absurd though. We GIVE more money in aid and support than we could ever GET from many of these countries.
Hmm...
...0% ...30% ...60%
Try this one:
0 - $1200
$1,200 - $29,100
$29,100 -
And, our VAT is 25%.
Welcome to Sweden, where they tax you to death!
/Rickard Osser
Fine, the terrorists may assert a claim to the same logic. However, they clearly target civilians. Go pick up a book or a newspaper and read. It's not usually an ACCIDENT when civilians die from an IRA attack. In any case, I think most civilized nations that have embarked on ventures of war or conflict with other nations would assert the same claim - although in World War II civilian population centers did become legitimate targets for carpet bombing. Frankly, the Serbs should be thankful we don't just carpet bomb them to oblivion, pack up and leave them to clean up the mess. That would be the easiest way to "win" this conflict. Of course, the real foreign policy goal is simply to oust the dictatorial regime of Slobodan Milosevic with somebody who doesn't encourage the butchery and exile of entire ethnic group. And while I may personally disagree with England's claim to Ireland, it is quite obvious to me that the Irish people are not being slaughtered or exiled in some
sort of ethnic cleansing. Therefore, your comparison is complete BS and you should STFU.
I say nobody should do business with countries that have used nukes against other countries. Of course there's only one of those...
I agree pretty much with everything you're saying here. I'm not sure exactly what the best definition of terrorism is. If it's just violence with political ends, then well, hell, any two countries fighting each other are engaging in terrorism. I'm not a big proponent of war or violence. It all sucks. But it's an unfortunate and sometimes necessary evil. There is a distinction to be drawn between the intentional bombing of civilian passenger vehicles and civilian populated locations versus the occasionally misplaced bomb in a general military campaign: if you can show me a large scale military campaign that's been conducted without any civilian casualties, I'd be shocked indeed.
I agree totally. Please, people, don't judge US Citizens by the moronic, greedy, heavyhanded ways of our government. I love my country, and therefore I'm embarassed by this sort of idiocy. The software is (generally) created under a PUBLIC license, meaning it's available to anyone. If the Iranians want Linux, I think it's the will of the programmers that they should have it. End of story. It doesn't suck at all to be an American. Just sucks to have to realize that our government is becoming a lying sack of shit haven for corruption and greed.
There. I feel better now.
Put it this way: If you decide to export Linux from France (Linux has no originating country) to Iran, the US doesn't have jurisdiction on that.
Here's another way to see that. What if Canada votes a law that says that you cannot export software sortware containing more than 0,1% (or even 0%) Canadian code to Iran. Could it enforce the law? (the same answer for US).
The fact is, they can only regulate US companies.
Aww, all you foreigners are just bitter because :P ) has spent the last
the US (NOT America
century bailing the rest of the world out of the
shitstorm it started with the French Revolution.
So what if the US wants to keep a bunch of Irani
wackos from bathing the world in the blood of the
infidel. Personally, I enjoy the freedom to
worship the way I choose. If I were a woman, I'd
also enjoy the privelege of not being treated like property. Fuck Iran. Next topic?
I agree, I've been lots of places in the world, but I like it here.
The usa may do LOTS of evil, moronic things, but It's ALOT better than some places Ive been.
Screw governments.
Lets colonise Mars.
Who's with me.
Where'd you hear the 50k figure, nutbag? The
iraqi media? Some other alleged news
organization with an anti-US agenda? Well?
Thats what I thought.
Oh yeah, most iraqi weapons were of Soviet
Manufacture, not US or even NATO-affiliated.
Cuba is alot closer...
And the big buisness, which strongly influence both the donkeys and the elephants, likes China.
Don't forget, India and Pakistan have both recently demonstrated nukes. Both have done public testing to 'one-up' the other guy. Israel has never made such a brazen demonstration. Get your facts straight.
Isn't the GPL backed by the weight of US law and precedent? In other words, is it enforcable globally?
Designed, not used (except tear gas).
Thay tried to use other chemical weapons to asassinate Castro, but they didn't work.
I don't have an anglo-saxon name, yet I am American.
Just ship 1 Linux CD + 9 other CDs full of junk files.
I forget that materials name which was used in Vietnam. I believe it is called Napalm (spelling?) Infact US is the only country with recorded use of nuclear weapon and Biological weapons. Nuclear weapons were used against Japan. Biological weapons were used against China in 50s. Plague infected fleas and toxin coated turkey feathers. The captured pilots confessed to this. Naturally after they were released, they recanted it. But only after US military threatened them with court martial, if they didnt. Going by the ethos of the times, the pilots faced a certain death if they were court martialled.
More info can be found in one of the recent "The Nation" magazine.
It sickens me to learn of such export restrictions America places on other countries. They call themselves the land of free speech, the land of democracy, etc... It's a complete lie. America is the most self centred, selfish, and self worshiping country on Earth!!
Get a representative. Let's say in Panama, Egypt or any non-Wasenaar country. Export your product and let your representative get Linux. It's all over the world on non-Waseenar signant countries.
It's pretty hard to be held once the software is free.
And things like Wasenaar are quite stupid when dealing with free software.
I wouldn't call napalm a biological weapon
;)
The fleas were drop'd on China (Ningbo, Changde and Zhaiqian) (I'm not positive about the later village) in or around 1942, by... Japan.
Japan's Unit 731 testing delivery systems for biological weapons.
By 1950, the US had more sophisticated methods of delivery germs than Japan's fleas.
Taking the technical issue first, I think we can safely posit that more than 10% of Linux is of US-origin. Due to the Finnish origins of the "guiding light" and the OSS, distributed-development nature of the project we can probably also safely say that Linux is the most 'multinational' OS in widespread global use, certainly compared to obvious competitors such as Win, MacOS and Bell Labs Unix, but that doesn't change the fact that the US provided the largest part (and probably a majority) of the codebase. That of course raises the question of how to measure the national origin of the components of a codebase...
The (most obvious) legal questions:
1. How would a US court assess the national origins of Linux in terms of the 10% rule?
The most plausible answer is that the court would almost certainly base that on the physical location of the individual contributors and/or their parent organizations, strange as that may sound to we borderless Internet types. In 'national security' cases, the courts usually interpret broadly and try to consider the spirit behind the law; thus code contributed by a US citizen, a US agency, or an employee of an American branch of a foreign corporation would all be considered of 'US origin' since the purpose of the sanctions law is to prevent the products of American industry and labor from falling into the hands of states antagonistic to the US. The court would then divide the 'US' lines of code by the total lines of code in the distro supplied to see if it was more than 10%. Futzing with the codebase or creating a screwy distro almost certainly wouldn't work because it would be challenged by the govt.'s expert witnesses (and I'm sure they can find one Linux guru who loves the US/hates Iran). Removing, rather than adding, code to create a bare-bones distro might work.
2. Does a US court have any jurisdiction over an Austrian company?
No, unless that company does business in the US (or would like to in the future...) However, the original author stated that his company had had to get an export licence, and it's not obvious why. I don't have all the answers here, but let's try to clarify a few of the issues involved:
- This is not a crypto issue. As is notorious by now, crypto is treated as munitions, and there are strict restrictions on export and use of it within and between the US/Canada, NATO, and the Wassenar group. This is strictly an 'Iranian sanctions' issue and would equally apply to shipping stale pretzels.
- Sanctions against Iran have been applied by the US, unilaterally. They have not been applied by NATO, the EU, the UN, etc.
- Austria is not a NATO country, but it is a member of the EU. An Austrian poster has already told us that he can't see why software shipments to Iran would be constrained by Austrian policy. France and Germany trade freely with Iran. Under the principle of extraterritoriality, US courts have no right to penalize foreign corporations for violating US laws with respect to a foreign country. The closest analog is the case of Cuba, which is similarly under a unilateral US embargo; the 'Helms-Burton Act' tried to make it a crime for foreign companies to trade with Cuba and indictments were issued against several Canadian and European business executives. Canada and the EU went ballistic and the HBA had to be suspended (although not yet revoked).
So the bottom line is, the Austrian company are probably safe if they obtain a non-US distro for the sake of appearances, say SUSE, and their government is willing to back them up. If, however, the Austrian government has decided to go along with US restrictions for its own purposes, they could be out-of-luck. Welcome to realpolitik. Find a lawyer.
It's my understanding that single people are taxed at nearly double the married rate. This supposedly has something to do with Germany trying to grow its population, which is currently declining due to emmigration.
How nice.
Moron though that guy may be, and silly as it may have been for him to post a "me too" to an obvious troll, why EXACTLY was he moderated down? No reason at all, except that somebody doesn't like his moronic views. Well, gee. Maybe I don't like your moronic views, either, huh?
Oh, yeah, and the idiot who moderated the initial troll is a humorless loser.
If you truly believe the above, how do you explain the persecution of Baha'is in Iran?
He didn't say they were "good", he said they were "less bad". "Less bad" can still be pretty bad, and it doesn't sound to me like a denial of the abuses that have occurred. Whether they really are less bad or more bad than for example Syria, is not a question that I can address because I'm not well enough informed.
I just had a look at that Baha'i page. It's depressing. Some days I really wonder what's wrong with people.
Oh, but those are nice guys -- it's really the bad, bad "baby-killing bastards" causing all the trouble, right? Right. Nobody's lying to you about any of it. Everything you read in the paper is true.
I've seen Sky news. U.S. propaganda sure is bad, but the Brits are no better. Not to mention that Tony Blair is backing up every play we make these days.
And before we count the number of clinic bombings in the U.S., how 'bout if we count the number of right-wing bombings in London recently? Or don't those count?
Other than proliferation of handguns, you'll have to look long and hard before you find anything ugly about the U.S. that you don't have in England, in equal or greater measure. Oh, yeah: Soccer hooligans! Anyone about to make any cracks about U.S. schoolkids shooting each other should count the number of deaths at U.K. sporting events, or the cumulative number of years during which English teams have been banned from playing on the continent.
Gee.
This is fun.
We've discovered a miraculous fact, which nobody ever thought of before: No place is perfect.
Because I happened to be born north of an imaginary line in North America I happen to be Canadian.
No, it's not imaginary. It's the "Oot Line", which represents sort of a genetic watershed. Listen, all of you out there in the great and vast darkness of the wide world, listen: We're forbidden to say this, and I may very well be executed for opening my mouth, but Canadians are the product of a gruesome experiment attempting to reconstruct a hypothetical subspecies of early Man which resulted from intermarraige between Cro-Magnons and Neanderthals. The attempt involved a Jesuit plot to encourage Native Americans (standing in for the more advanced Cro-Magnons) to inter-marry with the brutish, mindless, and degraded French of Quebec.
Jack Kerouac is a good example of the results of this experiment. One need contemplate poor Jack hardly at all before realizing that this madness must stop!
Right now, a multinational group of concerned citizens is working hard to sabotage the next stage of the plan, wherein the Canadian Hordes are scheduled to swarm south over the border and occupy Michigan, Wisconsin, North Dakota, and other loathsome and depressing locations (which they, in their madness and despair, consider desirable real estate). This must not be allowed to happen!
Uh, wait.
Let's think about this for a moment.
The Canadians are going to occupy Michigan? Hopefully Illinois as well? Dare we dream, well, you know . . . Minnesota?! What the HELL am I complaining about?! Good god! WOOO-HOOO!
The Canadians are gonna take Michigan off our hands! They'll have the militia all to themselves! The Michigan Militia will act as cadre to form Canada's first intelligentsia! They will have finally found a place where they're MORE evolved than those around them! Everybody wins.
Whoa!
Cool.
"Oh Canadaa . .
One thing, though: You guys lay one single finger on New England or the Adirondacks and you'll be radioactive dust before you can say "oot", so don't even think about it, eh? As long as we understand each other. While you're at it, if you could see your way clear to annexing Missouri and Texas along with the rest, we'd be much obliged . . .
Guess who pays all the fucking money to bail out these broke-ass nations.
Just my sorry tuppence.
I believe the correct response is "Bite me!"
Well, I'd say there have been plenty of non-groundless arguments in these threads, making a statement like that you obviously have blinkers to the real world on (dont take it personally it goes for the vast majority of the US).
The reason you can just dismiss everything is because you dont want to belive it, or even contimplate that the wonderfull USA could ever make blunders like these. Wake up, every country does this, yours is most definatally, NO exception.
And im not ruled by a communist state or any of your evil foes that are all out to get you. Indeed even your alies come off bad, the bungiling forces of the US killed more allied forces in that Gulf conflict than Iraq forces did. Such as obliterating a British APC killing all inside (the fact that it was in the middle of the advancing forces and moving in the same direction, there was absoloutly no excuse for that). The UN forces were more worried about what was backing them up, not infront of them.
You just need to take a more worldly view on things, at the moment when american politicians take about there involvements around the world, its all military involvment there on about, is that the actions of a peace making country?
As a Briton, I wasn't aware we had a "claim" to Ireland, the British people would love to lose Northern Ireland, It costs us a fortune in police,, army, health care (its free in Britain,after all) and unemployment benefit.
However, the majority of Northern Ireland want to stay in the UK, so what can you do?
Any responsible person should be embarased bt the above statement. It has no purpose or place outside your own small mind.
USA is the bigger colletion of fascim ever seen.
Regard linux, you can export it *everywhere*, as any software. No one can deny you to do this. NO ONE. Stop.
Had there never been a trade embargo with Cuba, I seriously doubt that nation would still be Marxist...
It's getting on just fine as it is, I'm sure.
Yeah, you forgot to mention that there is a conflict in progress ........ Or have you got your head buried in the sand.
Very, very, very, funny.
Moderate him up to at least +3 (if not +5)
Dante - Who is scared of cookies
Alan,
I could not have said it better.
You rock, man!
zebulon (who forgot his slash password)
>And while I may personally disagree with
>England's claim to Ireland
I know this is getting off topic, but is there something in the drinking water in the US which makes anyone whos grandfather once drank a pint of Guiness talk utter drivel about Ireland, or something?
Here are a few facts:
1) England is a region of a country called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, or the United Kingdom for short.
2) The Republic of Ireland is a soverign nation in the British Isles, sharing a land border with teh United Kingdom.
3) The Republic of Ireland was once a constituent part of the United Kingdom, just as England now is. It left the union early this century to form a soverign state.
4) The United Kingdom has no territorial claim over the Republic of Ireland, which it recognises as a soverign state.
5) The United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland do have 2 current territorial disputes, the 6 counties of Northern Ireland are one, the uninhabited island of Rockall is the other.
6) Despite this, relations between the two countries are extremely cordial.
7) Northern Ireland remains part of the United Kingdom through democratic consent and the principle of self-determination. The governments of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland both accept that the future status of Northern Ireland is to be deterimined sorely by the democratic will of its inhabitants. If, at some point in the future, a majority of the population of Northern Ireland wish the territory to leave the United Kingdom, it will.
8) No part of the island of Ireland has ever been a colony of the United Kingdom.
9) The IRA have not detonated a bomb in years.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled programme.
You wrote: "I can understand how a lot of people can be jealous of the USA though since it is a common human trait to be jealous of a more successful person or entity.."
Yeah, guess you believe that only in the US people have colored TV, fridgerators and junk-food restaurants.
And US law is really great, it grants people lot's of freedom (safe things like automatic guns, software-export even if the author deciedes it should be free etc.) and forbidds dangerous things (like alcohol, some wierd forms of sex etc.).
And of course, tourist almost never get shot in the US, and it's only by chance that black persons (or are they called american africans political correctly nowadays?) are senteced to death.
You can really be proud of your nation, and it's sure that the rest of the world is jealous.
And it is not that the world hates Bill Gates either. Just the software-companies, who offer their software for Gates' OS only (and even his company himself is working on a port of their office-package to Linux).
Who died and made the US the "world majority judge"? We did. The US pays its dues in troop deployments, cowardly verbal attacks from people like you, monetary aid to peoples around the world (when our own people are starving), long working hours, high taxes, etc...etc. Your nations signed the agreement to join the US in these technology embargoes. If you have a problem with it...look no further than your own country's politicians. Who is the one who is misguided.
In order,
US anti tech embargoes include the EU, a pretty dangerous facist dictatorship if ever i saw one.
US is a self imposed world judge, when anyone else has a go at solving the worlds problems (like buying bananas from the worlds poorest nations in an effort to stop them going belly up) the US dumps on them.
The US pays its way when nations go bust, so thats what you were doing when you used IMF loans to force through the extraction of billions of dollars from the troubled economies of South East Asia. And presumably that is also why you are sending so many troops to Kosovo is it.
Your own people are starving are they? well invest in a welfare system and stop wasting billions of dollars on pointless space missions and hi-tech bombs (which are rendered useless by your crap inteligence anyway).
not an AC can't be arsed to remember passwords ric.collett@excite.com
My thought is that if Linux is copyrighted under the GPL it is a USA copyright therefore making it a US property, and subject to US export law. If you did export your GPL based software, therefore copyrighted under the GPL, then one could make the argument that the GPL is merely a form of public domain that is protected from derivetive works; hence should be availible internationally, subject only to USA/NATO security concerns. But, if your software is commercal software, then the source code is yours, and the linux port is merely a operating system vairation, as long as the software in question is written by Austrians, and copyrighted by Austrians then it is subject only to Austrian copyright and export laws. As Austria is part of NATO the same security concerns may arise.
Spyder without a password
I was shocked and stunned to discover that Iranian universities are obviously and blatantly getting hold of a wide range of OSs, including linux. See for example:
http://www.fos.ut.ac.ir/text/about/server.htm
http://www.fos.ut.ac.ir/text/about/softw.htm
ftp://ftp.fos.ut.ac.ir/pub/
http://Sina.Sharif.ac.ir/~ceinfo/
There's even (the horror!) a FreeBSD mirror:
ftp://ftp.fos.ut.ac.ir/pub/unix/FreeBSD/
Do you think it's legal to import it..?
Is your memory that short?? you definately forgot Agent Orange. hmm.... selective memory lose maybe?
I'm starting to think that I'm the only person in the world who thinks a proliferation of handguns in the hands of responsible citizens is a good thing.
This is a joke, right?
Damn near every single time weapons of any kind are mentioned on Slashdot, dozens of maniacs swarm forth out of the woodwork, robotically parrotting NRA dogma and savagely flaming anybody who doesn't toe their ideological line.
They're scum. They're morons. Some of the things they say may accidentally be true, but they, personally and specifically, are scum.
Well, we do speak English (or at least a variant ;-)), taxes:
0-33,000 - 20.5%
33000 - whatever you make - 33%
GST (VAT) 12.5%
And, even though the law doesn't allow it, we grow some of the best green stuff in the world - it grows like a weed!!!!
What consequeces? Bombs all over Europe? Rotfl.
Gov't likes to make lots of things legal, but seldom says that something is explicitly permitted. And especially when dealing with places like Iran, Iraq, Libya, and such, you will only gain the intense scrutiny of gov't officials who will try to figure out what your 'real' business with these unfriendly nations is. In short, nothing but trouble. Unless your profit margin is expected to be really high, I'd say it's not worth the legal agony. And if it turns out that your Linux system you sold to Syria was used to guide a small missile to its target or to cooridinate simultaneous explosions all over embassys in Africa, you will likely be sitting naked under a spotlight explaining how you aren't supporting terrorism to gov't officials with really wide legal latitudes to clamp down on terrorists. Stay away. Stay far away.
...is that a hostile act?
More than 10% of the code in most distributions is written by the FSF, which is pretty much all-American. Much of the other code is as well. I don't think you'll be able to squeeze in under 10%. Even if you can, the more important question is not "are we within the law" but "will we get sued." If the US chooses to sue, even if you are legally correct, you'll be bogged down in court of a long time, and you'll loose a lot of money on the trial. If you are breaking the law but the US doesn't sue, you're fine. I don't know what the US's policy is here.
However, you could distribute your product seperately from the main OS, and Iran shouldn't have a problem getting a copy of Red Hat or Debian from some country not bound by US law.
To the fools advocating SuSE, claiming Linux is Finnish and what not: Stop it. More of the OS was developed by GNU/FSF than is in the kernel. Linus himself just wrote about 5% of the code in the current kernel. Huge portions of the OS (XFree86, Apache, etc.) are US-centric. That holds true for ANY distribution.
- pmitros (on almost no sleep)
"Last time I checked the USA doesn't tell its citizens to go around and bomb passenger airlines"
Just a few years ago US shot down an Iranian passenger Airliner killing around 200 Iranians, claiming that it looked like a fighter jet, I think that counts as shooting down a passenger airline, becuase no matter how much the US lies a passenger jet can never look like a fighter jet, not even on the sophisticated radars employeed by the US. You need to recheck your facts, if you had any in your post.
These comments I see here about the USA are very distrurbing. I agree wholeheartedly that the US government regulations on crypto and general export are absurd, and I, as well as thousands of other net users, fight by letter writing campaigns to senators and congresspeople and daily attempts to educate friends and coworkers about the benefits of free exchange and export. But just because our government has some absurd regulations that you (and I) don't like, does not make us a terrorist supporting nation like Iran. Now admittedly, Iran is changing and becoming more free and open. But in the past, the Islamic fundamentalist regime supported cowardly terrorist bombing of selected civilian targets to further dispicable religious and political ends. This is simply NOT akin to attacking the Serbs, who are committing genocide and forced emigration on the Albanian people, and thereby attempting to destabilize their neighboring countries and promote their own despotic, unfree, nondemocratic regime. This region is HIGHLY unstable, and in the past has played a key role in destabilizing other European countries, as in World War I. The fact is, some civilian targets have been mistakenly hit, which is unavoidable but unfortunate in a military operation of this scale. The US government, say what you will about it, has no personal grudge against innocent civilians in Serbia or elsewhere. And it is a difficult thing indeed to use force on the government of a country without harming its civilian population as well. The US is not a terrorist regime: we are attempting, to the best of our ability within our constraints to prevent a dangerous destabilization of Europe, and we are doing so in a joint effort with European nations, most of whom now support the operations in Yugoslavia even more strongly than does the US (although it took them a while to realize that they supported it, while they wasted everyone's time complaining about the "Imperialist" forces of the US). GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULLS: the US is not an Imperialist power. The US government does not want to colonize Serbia, nor to make money by exploiting the Serbian people, nor any such thing which would be reminiscent of Imperialism. We are looking out for our best interests, our allies in Europe's best interests, and the interests of innocent civilians (to the extent that we can).
> Ummm. Last time I checked the USA doesn't tell its citizens to go around and bomb passenger airlines.
Nope, the army just bombs:
Civilian media, markets, hospitals, passenger trains, refugee convoys, passenger buses, graveyards, appartment blocks, other peoples embassasies...
Anything I've left out?
Easier said than done. Suppose all the border rest removed, would you accept the sudden surge of immigrants from the poorer countries to Canada. Suppose only half percent of population of china planned to come to Canada, would you accept 6 million people in short period of time. The border restrictions are to separate the "haves" and "have nots" and maintain the status quo. I feel that many people who maintain such views do not think of the consequence of "one fine day removing the border restrictions". I am of the view that there should be no border restriction. But I cannot think of a way to remove it without the ensuing chaos which might follow. Perhaps there is a way. I dont expect to see it happening in my lifetime though.
By mistake, I submitted a partially written post and I did not review it. I hope of of the moderators remove it
Ummm. Last time I checked the USA doesn't tell its citizens to go around and bomb passenger airlines. I can understand how a lot of people can be jealous of the USA though since it is a common human trait to be jealous of a more successful person or entity.. take Microsoft for example. Why does everyone hate Bill Gates? If any of you were in his position you'd be doing EXACTLY the same thing. I'm getting sick of the low-life people and countries of this world badgering the successful people and countries in this world with any kind of lie they can come up with to support their groundless idiotic arguments.
Ohhhh GAG! Sombody pass the barf bag!
I don't know of a single nation on earth which doesn't comit and justify some sort of "terroristic" act. The USA included. Terrorism - by definition it's impossible for state-sponsored war machines to comit terrorist acts. If we are to stop trade with nations because of their politics, then (imho) we can't rightly trade with any nation. We're all scum. Like it or not.
On the other hand, why deny the Iranian public a very good product? The majority of them, like the majority of Americans, aren't directly responsible for the actions of their leadership. And we're not talking about exporting Linux to Iran for the sole purpose of supporting Anti-american activities. Sorry, but I don't by the rhetoric behind sanctions. It's nothing short of starving the people of a foriegn land to acheive your own political goals. Sanctions hurt the lay people more than their governing bodies (consider Iraq). Targeting civilians is a hallmark of a terrorist action.
Actually, Nike shoes are made by extremely poor women in Indonesia. Last I heard, one less Michael Jordan commercial would bring them out of poverty. Of course, he is retired now...
Some facts about Nike in Indonesia:
Wages used to be $2.46 per day. During the 1998 economic collapse, they fell to 70 cents per day. According to the Indonesian human rights groups, a family subsistence wage is at least $4 per day.
Weight loss to due malnutrition is common among Nike production workers.
Police routinely meet organizing attempts with violence. Union leader Muchtar Pakpahan is in and out of jail, facing a possible death sentence. Yet workers repeatedly go on strike, because they cannot meet their most basic needs with the money they make.
Regardless of whether there are legal export restricions, please carefully consider your decision to trade with Iran. More generally, please don't export to terroristic nations, or those oppressive to their own people. I understand that the need to make money weighs heavily in the decision making process, but this is a small piece of leverage that we as individuals and companies can exert on these nations.
Of course, export all of the food and medicine you can. I don't think there is any moral reason to deny people food; I feel that would be terroristic in and of itself.
Iran has definitely been trying to improve recently, which would make the decision harder for me. They looks like they are going through some sort of Islamic Reformation. Maybe we should simply reach out to them now. However, I think people should think carefully before deciding to support that country.
Anonymous for voicing controversial ideas (hopefully not flamebait.)
That only works if you are only exporting the kernel and not a whole distro. Most of the GNU software was developed in the US AFAIK. Even with distros developed out of the country (S.U.S.E. for example), there is almost certainly more than 10% code from the US in there.
By the way, does anybody know WHY the US has this restriction? Is it part of some sort of embargo? And where did this 10% figure come from?
I read the internet for the articles.
Posted by The Mongolian Barbecue:
it is very important to keep oil producing nations such as iran subjugated so we can squeeze as much oil out of them as we want. thus, contributing to their technology is a mistake, since it helps them to be independant and strong. so don't export. who cares about the terrorism they inflict- that only kills a few random US civilians and doesn't hurt the bottom line anyhow.
Posted by The Mongolian Barbecue:
problems with ireland
1) Everyone is always drunk, except for punk rockers, who are always high on smack.
2) IRA extremists are always setting off bombs in shopping areas, except when they take time out to beat up on the locals.
3) Accents fucking annoying.
Posted by Lord Kano-The Gangster Of Love:
>>I do agree with my gov't. however that some things that people in the middle east do are morally wrong and digusting to me.
I think that many things that people IN MY OWN country do are morally wrong and disgust me.
>>*HINT* They know this and are always looking over their shoulder to see if the people approve.
They don't care if people approve unless it's an election year, the American people become progressively stupider with each generation when it comes to politics and technology. We live in a country where Bill Clinton was elected president TWICE. We live in a country where Ted Kennedy gets to sit in judgement of people when thy're accused of sexual harrassment! If they cared about what the people want, they'd legalize medical Marijuana. They don't because the drug companies give heavily to the campaign coffers to keep it illegal.
>>I would like to see the day that EVERY individual has this power.
We'd only have that power *IF* we all used it.
>>I'm sure that some in the US gov't are sorry that the old DARPANET ever took off and grew to the Internet we all know and contribute to today.
Have you ever though that maybe, just maybe they intended to use it to track and monitor us all? But the explosion of people on it made that impossible? (not that I believe this, but I'm just raising the issue) after all there was a suspect in custody for writing the Mellissa virus in less than a week. They used the 'net to track him down.
>>Don't screw it up by helping those that abuse the rights of their own people!!
Oh, and the US government never does that huh? How about barbecuing children inside their homes? How about shooting unarmed women in the face? How about slamming pregnant women into walls stomache first? How about stomping people's pet dogs? How about illegally entrapping people for their political beliefs?
These are all things done by the "three letter" divisions within the US government.
I'd rather be here than anywhere else in the world, but we've got a long way to go.
LK
How about these definitions:
Terrorism: Any coordinated violent action by the people of one nation against the people of the same, or another nation which IS NOT officially supported by the national government of the acting people.
Act of War: Any coordinated violent action by the people of one nation against the people of the same, or another nation which IS officially supported by the national government of the acting people.
Any feedback?
If you do a Onsite install. Just download a copy of any distribution that you want from the internet. Since Linux can be downloaded from anywhere you should be able to get around any laws about exports.
( giggle giggle )
How do you think most small websites get 128bit encription. They download it from any number of sites that has source code.
U.S. Laws are making the world a very frustrating place to work.
Last one in jail is a fascist.
I assume that your code is distribution-independent, so why no have the end user get a copy of S.u.S.E Linux..?
This sig left unintentionally blank.
More generally, please don't export to terroristic nations, or those oppressive to their own people.
I suppose I ought to stop exporting the good old US of A...
This sig left unintentionally blank.
If you boycot some entity, it should be because you believe it will do some good. Not just in order to be consistent. Consistency shouldn't be its own goal.
So if the US Government really believe the Cuba boycot will help liberate the Cuban people (it hasn't worked very well until now), then they should continue the boycot, regardless of how they treat other totalitarian nations.
I happen to believe the best weapons of the US against communist totalitarian regimes are Disney, McDonald and soap operas (i.e. the american way of life). These generally follow the trade, so boycots are unlikely to be effective against that kind of countries.
#ifndef _Bloody_Stupid_ #endif
2. Write a short shell script which inserts compiler-valid junk into the twiddles.c file, between the #ifdef and #ifndef. Doesn't matter what. Ensure that twiddles.c makes for 90% of all the code in the Linux kernel.
3. Add -DBLOODY_STUPID to the compiler string in the Makefile.
4. Add twiddles.c to the list of objects compiled and linked by the kernel. Don't worry about bloat, as the whole of twiddles.c will compile, link and optimise to next to nothing.
You now have a US-legal kernel, as more than 90% of your code is GUARANTEED produced outside of the USA.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Note to flamers: Iran has one of the best human rights records in the Middle East, and is one of the most democratic countries in the area. Don't believe what you see on CNN. Note that women can vote in Iran (evil) and men can't vote in Saudi Arabia (our ally).)
& DocumentID=234
If you truly believe the above, how do you explain the persecution of Baha'is in Iran?
You want to find out what I'm talking about:
http://www.bahai.org/bworld/main.cfm?token=105971
Of course, once you have Irish citizenship you have an automatic right to reside and work in any of the 15 European Union countries - so if you get bored of Eire you can take yourself off to Denmark, the Netherlands, Italy, UK, wherever...
Nick (whose trying to decide between the UK, Ireland, France and the Netherlands when he goes back to Europe)
-- "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park" - Jim Moran
How do you know if a programme is American? Is it so when the company or organisation that develops it is in America? Or is it when the developers are American? If it's the former, then Linux doesn't qualify as there is no central organisation managing its development. If it's the latter, then it would be plausible to say that more than 10% of Linux developers are in America.
If you were to take the central-organisation point of view, you might want to consider using OpenBSD. It shouldn't be constrained by USA's export laws.
(Note: Since it's Iran, we shouldn't go straight ahead into saying "dain-bramaged export laws" or some other vitriol related to the subject. It's a more serious situation than with cryptographic software).
In Soviet Russia, Jesus asks: "What Would You Do?"
This has NOTHING to do with encryption. Iran is one of a few countries that hardly anything can be exported to from the US, because they are considered an "enemy of the state" and the US government doesnt want them to have any technology if it can prevent it.
This is quite likely the funniest comment I've ever read on Slashdot ever.
-- adr
I would have to believe that since Linux is being developed by a world-wide collection of programmers, none of which actually "owns" the code provided, that Linux itself must be exempt from any trade or export barriers.
As the questioner pointed out, it is very easy to access a distribution (ANY distribution) of Linux from anywhere in the world. By developing a product to run on Linux, you should be fairly certain that your prospective customer's already have FREE access to the Linux base itself.
Michael J. Ball
Open Source Who's Who
Michael J. Ball
Open Source Who's Who
http://support.lcg.org/Whoswho/ unix_guru@hotmail.com
Yes, he currently works for NASA, but before that he did do a stint at the NSA. Donald Becker has worked at many places over the years (those that I know about are Harris Corp, NSA, MIT and NASA), when he first started working on the Linux ethernet drivers he was working at the NSA though and thusly the copyright included in the ethernet drivers that he wrote.
-- Ed Bugg --You have freedom of choice, but not of consequences.--
True enough, except for one little detail: Linus doesn't like in Finland anymore. True, I don't think he's a citizen at this point (has he even lived in the US long enough to be eligible?) but all of the code he's written since moving here was written on American soil, therefore it'd be considered American by our paranoid government. They'd probably try to say that the code he wrote before then is too, citing some obscure law or another.
Sad to say, Linux probably isn't exportable. Neither will most of the GNU stuff, since even though GNU is not comprised solely of Americans it is an American organization and holds the copyrights on almost all of the code, if not all of it (I'll have to check their policy on that again).
Again, however, you could do what the PGP writers did, though that'd take a long time.
Fierce and warlike tribe huh. Then perhaps you can tell me why we haven't raised weapons in war since the 13th century? AFAIK we are the only nation in Europe, and in the industrialized states with that record.
ps. I wouldn't call that thing with the Brits between 1960-1976 a war, but it's amazing how fast they "surrendered" when we threatened to leave NATO :)
----- Not only am I perfect, I'm icelandic too.
I mean, hell, everybody else must be plain stupid if they don't play american football or baseball. The rest of the world must be pretty stupid since it's playing proper football (american: soccer). As for Formula1? What's that? .. Oh.. I see, it's like Indy 500, only it's not american!
A word of advice, take your head out of your a$$ and look around you. The world does, amazingly, NOT revolve around that thing called US of A.
Just get someone at an Iranian University to ftp a Linux distribution from any non-US public FTP server. That way the Iranian citizen/University and government can deal with the issue. Heh, do you really think Iran would extradite an Iranian citizen to the US for downloading publicly available software? (I doubt they even have any kind of extradition agreement with the United States)
I hope someone has taken a good look at that code.
fish and pipes
I have an former Iranian as a flatmate and from all accounts personal freedoms are much stronger than in Pro-American countries such as Saudi Arabia an Kuwait. Religious law is imposed much less streictly than either of the above countries to boot. Even so it was not enough for her and she left.
---- Backwards compatible -- If it's not backwards it's not compatible
I was rather annoyed some time ago when installing some US made software on my home PC when the liscence basically prohibited people from a list of nationalities from using the software. At the time my flatmate was an Iranian and legally could not use this software. It was just a simple productivity tool, not something that could have terrorist application. My flatmate did not approve of the ruling theocracy etc (to the point of having left Iran to avoid it), was not living in Iran and was not in any way hostile to the USA. The computer was in a third country.
These things only exist to let a crooked politian in one (rather nationalistic and beligerant) country claim to be doing something about a problem (that the country partly caused). Depriving the Iranians of word processors and spread sheets isn't going to do a lot.
Ugh
---- Backwards compatible -- If it's not backwards it's not compatible
A quick grep through /usr/src/linux/drivers/net/*.c
reveals the following.
Thanks
Bruce
3c501.c: Director, National Security Agency. This software may be used and
3c503.c: Director, National Security Agency. This software may be used and
3c507.c: Director, National Security Agency.
3c509.c: Director, National Security Agency. This software may be used and
82596.c: National Security Agency. This software may only be used and distributed
8390.c: Director, National Security Agency.
ac3200.c: National Security Agency. This software may only be used and distributed
arc-rimi.c: Director, National Security Agency. This software may only be used
arcnet.c: Director, National Security Agency. This software may only be used
at1700.c: Director, National Security Agency.
atp.c: Director, National Security Agency.
com20020.c: Director, National Security Agency. This software may only be used
com90io.c: Director, National Security Agency. This software may only be used
com90xx.c: Director, National Security Agency. This software may only be used
cops.c: * Director, National Security Agency.
daynaport.c: Director, National Security Agency.
depca.c: (as represented by the Director, National Security Agency).
e2100.c: Director, National Security Agency. This software may be used and
fmv18x.c: Director, National Security Agency.
hp.c: Director, National Security Agency.
ipddp.c: * Director, National Security Agency.
lance.c: Director, National Security Agency.
ne.c: Director, National Security Agency.
ne2k-pci.c: by the Director, National Security Agency.
pcnet32.c: * Director, National Security Agency.
skeleton.c: * Director, National Security Agency.
smc-ultra.c: Director, National Security Agency.
wd.c: Director, National Security Agency.
Bruce Perens.
The software is owned by its individual authors or their funding agency. For example, many of the networking drivers in the Linux kernel are declared to be owned by the United States Government as represented by the director of the National Security Agency. That is the copyright owner for most of Donald Becker's work. Fortunately, those drivers are under the GPL, and the government can't take the GPL back.
I actually have some question regarding whether the Government's copyright is legitimate and whether or not the networking drivers are in the public domain. However, they are very definitely U.S.-produced software regardless of their copyright status.
If your government is cooperating in a U.S. trade embargo on Iran, they've signed a treaty that says they'll do so, and they're likely to take their export restrictions seriously. I suspect that there is more than 10% U.S. content in a Linux distribution, but I'd have to audit one to make sure.
A recent U.S. court decision supported that some software was protected free speech, but I don't think it went far enough to help overturn a trade embargo.
Thanks
Bruce Perens
Bruce Perens.
For a while after signing the agreement I was really worried though..
--
Pirkka
...which actually works quite nicely as a firearm filter.
Borders have their uses. But true, all too often they get in the way. Good thing we have the Internet!
-- LaTeX, The Best There Is
...source lines? Binary bytes? Directory entries?
I would rather guess that what is meant is 10% of the code's monetary value. That's what usually applies when stating any product's ``home-grown-ness''. But I may be wrong; read the treaty/regulation text.
If it is 10% of money value, it's simple: The code itself if worth 0,00 Sch. on the free market. It's the packaging that adds monetary value. So use a non-US distribution, like SuSE or PHT.
Anyway, best is probably to teach the Iranians to burn their own distro's. It's about time they learned it, and might even be the start of a good business!
-- LaTeX, The Best There Is
No, there is nothing anyone can do, because of the nature of the distributed development of OSS. How can any country prevent another of getting Linux, Beowulf, FreeBSD, or any other OSS application when it is available from dozens of CD-ROm vendors and hundreds of Internet servers?
You bring up an interesting point, one I had not thought of before, but when RMS says "free as in speech, not free as in beer", I am afraid it also means free to be applied to evil purposes.
that the CIA doesn't have an old map of your city lying around....could be bad for you.
Seriously though.....I wouldn't do it, maybe because I trust people about as far as I can throw them.....
And all of you with these lofty notions of peace and love and crap, realize that the world is a terrible place, always has been and always will be. It doesn't matter if it is USA, or Iran, somebody is trying to screw over someone else, that is just the way it works. I don't like everything the US does, but I would rather be here than most places. Just deal with the fact that Utopia or Xanadu, or whatever you want to call it will not exist on this planet, ever......at least not while humans with conscious thoughts are around, and I think that's fine.....
PS......I saw a NIKE comment earlier.......I wonder how much more a pair of sneakers would cost if the wages were right....we would all need to go shoeless, since I can barely afford them now.....
Who is the master of foxhounds, and who says the hunt has begun? -Pink Floyd
Ah yes, lawyers do cost money but if you can get the ACLU on your side they're a lot cheaper. So make sure the laws violate some form of free expression and fight away!!!
That is not how the GPL works. What the GPL specifies is that IF you give the binary to a person, you must also make the source available to them. It does not specify that you _must_ redistribute the code. Therefore, it is still within the rights of an author (in the US outside the 9th circuit, say) to create or modify GPL'ed code that cannot be exported somewhere (cryptography software), as long as no one violates the law by exporting it.
This is a necessary practical limitation to the freedom specified by the GPL, as otherwise stupid countries' regulations (i.e., the cryptography=munitions BS in this country) would make all GPL'ed software illegal to create. RMS is not advocating breaking the law, at least not in this context. =)
Kyle
--
Kyle R. Rose, MIT LCS
[ home ]
Or whoever you had to contact to get the export licence for your own software from. I think the important question is "how will your government interpret the regulations if you supply Linux". We can't answer that (at least I haven't seen any replies from Austrian government officials). For example, does the 10% rule apply to a distribution as a whole, or each package, or every individual file in it? Does "American" mean written in America? Supplied from America? Containing any American code at all?
If you get an answer you don't like, you then have to worry about whether it is worth the cost of challenging it in court, if possible.
The simplest answer, if it's commercially acceptable, would probably be to tell your customer that that you are happy to supply the Linux version of your software, but that they will have to get Linux themselves.
rant
Not to deflate your ego, but over half of all US citizens do not have Anglo Saxon names
Yeah, but having watched US TV for the last three weeks, it seems the ones with Anglo-Saxon names are more inclined to be part of the lunatic fringe or ill-informed isolationists.
The short length of US history, and the strong sense of cultural affinity that many US citizens share with their or their ancestors homeland is at odds with American jingoism. I will never understand how such a racially diverse and affluent country can be so ill-informed and hypocritical.
I find many faults with my homeland, not least the lack of full egalitarianism, and the existence of a state funded monarchy, but find it infinitely preferable to the US.
Chris Wareham
My comment had nothing to do with proportions of the code that are or are not written by US citizens. It pointed out that regardless of that, the Linux trademark is owned by a Finnish citizen. Many major packages outside of the FSF assigned code also have questionable legal status. MySQL for example.
The attempts by the US government to limit dissemination of intellectual property (vis. software source code) are remarkably similar to Soviet control of all intellectual property. Have a look on the web for information about Samizdat, the Novy Mir journal, Socialist-Realism and authors like Solzhenitsyn. Although I doubt that software embargos will have the power to bring down a government ...
Chris Wareham
I think you'd have a hard time proving how much GNU code is American. And given that the list of GNU maintainers has a vast number of non-Anglo Saxon names on it, I think you could be wrong.
...
Don't get all flustered that some 'terrorist' state is getting it's hands on Uncle Sams crown jewels. You seem to forget the decidedly iffy way that the Carter administration tried to infringe Iranian sovereignty. They also gave asylum to the Shah of Iran, who was undoubtedly guilty of mismanagement of the Iranian economy.
Having watched US TV for the last three weeks while on a business trip, I can see that US jingoism is alive and kicking
Chris Wareham
That's what she told me, anyway. I don't really care, I'm happy to call it whatever, but I hear plenty of non-Americans calling it America.
There are many Americans who don't buy all the crap the military-industrial-media complex feeds us, and are actually pretty good people, and agree with you 100% on all the important issues (like idiotic imperialist arrogant export controls). However, the general population doesn't control our government as much as one would think. Some of us are trying to change that, and moral support from elsewhere helps.
Feel free to criticize "the US government", "US foreign policy" (hey, I'm with ya), or even "some Americans", but not "Americans" as a whole.
Thanks!
Hasn't the US designed and used chemical and biological weapons?
Iran is not the same Iran from 1980. Things have changed. US export restrictions against Iran are stupid. As are US export restrictions against Cuba.
-an American citizen that lived in Iran for 4 years
--Be human.
Let me begin by saying I'm not a Lawyer. I'll ammend that by saying that you should get one. If you have a s/w package that's good enough to export, you can afford a lawyer to give you the quick run down of what is and is not legal for your country/region/situation.
As many have pointed out, the problem here are the export control laws in Austria with respect to Iran and U.S. written code, as established by the Wassenaar Arrangement. As such, you may not be able to export Linux, or parts thereof (e.g. Don Becker's net drivers) to Iran, without falling under Austrian sanctions. However, not all countries have these sanctions. So what you do is export your package, including any U.S. written GPL code, to a third country (i.e. Jamaca) where you set up a separate distribution company incorperated under local (Jamacian) law. This company does nothing more than act as a middle man between you and your Iranian customers. This is essentially what is done in money laundering, except that the Jamician holding company in that case is a bank (I understand that Jamician law is very kind to financial institutions). This usually complicates matters so severly (as international law is involved) that no one would try to prosecute any simple legalities. The only time I've heard of prosecutions in an arrangement such as described is when it's being done to cover strictly illegal activities, such as drug-running.
So is that what software distribution has become? Drug running? I'm remined of Burroughs origional Blade Runner (not the movie version of DADOES). I hope not, but I don't know. What I do know is that you need a lawyer to work out the details, but at least this might give you a general direction to head.
On the flip side, as others have noted, Iran has undergone a dramatic cultural change in the last few years. I would say the political culture there is much more diplomatic than they were three years ago. I would venture that there is the distinct possiblility that they'll be removed from the list of sensitive nations in the not to distant future. But don't hold your breath. By that I mean in the next decade. It won't help your bottom line now, but it's something to watch out for.
The question is
1)whether the US laws will impact any future trade you may do with the US.
1b) whether such trade is likely
2) Whether Austrian law further restricts your ability to trade with Iran, or adds punitive measures to the US regulations.
I suspect 2 is unlikely and 1 is likely and only you know the answer to 1b.
If I write a lex/yacc parser, is my contribution counted by the lines of lex/yacc code I write, or the number of C source lines that they produce?
If I write it in lisp and each paren gets its own line, then you reformat my code so each page fits on one line, has my contribution changed? This restriction sounds stupid and totally unenforcable.
JET Program: see Japan, meet intere
I'm shocked and amazed at the number of posts advocating the violation of US laws. Especially the claims that the GPL is immune to export restrictions... HELLO is any one home... Then PGP would be freely exportable.
I would contact your national department of comerce or equivilent organization.
Thanks for telling me. I am half Danish half Icelandic so I know. Iceland is part of Nato FYI. If you must know England has been an "Aggressor" as late as 1960. They had a big bruhaa over fishing rights with British Navy protecting the Scottish Trawlers. My point was Iceland are not going to do anything. If you dont like Iceland pick Andorra. PS. Most Vikings were softies they just got bad press ;)
Help fight continental drift.
I agreed with you. The concept of National states are an anacronism and root to much evil. The best way to get rid of this concept is render it irrelevant. Long live the Web. Get the source code from the weakest link in this Nationalism Chain. Download from Iceland (These 360,000 brave people does not have an army) and you are probably safe.
Help fight continental drift.
Hard questions.
Certainly more than 10% of the code in at least some key utilities that a Linux pretty much requires is written by Americans. Start with gcc, grep and ls, and work from there. Almost certainly the rule does not care about what the programmer wants so there is not a good case for saying that the FSF code is free because they intended it that way. Even worse, the GPL works against you since it depends upon ownership having remained with the author.
My recommendation? Seek out a Linux distribution in another country that pays no attention to silly US laws and work out a deal where they buy Linux + support from there, and your product separately.
Regards,
Ben Tilly
My usual seat in the cluetrain is at A HREF="http://pub4.ezboard.com/biwethey.ht
Governments of all stripes are torn between wanting "progress" and yet wanting to control it. China is a classic example. They want economic progress, and are permitting a few free market reforms to encourage that growth, yet they are scared to death of the personal freedom that is an inseperable part of a free market.
Do everything you can to encourage and and all kinds of freedom in Iran. Freedom is contagious, a virus; free source may be a small tool, but a tool it is. A few Iranians will see the amount of freedom out there, and spread a few words. A few more will use Linux to set up their own web sites and ISPs, with the government less able to control it. Thus will freedom spread.
Hiding freedom is the opposite of helping it spread.
--
Infuriate left and right
At least they don't have to worry about NT.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Furthermore, I thought that Becker's drivers are copyright by him personally, and not NASA or whatever agency he works for.
You have a good point that the US Government is not allowed to copyright anything per se; anything they produce is in the public domain.
Excellent, thoughtful point. thank you for pointing this out.
the notion of a religious theocracy grates against my nerves pretty strongly.
As opposed to a secular theocracy? ;-) Seriously I agree with you here... Neither Iran nor Yugoslavia nor any of the other nations on the US's official shit list is exactly a libertarian utopia. So in most respects, Americans are better off than most in terms of political freedom. However we are still very very far from the ideals of Thomas Jefferson et al who advocated a limited Federal government that was powerful within its domain, yet whose domain was very limited. The Feds seem to think that everyone's business is their own. They also seem to think that duplicating every state law at a Federal level is also a keen idea.
Of course, it should be said that the blame for all of this rests squarely with the American voters, that tiny fraction of the adult population that actually gets out there and determines who runs things. We elected these assholes who wrote these idiotic laws, now we have to deal with the consequences.
That said, a poster in this thread had an excellent idea... Ireland is a fine, fine, non-aligned country. And, I happen to be of Irish ancestry myself, or so I am told. And my girlfriend has red hair, so she's GOT to be Irish, right?! And if I can claim Irish citizenship, then I'm entitled to travel around various EU nations such as the Netherlands. Look out Europe, here I come!
And re: what the poster below me says, yeah, I'd probably better go in and look at the NE2k code to be sure that all my packets aren't being forwarded to the line-eater. ;-)
On the other hand, and this is a big other hand, not too many countries are much better. I would rather live in Fascist USA than Uber-Fascist China. The list of free, democratic, non-warlike nations grows ever shorter... hmmm, I wonder if the Netherlands is looking for a new immigrant who is an excellent Python programmer... Only problem is I don't speak Dutch. Let's see, I hear New Zealand is nice, and they don't invade hardly anybody. Of course they do subscribe, or at least give lip service to, the War on Drug Users (err, except Alcohol, which kills more people every year than heroin, cocaine, and others combined.) And nicotine. And wait, I forgot caffeine. Errr, where was I?
Our government has very good reasons to have
embargoes on countries that support terrorism.
The day those countries decide to stop their
nonsense, the embargo will go away.
Don't screw it up by helping those that abuse the rights of their own people!!
In that case, I expect you were one of those organising demonstrations when the US were arming Saddam Hussein? Or going against interventions in Middle America? And you're opposed to death penalty, I suppose?
Let's face it - I have yet to see a country with a clean bill when it comes to human rights - and the US is no exception, unfortunately (if it were, I'd know where to find Paradise, maybe...).
Argathin
How can you call Wassenaar an agreement if most of those countries were somehow indecuted to sign that?
Wassenaar, in a second, turned ITAR regulations a worlwide law. And the funny part is that, even when my country has signed that sh*t, US still blocks our acquisitions of Hi-End systems for "security reasons"
Not really. That decision only applied to source code, not binaries. Also, I would bet that the ruling in question will be overturned in the name of "national security" when it goes to the supreme court. Also, internatonal treaties are not subject to judicial review, making the constitutionality of laws enforcing the Wassenaar treaty moot. (IIRC, IANAL, IMHO, and all other abbreviated disclaimers apply)
0 1 - just my two bits
Excuse me? Why would it be American? My first guess would be Finnish, re: Linus Torvaldes. After that it would be hard to categorize.
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
Richard von Weizs
I can't believe this. Every article that tells him how to get around it, or just ignore it a scored high, while those who suggest that dealing with a nation the murders it's own people, horribly mistreats women, is rated low.
Because, as valid as those opinions may be, they're not germane to the subject.
The question wasn't "Am I wrong for working for a company that wants to sell software to Iran?"
Jay (=
I doubt that the US government has the resources or the time to determine the ftp accesses of worldwide linux distributions. I'm not sure how to advise you to proceed, as it may depend on how much you have to deal with the US government.
If in doubt, have them get it, and then have them send a copy of what they got to you.
My $0.02
Apart from the US ITAR regulations you may have a serious problems with the Wassenar (sp?) agreement that has been signed by all of the EU (inc. Austria) and the U.S. The Wassenar agreement regulates "dual use" technology i.e. technology that can be used for military purposes as well as commercial. It is therefore illegal to export certain technologies without a license even from Austria directly. Furthermore, contrary to advice voiced here, giving directions to an ftp site where the software can be downloaded, may in itself be a violation of the Wassenar agreement. This iis because it also covers the export of "information" and "expertise" leading to development or aquisition of technology. I would recommend you speak to the Austrian Dept. of Trade to get a license to export Linux directly. This would solve all your problems (if they give you one)
Good Luck!
Canada is "America" as well, and so is every country "south of the border"...
The insistence in calling their country "America" as if it was the sole occupant of the New World is one of the little nuisances that doesn't contribute to make US citizens any more esteemed around other parts of the continent.
Information wants to be beer, or something like that.
Dude! That's got to be the best post so far in this weird thread!
Too bad so few will appreciate all the irony...
Information wants to be beer, or something like that.
The 10% means 10% means 10%. Not more than 10% of the -product- can be American. It isn't a software law, it's a general law (or if it is a software law, it's a template law where they substituted in 'computer program' for 'automobile' or whatever.)
It's just a whole lot less clear what '10%' means in this context than for say, coffee, or a sweater, or other things that are actually made up of physical -stuff-. If you care enough, check the history of embargoes and rulings made on motorcars, stereos, and so on - 10% of the mass, or 10% of the components, or 10% by component-wise-value. Then try to extrapolate for software, as best you can.
The real answer won't exist until there have been enough court precedents to establish a consistent interpretation, so don't bother looking for it.
--Parity
--Parity
'Card carrying' member of the EFF.
so where is there any info on 50,000 killed after surrender? I say you are full ok sh*t. Point me at some reliable accounts/news stories of this and I might believe you.
First: Some of the previous comments missed the point. This is a serious buissness thing. There are no ways doing something half-legal. The competition will sue you.
Second: Austria is a neutral country. Laws, for example, forbid exporting of weapons to countries involved in a war.
I do not understand, why Austria should be bound to foreign export-rules, especially when this is primaly a conflict between iran and usa.
Sadly Austria accepted some contracts like the Wassenaar-agreement, which (I think) primaly handles the export of dual-use goods. (like cryptographic programs *Grrrr*)
I'm not sure why this or other laws in Austria should forbid the export of anything else into iran. Maybe its a EC thing...?
Arn't there any austrian Lawyers around ?
Linux is definatly more than 10% written by Americans, but that could NEVER be proven, especially since Linux is in no way exclusivly American. You could download Debian from a mirror site that's outside of the US, dodging export laws all together. I'm not extreamly happy about such a thing being exported to Iran, but that isn't my business. So download a copy of your favorite distro from a site outside of the USA and send it along or get your users to download a copy. G'luck.
.
.
aÍÍ©ÍÌÍ£Ì'̽ͩÌÍzÍYÌÍÌY
[shyly raises puny Third-Worlder hand]
A few months ago, the news reached me that people at the CS Department of the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro (UFRJ), here in Brazil, had a working, fully POSIX-compliant UNIX clone for minicomputers, completely Made in Brazil. So there you go.
To the editors: your English is as bad as your Perl. Please go back to grade school.
I don't see why the US government wouldn't try to claim Linux. After all didn't just recently we all learn that Al Gore was the father of the Internet.
In all seriousness though. One of the things that the export laws apply to is things that are sold. Since Linux is given away freely, I'm sure that the export laws can't apply to Linux.
-nuff said
think before you write, it'll save me moderator points.
Rephrase the question. Would you be willing to help out people in need ?
On a more pratical noe,t why would 6 million chinese decide to come to a cold country with a strange language (actually two strange languages)? Include its proximity to the US (home of the xenophobes) and it seems less enticing. My guess is they will go to Hong Kong.
Border restrictions will never be removed as long as stupid greed selfish fscks (read Politicians) are in charge.
Woe be on to them, all who rise against poor people, shall perish in a the end. Buju Banton
Yeah, don't hit airliners, they might have americans on them.
:v)
But blowing up a few buses, hospitals and other public assets somewhere around Europe seems to be fair game. Threatening punitive sanctions agains small countries is apparently OK too.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Vik
In this case, the government is your enemy. Do not bow to the government's regulations. Defy the government. The government is against you.
DES Khaddafi KGB genetic jihad Uzi Rule Psix Qaddafi cryptographic Peking Mossad Legion of Doom Albanian Serbian Saddam
If US code is just code written in the US by anyone then yeah it definitely has more than 10%. If US code means only code that is copyrighted and possibly proprietary, then no I don't think there is over 10%. If there is over 10% then maybe you should suggest FreeBSD, most Linux apps work under it with some minor adjustments ( atleast the ones I've tried ). But since it is freely available, there shouldn't be any problem exporting it since anyone can download it off the internet.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" -- Albert Einstein
...and let them download Linux off the 'net.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
> Joy.. the US trying to impose its will on
> another country. Ain't life grand.
Don't get me wrong, I'm usually one of the first to point out the stupidity of American technology laws. But as far as I know the US Gov't hasn't laid claim to Linux yet, and I predict that they won't even try. To assume that they will is almost as stupid as classifying encryption as munitions.
Rgds,
Mid
I'm an American (US type, to the hilt), I say share the wealth of OSS, SOS, crypto, .... I believe the human rights concepts expressed in the US and many other European Nations Constitutions should be applied to all folks globally. The actions of freely sharing (non-leathal) information and technology will with time destabalize dictator, totalaterian, ethnocentric, and/or zenophobic governments and cultural groups.
...) maybe a subversive war of information and technology sharing will best serve this purpose.
So, do it, and beg forgivness at the international court in Den Haag, because for Linux (and many other technology items) it can not be an exclusive US and/or Europe right/privalege the "next-step" Global Community, UN and international courts all need to sit down and determine directions and rights that exceed US and/or Europe economic clout and bias.
We do not rule the world and we must jointly developy the world and human race (including 3rd world Iran, Saudi, Cuba, Christian, Arab, Jew,
As a final note for "Big-Brother and the Bull Headded Monitors": I would never break the LAWS of any Nation for any reason, BECAUSE at all times I must stay out of trouble. I would not want to get caught breaking a law and go to jail/prison.
The People I like and respect, the government and/or cultural/religious dictators I hate totally.
TIA for all the help you provide to our future. International Stability is in the multi-cultural Union.
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
Every bigoted cultural group and ethnocentric (including America), believe they are morally, spiritually, and ethically better than US fools and others.
To insult the US community by making all US have the same personality qualities is really very funny.
You remind me of that famous standup AMERICAN comic Rush Limbough, he is so frick'en funny.
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
Believe your lies from your government/religion/culture/mother/father/uncle/.. .. That is your God given human right.
However, don't expect many to feed on the dung you spew.
I was there DS/DS I was in Kuwait city the first day the Sadom's followers ran for home. I do know what happened.
I am an American Civilian, putting in communications systems, I carried my own weapons, I would have quickly tried to kill anyone, in my view, to prevent the murder of unarmed Arab civilians and/or soldiers (Including Iraq's). US American would not allow others to kill unarmed soldiers who have surrendered.
I know about 200K of Iraq's soldiers died, but Sadom their leader was the one that put them out there to die, and they did decide to do what he wanted and die rather than fight for the liberty and freedon of their families and friends in Iraq. Don't talk until you kill the person (Sadom) that kills your family and friends.
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
Ok, before this discussion gets out of hand and becomes a country bashing love-in, let me just inform you all that according to the terms of the Wassenaar Arrangement (which I believe is the apparant source of this peculiar requirement), software like GNU/Linux is specifically excluded from the "Dual Use List" (i.e. goods or technologies which can be used for the production of conventional weapons systems as well as other, non-military applications). To quote from the "General Software Note" section on page 3 of [WALIST(98) 1]: The Lists do not control "software" which is either: 1. ... 2. "In the public domain". Hence I believe that none of this applies to a GNU/Linux system, and is therefore not an export problem. IMNSHO. Check here for the gory details. P.S. - Personally, I wouldn't deal with Iran, and I'm a peace-loving Canadian! At least, until the 'Net becomes it's own nationality...
-- People who think they know it all, really annoy those of us who do!
There are several core issues here:
Is the percentage of code measured by number of bytes in the binary, (and compiled for what platform?) the number of bytes of source code, the number of lines of code developed by Americans, or perhaps even by algorithms patented to Americans.
One could develop something in another country based on an algorithm (unfortunately) patented to an American. Would that code be American or not?
This is yet another pathetic attempt by a technically inept government to take absolute control of technology.
#define F(x) int main(){printf(#x,10,#x);}
F(#define F(x) int main(){printf(#x,10,#x);}%cF(%s))
That might be Yet Another Loophole. Open random American-made C file in vi, put caps lock on, lean elbow on 'j' key. Repeat.
ocie> This restriction sounds stupid and totally
ocie> unenforcable.
Of course it's stupid and totally unenforcable! I could carry a printout of the RSA source code across borders (I think), but not a floppy disk containing the source code files. Laws are like operating systems. At first they are crafted wisely and economically. Then, as decades go by, little seemingly-necessary bits get added on. Eventually, the whole system becomes one big nonsensical mess.
"Whatever happened to fair use?"
-- Duff-Man
mass genocide
and that kids, is why there are no more Iraqis... uh, wait a second...
learn to use the right words...
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
So what, it was a freakin' war... the idea is to kill as many of the other side as possible... geez....
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
REALLY hate? Except when it comes to selling them weapons. I guess the margins aren't big enough with Linux.
First of all I don't think you're thinking this all the way through. I'm not saying border restrictions should be removed, I'm saying countries should cease to exist. This implies more than just the border disappearing. It implies an absense of country-wide government, etc. In that situation why would all kinds of Chinese people want to come to a dismal place like Canada anyhow?
Aside from that, I don't expect countries to disappear overnight. I expect it will happen sometime, and that it will be a gradual thing. Countries are becoming increasingly irrelevant because of the 'net. I just expect that trend to continue to the point that countries are no longer relevant so they eventually go the way of the buggy whip.
Personally, I abhor the concept of countries. Because I happened to be born north of an imaginary line in North America I happen to be Canadian.
To me one of the great things about the 'net is that it's essentially countryless. I love the fact that it confuses lawmakers/lawenforcers/taxtakers to no end when a business is registered in Jamaica, is served off a server in Chicago and has customers in the Netherlands.
I would assume that since Linux is not stored centrally anywhere, contains contributions from people around the globe, who may or may not be known/credited, etc. that it's countryless.
Now I imagine the commercial distributions can be tagged as "belonging" to the country in which that business is incorporated... but who knows.
Considering the collateral damage involved in targetting individuals with nuclear weapons. On the other hand, there's a fair amount of collateral damage involved in massive bombing campaigns of any kind directed at specific individuals.
Iranians contribute to the kernel, Iranians have beowulf clusters and Iranians have plenty of options for buying Linux from countries who have the sense to tell the US where to go.
So America may be crippling your business but thats between you and your parliament. You may want to look at moving to another EEC state that is freer ?
Alan
I'm sure that the US government will say that Linux is more than 10% American, regardless of whether it is or not - their position on crypto makes it clear that logic has nothing to do with these policies. I would like to say that you should just tell them to go screw themselves and go for it, but from a business standpoint that might not be so wise. On the other hand, if you tell them where they can download it, and only make suggestions on which distro to get, without actually selling it to them or exporting it yourselves, I don't see how you could get nailed. Be sure that the US government will try to figure out a way to nail you anyway - they REALLY hate the Iranians!
Index to Iranian transactions regulations, 31 CFR pt. 560.
Restriction on reexport to Iran, 31 CFR 560.205, which reads in part:
Exemption for "information," 31 CFR 560.210(c), which reads in part:
Definition of information, 31 CFR 560.315, which reads in part:
Some comments (on my own comment, as /. didn't seem to want to eat the whole thing in one bite):
* Presumably 31 CFR 560.205 is the restriction complained of here. (I don't know for sure why an Austrian company would be bound by this, but one can conjecture: It has an American partner that doesn't want to be hit with a conspiracy-to-evade-export-controls rap; the Austrian company does significant business in the USA, and is therefore prosecutable in the USA; etc.)
* The "10% by value" restriction of 560.205 would seem to exempt "free-beer"-free software from this regulation, as such software would constitute no part of the value of the ultimate product. Or is it not the case that value refers to actual market price -- its ordinary meaning -- in the case of software? (If so, can someone provide a pointer?)
* Presumably the 560.210(c) "information" exception would apply to export of a Linux distribution, assuming that there's nothing in said distro that would run afoul of the general export controls referred to in 560.315(b)(1). (E.g., the distro doesn't have some progam that does 128-bit encryption.)
[Meta-Comment: As noted above, I am by no means an expert on these things -- and anyone seeking to export anything to Iran from the US should absolutely consult a lawyer with expertise in the field -- but it wasn't too hard to find this stuff. If someone tells you about a US law or regulation that irks you, your first move should be to RTFR[SR]P. ("R[SR]P" = relevant statutory or regulatory provisions.) If you can read man pages, you can certainly read code and regs volumes.]
Either way, any middle eastern conflict has been pushed on by the US. In order to keep the military-industrial complex going after the end of the cold war, the big defense conractors had to go with exports to keep up their profits.
Yes, the Iraqi government has carried out a genocidal campaign against Kurds, for which the US fires cruise missles at them every few weeks. However, there is also a large Kurdish population in Turkey. The Turkish government is currently the number one customer of US arms companies, and has been involved in a campaign to eradicate the Kurds from their country just as long as Iraq, only more brutally and completely ignored.
What I'm trying to say is that everyone involved is to blame, and basically every developed nation is involved. The US supplies arms as the media there and everywhere else ignores it as we watch NATO, a "defensive" alliance, invade a nation. Certainly, I cannot support genocide or violence in any form, but to try and blame whichever underdeveloped country that has spent the past 10 years buying guns under US government subsidies is ridiculous - the American economy depends on lucrative weapons contracts, and the government there knows it, which is why they provide subsidies and continue to allow guns to be exported all over the world.
Great counterpoint to the media frenzy over Littleton, huh? Guns are great, as long as no one in the states has one.
Well it isn't really surprising that over 10% of Linux was made in the America - after all, the gnu utilities are far larger than the kernel, much of which was writen in the America anyway.
I can't think of any other systems without American code. But if you mean code from the USA, there are a few. There's QNX, made in Ottowa I think, but it costs big money and isn't Linux compatible. OpenBSD is a wonderful system also, and it has very good Linux emulation. But it's based on US-made NetBSD, so I bet more than 10% of the code is US. Much of FreeBSd was developed in Japan but I doubt it was 90%. Oh yes, RISCos is British, can you use that?
So what OS _do_ they use in Iran? I've no idea, but I bet it's Windows and I bet Micros~1 sells it there. Is there anyone who knows?
I personally would recommend that you export out of Canada or Austria or something - you don't even need to download from a US mirror. It can't be your fault if you get it from a country without these braindead restrictions. Any legal experts 'round here?
How often do companies violate embargoes? I'd imagine a few politically active ones, maybe Apple, would send stuff overseas and ignore (internationally illegal) restrictions. I doubt the FBI would go after you, but you never know...
An appendage to my post above... Response details: Host OS recognized- --- ------- ------- :) 10 18.9%
-------------------------------------------------
* FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD 1 1.9%
* Linux 1.2.xx 1 1.9%
* Linux 1.3.xx, 2.0.0 to 2.0.34 1 1.9%
* Linux 2.0.35 to 2.0.9999
* Solaris 2.x 5 9.4%
* Windows95/98/NT (queso 980922 "Cisco 11.2" error) 11 20.8%
* Windows 95/98/NT 24 45.3%
----------- ----- -----
++checksums 53 100.0% From the Internet Operating System Counter.
GO LINUX!!!
In the interest of disclosure, I should note that there were 32 unrecognized hosts, most of which gave valid responses. These are obviously the secret IranOS that controls missile-guidance systems, nuclear submarines and an army of cyborg robots marching toward the US.
Anyone want to smurf 'em?
Of course stopping the Soviet Union from getting too much power was as a large bit of the US motivation. But the Soviet Union is no more. The US stands alone with the power to enforce their will over most nations. And the US still support and commit atrocities.
There's no risk of a "Communist revolution" in Turkey. The Kurdish people who get their villages blasted to rubbles are no Soviet agents. And still the US choose not to utter a word of protest. Still the US make big bucks selling weapons that are used for killing innocents.
The democratic government of Guatemala before 1954 was not a communist one. Though it favoured the poor people at the cost of US company United Fruit. And so the US had the government overthrown and installed a regime which would torment the people of Guatemala for decades with its death squads. With the direct participation of the CIA. That is profit at the cost of human lives.
You should also keep in mind that often the supposed "victims" of these oppressive, militaristic regimes are just as oppressive and militaristic in their own right (the guerillas, or insurgents, or rebels, or whatever, not the innocent civilians who inevitably end up getting killed by BOTH sides in such conflicts)
Exactly. And the people sent to the Gulags were all counter-revolutionaries threatening the peoples revolution, remember? Just mention something about "communist guerilla" to the CNN, and your death squads can work undisturbed. We must at all cost keep the commies out, even if that means supporting a dictator. (And often a dictator that manages to keep the people from complaining about their poverty and gladly working for big foreign companies exploiting their natural resources and cheap labour. And of course a dictator that spends a large part of the nations money at arms manufactured in the US)
To chalk up all of the US's interests to sheer economic greed is absurd though.
If is isn't greed, then what is it? Sheer evil? Ignorance? Unloading a bit of the huge amount of weaponry you have no room for? Greed seems pretty likely to me.
We GIVE more money in aid and support than we could ever GET from many of these countries.
Really? Go compare your the numbers for the US foreign aid (and please, do not include aid in the form of weapons) with some UN statistics of how much most third world countries are paying in interest for loans that have already been paid many times over. Loans that were spent on weapons to keep the people opressed and the economies 'open'. Also compare it with the profits of some US based multinational companies. And not to mention the profits from selling wheat to often starving nations. The US is not losing money over all this.
Oh, just for fun, stick into the comparison the money spent so far on bombing what's left of Jugoslavia in your peacekeeping attempts.
Of course stopping the Soviet Union from getting too much power was as a large bit of the US motivation. But the Soviet Union is no more. The US stands alone with the power to enforce their will over most nations. And the US still support and commit atrocities.
There's no risk of a "Communist revolution" in Turkey. The Kurdish people who get their villages blasted to rubbles are no Soviet agents. And still the US choose not to utter a word of protest. Still the US make big bucks selling weapons that are used for killing innocents.
The democratic government of Guatemala before 1954 was not a communist one. Though it favoured the poor people at the cost of US company United Fruit. And so the US had the government overthrown and installed a regime which would torment the people of Guatemala for decades with its death squads. With the direct participation of the CIA. That is profit at the cost of human lives.
You should also keep in mind that often the supposed "victims" of these oppressive, militaristic regimes are just as oppressive and militaristic in their own right (the guerillas, or insurgents, or rebels, or whatever, not the innocent civilians who inevitably end up getting killed by BOTH sides in such conflicts)
Exactly. And the people sent to the Gulags were all counter-revolutionaries threatening the peoples revolution, remember? Just mention something about "communist guerilla" to the CNN, and your death squads can work undisturbed. We must at all cost keep the commies out, even if that means supporting a dictator. (And often a dictator that manages to keep the people from complaining about their poverty and gladly working for big foreign companies exploiting their natural resources and cheap labour. And of course a dictator that spends a large part of the nations money at arms manufactured in the US)
To chalk up all of the US's interests to sheer economic greed is absurd though.
If is isn't greed, then what is it? Sheer evil? Ignorance? Unloading a bit of the huge amount of weaponry you have no room for? Greed seems pretty likely to me.
We GIVE more money in aid and support than we could ever GET from many of these countries.
Really? Go compare your the numbers for the US foreign aid (and please, do not include aid in the form of weapons) with some UN statistics of how much most third world countries are paying in interest for loans that have already been paid many times over. Loans that were spent on weapons to keep the people opressed and the economies 'open'. Also compare it with the profits of some US based multinational companies. And not to mention the profits from selling wheat to often starving nations. The US is not losing money over all this.
Oh, just for fun, stick into the comparison the money spent so far on bombing what's left of Jugoslavia in your peacekeeping attempts.
I would like to point out a few things first...
Iran and Iraq's *governments* had a war in the 80s. During which time, the US sold bombs and weaponds to Iraq which were used to murder the citizens of Iran. In the late 80, early 90s, Iraq fell out of favor for some reason or another, and now they are being bombed by the US (to fulful the US's need to maintain a war economy, but thats another posting...).
Short is this... the actions of a Country represent the actions of a government which do not necessarly represent the wishes and desires of the citizens, espeically in a country which does not have representitive government (although considering how indivdual lobbiests can cause laws which inconvience many others, how is that "represensitive"?)
So, why do I care? Well it just so happens that my girlfriend is from Iran. She calls herself "Persian" because that is what she is. She speaks persian, and soon so will I. Furthermore, during her 5th grade she didn't go to school because Tehran was being bombed by Iran using bombs designed and made by the United States, sold to Iraq, even though the United States knew full well that there were to be used on civilians. Innocent civilians.
Now, is my girlfriend a terrorist? I dare anyone to say so... I would be rather upset I think. Of course not. Are there terrorists from Iran? Yes. Are there terrorists from US? HELL yeah. What about that guy who was shooting abortion doctors? He's a terrorist. Does the US engage in international terrorism? It's hard to tell, because news is hardly objective... But the US's actions certainly seem terroristic at times.
Another thing, like the Beasty boys say, not everyone from Iran is a terrorist. Because of the Koran/Islam and because of other religions, some people feel they are religiously supported when they use violence to solve a problem. But its not a knock against those religions, because need we recall the crusades? The Spanish inquision? I don't need to continue I think.
Another thing, in that region, there is not very much space. Countries fight over the space available, the rights to extract minerals and oil, and religious issues. However, its not the *people* fighting. If you are a mother/wife, would you want your love to go off and fight an unnecessary war and die? I don't think so.
I wish the US would stop vilifying those countries... there are bad things about them, but don't over-villify things. Even the people in Iran don't like the governmental controlls, but hey, if you dissent, you are shot. So change is hard to institute.
And for all you americans reading this, I hope I can change your mind. I never thought much about Iran/Iraq and all of that stuff except as emotional-less thereotical political science issues, but it becomes so much more real when the one I love was the target of my neighbour's bombs. And when she suffers discrimination due to unfair negative portrayal of Persian/Iranians by the US to satisify some obscure lame political goal. These are *PEOPLE*... no different then you mom/wife/SO/etc. I encourage any of you working for defense contracters to review your position...
(he who feels sadness for war)
Actually, due to the Wassenaar Arrangement ( http://www.wassenaar.org), 32 countries have agreed to enforce the same export restrictions on encryption as the US. The agreement was signed sometime late in 1998.
Somehow this didn't get very much attention in the mainstream medias here in Norway, but due to this we got funny situations like the Opera web browser suddenly being on the weapons export list.
It's great that the us governments word is law, not only in the us, but all over the world. Too bad the rest of us don't have the right to vote there though.
Slightly off-topic, but anyway..
How would selling tons of deodorant go against America's ideals? From my perspective any moral, ideal, belief, is quickly traded for a couple billion bucks. Money, IMO, is America's ideal. Not mine of course, but then again, I don't run the place.
+&x
*/Rant on
As an American I think I can speak freely on this issue. I don't hate Iranians or Iraqis or pretty much anybody (in fact I am friends with several ex-Iranians, not a racist comment, those people escaped Iran and now live free here due to help from religious organizations). I do agree with my gov't. however that some things that people in the middle east do are morally wrong and digusting to me. I would disapprove of any company helping them and then finding out that technology or software or widget was used to blow people up, poison people or attack innocents.
I don't get to personnally approve of every law or blockade my gov't. arranges, but I can vote against the decision makers in the next election. *HINT* They know this and are always looking over their shoulder to see if the people approve. I would like to see the day that EVERY individual has this power.
I'm sure that some in the US gov't are sorry that the old DARPANET ever took off and grew to the Internet we all know and contribute to today. The Internet now gives people voice who previously had none. More Americans and people of other nations now have an outlet for FREEDOM of SPEECH, creativity, and an easy way to contact those in power. Thus the Internet is a GOOD thing.
Don't screw it up by helping those that abuse the rights of their own people!!--Somewhere there is a village missing an idiot.
I hope that Alan was somply pointing out to an idiot flamer that the US has some dirty washing as well and not just Iran (or any other place).
I still remember when a Ship of the US navy went into Iranian waters (when the US was not in the conflict) looking to cause trouble, got worried when a plane appeared and shot it down. It was a civilian airbus on a scheduled flight.
The Lockerbie Libyans should be put on trial but what about the half-witted cowboy in charge then.
Does it not count because it was a middle-eastern airline? To my eternal shame, I wish it had been an american plane. The 3rd world war nearly started when KAL007 was shot down over Russia but this one was shot down over Iran.
Sorry - my gripe but some of things that went on under Reagan were terrorist acts and to name an airport after him is obscene.
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
Just don't bill for it and the question is closed. As far as I know (my company has also this agreement with the U.S., but not Spain at a whole) the (dis)agreement only talks about "sell" something to IRAQ.
I think that's a stupid law too. Governments must do her bussines without trying to blackmail with his citizen's rights.
============================================
Uh.. neither Spanish
The US courts have held that the term public domain as something that can be used by all with no, or near no, restrictions. Parks are in the public domain. GPL'ed software can be considered in the public domain also since the author, although retaining the ©, has said "here do what ya want with it but make sure I get credit for it".
RB
After a quick search I found the following Austrian regulations that may apply to the export of software and storage mediums containing software.
*) Exports to Iraq and Yugoslavia
Those two countries are currently on the UNOs shit-list and all trade with them is forbidden. There are only a few exceptions for medical stuff. This shouldn't concern you.
*) The Austrian Aussenhandelsgesetz (AHG)
This law is the base-law for most of those pesky permits.
One interesting point is right at the beginning in the definition of technology (Paragraph 1.2):
Technology (which may be subjected to export limitations) is technical know-how recorded on storage media of any kind, which is not generally available.
As LINUX is generally available, it seems not to be technology and therefore not subjected to this law.
*) The Dual Use Goods list
There is also a list with product which can be also used for military purposes. Here we find an exemption for goods with a value of less than ATS 11500 ($1000). As Linux is free and a storage medium used for export should be availble for less than that, this regulation shouldn't apply either.
*) Pornographical Material
There are some EU restrictions on exporting porn. Considering how some people drool over Linux, this may pose a problem. You'd better check that out.
A few tactics that worked well in the past in similar cases are:
*) Don't sell Linux as part of the package, just sell the support for the installation etc. If they need the software, be generous and give it to your customer as gift, download it, find it on the street, whatever.
*) Bundle it with your system or software and calculate the percentage by value. The value of the disk with linux shouldn't exceed 10% ot the value of the whole system.
If you still have problems with the ministry, try to find out exactly which regulation they apply
and check if it is really relevant. Often the people at the ministry have no idea what the whole thing is about. Then hit them with a chorus chanting the mantra 'Linux is generally available and has a monetary value of less than $39.90'.
I whish you good luck!
johi
The GPL does not recognise trade embargoes. The GPL does not support information hoarding.
I feel we should be looking at this the other way around-- Not, "Can we distribute software in light of US regulations?" but, "Is the US government attempting to violate the license?" That is, are they trying to restrict access to GPL'd software. This regulation does seem to restrict access to GPL'd software, and so we simply cannot recognise it.
By the same token, people have suggested perhaps it would be better not to offer software to certain countries for political reasons. We do not have that option. Free Software is Free Software, and you can't restrict anyone's access to it, ever.
YOU may not legally be allowed to export it, but there are a number of distributors outside the US which are not bound by the stupid American export laws. So, worst comes to worst, if you can't (or don't wish to) jump through the hoops of obtaining an export permit for Linux, have somebody else export it to Iran.
(I am a proud Canadian who regularly, legally enjoys good Cuban cigars!)
The author retains copyright to his work, and licenses others to use it, distribute it and modify it under certain conditions.
that the Americans were screaming bloody murder when a private American plane was shot down in Cuban airspace because it refused to stop distributing American propaganda...
The United States has NO position of moral authority on this issue. This government has repeatedly supported oppressive dictatorships, so long as they were perceived as fascist rather than communist.
The American government suppressed information about the Holocaust and encouraged xenophobia until they absolutely had to become involved in WWII.
Do you really expect us to believe that the average Cuban would be better off if Batista (whom the Americans ardently supported) still held the reins of power in that country?
To suggest that the Americans are in ANY position to pass moral judgement on other nations is to ignore the history of this nation.
I personally don't export software to an embargoed country. I do, however, have a problem with the United States meddling with the trade policies and other politics of sovereign nations in a hypocritical manner. The United States is and has been more than willing to support tyrannical dictatorial regimes (such as Batista's, Iraq, China in the early to mid '80s) if they suit their needs. It shocks me to see so many people of any nationality supporting this level of hypocrisy.
As for embassies, you must be confused... There have been a few protests at government buildings against the Serbian bombings, and the occasional protest at the American embassies. However, I'm unaware of any rioting, rock throwing or bombing related to this issue in this country.
The point is - it's not for you, and it's not for your government to determine my morals. I have a hard enough time with my own government attempting to dictate morality. I DON'T want a government I'm not under the jurisdiction of to do the same damned thing.
GPL'ing your program doesn't change the copyright at all.
You mean the holocaust is not a case of mass genocide?
Mass genocide does not imply that a whole people has been killed. Simple.
Either go shoeless, or let Nike ditch Jordan.
Since Linus Torvalds created Linux, legally it is his to do as he pleases and he is from Finland. However since he GPL'ed the kernal, it falls under American copyright laws and International copyright law.
Go ahead and export to Iran. Americans do not solely create international laws or have the monopoly on what is right.
Romanes eunt domus? People called Romanes, they go the 'ouse? It says Romans go home. No it doesn't. What's Latin fo
sometimes the stupidity of the US government just astounds me, especially when it comes to anything that deals with computer technology. i wonder if any of the lawmakers have ever even used a computer. hell ill set up an ftp and let the iranians have linux and any other software they want, just to prove a point that the law is stupid!!!!
> ERROR: IEXPLORE caused an invalid page fault in module MSCONV97.DLL at 0137:01212d19. Stack dumped:
But since the US crypto laws were declared unconstitional, doesn't that make the wessimar agreement a moot point?
...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
Joy.. the US trying to impose its will on another country. Ain't life grand.
But in reality, it probably doesn't matter. From what I remember, a group in Iran has produced some of the best Beowulf supercomputing/clustering software. So, obviously, they already have Linux and the US Government can just go cry in the corner.
In conclusion, if worst comes to worst, find out what distro is already comonly available in Iran, and build your software to that distro, then just odn't include the distro and tell 'em what to use.
Regards,
Strider
...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
or whatever it became called . . .
like, uhhh, yeah, thats why ollie north sold em arms, huh?
hipocracy - the greatest luxury
ooops, I fell for it, still . . . its fun
x.x = -1 no, your just imagining it . . .
You know, I hope you're not as misguided as this post appears......The US government hasn't the faintest idea how to behave as a responsible nation. The rampant nationalism and bully-boy tactics of the government(notice I said the GOVERNMENT!) are something reminiscent of one of the nastier fascist dictatorships, just with better PR. Who died and made the US the world morality judge??
_______________________ I am the eggman, wooo! _______________________
I don't think American export laws should be applicable to this. Why? Perhaps more than 10% of code was written in the United States. But is it 'American?' I would argue that under gnu, the US can't claim any sort of ownership: it's 'owned' just as much by Europeans just as much as by Americans. The U.S. government may disagree, but I think a distribution made in Germany like SuSE is ultimately outside of their jurisdiction.
The problem, however, is that US (and other countries) have laws that treat software like physical property. It isn't, and eventually law will have to deal with this. Obviously, there isn't a clear precedent for this. The US and Iran may have different opinions on what the law should be, based on their concerns as nation-states, but linux itself is not national. It crosses national boundaries because it is information. Whatever the law may be, an Iranian can download linux distributions without penalty from the internet. The US government is powerless to stop this, whatever its laws may say.
Ultimately, there will be some sort of conflict, a legal battle or something more, between the interests of capitalistic nation-states and the non-national, non-money based systems of information contained in phenomena like linux. The western world cannot, at present, deal with free software.
There are a lot of good suggestions for your your problem here. I'm sure that you'll be able to find a solution, although I'm not sure that the US government will like what's going on, whatever you do.
> why would you want to do business with people that
/(GNU\/)?Linux/ when producing chemical weapons (not that I think they'd care much about the license anyway?)
;)
> want to design, make and worse yet, USE chemical weapons and other biological warfare devices?
Interestingly enough, the Debian Free Software Guidelines (for example) stipulate that you cannot discriminate against fields of endeavour, so in principle these people could use
Some of the CERN libraries have a clause in their license that says that the library in question cannot be used in any kind of military research, and this actually makes the library non-free in the DFSG sense.
Of course, it doesn't answer your question. Sorry
--- Premature complacency is the evil of all roots
Does that law mean 10% of the copyrighted code?
Seems to me that since no one really 'owns' the linux kernel (correct me if i'm wrong, as i tend to be that way), it can't be regulated by nationality laws.
I would assume that long as you used a non-commercial version of linux, a loophole in the export laws is there for exploiting (not that i'm a lawyer or anything).
Cheers.
Josh
You asked to be corrected if you're wrong. :) You are. All of the code (or at least very nearly all of it) is owned by someone; otherwise, there could be no enforceable copyright on it. We all seem to agree that Linux is in fact copyrighted and licensed under the terms of the GPL, so obviously someone (possibly many someones) owns it.
Now, exactly who owns it, I don't know. Not an easy question to answer at all.
The other question that I have about this 10% American code restriction is whether they consider the citizenship of the original author, or the citizenship of the current copyright owner, or what. I'm not sufficiently motivated to actually go find this regulation, but I'm willing to bet it's whichever makes for the larger percentage. :)
For all you people who think you can evade this 10% restriction by imbedding the code in a gigabyte of garbage, may I point out 31 C.F.R. 560.203?
Also, shipping the goods from the United States to some other country, with the understanding that individuals in that country will then ship them to Iran, is also illegal. See U.S. v. Ehsan, 163 F.3d 855 (4th Cir. 1998).
I must say that I'm surprised to hear that Austrian companies are so hard up for business that they would do business with the likes of IRAN/IRAQ and friends.
I say why bother? Who cares about the American export law, why would you want to do business with people that want to design, make and worse yet, USE chemical weapons and other biological warfare devices?
-=Redir