Users seem to putter around for years in Gnome without ever noticing...
I agree with this wholeheartedly.
They're in the habit of buying it in a store, or on amazon, and they expect it to cost money.
I don't know that I agree with this. I think most Windows users (at least the Windows users that are able to install new software, which is by no means all of them) are quite used to scouring the internet for freeware applications. And furthermore, it's way more of a pain in the ass to do that for Windows than Linux. But this is tangential to the topic, and I'm not trying to start a debate on this point.
Synaptic doesn't exactly advertise itself very well, either.
Agreed again. I think part of the problem is that Ubuntu doesn't use debtags, which renders Add/Remove mostly useless. Also, Synaptic has telephone book syndrome (you can't find what you're looking for unless you already know what you're looking for).
I'd be very interested to hear ideas on how to do this better.
It's never gonna happen, and it won't even matter if it does. No one's gonna switch operating systems just to run the same application suite. I mean, WTF, am I the first person to have that idea?
Instead of playing catchup we need to make our system more compelling than the competition's offering (now, for my needs it already is, but YMMV). That's all there is to it.
Of course, Vista and 7 tried to be a $500 way of running Windows apps, while XP was a $100 way of running Windows apps. And compared to XP, Vista also needed $400 worth of hardware.
And that's exactly why Vista is a ruinous failure, and why 7 will be.
God damn people, we have been over this and over this. It's against the law in America. Yeah, that's dumb. Write your congresscritter. It's a bug in the legal system, not the operating system.
The performance of the GUI (what the article is talking about) has absolutely *nothing* to do with the appearance of the GUI (what the people who didn't read the damn article are talking about.) Nothing. At all.
Ah yes, OS X. That's the one with the ever-morphing top bar, the "I don't need to tell you whether that program is running, Dave" dock, and support for half a mouse? Yeah, I've heard great things.
Ah yes, "the damn sound!" I bet if you just scoot on over to Launchpad and report that they'll get right on your "the damn sound" driver problem for you.
Well lucky for you I do still have a Windows '98 disc lying around here somewhere! Of course, it's been pressed into service as a coaster for eight years or so, so it's a little scratched up, but some Windex will probably clean that sucker right up!
the fact that WinXP, a damned near decade old OS, can suck up so much of the Netbook market away from Linux simply shows me how far Linux has to go before getting mainstream acceptance
So you consider the "XP on netbooks" phenomenon to be indicative of a failure on Linux's part, rather than the usual sketchy business relationships between Microsoft and the OEM community? I find that analysis... interesting.
Even when they do a comparison shop, it comes down to convenience, not just price.
Indeed. I wanted to conveniently attach my device to any computer, anywhere, any time. My Linux desktop and laptop, my girlfriend's Linux desktop and Mac laptop, my friend's WinXP desktop, my sister's Vista (yech) laptop. And you can bet your ass I didn't buy an iPod.
Most people aren't savvy enough to understand how to copy and paste mp3 files to a USB storage device, or how to buy music online without using itunes (or even rip a CD without itunes). People pay the premium (Apple tax) not because they're pretentious fanboys (well, some do), but rather they believe Apple's products are the easiest and most convenient to use.
I'm sorry, are you seriously trying to suggest that iTunes is simpler than copying a file? Really?
That's ridiculous. Let's compare the real processes.
Windows --- Drive to Best Buy Find the software aisle (hard as hell at the Best Buy by my house) Find a blueshirt (god forbid you do this before step 2, if so, lose a turn and go back three spaces) Explain to them that you don't want to buy a camera Bring your $500 software purchase to the register Lose a turn Explain to the cashier that you don't want to sign up for a Best Buy card Pay, go home Install five different programs from five CDs with five registration keys and probably an online registration or two. Lose three turns. Find the program you want to use in the unholy mess of a Start menu Get to work. Total time: Like a year
Ubuntu --- Oh, they're already installed? Get to work. Total time: 0
I'm a home support freelancer, and buddy let me tell you something. Just because you're not doing the work doesn't mean it's not happening. Really, I'd say retail is probably the worst perspective from which to judge this. By which I mean no offense at all, I'm just saying that I'd assume you probably never see the bulk of those machines again after they leave the store. I do.
As an aside, I'd like to see some real numbers re: customers jumping ship altogether (to Apple or Linux, whatever). I'd bet it's a hell of a lot higher than most anybody seems to think.
The statistics and commentary I've seen regarding this are murky at best and don't point to any one cause. Are you talking about the ones that shipped with non-working wifi and webcams? Yeah, of course those are getting returned. The ones that shipped with that horrible Xandros interface that everyone hates so much? Yeah, those might be getting returned too. And even the rate of return seems to be in dispute depending on who you believe. I'm not saying I have the answers or know the whys and wherefores, because I don't, but I don't think you do either unless you work in CS for Asus or Dell. To make the blanket statement that "Linux laptops aren't popular because they're unfamiliar and people don't want to learn a new interface" seems very disingenuous to me.
Oh, you're so witty with the sarcasm. How about this? It's a $10 pocketbook, or you can download the pdf for free. It covers everything I typically cover in my personal sessions and a lot more. I just bought up a bunch of them last month, and they're selling well. I imagine if you put an icon for the pdf on a new user's desktop 95% of the time you could just cut them loose.
But this is really beside the point. My point is that I deal with these folks every day, it's how I pay the rent. And they're not as dumb as you seem to think they are.
That's just not true. I sell Linux machines, and I've got happy customers all over town. If you put an unfamiliar machine in someone's hands and give them no training and no help, yeah, they're gonna hate it. That's why I don't use OSX, for instance. I'm sure it's nice, but I don't know it and the interface just makes no sense to me. But give someone twenty minutes of Q&A and they'll typically go their merry way.
I have no idea what Visio is, and I work in tech. I am vaguely aware of what Visual Studio is, mostly through secondhand stuff people say here on Slashdot. Again, I work in tech. So, you were saying something about names?
Slashdot Mirror
Users seem to putter around for years in Gnome without ever noticing...
I agree with this wholeheartedly.
They're in the habit of buying it in a store, or on amazon, and they expect it to cost money.
I don't know that I agree with this. I think most Windows users (at least the Windows users that are able to install new software, which is by no means all of them) are quite used to scouring the internet for freeware applications. And furthermore, it's way more of a pain in the ass to do that for Windows than Linux. But this is tangential to the topic, and I'm not trying to start a debate on this point.
Synaptic doesn't exactly advertise itself very well, either.
Agreed again. I think part of the problem is that Ubuntu doesn't use debtags, which renders Add/Remove mostly useless. Also, Synaptic has telephone book syndrome (you can't find what you're looking for unless you already know what you're looking for).
I'd be very interested to hear ideas on how to do this better.
It's never gonna happen, and it won't even matter if it does. No one's gonna switch operating systems just to run the same application suite. I mean, WTF, am I the first person to have that idea?
Instead of playing catchup we need to make our system more compelling than the competition's offering (now, for my needs it already is, but YMMV). That's all there is to it.
Of course, Vista and 7 tried to be a $500 way of running Windows apps, while XP was a $100 way of running Windows apps. And compared to XP, Vista also needed $400 worth of hardware.
And that's exactly why Vista is a ruinous failure, and why 7 will be.
I was busy fighting dinosaurs, you insensitive clod!
God damn people, we have been over this and over this. It's against the law in America. Yeah, that's dumb. Write your congresscritter. It's a bug in the legal system, not the operating system.
The performance of the GUI (what the article is talking about) has absolutely *nothing* to do with the appearance of the GUI (what the people who didn't read the damn article are talking about.) Nothing. At all.
Found some typos there.
Ah yes, OS X. That's the one with the ever-morphing top bar, the "I don't need to tell you whether that program is running, Dave" dock, and support for half a mouse? Yeah, I've heard great things.
Ah yes, "the damn sound!" I bet if you just scoot on over to Launchpad and report that they'll get right on your "the damn sound" driver problem for you.
Fucking puke. I would sooner tear out my eyeballs with a tea strainer.
Flash? it's always flash. I bet the other page is running flash. Flash sucks.
Fixed that. I think you accidentally hit ctrl-v in the middle there or something.
/sigh
My sarcasm is totally wasted on you people.
Yeah, too bad they don't include any other themes, or any way to change it. Someone should look into that.
Well lucky for you I do still have a Windows '98 disc lying around here somewhere! Of course, it's been pressed into service as a coaster for eight years or so, so it's a little scratched up, but some Windex will probably clean that sucker right up!
the fact that WinXP, a damned near decade old OS, can suck up so much of the Netbook market away from Linux simply shows me how far Linux has to go before getting mainstream acceptance
So you consider the "XP on netbooks" phenomenon to be indicative of a failure on Linux's part, rather than the usual sketchy business relationships between Microsoft and the OEM community? I find that analysis... interesting.
Even when they do a comparison shop, it comes down to convenience, not just price.
Indeed. I wanted to conveniently attach my device to any computer, anywhere, any time. My Linux desktop and laptop, my girlfriend's Linux desktop and Mac laptop, my friend's WinXP desktop, my sister's Vista (yech) laptop. And you can bet your ass I didn't buy an iPod.
Most people aren't savvy enough to understand how to copy and paste mp3 files to a USB storage device, or how to buy music online without using itunes (or even rip a CD without itunes). People pay the premium (Apple tax) not because they're pretentious fanboys (well, some do), but rather they believe Apple's products are the easiest and most convenient to use.
I'm sorry, are you seriously trying to suggest that iTunes is simpler than copying a file? Really?
That's ridiculous. Let's compare the real processes.
Windows
---
Drive to Best Buy
Find the software aisle (hard as hell at the Best Buy by my house)
Find a blueshirt (god forbid you do this before step 2, if so, lose a turn and go back three spaces)
Explain to them that you don't want to buy a camera
Bring your $500 software purchase to the register
Lose a turn
Explain to the cashier that you don't want to sign up for a Best Buy card
Pay, go home
Install five different programs from five CDs with five registration keys and probably an online registration or two.
Lose three turns.
Find the program you want to use in the unholy mess of a Start menu
Get to work.
Total time: Like a year
Ubuntu
---
Oh, they're already installed?
Get to work.
Total time: 0
We all know you can't put a Playstation game in a Wii. Can we please move on.
I'm a home support freelancer, and buddy let me tell you something. Just because you're not doing the work doesn't mean it's not happening. Really, I'd say retail is probably the worst perspective from which to judge this. By which I mean no offense at all, I'm just saying that I'd assume you probably never see the bulk of those machines again after they leave the store. I do.
As an aside, I'd like to see some real numbers re: customers jumping ship altogether (to Apple or Linux, whatever). I'd bet it's a hell of a lot higher than most anybody seems to think.
So what? GP said "[Vista] is also a reason for wider Linux adoption." Are you disputing that, and if so, how?
I'd mod you up if I had points. AoE 1-3 were all great games, and still up there in my all-time favorites. I still play them.
[citation badly needed]
The statistics and commentary I've seen regarding this are murky at best and don't point to any one cause. Are you talking about the ones that shipped with non-working wifi and webcams? Yeah, of course those are getting returned. The ones that shipped with that horrible Xandros interface that everyone hates so much? Yeah, those might be getting returned too. And even the rate of return seems to be in dispute depending on who you believe. I'm not saying I have the answers or know the whys and wherefores, because I don't, but I don't think you do either unless you work in CS for Asus or Dell. To make the blanket statement that "Linux laptops aren't popular because they're unfamiliar and people don't want to learn a new interface" seems very disingenuous to me.
Oh, you're so witty with the sarcasm. How about this? It's a $10 pocketbook, or you can download the pdf for free. It covers everything I typically cover in my personal sessions and a lot more. I just bought up a bunch of them last month, and they're selling well. I imagine if you put an icon for the pdf on a new user's desktop 95% of the time you could just cut them loose.
But this is really beside the point. My point is that I deal with these folks every day, it's how I pay the rent. And they're not as dumb as you seem to think they are.
That's just not true. I sell Linux machines, and I've got happy customers all over town. If you put an unfamiliar machine in someone's hands and give them no training and no help, yeah, they're gonna hate it. That's why I don't use OSX, for instance. I'm sure it's nice, but I don't know it and the interface just makes no sense to me. But give someone twenty minutes of Q&A and they'll typically go their merry way.
So you want to rename Firefox "Internet?" GTFO.
I have no idea what Visio is, and I work in tech. I am vaguely aware of what Visual Studio is, mostly through secondhand stuff people say here on Slashdot. Again, I work in tech. So, you were saying something about names?