I think you're both wrong. I mean, I think you're correct in what you say, but I think the OP was essentially right on when s/he said "if you put Linux on a machine and don't explain the difference between it and Windows, you're asking for trouble." It's a different system working under different paradigms. There's certainly no lack of quality software in the Debian repositories, far from it. But it's a paradigm that most people simply have no exposure to and need explained to them, slowly and in words of one and two syllables. Once you do that, they tend to roll on with very few problems.
Wine is well on its way to being that solution. Things like Crossover are leading the way for people like you who are addicted to the whole "I must install software off a CD that I paid $60 for or it can't possibly be worthwhile" mentality. Not that I condone that, but I understand that crack's hard to quit and some people need a halfway house to get there. I do wish you the best of luck in your journey to recovery.
So let me get this straight. Plain vanilla install of (let's say) Windows XP, plug in a USB printer, a USB camera, a PCI wireless card, and a PCI TV tuner. You want to try to tell me that all those work with no further interaction on your part? No discs, no driver hunts, nothing. Plug and go. If that's what you're trying to tell me, I call bullshit.
Re:Nope, it's the putative new users problem
on
Linux Needs Critics
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· Score: 1
Video cards and wireless stuff are probably one of the most common peripherals for the average user.
Yes, and in five years we've gone from "plug and pray" to "shit works with vanishingly few exceptions." Video cards = dealt with, except for Nvidia. Completely. Wireless cards = Damn near dealt with except for a few Broadcom chipsets (am I missing anything? I may be, I don't claim to be infallible here). I'm not going to claim 100% compatibility with everything under the sun, but I'll say 95%, and the other 5% is Real Soon Now.
We can do a battle of the anecdotes if you like, but for every one item you can say doesn't work out of the box with Linux, I can give you five of the same kind of peripheral that won't work at all on Vista no matter how much you pull your hair out over it. And the trends are even more telling. Linux supports more hardware every day, while every time MSFT changes the driver model in Windows, they lose hardware that used to work. Honestly, 1998 called and wants its talking point back.
For the average user, if it doesn't work by plugging it in, then its not compatible because they don't have the knowledge to get it to work. Its not that their lazy, its just they don't know how to do it.
Really? Because I'm not aware of anything more complex than a USB thumb drive that works that way with Windows. That's just ridiculous on its face.
If someone who hasn't used Linux is having a problem, then *thats* the problem you need to solve. Its almost as if a decent portion of Linux users/developers just cater solutions to themselves and not to people who are new to the OS. Its almost as if they really don't care its not simple enough for the average user to use and yes, that would imply elitism.
Yeah, I'm aware of that. Actually I sell and support Linux desktops and laptops for home users. To try to hang the word "elitist" on me is just beyond laughable. I mean, Christ. I work with Suzie Soccer Mom, Holly Hairstylist, and Frankie Flight Attendant (names changed, occupations real).
I hear the range, believe me. I work almost universally with people who are new to Linux. I get a lot of interface comments, a lot of "how to" stuff. Hardware compatibility is nowhere near the top five things I hear. Not even close. I mean, maybe I'm just absurdly lucky every day and everyone else is having these horrible problems except me and all my customers and all my friends, but I really just don't think that's true.
So I guess you can keep calling me an elitist, and I'll keep working on real problems that my paying customers bring me. Like how to print from IE running in Crossover Office (anyone?)...
Re:Nope, it's the putative new users problem
on
Linux Needs Critics
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· Score: 1
I stick it into MyWeirdOS and it works okay, and I can use it just fine.
Great.
But then you come and claim I'm stupid for using MyWeirdOS and I should switch to YourSuperiorOS which is so much greater.
No I didn't. (But silently, I thought it, because you are.)
Then I try switching to YourSuperiorOS and it doesn't work. Then I ask, what to do about it and you tell me to discard my (working) TV card and buy a different one.
No I didn't. I told you to do your damn homework before making an electronics purchase. Not my problem if you don't.
So I just go back to MyWeirdOS and continue using it there.
Cool.
It's not -my- problem any more. I'm mostly satisfied with what I have and I don't give a shit about anyone claiming YourSuperiorOS is better. I consider them liars and ignore them.
Fine.
It is -your- problem that I don't trust you and consider you a liar
No it's not.
that you want me to use your OS
No I don't. What possible benefit would I derive from that?
and I refuse to do so, that you try to convince others and I tell them my little story about the TV card and they don't follow you.
Actually, if you use this tone of voice with them, they'll probably think you're an over-defensive prick and ignore you. At least, that's where I'm at.
I don't care that LittleGuyPCI CEO is allergic to YourSuperiorOS and you just can't get the required specs. It's not my problem - I have MyWeirdOS and just _don't care_. Neither do I care that it's not your fault.
Okay.
But YOU care
No, really I don't.
that I give you a bad name because I say your OS sucks whenever asked about it. It is YOUR problem.
No you don't. You sound like a jerkoff. It's totally your problem.
Maybe, just maybe, the problem is in your universally claiming YourSuperiorOS is ultimately and unconditionally superior to MyWeirdOS while in fact it may be better in certain situations, but when it comes to a LittleGuyPCI hardware, it sucks a big time?
Users don't care whose fault it is that something doesn't work. "If X+Y works and X+Z doesn't, Y is better than Z." They don't care about Z's excuses that it's X and Y's conspiracy.
After coming to the end of this absolutely insipid stream of keyboard vomit, I have come to the conclusion that you either:
Either way, I don't really think I can help you here, but hopefully at least some other people can see your post and think to themselves "god damn, I don't ever want to be that guy."
Thank you for that meaningless anecdote. If you were to buy a computer (any computer) and put Windows on it (yourself, that is), you'd have a hell of a lot more than just one something that doesn't work.
Re:Nope, it's the putative new users problem
on
Linux Needs Critics
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· Score: 1
Very much a different ballgame. Different development model, and coincidentally your example shows why the Linux driver model is the right one. As Joe GadgetMaker the hardware vendor, you only need to write one driver one time, and it gets maintained forever with no additional effort on your part. Do you see the difference here?
Re:Nope, it's the putative new users problem
on
Linux Needs Critics
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· Score: 1
the problem that I'm saying the developers should address (even if its not their fault) is this: Person A has a 3 boxes, Windows, Mac, and some Linux distro. They put the card in the Windows box and it works. They put the card in the Mac box and it works. They put the card in the Linux box and lo and behold, it doesn't work.
I just don't think that scenario's very realistic. Linux supports more hardware than both of those other guys put together, and more every moment of every damn day. There's some problem children, sure. Nvidia cards spring to mind, the fuckers. Some wireless chipsets, although fewer all the time, it's amazing how fast that's happened. And work proceeds as always. But to say that's "the reason" that Linux doesn't dominate the marketplace or whatever is obtuse and a decade behind the times.
I'm going to ignore the second and more childish paragraph of your posting. But seriously, bandying about words like "elitist" and "obstruction" don't really lend you much credibility and mostly make you sound like a whiner.
Re:Nope, it's the putative new users problem
on
Linux Needs Critics
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· Score: 1
Well put. And I have a theory about how to bridge that gap. It's a two-pronged attack.
1. More people selling Linux, top to bottom, from Dell on down to Joe Schmoe PC Repair of Podunk, Iowa. Professionals work out the kinks, Linux get put in more people's hands and they enjoy it and they have positive experiences with it and they see that shit does pretty much Just Work. And then when they buy some piece of iTrash that doesn't work with it, it'll be "goddamn iTrash" instead of "goddamn Linux." This is an ambitious program. The next part's easier.
2. Keep doing what free software has always been great at: turning n00bs into geeks. One person that's passionate about what's loaded on their machine is worth fifty Joe Users who use it because they bought it. This idea is what's been winning it for us so far (and make no mistake, we are winning). I expect it'll carry the day.
Re:Nope, it's the putative new users problem
on
Linux Needs Critics
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· Score: 4, Insightful
Like the guy said, its *not* the developer's fault but it *IS* their problem.
No it's not. That kind of absurd expectation (that every piece of hardware in the world will work flawlessly, despite the apathy and even animosity of manufacturers) is put on no one else, because it's ridiculous.
Look, it's like this. You buy a doodad, let's say a TV card, from LittleGuyPCI Inc. Try to stick it in your Windows box, it doesn't work. "Goddamn LittleGuy!" Try to stick it in your Mac, it doesn't work. "Goddamn LittleGuy!" Try to stick it in your Linux box, it doesn't work. "Goddamn Linux!"
Now of course, merely by saying something like this in the open, it's a good chance I'll be branded a Linux heretic. Maybe even a slew of nasty downmods will come my way. After all, criticisms like these are part of the whole "not in front of the goyim" mentality of Linux users whenever there are non-Linux users about.
No, but by having a closing paragraph like this, there is a very good chance that you will be branded a troll.
Hmm. I was thinking to myself "how the hell is this on-topic at all?" and it occurred to me. Linux does kind of lack credible critics. All we get are trolls like this saying the same tired shit over and over again. But boy, do we get them in great big carload lots.
On the other side if the latest Windows would be totally incompatible with your 2.5 year old machine people would complain a lot.
Funny you should mention that. The latest version of Windows is incompatible with people's 2.5 year old machines. People have in fact been complaining.
As I said if the tables were turned and Linux held the same market share FOR THE DESKTOP there is no doubt that it would be in the same boat that Windows is with regards to viruses and malware.
I know what you said. You're wrong. You don't have anything to back this up with, you're just making bald assertions and saying "there's no doubt." Well, there's no doubt that you're full of shit.
Nobody in their right mind chooses between, say, Fedora and Ubuntu on the basis of their package management system
WTF? I certainly do. It's a hell of a lot easier to find a third-party.deb than.rpm. Fewer and fewer people are packaging.rpms, while Launchpad ppas are sprouting like weeds. Yes, it's a factor in decision-making.
(Note: I'm not arguing the technical merits of the package formats here, simply the practical convenience of being able to find software you want in a native format. Yes, I know I'm getting into a chicken/egg debate here.)
I keep hearing this old canard, and it still doesn't make any sense. All the real data, the valuable stuff, credit card numbers, server logs, all that stuff that malware authors would presumably want to get their hands on, lives on Linux servers. Saying that malware authors don't bother with Linux because it's not lucrative enough is like saying you'd rather have 5 thousand dimes than 5 $1000 bills.
Oh, and also. If you're trying to somehow claim that it's "not Microsoft's fault" that their flagship product is an insecure virus-ridden mess, then you're nuts. Windows boxen get pwnt because they're easy. Make any excuses you want to make, that's really all there is to it.
And yet, despite all the 'Vista sucks!' being thrown around, it didn't slow down adoption at all. And most people liked it. And Vista already has three times the users as OS X does. Disclaimer: I use Ubuntu at home, and at work we're still using XP and will be for the foreseeable future.
I guess I'm one of those guys who you would assume "just knows," but really I often don't. I've been using Linux for seven years, doing it for a living for three, and I'd still put myself in the wide pool labeled "intermediate." But FWIW, here's the "secrets" I know. Prepare to not have your mind blown.
It's more about problem-solving skills than rote knowledge. If you ignore everything else I say, remember this one, it's the key to the whole thing.
There are books, and some of them are good (I really recommend this one and this one) but for the most part, the internet is "the book." Learn to use it. To start with, a good search pattern is [four or five word synopsis of problem OR pasted error message] [name of distribution]. Sometimes you'll get a bunch of old crap in the search results in which case you may want to put the version number of the distro at the end. 95% of the time that's your book.
Fuck all this "spare machine play-around box" nonsense. You want to learn? Fucking learn. Use it every day. When you can't figure out how to do something you want to do, go figure it out. Don't take no for an answer. Figure it out.
Related to that last, as a rookie I know that often I would run into a situation where I (rightly or wrongly) thought "omg, I screwed everything up, I should just reinstall and start over!" Resist this temptation as much as you can. Do it the hard way.
Set up a simple home file server using that spare box. Once you've accomplished this, come up with other stuff to do with it.
Figure out how to use your printer from the command line. That'll keep you busy.
Really, the unifying theme here is that it's more about learning the problem-solving methods. Set arbitrary tasks for yourself for no good reason and figure them out. Pick something you already know how to do with a GUI and figure out how to do it in the shell. Read read read. Those two books I linked above are excellent.
And don't let it scare you. If you don't let yourself get pysched out, it's pretty easy stuff.
Wow, not me. At all. I definitely know more Linux users than Mac users. And non-geeks at that. I do a lot of work with various activist groups, and in the last three years or so, Linux has exploded there. A lot of meetings I go to have more people taking notes on their Linux laptop than Apple and Windows put together. These are non-techie social activist groups.
Now I'm obviously not saying this is a representative sample of "society at large," but I am saying that here is a non-geek market where Linux is not only present, but dominant. Make of this what you will.
Slashdot Mirror
I think you're both wrong. I mean, I think you're correct in what you say, but I think the OP was essentially right on when s/he said "if you put Linux on a machine and don't explain the difference between it and Windows, you're asking for trouble." It's a different system working under different paradigms. There's certainly no lack of quality software in the Debian repositories, far from it. But it's a paradigm that most people simply have no exposure to and need explained to them, slowly and in words of one and two syllables. Once you do that, they tend to roll on with very few problems.
Wine is well on its way to being that solution. Things like Crossover are leading the way for people like you who are addicted to the whole "I must install software off a CD that I paid $60 for or it can't possibly be worthwhile" mentality. Not that I condone that, but I understand that crack's hard to quit and some people need a halfway house to get there. I do wish you the best of luck in your journey to recovery.
How's that market share going
Growing. Geometrically. All the time. Thanks for asking.
Are you talking about this?
So let me get this straight. Plain vanilla install of (let's say) Windows XP, plug in a USB printer, a USB camera, a PCI wireless card, and a PCI TV tuner. You want to try to tell me that all those work with no further interaction on your part? No discs, no driver hunts, nothing. Plug and go. If that's what you're trying to tell me, I call bullshit.
Video cards and wireless stuff are probably one of the most common peripherals for the average user.
Yes, and in five years we've gone from "plug and pray" to "shit works with vanishingly few exceptions." Video cards = dealt with, except for Nvidia. Completely. Wireless cards = Damn near dealt with except for a few Broadcom chipsets (am I missing anything? I may be, I don't claim to be infallible here). I'm not going to claim 100% compatibility with everything under the sun, but I'll say 95%, and the other 5% is Real Soon Now.
We can do a battle of the anecdotes if you like, but for every one item you can say doesn't work out of the box with Linux, I can give you five of the same kind of peripheral that won't work at all on Vista no matter how much you pull your hair out over it. And the trends are even more telling. Linux supports more hardware every day, while every time MSFT changes the driver model in Windows, they lose hardware that used to work. Honestly, 1998 called and wants its talking point back.
For the average user, if it doesn't work by plugging it in, then its not compatible because they don't have the knowledge to get it to work. Its not that their lazy, its just they don't know how to do it.
Really? Because I'm not aware of anything more complex than a USB thumb drive that works that way with Windows. That's just ridiculous on its face.
If someone who hasn't used Linux is having a problem, then *thats* the problem you need to solve. Its almost as if a decent portion of Linux users/developers just cater solutions to themselves and not to people who are new to the OS. Its almost as if they really don't care its not simple enough for the average user to use and yes, that would imply elitism.
Yeah, I'm aware of that. Actually I sell and support Linux desktops and laptops for home users. To try to hang the word "elitist" on me is just beyond laughable. I mean, Christ. I work with Suzie Soccer Mom, Holly Hairstylist, and Frankie Flight Attendant (names changed, occupations real).
I hear the range, believe me. I work almost universally with people who are new to Linux. I get a lot of interface comments, a lot of "how to" stuff. Hardware compatibility is nowhere near the top five things I hear. Not even close. I mean, maybe I'm just absurdly lucky every day and everyone else is having these horrible problems except me and all my customers and all my friends, but I really just don't think that's true.
So I guess you can keep calling me an elitist, and I'll keep working on real problems that my paying customers bring me. Like how to print from IE running in Crossover Office (anyone?)...
I stick it into MyWeirdOS and it works okay, and I can use it just fine.
Great.
But then you come and claim I'm stupid for using MyWeirdOS and I should switch to YourSuperiorOS which is so much greater.
No I didn't. (But silently, I thought it, because you are.)
Then I try switching to YourSuperiorOS and it doesn't work. Then I ask, what to do about it and you tell me to discard my (working) TV card and buy a different one.
No I didn't. I told you to do your damn homework before making an electronics purchase. Not my problem if you don't.
So I just go back to MyWeirdOS and continue using it there.
Cool.
It's not -my- problem any more. I'm mostly satisfied with what I have and I don't give a shit about anyone claiming YourSuperiorOS is better. I consider them liars and ignore them.
Fine.
It is -your- problem that I don't trust you and consider you a liar
No it's not.
that you want me to use your OS
No I don't. What possible benefit would I derive from that?
and I refuse to do so, that you try to convince others and I tell them my little story about the TV card and they don't follow you.
Actually, if you use this tone of voice with them, they'll probably think you're an over-defensive prick and ignore you. At least, that's where I'm at.
I don't care that LittleGuyPCI CEO is allergic to YourSuperiorOS and you just can't get the required specs. It's not my problem - I have MyWeirdOS and just _don't care_. Neither do I care that it's not your fault.
Okay.
But YOU care
No, really I don't.
that I give you a bad name because I say your OS sucks whenever asked about it. It is YOUR problem.
No you don't. You sound like a jerkoff. It's totally your problem.
Maybe, just maybe, the problem is in your universally claiming YourSuperiorOS is ultimately and unconditionally superior to MyWeirdOS while in fact it may be better in certain situations, but when it comes to a LittleGuyPCI hardware, it sucks a big time?
Users don't care whose fault it is that something doesn't work.
"If X+Y works and X+Z doesn't, Y is better than Z."
They don't care about Z's excuses that it's X and Y's conspiracy.
After coming to the end of this absolutely insipid stream of keyboard vomit, I have come to the conclusion that you either:
A. Are a troll
OR
B. Have Stockholm syndrome regarding your computer.
Either way, I don't really think I can help you here, but hopefully at least some other people can see your post and think to themselves "god damn, I don't ever want to be that guy."
Thank you for that meaningless anecdote. If you were to buy a computer (any computer) and put Windows on it (yourself, that is), you'd have a hell of a lot more than just one something that doesn't work.
Very much a different ballgame. Different development model, and coincidentally your example shows why the Linux driver model is the right one. As Joe GadgetMaker the hardware vendor, you only need to write one driver one time, and it gets maintained forever with no additional effort on your part. Do you see the difference here?
the problem that I'm saying the developers should address (even if its not their fault) is this: Person A has a 3 boxes, Windows, Mac, and some Linux distro. They put the card in the Windows box and it works. They put the card in the Mac box and it works. They put the card in the Linux box and lo and behold, it doesn't work.
I just don't think that scenario's very realistic. Linux supports more hardware than both of those other guys put together, and more every moment of every damn day. There's some problem children, sure. Nvidia cards spring to mind, the fuckers. Some wireless chipsets, although fewer all the time, it's amazing how fast that's happened. And work proceeds as always. But to say that's "the reason" that Linux doesn't dominate the marketplace or whatever is obtuse and a decade behind the times.
I'm going to ignore the second and more childish paragraph of your posting. But seriously, bandying about words like "elitist" and "obstruction" don't really lend you much credibility and mostly make you sound like a whiner.
Well put. And I have a theory about how to bridge that gap. It's a two-pronged attack.
1. More people selling Linux, top to bottom, from Dell on down to Joe Schmoe PC Repair of Podunk, Iowa. Professionals work out the kinks, Linux get put in more people's hands and they enjoy it and they have positive experiences with it and they see that shit does pretty much Just Work. And then when they buy some piece of iTrash that doesn't work with it, it'll be "goddamn iTrash" instead of "goddamn Linux." This is an ambitious program. The next part's easier.
2. Keep doing what free software has always been great at: turning n00bs into geeks. One person that's passionate about what's loaded on their machine is worth fifty Joe Users who use it because they bought it. This idea is what's been winning it for us so far (and make no mistake, we are winning). I expect it'll carry the day.
Like the guy said, its *not* the developer's fault but it *IS* their problem.
No it's not. That kind of absurd expectation (that every piece of hardware in the world will work flawlessly, despite the apathy and even animosity of manufacturers) is put on no one else, because it's ridiculous.
Look, it's like this. You buy a doodad, let's say a TV card, from LittleGuyPCI Inc. Try to stick it in your Windows box, it doesn't work. "Goddamn LittleGuy!" Try to stick it in your Mac, it doesn't work. "Goddamn LittleGuy!" Try to stick it in your Linux box, it doesn't work. "Goddamn Linux!"
Do you see a disconnect there anywhere?
(I wrote a whole reply, but I ated it.)
Now of course, merely by saying something like this in the open, it's a good chance I'll be branded a Linux heretic. Maybe even a slew of nasty downmods will come my way. After all, criticisms like these are part of the whole "not in front of the goyim" mentality of Linux users whenever there are non-Linux users about.
No, but by having a closing paragraph like this, there is a very good chance that you will be branded a troll.
Hmm. I was thinking to myself "how the hell is this on-topic at all?" and it occurred to me. Linux does kind of lack credible critics. All we get are trolls like this saying the same tired shit over and over again. But boy, do we get them in great big carload lots.
That's nice. PC World is full of horseshit. Have you seen Vista on a machine with 1GB of memory and a 1Ghz processor? Really?
On the other side if the latest Windows would be totally incompatible with your 2.5 year old machine people would complain a lot.
Funny you should mention that. The latest version of Windows is incompatible with people's 2.5 year old machines. People have in fact been complaining.
IMHO nothing's as good as Klipper, but I like Parcellite when I'm using Fluxbox.
Touche :)
As I said if the tables were turned and Linux held the same market share FOR THE DESKTOP there is no doubt that it would be in the same boat that Windows is with regards to viruses and malware.
I know what you said. You're wrong. You don't have anything to back this up with, you're just making bald assertions and saying "there's no doubt." Well, there's no doubt that you're full of shit.
Nobody in their right mind chooses between, say, Fedora and Ubuntu on the basis of their package management system
WTF? I certainly do. It's a hell of a lot easier to find a third-party .deb than .rpm. Fewer and fewer people are packaging .rpms, while Launchpad ppas are sprouting like weeds. Yes, it's a factor in decision-making.
(Note: I'm not arguing the technical merits of the package formats here, simply the practical convenience of being able to find software you want in a native format. Yes, I know I'm getting into a chicken/egg debate here.)
I keep hearing this old canard, and it still doesn't make any sense. All the real data, the valuable stuff, credit card numbers, server logs, all that stuff that malware authors would presumably want to get their hands on, lives on Linux servers. Saying that malware authors don't bother with Linux because it's not lucrative enough is like saying you'd rather have 5 thousand dimes than 5 $1000 bills.
Oh, and also. If you're trying to somehow claim that it's "not Microsoft's fault" that their flagship product is an insecure virus-ridden mess, then you're nuts. Windows boxen get pwnt because they're easy. Make any excuses you want to make, that's really all there is to it.
Mod parent up. I am so stealing this quote.
And yet, despite all the 'Vista sucks!' being thrown around, it didn't slow down adoption at all. And most people liked it. And Vista already has three times the users as OS X does.
Disclaimer: I use Ubuntu at home, and at work we're still using XP and will be for the foreseeable future.
Yes it did. No they didn't. So what. And so what.
And me without my mod points. Good post.
I guess I'm one of those guys who you would assume "just knows," but really I often don't. I've been using Linux for seven years, doing it for a living for three, and I'd still put myself in the wide pool labeled "intermediate." But FWIW, here's the "secrets" I know. Prepare to not have your mind blown.
It's more about problem-solving skills than rote knowledge. If you ignore everything else I say, remember this one, it's the key to the whole thing.
There are books, and some of them are good (I really recommend this one and this one) but for the most part, the internet is "the book." Learn to use it. To start with, a good search pattern is [four or five word synopsis of problem OR pasted error message] [name of distribution]. Sometimes you'll get a bunch of old crap in the search results in which case you may want to put the version number of the distro at the end. 95% of the time that's your book.
Fuck all this "spare machine play-around box" nonsense. You want to learn? Fucking learn. Use it every day. When you can't figure out how to do something you want to do, go figure it out. Don't take no for an answer. Figure it out.
Related to that last, as a rookie I know that often I would run into a situation where I (rightly or wrongly) thought "omg, I screwed everything up, I should just reinstall and start over!" Resist this temptation as much as you can. Do it the hard way.
Set up a simple home file server using that spare box. Once you've accomplished this, come up with other stuff to do with it.
Figure out how to use your printer from the command line. That'll keep you busy.
Really, the unifying theme here is that it's more about learning the problem-solving methods. Set arbitrary tasks for yourself for no good reason and figure them out. Pick something you already know how to do with a GUI and figure out how to do it in the shell. Read read read. Those two books I linked above are excellent.
And don't let it scare you. If you don't let yourself get pysched out, it's pretty easy stuff.
Have fun, and godspeed.
Wow, not me. At all. I definitely know more Linux users than Mac users. And non-geeks at that. I do a lot of work with various activist groups, and in the last three years or so, Linux has exploded there. A lot of meetings I go to have more people taking notes on their Linux laptop than Apple and Windows put together. These are non-techie social activist groups.
Now I'm obviously not saying this is a representative sample of "society at large," but I am saying that here is a non-geek market where Linux is not only present, but dominant. Make of this what you will.