" The guy didn't know but he did say that I "obviously can't download 24/7, as I have to share"."
Well there you go, further evidence that NTL doesn't have good support. No offense to the guy you talked to but he obviously didn't have a fucking clue!
"Not once have NTL ever told me I can download as much as my connection can handle - if they had I would have called them liars."
Nor did they say that you could not download as much as your connection could handle, and it is more reasonable to assume that you can download as much as you like than you have to be careful not to download too much.
"Having sex does make you a better person. It makes you more relaxed and more pleasant to be around."
YOU ARE SO FUCKING WRONG! YOU ARE ETH IDIOT! I HATE YOU DO YOU HEAR ME? I HATE YOU! SHUT THE FUCK UP ALREADY! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!
graspee
Please try to keep posts on topic. Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)
"downloading DirectX SDKs or Linux distros or any of that."
I resemble that remark!;)
"when their actions were causing the other 95% of people to suffer."
Please don't see this the way NTL want you to see it- it makes it look like the "evil" bandwidth hogs are "ruining it" for everyone else. They're not- contention ratios already divide out the bandwidth fairly. In any case, if they want to limit people they should do it at their end- the burden of staying within the limits shouldn't be on the user- it should be impossible to break those download limits in the same way as it is impossible (without uncapping modems) to break bandwidth limits. But, oh, guess what, it would NTL real money to monitor and log everyone's useage so they don't bother...
"I think it's perfectly fair to say if you want service above and beyond what the majority want you should expect to pay more for it."
"What? To me the whole point of broadband is speed. It's an upgrade from a 56k to a faster connection, "
Well, you have to admit that most popular websites will be the same speed on broadband as they are on dial-up, especially if you already have the navigation images etc. cached.
You say that we used to download 50MB game demos and it took 2 hours, now we download a 200MB game demo and it takes 2 hours- and ask where is the added value. Well, the added value is that game demos have become bigger, and if you're still on dial-up then it will take you a lot longer than it used to getting those game demos.
But mainly, yes, it's all about p2p. I've never used p2p over dial-up, but those who have say that basically all your bandwidth goes on the overhead of the protocol, so you download things at about 0.1K/s. Ouch.
You say that broadband means you can get the same things faster, and that if you're getting bigger things then you haven't graduated from narrowband, but you have because NOW YOU'RE GETTING BIGGER THINGS (!).
You use the example of game demos, but as I have pointed out, since they have gotten bigger anyway, you are seing an improvement over if you'd kept dial-up. And bigger things are better.
If you consider, instead of game demos (which have got bigger anyway), a better example: linux distros. These have always been big- now you can download them quite quickly, whereas with dial-up an iso would tie up your phone line for about 24 hours.
I know this post is rambling and disorganized, and for that I apologize. I do see your point of view- when on dial-up we are frustrated by our lack of speed, and when we get broadband, if we do the same things there will be much joy and speed.
Unfortunately, as with most things in the computer world us power-users will always expand to fill the available space. Now it's so fast to download small things we must download GREAT BIG HUGE THINGS all the time.
We then moan that downloading GREAT BIG HUGE THINGS is slow.
Then of course we get a faster connection again, and instead of downloading GREAT BIG HUGE THINGS really fast, we think, "Hey! Now I can download ABSOLUTELY GIGANTIC CYCLOPEAN THINGS!"
"Well, cool then. Drive 'em out of business. Drive up the costs for everybody else.
It's very neighborly of you to do so."
This is exactly the attitude they want people to have. They are turning the "normal" (read light) users of the system against the heavy users of the system by portraying them as bad, wrong, evil, bandwidth-stealing evil people who "ruin it for everyone else". This is QUITE SIMPLY A LOAD OF BOLLOCKS.
"Drop your BT phone line - replace it with GSM. Drop your BT adsl - get cable or wireless."
There is no cable or wireless available for where I live- ADSL is the only option, and they are all basically re-sellers of BT so if BT impose limits, they will all have to.
" it gives the ISP the right to terminate the connection for a variety of reasons, one of which is adversely affecting the service of other users"
LISTEN THE HELL UP!
There is already a contention ratio which divides the bandwidth between users- if people merely using the proportion of the bandwidth currently available to them breaks NTL's precious fucking business plan then guess what - THEIR BUSINESS PLAN WAS FLAWED.
" Remember BT anytime used to have the advert use the internet anytime whenever you want, well now its bt anytime 150 hours per month. I hear tell limits for bt openworld adsl are in teh piple line too.:-("
I got kicked off their so-called "unlimited" dial-up package for being connected for "more than 16 hours a day". They said that if you had the internet on for more than 16 hours continuously then it was obviously "unattended useage".
So BT were telling me how long I could sit at my computer for now? They recommended I switch to their ADSL, so I did.
If they then impose limits on that then I will be forced to take drastic action.
" NTL are merely saying that there comes a point when you're taking the piss"
No there doesn't. They sold you the bandwidth as unlimited, now they are limiting it. This whole "1GB a day should be more than enough for anyone" reminds me a hell of a lot of some mythic supposed quote by BillG.
" unless you are a frigen warez kiddie this is not a problem for people who get on the computer surf for a while and upload a few files/download a few files."
Then you don't need broadband.
The only reason that the companies get away with overselling their bandwidth is because most people are too uninformed to know that they don't need broadband for light web surfing and email.
"You're an uninformed language bigot who really needs crawl out of the basement and try to get laid."
He may be an uninformed language bigot, but your reference to his living in a basement and the idea that having sex somehow makes you a better person reflects badly on you. Too bad- you were doing ok up until that point.
I think you were a bit quick off the mark- the post I was disagreeing with was advocating a tax on internet useage. I couldn't care less about a sales tax on internet shopping because I am from the UK and we have always had to pay sales tax on everything we buy, whether on the internet or not.
"If you have a problem with this proposition, you should be fighting the entire tax system"
I tried fighting The Entire Tax System once but it was immune to non-enchanted weapons, regenerated, had 2000 hit points and was Shadowy (-4 to hit).
" Like most people, I enjoy using the Internet on a daily basis but consider it a luxury I could live without. Taxing Internet access makes more sense than taxing phones or food or other staples of life because it is generally the well-off that can afford access to it."
Fuck that- you can't just tax something because you think that it's only well-off people who can afford it,
a) because it's not true- I'm unemployed and instead of going out drinking, clubbing etc I have broadband. It's my only non-essential expenditure. (I don't buy clothes).
b) If a government needs more money and thinks it fair to tax the rich more, then just hike up income tax. You can't just say "oh I think rich people are the ones who go skiing so let's tax skiing..." (Actually I think rich people should pay more in taxes- but with a flat rate of income tax- not the way we have in the uk).
"The net started as a fringe activity among geeks, and should have *stayed* a fringe activity among geeks. Imagine if we had kept it secret: no spam, no taxes, no newbies"
Imagine! We'd all be using dial-up which would cost us by the minute to use, p2p would not exist (or there would be a hell of a lot fewer people sharing files), there wouldn't be great news sites like the bbc on the internet, when you applied for a job and said you'd email them your cv you'd get a blank look, newly-released pc games would not have multiplayer over the internet options ETC ETC ETC.
The basic thing is- especially if you are being serious rather than trolling, is that although we now have spam, big businesses on the internet and other insane things, we do have a lot of advantages that we wouldn't otherwise have had.
Back when the www started I used to go out to our university's terminal room and see if anything had changed "on the world wide web". It was possibly to check a large percentage of the www and then go, "oh, nothing's been updated".
And don't even try to force me back to the pre-www days when I thought that downloading a weather picture over the internet that I couldn't even see until I sent it to the laser printer was COOL...
So I have a new idea- we get all the parents of the children you're referring to, and your good self, and put them in this large room. We tell the parents what you suggested regarding their children.
Then we see after a while who has "fallen accidentally" in the pit of spikes.
Slashdot Mirror
" The guy didn't know but he did say that I "obviously can't download 24/7, as I have to share"."
Well there you go, further evidence that NTL doesn't have good support. No offense to the guy you talked to but he obviously didn't have a fucking clue!
graspee
"Not once have NTL ever told me I can download as much as my connection can handle - if they had I would have called them liars."
Nor did they say that you could not download as much as your connection could handle, and it is more reasonable to assume that you can download as much as you like than you have to be careful not to download too much.
graspee
"Having sex does make you a better person. It makes you more relaxed and more pleasant to be around."
YOU ARE SO FUCKING WRONG! YOU ARE ETH IDIOT! I HATE YOU DO YOU HEAR ME? I HATE YOU! SHUT THE FUCK UP ALREADY! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!
graspee
Please try to keep posts on topic.
Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads.
Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said.
Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about.
Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)
"downloading DirectX SDKs or Linux distros or any of that."
;)
I resemble that remark!
"when their actions were causing the other 95% of people to suffer."
Please don't see this the way NTL want you to see it- it makes it look like the "evil" bandwidth hogs are "ruining it" for everyone else. They're not- contention ratios already divide out the bandwidth fairly. In any case, if they want to limit people they should do it at their end- the burden of staying within the limits shouldn't be on the user- it should be impossible to break those download limits in the same way as it is impossible (without uncapping modems) to break bandwidth limits. But, oh, guess what, it would NTL real money to monitor and log everyone's useage so they don't bother...
"I think it's perfectly fair to say if you want service above and beyond what the majority want you should expect to pay more for it."
But they're not offering such a service.
graspee
"What? To me the whole point of broadband is speed. It's an upgrade from a 56k to a faster connection, "
Well, you have to admit that most popular websites will be the same speed on broadband as they are on dial-up, especially if you already have the navigation images etc. cached.
You say that we used to download 50MB game demos and it took 2 hours, now we download a 200MB game demo and it takes 2 hours- and ask where is the added value. Well, the added value is that game demos have become bigger, and if you're still on dial-up then it will take you a lot longer than it used to getting those game demos.
But mainly, yes, it's all about p2p. I've never used p2p over dial-up, but those who have say that basically all your bandwidth goes on the overhead of the protocol, so you download things at about 0.1K/s. Ouch.
You say that broadband means you can get the same things faster, and that if you're getting bigger things then you haven't graduated from narrowband, but you have because NOW YOU'RE GETTING BIGGER THINGS (!).
You use the example of game demos, but as I have pointed out, since they have gotten bigger anyway, you are seing an improvement over if you'd kept dial-up. And bigger things are better.
If you consider, instead of game demos (which have got bigger anyway), a better example: linux distros. These have always been big- now you can download them quite quickly, whereas with dial-up an iso would tie up your phone line for about 24 hours.
I know this post is rambling and disorganized, and for that I apologize. I do see your point of view- when on dial-up we are frustrated by our lack of speed, and when we get broadband, if we do the same things there will be much joy and speed.
Unfortunately, as with most things in the computer world us power-users will always expand to fill the available space. Now it's so fast to download small things we must download GREAT BIG HUGE THINGS all the time.
We then moan that downloading GREAT BIG HUGE THINGS is slow.
Then of course we get a faster connection again, and instead of downloading GREAT BIG HUGE THINGS really fast, we think, "Hey! Now I can download ABSOLUTELY GIGANTIC CYCLOPEAN THINGS!"
And so it goes on...
graspee
"Well, cool then. Drive 'em out of business. Drive up the costs for everybody else.
It's very neighborly of you to do so."
This is exactly the attitude they want people to have. They are turning the "normal" (read light) users of the system against the heavy users of the system by portraying them as bad, wrong, evil, bandwidth-stealing evil people who "ruin it for everyone else". This is QUITE SIMPLY A LOAD OF BOLLOCKS.
graspee
"so what was this "drastic" action that you're gonna take, then?"
I wouldn't like to say for fear I may incriminate myself.
graspee
"Drop your BT phone line - replace it with GSM. Drop your BT adsl - get cable or wireless."
There is no cable or wireless available for where I live- ADSL is the only option, and they are all basically re-sellers of BT so if BT impose limits, they will all have to.
graspee
" it gives the ISP the right to terminate the connection for a variety of reasons, one of which is adversely affecting the service of other users"
LISTEN THE HELL UP!
There is already a contention ratio which divides the bandwidth between users- if people merely using the proportion of the bandwidth currently available to them breaks NTL's precious fucking business plan then guess what - THEIR BUSINESS PLAN WAS FLAWED.
graspee
" Remember BT anytime used to have the advert use the internet anytime whenever you want, well now its bt anytime 150 hours per month. :-("
I hear tell limits for bt openworld adsl are in teh piple line too.
I got kicked off their so-called "unlimited" dial-up package for being connected for "more than 16 hours a day". They said that if you had the internet on for more than 16 hours continuously then it was obviously "unattended useage".
So BT were telling me how long I could sit at my computer for now? They recommended I switch to their ADSL, so I did.
If they then impose limits on that then I will be forced to take drastic action.
graspee
From NTL's web site www.ntlhome.com: (cut and pasted just this minute), referring to their broadband packages, emphasis mine:
" Low flat fee
Unlimited surfing so you don't have to worry about high call charges"
graspee
" NTL are merely saying that there comes a point when you're taking the piss"
No there doesn't. They sold you the bandwidth as unlimited, now they are limiting it. This whole "1GB a day should be more than enough for anyone" reminds me a hell of a lot of some mythic supposed quote by BillG.
graspee
" unless you are a frigen warez kiddie this is not a problem for people who get on the computer surf for a while and upload a few files/download a few files."
Then you don't need broadband.
The only reason that the companies get away with overselling their bandwidth is because most people are too uninformed to know that they don't need broadband for light web surfing and email.
graspee
"Oh you pussy dong.
I was about to refute your point, but I find I like being called that. Thanks!"
Well it sure beats "pussy face", especially when commanded to go to someone's ass.
graspee
" I guess that would make them lotophagi?"
I think the Ancient Greek plural you are searching for is "lotophagoi" - "Lotus Eaters".
graspee
"You're an uninformed language bigot who really needs crawl out of the basement and try to get laid."
He may be an uninformed language bigot, but your reference to his living in a basement and the idea that having sex somehow makes you a better person reflects badly on you. Too bad- you were doing ok up until that point.
graspee
I think you were a bit quick off the mark- the post I was disagreeing with was advocating a tax on internet useage. I couldn't care less about a sales tax on internet shopping because I am from the UK and we have always had to pay sales tax on everything we buy, whether on the internet or not.
"If you have a problem with this proposition, you should be fighting the entire tax system"
I tried fighting The Entire Tax System once but it was immune to non-enchanted weapons, regenerated, had 2000 hit points and was Shadowy (-4 to hit).
graspee
" Like most people, I enjoy using the Internet on a daily basis but consider it a luxury I could live without. Taxing Internet access makes more sense than taxing phones or food or other staples of life because it is generally the well-off that can afford access to it."
Fuck that- you can't just tax something because you think that it's only well-off people who can afford it,
a) because it's not true- I'm unemployed and instead of going out drinking, clubbing etc I have broadband. It's my only non-essential expenditure. (I don't buy clothes).
b) If a government needs more money and thinks it fair to tax the rich more, then just hike up income tax. You can't just say "oh I think rich people are the ones who go skiing so let's tax skiing..." (Actually I think rich people should pay more in taxes- but with a flat rate of income tax- not the way we have in the uk).
LEAVE THE INTERNET ALONE
graspee
"The net started as a fringe activity among geeks, and should have *stayed* a fringe activity among geeks. Imagine if we had kept it secret: no spam, no taxes, no newbies"
Imagine! We'd all be using dial-up which would cost us by the minute to use, p2p would not exist (or there would be a hell of a lot fewer people sharing files), there wouldn't be great news sites like the bbc on the internet, when you applied for a job and said you'd email them your cv you'd get a blank look, newly-released pc games would not have multiplayer over the internet options ETC ETC ETC.
The basic thing is- especially if you are being serious rather than trolling, is that although we now have spam, big businesses on the internet and other insane things, we do have a lot of advantages that we wouldn't otherwise have had.
Back when the www started I used to go out to our university's terminal room and see if anything had changed "on the world wide web". It was possibly to check a large percentage of the www and then go, "oh, nothing's been updated".
And don't even try to force me back to the pre-www days when I thought that downloading a weather picture over the internet that I couldn't even see until I sent it to the laser printer was COOL...
graspee
So I have a new idea- we get all the parents of the children you're referring to, and your good self, and put them in this large room. We tell the parents what you suggested regarding their children.
Then we see after a while who has "fallen accidentally" in the pit of spikes.
graspee
The version of gcc for dos: DJGPP had a DOS extender and 32-bit support but it was slower than Watcom by a large amount.
graspee
Back in the days of DOS, if you were a developer, the Watcom C compiler was *the* thing to pirate.
graspee
You're right- I apologize.
graspee
Hey, if you read the story you will find that there is a new twist to it - as in why the caps failed.
graspee
Great- more broken stories not to be able to post on. What a rarity- seeing 2 stories on the front page with no comments.
graspee